Jeremy Crawford on travel between worlds, planes, and the D&D multiverse

[Unoriginal]

Here's the video:


https://youtu.be/9JHyJj8C21c

Some highlights:


-A plane is described as "a defined pocket of reality with certain characteristics" and as "a realm of existence with a cohesive identity generally representing a concept or element".

-Planes have an identity that give them cohesion, no matter how abstract they are (especially in the space/time categories).

-Prime Material Plane is the meeting point of the other planes.

-Outlands are the meeting point of the Outer Planes.

-Planescape is indeed the core cosmology/the default one.

-People on various worlds can and often have a different conception of the planes/imagine them differently, but the Planescape's version is the "bird eye's view", DM-objective

-All the D&D setting worlds are indeed in the same Prime Material Plane.

-Crystal spheres surround the worlds (including their stars and other planets), with the phlogiston in-between.

-Dark Sun's world is cut off from the other worlds (as it is very difficult to leave). Dragonlance's world has been cut off some times, but not always.

-Eberron's relationship with the rest of cosmology: the Progenitors created Eberron as an world/universe they wanted to call their own, so they created this world with little planes surrounding it so that they could control something of their own. Then they cut it off from the rest of the universe with the Ring of Ciberis (sorry for the spelling), which act as its Crystal Sphere and sometime cracks, resulting in pieces falling on Eberron.

-No god own a world in its entirety.

-Ravnica is also a world in the Material Plane.

-You *can* use teleport to travel to another world, at least if you have the sigil sequence of a Teleportation Circle on this world.

[Kane0]

-Planescape is indeed the core cosmology/the default one.

-Crystal spheres surround the worlds (including their stars and other planets), with the phlogiston in-between.

-You *can* use teleport to travel to another world, at least if you have the sigil sequence of a Teleportation Circle on this world.

Yeeessssss!

[Tetrasodium]

Here's the video:


https://youtu.be/9JHyJj8C21c

Some highlights:


-A plane is described as "a defined pocket of reality with certain characteristics" and as "a realm of existence with a cohesive identity generally representing a concept or element".

-Planes have an identity that give them cohesion, no matter how abstract they are (especially in the space/time categories).

-Prime Material Plane is the meeting point of the other planes.

-Outlands are the meeting point of the Outer Planes.

-Planescape is indeed the core cosmology/the default one.

-People on various worlds can and often have a different conception of the planes/imagine them differently, but the Planescape's version is the "bird eye's view", DM-objective

-All the D&D setting worlds are indeed in the same Prime Material Plane.

-Crystal spheres surround the worlds (including their stars and other planets), with the phlogiston in-between.

-Dark Sun's world is cut off from the other worlds (as it is very difficult to leave). Dragonlance's world has been cut off some times, but not always.

-Eberron's relationship with the rest of cosmology: the Progenitors created Eberron as an world/universe they wanted to call their own, so they created this world with little planes surrounding it so that they could control something of their own. Then they cut it off from the rest of the universe with the Ring of Ciberis (sorry for the spelling), which act as its Crystal Sphere and sometime cracks, resulting in pieces falling on Eberron.

-No god own a world in its entirety.

-Ravnica is also a world in the Material Plane.

-You *can* use teleport to travel to another world, at least if you have the sigil sequence of a Teleportation Circle on this world.

I have to admit that I would have expected such a conversation to be cringe worthy nightmare fuel, but he did a great job of explaining & showing why eberron has its own things without resorting to metaplot from another setting.

[Millstone85]

I have to admit that I would have expected such a conversation to be cringe worthy nightmare fuel, but he did a great job of explaining & showing why eberron has its own things without resorting to metaplot from another setting.Are you sure? I am 30 minutes in, and Wayfinder's Guide to Eberron apparently has a bit about the Great Wheel literally pushing itself against the Orrery, forming cracks in a planar shield the Progenitors created.

[Regitnui]

I like the theory (up to the DM to decide the reality of it) that Siberys dragonshards (or dragonshards in general) are pieces of the Eberronspace crystal sphere.

This also implies that the entire Blind Eternities is the area inside the Outer Planes, similar to the phlogiston. Planeswalkers are those who can instinctively teleport between Spheres. Planescape "rings" the Blind Eternities, while Spelljammer moves inside them, making the Weatherlight an interplanar ship that wasn't a spelljammer; it is possible to build one! Oh, I love this new vision of the Dungeons & Gathering multiverse.

[Unoriginal]

Turns out Planeswalkers are more accurately called Sphereswalkers.

[Regitnui]

Turns out Planeswalkers are more accurately called Sphereswalkers.

Yeah, but few planeswalkers have ever been to Sigil to see the centre of the universe they're hopping around.

[Naanomi]

Given its inhabitants... I wonder if the Blind Eternities is more like the Deep Astral, or perhaps even the Far Realm (in 3.X Cosmology, I’d say the Deep Shadow)... and that the Planeswalker Spark lets them use those realms as a ‘back door’ to avoid traveling through the Phlogiston at all


Yeah, but few planeswalkers have ever been to Sigil to see the centre of the universe they're hopping around.
Maybe the Lady of Pain doesn’t like their interference and keeps them out? Historically she keeps out Chronomancers as well

[UrielAwakened]

Does this mean that D&D exists inside the Magic the Gathering universe, and it's canon?

Are D&D gods MTG Gods?

Is Emrakul the Beyonder Mother of legend? Or maybe that's Kozilek since the eyes are his thing.

Is Nicol Bolas a chromatic green dragon?

Can someone please tell me what level spell slot Omniscience is?

Are Rakshasas immune to spells that cost 6 converted mana or less to cast?

[Naanomi]

Does this mean that D&D exists inside the Magic the Gathering universe, and it's canon?

Are D&D gods MTG Gods?

Is Emrakul the Beyonder Mother of legend? Or maybe that's Kozilek since the eyes are his thing.

Is Nicol Bolas a chromatic green dragon?
In theory, every conceivable fictional world (and our own) is part of the Greater Cosmology (though historically not all were part of the Great Wheel, as separate cosmologies existed apart from the Great Wheel). There are infinite Gods in the Great Wheel, plenty of room for the Gods of Amonkhet and Theros (and established mechanics for mortals to ascend to divinity, like Xenegos and probably Heliod)

Emrakul and the rest of the Eldrazi are inhabitants of the Blind Eternities... which I guess is the Deep Astral or Far Plane (Ordinal Plane? My Planescape lore buffs know what I’m talking about...)

The Great Mother of the Beholders is generally recognized as an Obyrith demon, though now may be a whole layer of the Abyss rather than a demon in the classic sense. In any case, probably not an Eldrazi.

Given Bolas (and the other Elder Dragons’) weird creation method, I’d guess they are more akin to Mystara’s primordial dragons than any of the (chromatic/metallic/gemstone) descendants of Io

[Unoriginal]

Maybe the Lady of Pain doesn’t like their interference and keeps them out? Historically she keeps out Chronomancers as well

Well apparently they went with the "Ravnica just discovered the rest of the D&D universe" explanation, so it might just be there hasn't been any of them in Sigil yet.

[Naanomi]

Well apparently they went with the "Ravnica just discovered the rest of the D&D universe" explanation, so it might just be there hasn't been any of them in Sigil yet.
To be fair, Ravnica has been sealed off from the rest of the multiverse because of Azor’s magic for most of its recorded history.

Ravnica won’t be hard to integrate into DnD Lore... Dominaria (as the nexus of the Planes) is a bit harder to me

[Regitnui]

Ravnica won’t be hard to integrate into DnD Lore... Dominaria (as the nexus of the Planes) is a bit harder to me

Dominaria is a clear case of chauvinism. Just because you have one influential planeswalker base his entire centuries-long plan around it, suddenly it's the "center of the multiverse". Well, you ignorant Primes, I'll tell you where the real center of the multiverse is, the realm around which all your little worlds and dreams spin. Here. The Outlands. Which spin around Sigil, where you're standing.

[Millstone85]

I think the way I would do it is that the setting of Eberron is remote and hidden on every plane.

Eberron proper is on the Material, but its crystal sphere is highly difficult for spelljammers to reach, much as it is with Athas.

Then each of the "little planes" is similarly hidden on one of the major planes. For instance, Daanvi is a region of Mechanus that escapes the notice of Primus, while Shavarath is what becomes of the Outlands when they do not have Sigil floating over them.

[Cynthaer]

Ravnica won’t be hard to integrate into DnD Lore... Dominaria (as the nexus of the Planes) is a bit harder to me

I think you could reconcile that easily enough. I mean, who's to say there's only one sort of "hub" world?

Dark Sun, Dragonlance, and Eberron all have somewhat unique relationships with the rest of the cosmos, so it seems perfectly reasonable that you could also have a cluster of worlds that are "closer" to each other (the various M:tG settings), with their own nexus within that cluster (Dominaria).

[Naanomi]

Dominaria is a clear case of chauvinism. Just because you have one influential planeswalker base his entire centuries-long plan around it, suddenly it's the "center of the multiverse". Well, you ignorant Primes, I'll tell you where the real center of the multiverse is, the realm around which all your little worlds and dreams spin. Here. The Outlands. Which spin around Sigil, where you're standing.
Maybe, but MTG lore treats the ‘nexus of the multiverse’ as a real thing... there is at least one other plane that used to be the nexus before Dominaria, and the Mending was necessary because the ‘nexus’ being destroyed would be catastrophic for other worlds as well, unlike other Planes which could be destroyed without a big problem. It is also why the Phyrexians have been so keen on conquering it

It isn’t insurmountable. It could just mean the Prime withtg most natural planar portals to other worlds; or something Tied specifically to the planeswalker spark

Dismissing it entirely though I feel does a disservice to the mtg lore if you really want to integrate

[Unoriginal]

Maybe, but MTG lore treats the ‘nexus of the multiverse’ as a real thing... there is at least one other plane that used to be the nexus before Dominaria, and the Mending was necessary because the ‘nexus’ being destroyed would be catastrophic for other worlds as well, unlike other Planes which could be destroyed without a big problem. It is also why the Phyrexians have been so keen on conquering it

It isn’t insurmountable. It could just mean the Prime withtg most natural planar portals to other worlds; or something Tied specifically to the planeswalker spark

Dismissing it entirely though I feel does a disservice to the mtg lore if you really want to integrate

As I said in another thread: if you combine two settings, either one or both will have elements amputated in order to make them fit together.

[Cybren]

Given its inhabitants... I wonder if the Blind Eternities is more like the Deep Astral, or perhaps even the Far Realm (in 3.X Cosmology, I’d say the Deep Shadow)... and that the Planeswalker Spark lets them use those realms as a ‘back door’ to avoid traveling through the Phlogiston at all


Maybe the Lady of Pain doesn’t like their interference and keeps them out? Historically she keeps out Chronomancers as well

Well, within magic, Dominaria is the center of the multiverse. Which is one of the reasons I don't really like them trying to cram the two properties together. Having a book about playing D&D in magic worlds is fine, but I don't think they should try to figure out how magic fits within the D&D multiverse. Are we gonna have to figure out where My Little Pony or Neon Genesis Evangelion fit within the planes next?

[Naanomi]

Well, within magic, Dominaria is the center of the multiverse. Which is one of the reasons I don't really like them trying to cram the two properties together. Having a book about playing D&D in magic worlds is fine, but I don't think they should try to figure out how magic fits within the D&D multiverse. Are we gonna have to figure out where My Little Pony or Neon Genesis Evangelion fit within the planes next?
I mean... all fictional universes are established to exist as creations of the Eldest Ones beyond the deepest reaches of the Deep Astral/Deep Shadow, within their own cosmologies... so MLP and Evangelion already have a ‘place’ in the extended DnD Multiverse

[Vogie]

I mean... all fictional universes are established to exist as creations of the Eldest Ones beyond the deepest reaches of the Deep Astral/Deep Shadow, within their own cosmologies... so MLP and Evangelion already have a ‘place’ in the extended DnD Multiverse

Which is, assumedly, contained in the overall Tommy Westphall Universe.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Maybe, but MTG lore treats the ‘nexus of the multiverse’ as a real thing... there is at least one other plane that used to be the nexus before Dominaria, and the Mending was necessary because the ‘nexus’ being destroyed would be catastrophic for other worlds as well, unlike other Planes which could be destroyed without a big problem. It is also why the Phyrexians have been so keen on conquering it

It isn’t insurmountable. It could just mean the Prime withtg most natural planar portals to other worlds; or something Tied specifically to the planeswalker spark

Dismissing it entirely though I feel does a disservice to the mtg lore if you really want to integrate

One idea--

Within the broader multiverse there is internal structure. Some Crystal Spheres ("planes" in M:tG terms) depend on others for (not well understood) reasons. Thus, the destruction of Dominaria (currently serving as a nexus for a large group of Spheres) would have ripple effects on all the planeswalker-visited worlds. Which are many, but are really just a large cluster in infinite meta-space.

When you pull an Obi-won "from a certain perspective" trick, you can have multiple mutually-contradictory "truths" all simultaneously true, at least for patches.

In real-world physics, there is no such thing as a global metric. This means, for example, that universe-wide conservation of energy is ill-defined, because that needs a reference metric. Instead, you have a manifold of patch-like metrics. Where they meet, they give the same predictions, but none of them are defined everywhere. Something like that explains a lot of the differences in D&D planar cosmology. Local truths (what characters know) =/= universal truths--instead they're a reflection of those truths.

[Regitnui]

One idea--

Within the broader multiverse there is internal structure. Some Crystal Spheres ("planes" in M:tG terms) depend on others for (not well understood) reasons. Thus, the destruction of Dominaria (currently serving as a nexus for a large group of Spheres) would have ripple effects on all the planeswalker-visited worlds. Which are many, but are really just a large cluster in infinite meta-space.

Now this I like. Dominaria isn't the nexus, it's a keystone in one arrangement. Like an arch might come falling down if you remove its keystone, but the building remains whole. It also doesn't make any assumptions to the actual "locations" of any M:tG spheres in relation to the Wheel Boundary or other spheres.

[Naanomi]

I agree this works well, in current Spelljammer lore there is the ‘radiant triangle’, a flow that easily connects Kyrnn, Toril, and Oerth... perhaps MTG worlds are closely connected with Dominaria in the middle of the Phlogiston flow web? We know that at least 12 worlds were close enough to form the ‘Shard’ when Urza trapped them from the rest of the Magic universe, so ‘physical proximity’ of planes is an established concept in MtG lore

Now... there is a Spelljamming Hazard... Shandalar the wandering crystal sphere off the port bow!

Also, this model makes a good explanation about why artificial planes always collapse... they are semi-Planes on the Prime but don’t have a real crystal sphere to protect them; only the magic from a Planeswalker keeping the Phlogiston flow out

[PhoenixPhyre]

I agree this works well, in current Spelljammer lore there is the ‘radiant triangle’, a flow that easily connects Kyrnn, Toril, and Oerth... perhaps MTG worlds are closely connected with Dominaria in the middle of the Phlogiston flow web? We know that at least 12 worlds were close enough to form the ‘Shard’ when Urza trapped them from the rest of the Magic universe, so ‘physical proximity’ of planes is an established concept in MtG lore

Now... there is a Spelljamming Hazard... Shandalar the wandering crystal sphere off the port bow!

Also, this model makes a good explanation about why artificial planes always collapse... they are semi-Planes on the Prime but don’t have a real crystal sphere to protect them; only the magic from a Planeswalker keeping the Phlogiston flow out

And space/distance can be somewhat metaphysical as well, so "close" can mean something other than euclidean distance.

My long-time cosmology (before this whole 5e-spelljamming thing came out) was basically as follows:

The multiverse itself is quasi-sentient, but dreaming. First it dreamed of Self, which implies that there are Others. These Other Dreamers spread out and created the Crystal Spheres, shaping the worlds by their thoughts. Some Spheres were made in clusters as Dreamers cooperated (or dominated/competed). Others form networks, circuits for unimaginable reasons. The main "clusters" are the "normal" D&D multiverse and the M:tG Planes, but many others that don't necessarily fit the same mold as the others drift embedded in the Dark Beyond. Some are permiable to travel, others are closed. And there are dangers out there--malevolent thoughts, creatures that find this whole creation business painful and want to destroy it all by destroying the Self/Other dichotomy (Borg-style), as well as other weirdness. As you leave a Cluster, travel becomes harder and slower with more dangers lurking Beyond.

My personal setting is a closed one where the Dreamer responsible for it cut off all the other planes at the Sphere-wall and instituted its own, located well outside the main Clusters; an isolated world.

Artificial planes fail in part because of external forces and in part due to a lack of Dreaming strength.

And the odd uniformity of races and magic (etc) is not because the Gods are the same entities throughout, but because the Dreamers all shared a common vision. The Gods are reflections of the Dreamers' thoughts--the Dreamers act as (for example) Ao's boss.

[Envyus]

Eberron proper is on the Material, but its crystal sphere is highly difficult for spelljammers to reach, much as it is with Athas.


The Athas crystal sphere is actually fairly well known, the issue is that it's near impossible to leave and it's a hellhole so no one goes there.

[Naanomi]

The Athas crystal sphere is actually fairly well known, the issue is that it's near impossible to leave and it's a hellhole so no one goes there.
Although it isn’t attached to the Radiant Triangle and is in the fringes I’d thr Greater Arcane Flow, so it is physically distant as well (comparatively)

[Regitnui]

Although it isn’t attached to the Radiant Triangle and is in the fringes I’d thr Greater Arcane Flow, so it is physically distant as well (comparatively)

I don't think there's been any statement on the relative positioning of the Magic planes, but here's an interesting snippet:


Due to the changing nature of the multiverse, it was bound to happen that one day another plane would replace it. Actually, Dominaria stopped being the Nexus of the Multiverse when the Mending happened.

So perhaps the Nexus of the Multiverse is now in a place no planeswalker can go; Sigil. Dominaria is no longer the central pin for the entire Prime Material, though it may have some keystone significance still.

[Naanomi]

I don't think there's been any statement on the relative positioning of the Magic planes, but here's an interesting snippet:
There are a few hints at some planes being closer to others; but except for the 12 worlds of the Shard (most of which we know nothing about) and the fact that Shandalar wanders around a lot... we don’t have much sense of where the Planes are. It basically doesn’t matter to Planeswalkers, even the few creatures that travel through thr Blind Eternities don’t seem to make much heed of ‘travel time’

[Griswold]

Turns out Planeswalkers are more accurately called Sphereswalkers.

Oh, but Spherewalkers already from another RPG made by Wizards of the Coast, Everway. I would be very surprised (but not too unhappy) if they brought that into the cosmology.

[Regitnui]

Oh, but Spherewalkers already from another RPG made by Wizards of the Coast, Everway. I would be very surprised (but not too unhappy) if they brought that into the cosmology.

Thanks for pointing me to that. It's interesting.

[dreast]

Dominaria is a clear case of chauvinism. Just because you have one influential planeswalker base his entire centuries-long plan around it, suddenly it's the "center of the multiverse". Well, you ignorant Primes, I'll tell you where the real center of the multiverse is, the realm around which all your little worlds and dreams spin. Here. The Outlands. Which spin around Sigil, where you're standing.

Quit rattling your bonebox at these learherheads, they wouldn’t know the chant if it bit ‘em on the arse. May as well argue philosophy with a Dabus. Leave the berks to their prime delusions.

[Naanomi]

Quit rattling your bonebox at these learherheads, they wouldn’t know the chant if it bit ‘em on the arse. May as well argue philosophy with a Dabus. Leave the berks to their prime delusions.
Bally sod, listen to the backring barkle coming from this addle-cove bleeder; thinking he’s a canny blood when he’s been bobbed a piece of cake at best; pure Slaad story fit for a ringwalker.

Parrot Cagers always think they got the lilly, but even a leatherhead should keep it in the idea-pot there ain’t no true ‘center of the multiverse’, tumble to the true wigwag; the in-and-out got lots of middles, which have winded here and there since before there were tieflings.

[Unoriginal]

You know, a whole new world with plenty of souls suddenly being known by the rest of the universe might just be the big break Moloch need.

Could be fun to have him get involved in Ravnica.

[Regitnui]

You know, a whole new world with plenty of souls suddenly being known by the rest of the universe might just be the big break Moloch need.

Could be fun to have him get involved in Ravnica.

Rakdos (demon parun of the Cult of Rakdos), the Orzhov Syndicate (traders in money and souls) and Niv-Mizzet (supergenius dragon) would be very interested in a new player of that sort. Admittedly, Niv-Mizzet is interested in anyone who looks like they could match wits with him until they can't.

[Unoriginal]

Rakdos (demon parun of the Cult of Rakdos), the Orzhov Syndicate (traders in money and souls) and Niv-Mizzet (supergenius dragon) would be very interested in a new player of that sort. Admittedly, Niv-Mizzet is interested in anyone who looks like they could match wits with him until they can't.

Moloch is beyond genius in INT and CHA, and still genius in WIS. He also used to do business on a scale that makes any planet-wide power seems like kids playing at selling mud pies. And he's far from the only one, or from being the smartest.

I'd say that Ravnica's big bosses are soon going to discover they were big fishes in a tiny pond, and now that pond is connected to the ocean.


In any case, Moloch could certainly make a fortune simply by selling Eidolons to the different factions.

[Azreal]

I'd say that Ravnica's big bosses are soon going to discover they were big fishes in a tiny pond, and now that pond is connected to the ocean.


Isn’t Niv’s intellect on a scale matched by the likes of Bolas? You know the guy who manipulates entire planes of existence for his schemes.

[Unoriginal]

Isn’t Niv’s intellect on a scale matched by the likes of Bolas? You know the guy who manipulates entire planes of existence for his schemes.


As it turns out, the M:tG planes are actually just worlds in the Material Planes.

So no, Bolas doesn't manipulates entire planes of existence. He manipulates worlds, which is impressive on its own right, true... but it's the very basic to even beginning to be considered a player among the actual planar powers of D&D.

[Naanomi]

I could see Bolas right up there with Ashardalon and the like... a dragon powerful enough to be known on a Planar level. Bolas was an old-walker, and seems to have plans to get that power back... and that is Planar level power: an Oldwalker can create artificial Prime material worlds; one once cast a spell preventing travel to 12 different Primes, and a few have ruined entire worlds... that isn’t anything to dismiss even among planar heavy hitters

Nov is brilliant in an intellectual sense, but too provincial (for now) to be such a power... although he is aware of other worlds and interested in them, so he has potential


As it turns out, the M:tG planes are actually just worlds in the Material Planes.
Which isn’t unprecedented terminology, Spelljammers often call each crystal sphere ‘a Prime material plane’

[Azreal]

As it turns out, the M:tG planes are actually just worlds in the Material Planes.

So no, Bolas doesn't manipulates entire planes of existence. He manipulates worlds, which is impressive on its own right, true... but it's the very basic to even beginning to be considered a player among the actual planar powers of D&D.

That seems kind of nit-picky honestly but fair.

I dunno the scale Bolas seems to work with seems more god-like then just normal powerful wizard. Maybe that's just a personal perspective though and I'm overestimating what he's capable of.

[Regitnui]

Nov is brilliant in an intellectual sense, but too provincial (for now) to be such a power... although he is aware of other worlds and interested in them, so he has potential

Niv-Mizzet isn't an interplanar power, it's true, but I'd cautiously put him on the same level as Iggwilv (or whatever that witch who seduced Grazzt is called). Perhaps a step above, being immortal or close to it. He might not be a demon prince or archdevil's one-on-one match, but he's smart enough to manipulate them like puppets on his home ground. Any extraplanar powerhouse is going to have to be aware they're playing on Niv-Mizzet's turf. He's more than smart enough to figure out banishment and binding magics, and is detached enough to let Mammon, or whomever, take out a city block or two just as a gauge of their abilities.

[UrielAwakened]

Niv-Mizzet is basically omniscient through the Firemind. He's also more than 15,000 years old so Idk what that puts him compared to Ancient Red Dragons in D&D but yeah.


"He's more than smart enough to figure out banishment and binding magics"

Those are 2- and 3-CMC spells in Magic. He knows those exist. Mass-exile is also a thing on Ravnica and it's a weapon Orzhov uses to great effectiveness.

Like any spell effect in D&D probably exists cranked up to 11 in the Magic-verse.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Niv-Mizzet is basically omniscient through the Firemind. He's also more than 15,000 years old so Idk what that puts him compared to Ancient Red Dragons in D&D but yeah.

Ancient dragons are players on the level of individual worlds. They're not really impactful beyond that save as subordinates or allies. That may be a bit different in Eberron, which I'm not familiar with. In Krynnspace, the peak of draconic power is multiple ancient dragons tussling over rulership of a single world and ultimately being bounced by the mortal servants of a deity. Most, though not all, of the players at the planar level are basically n years old.

[UrielAwakened]

Yeah but he's not just an ancient dragon.

He's an ancient dragon with a brain connected to the internet and an understanding of bleeding-edge magic and technology.

He's like Ultron if Ultron were a dragon.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Yeah but he's not just an ancient dragon.

He's an ancient dragon with a brain connected to the internet and an understanding of bleeding-edge magic and technology.

He's like Ultron if Ultron was a dragon.

So he's maybe equivalent to Dispater.

[Naanomi]

Ancient dragons are players on the level of individual worlds. They're not really impactful beyond that save as subordinates or allies. That may be a bit different in Eberron, which I'm not familiar with. In Krynnspace, the peak of draconic power is multiple ancient dragons tussling over rulership of a single world and ultimately being bounced by the mortal servants of a deity. Most, though not all, of the players at the planar level are basically n years old.
Ashardalon is a dragon who threatened the source of all souls (amongst other things), there are dragons with presence and influence on a Planar scale

[Unoriginal]

So he's maybe equivalent to Dispater.

Dispater may not be connected to the internet, but he regularly manages a multi-planar business of getting people to sell their souls to him despite his issues.

Niv-Mizzet is not equivalent to a planar ruler, or a planar layer ruler.

[Naanomi]

Dispater may not be connected to the internet, but he regularly manages a multi-planar business of getting people to sell their souls to him despite his issues.

Niv-Mizzet is not equivalent to a planar ruler, or a planar layer ruler.
I agree, but he is (maybe) a being of caliber to interact with such beings given a chance

[Luccan]

I think where Ravnica/MtG NPCs power lay in comparison to the rest of the planes is moot until they become aware of them. Even then, one or more could be like several greater powers that don't care about things outside their sphere of influence, but are not to be trifled with on their home turf.

[Regitnui]

Dispater may not be connected to the internet, but he regularly manages a multi-planar business of getting people to sell their souls to him despite his issues.

Niv-Mizzet is not equivalent to a planar ruler, or a planar layer ruler.

Nope. He's not the equivalent to a planar ruler. Give him the chance, the ability to access those worlds, and enough time to make sure his massive, needs-wings-of-its-own-or-he'll-never-fly ego doesn't get in the way, and he could very easily become that.


I think where Ravnica/MtG NPCs power lay in comparison to the rest of the planes is moot until they become aware of them. Even then, one or more could be like several greater powers that don't care about things outside their sphere of influence, but are not to be trifled with on their home turf.

Niv-Mizzet is on the level of "Average off his home sphere, deadly on it." That's why I liken him to Iggwilv (whatever her name is). He'd fully capable of making someone else play be the rules in his house, but he's not a challenge to the real powers that be outside his little world.

[UrielAwakened]

I feel like the ceiling on MtG power is way higher than D&D power too.

The Tarrasque would be like a 7/7 at best in terms of scale size. There are creatures that dwarf it running around.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

The tarrasque is also dwarfed by a lot of stuff in the DnDverse.

[UrielAwakened]

In terms of actual feats though what do D&D creatures, demons, gods, whatever, have that stacks up well?

Even discounting the pre-mending Walkers, there's stuff like Emrakul flying around. As well as spells that can kill stuff like Emrakul. 5e especially seems like the general power curve has been severely flattened.

[Naanomi]

Even discounting the pre-mending Walkers, there's stuff like Emrakul flying around. As well as spells that can kill stuff like Emrakul. 5e especially seems like the general power curve has been severely flattened.
Emrakul is like... a Warlock patron or top Far Realm being. And no spell can kill it storywise, it willingly banished itself because ‘reasons’. The other two were killed by... exploiting stuff pre-Mending old walkers (ie: plot-Gods) had in place and a host of epic level magic cast by an impressive group of (epic level?) casters with the Planeswalker spark (which we have yet to see how it is represented in DnD translations)

If I assume a Shivan Dragon is an Adult Red Dragon (CR 17), lots of power scale above that. Lesser Eldrazi are comparable to an Astral Dreadnought in some ways (at CR 21) to me

[Azreal]

There's a new neo-walker who is an eight year old girl who can freely manipulate Fate itself.

Also. Can we talk about how Jace Beleron exists and therefore needs stats? Can we even give him stats that actually encompass not only what he's capable of, but don't make Tiamat cry?

[UrielAwakened]

And then once you give Jace stats, realize that Nicol Bolas is like one thousand times as powerful.

Everything from Agents of Artifice imply Jace's mind is like a teacup in a tsunami compared to Bolas. He's a better telepath than Jace, a better evoker than Chandra, and a better warlock than Liliana even with her Veil.

[Naanomi]

There's a new neo-walker who is an eight year old girl who can freely manipulate Fate itself.

Also. Can we talk about how Jace Beleron exists and therefore needs stats? Can we even give him stats that actually encompass not only what he's capable of, but don't make Tiamat cry?
He isn’t hard, he is a high level Mystic with whatever epic feats being ‘the living guildpact’ grants him on Ravnica. Most of the Planeswalkers are not too hard to represent as high level PCs with some special ‘planeswalker’ feat/Background/boon

[Azreal]

Most people in DnD can't casually because of who they are just f**k off to other worlds/planes, and especially can't do it multiple times in a row a day.

[Chaosmancer]

So, why does it matter if "ancient super powerful telepathic Dragon with a potential army of powerful followers" is weaker than "ancient super powerful devil with access to all the forces of Hell" you are somewhere between an underpaid rat exterminator and a demigod, weaker than both by a pretty decent margin.

[Naanomi]

So, why does it matter if "ancient super powerful telepathic Dragon with a potential army of powerful followers" is weaker than "ancient super powerful devil with access to all the forces of Hell" you are somewhere between an underpaid rat exterminator and a demigod, weaker than both by a pretty decent margin.
Perhaps, though ‘ruining a scheme’ of either might be on your to-do list at some point

[Cybren]

And then once you give Jace stats, realize that Nicol Bolas is like one thousand times as powerful.

Everything from Agents of Artifice imply Jace's mind is like a teacup in a tsunami compared to Bolas. He's a better telepath than Jace, a better evoker than Chandra, and a better warlock than Liliana even with her Veil.

I mean, none of the MTG characters, Bolas, Urza, Yawgmoth included, are half as strong as the unnamed player planeswalker.

[Naanomi]

I mean, none of the MTG characters, Bolas, Urza, Yawgmoth included, are half as strong as the unnamed player planeswalker.
Eh, that depends a lot on the deck you use. A ‘Planeswalker’ themed deck using only spells a given plot Planeswalker should have access to end up pretty competitive in most cases

[Cybren]

Eh, that depends a lot on the deck you use. A ‘Planeswalker’ themed deck using only spells a given plot Planeswalker should have access to end up pretty competitive in most cases

I just mean in general, the characters depicted in the games story are orders of magnitude weaker than the "planeswalkers" playing the game. Even without absurd combos.

[JackPhoenix]

Mending broke the multiverse and changed how planeswalker (and other things) work.
Nicol Bolas wants his pre-Mending OP oldwalker powers back.
We'll get Ravnica for D&D, and there will be another Ravnica MtG block at the same time.

I wouldn't be surprised if whatever Bolas plans to do (or whatever the Jacestice League does to stop him) led to another Mending-level disaster and broke the multiverse again and made it compatible with D&D ruleset.

[Spriteless]

I love how those Sigil berks talk about how you must be a fool to think yourself the center of everything, then call themselves the center of everything. Really, they think they are the center of all planes just because they imagine The Outlands is a map of everything else.

Anyways, judging by Ravnica's giant world city theme, it is more densely populated than most worlds. No wide open prairies, just skyscrapers. no oceans, just aqueducts (with skyscrapers in them). Mountains are hollowed out, the volcanoes are cheap rent for demons. Even the ruins of civilization are populated with new life.

Ravnica's powers are not just big fish in a small pond. They are big fish in a big pond.

[Unoriginal]

I love how those Sigil berks talk about how you must be a fool to think yourself the center of everything, then call themselves the center of everything. Really, they think they are the center of all planes just because they imagine The Outlands is a map of everything else.

The thing is, they are correct.

Or as correct as mortals can be, in any case.



Anyways, judging by Ravnica's giant world city theme, it is more densely populated than most worlds. No wide open prairies, just skyscrapers. no oceans, just aqueducts (with skyscrapers in them). Mountains are hollowed out, the volcanoes are cheap rent for demons. Even the ruins of civilization are populated with new life.

Ravnica's powers are not just big fish in a small pond. They are big fish in a big pond.

Yeah, no.

It doesn't matter if Ravnica is densely populated, it's one world.

It could have 10 times more people than another world, the actual planar powers have access to hundreds of planets, not even talking about the sheer immensity of the planes and layers they control.

Hell, wouldn't be surprised if Sigil by itself was bigger than Ravnica.

So no, Ravnica's powers-that-be are not big fishes in a big pond.

[Azreal]

I think if we could get a better sense of scale of how card power translates to DnD power scaling this could be a better discussion?

[Naanomi]

I think if we could get a better sense of scale of how card power translates to DnD power scaling this could be a better discussion?
I don’t think it is doable (or relevant); things get casting costs based on existing limited metagame, potential interactions, to discourage playability in Chaos cards, rarity and multicolor are also at play... and the same effect exists across different casting costs (is Counterspell or Cancel DnD Counterspell)?

Plus, summoning creatures is easy in Magic and hard in 5e... that an adult red dragon is icononically 3RR means little trying to translate it over.

[Azreal]

Well I meant more seeing the solid stats for the Guildmasters of Ravnica will help to see where they fit into the power scale of DND.

Also Summoning is easier in Magic when you’re the nearly all powerful Planeswalker player character. While there’s a host of other characters who use Summoning magic it isn’t quite as common I think the multiverse over? (Correct me if I’m wrong of course.)

Course the player is also drawing on the mana of entire land masses at some points as well which I’m sure isn’t any insignificant amount.