Vengence Paladin: Fated to be highly deductive?

[Aimeryan]

So, I ran into this issue when playing my Paladin in a recent session and it got me thinking.

My Paladin has slightly below average Intelligence (8) and average Wisdom (10). She has a thirst for destroying Evil; she has taken the Oaths of Vengeance with her sworn enemies being sentient Undead; she has a level in Hexblade (mostly for the Charisma to attacks & damage), with the patron being the Raven Queen - the two go together.


Encounter

In some sewers the party was exploring, looking for a particular enemy we were following the tracks for, we came across what the DM described as "a pale looking man, heavily pockmarked, with some of the flesh possibly being dead flesh, ragged and torn clothes, and a foul stench coming off him". Also described was a nearby pile of tiny pieces of bones. As a player I immediately thought Ghoul, but we were not attacked.

The DM paused for us so we could decide what to do; I asked for a Knowledge check (Intelligence), which didn't score highly and was told I could not determine what it was. When none of us acted, surprisingly, the possibly-Undead person spoke up and asked if we were looking for something. We proceeded to ask some questions regarding our mark, of which he was somewhat helpful.

My Paladin, wanted to establish if this person/Undead*/something-else was evil. Indeed, if it was a sentient Undead it was therefore very much my sworn enemy. I asked questions like "Why do you look like that?", "What kind of food do you eat to survive down here?", "Would you hurt people if they were alone?", etc. - this went nowhere; my Insight check (Wisdom) rolls were not great (but not bad, either), and with my Wisdom as it was I could not detect any lies that would show the creature up as evil. Even if I did get lucky with a roll I would probably have to ask a follow up question at which point I would then likely fail on that Insight roll landing me back at square one.

I decided to check the bone pile while the party was occupying the him, but my Investigation check (Intelligence) yielded nothing. Without due cause, my Paladin had to leave it alone, so there goes some quite likely evil creature left alive to pray on more people. I later informed the local authorities of the encounter and my suspicions, at which I was told they would possibly look into it if they had time.


*It should be noted here that my Divine Sense had already been used up from earlier encounters; it would have solved the issue in particular for an Undead, however, there are many types of enemies that are neither Celestial, Fiend, or Undead that could and will be Evil. Swap the encounter for an Aberration and Divine Sense doesn't help even if you do have uses left.


Oaths

The Oaths of Vengeance require you fight great Evils and have no mercy. Short of being attacked by Evil, the Paladin is not readily able to discern what is and is not Evil. Even when attacked, you don't necessarily know that what was fought was Evil and if you should have mercy or if you are even really following the Oaths. You may seem like just any other adventurer, rather than someone following specific Oaths.

It could even be considered that you are breaking your Oaths; 'qualms' not to just kill people and creatures in case they are Evil are getting in the way of fighting Evil by any means necessary. Giving mercy to the Wicked, because you do not know who the Wicked are. How do you know who the Greater Evil is when I don't even know who the Evil is?


Conclusion

It seems like with the removal of the Detect Evil spell has forced Paladins who wish to specifically fight Evil and give it no mercy to either be highly deductive (likely requiring pretty good Intelligence and Wisdom stats) or only focus on Celestials, Fiends, and Undead. This is a surprise, given that Paladins are Charismatic spellcasters and that previous editions did not require that they have detective-level skills.

That, or indeed, just slay everything that looks at you sideways and let the gods sort them out. Hey, I'm just fulfilling my Oaths!


Edit: Made some corrections pointed out by the below posters.

[solidork]

Your Divine Sense ability would allow you to determine if the person you encountered was an Undead. Is there anything in particular that your character is motivated to fight against because of their background? I think this is what is intended to be meant as the "Greater Evil" mentioned in the oaths.

Perhaps because of the difficulty of sorting out true evil among mortals, your character is dedicated to fighting fiends and undead that emit a corrupting aura he can actually feel. Your average bandits might then be considered the 'lesser evil' and can be spared the full wrath of your vengeance.

You'll also eventually get Zone of Truth, which can help you determine if people are telling the truth.

[Unoriginal]

If you want to be an investigator, you need to be smart, no surprise here.

However, trying to see if someone is lying is a WIS check, with Insight proficiency. Not an INT check.


Also, you're a bloody Paladin. You literaly has Divine Sense to detect Undead. As a class feature.


...I'm not sure what to say.

[Aimeryan]

Your Divine Sense ability would allow you to determine if the person you encountered was an Undead. Is there anything in particular that your character is motivated to fight against because of their background? I think this is what is intended to be meant as the "Greater Evil" mentioned in the oaths.

Perhaps because of the difficulty of sorting out true evil among mortals, your character is dedicated to fighting fiends and undead that emit a corrupting aura he can actually feel. Your average bandits might then be considered the 'lesser evil' and can be spared the full wrath of your vengeance.

You'll also eventually get Zone of Truth, which can help you determine if people are telling the truth.

True, although it only works so many times before a Long Rest, and only for the mentioned types. Still, would have worked in this case had I not used it up already (other encounters, including hiding enemies, earlier in the day).

Slight change to the question then: Fated to be highly deductive or only have sworn enemies of the celestial, fiend, or undead type?




If you want to be an investigator, you need to be smart, no surprise here.

However, trying to see if someone is lying is a WIS check, with Insight proficiency. Not an INT check.

True, however, Wisdom as a Paladin is fairly mediocre too, if perhaps less so than Intelligence.

The point I am looking at is if the removal of Detect Evil as a way of discerning alignment means that Paladins now are almost required to be highly deductive in order to actually be effective at fighting Evil, besides the "hope to get attacked by something and then presume it was Evil" method? Whether it is based on Intelligence or Wisdom* is not too important to this, given that neither are particularly otherwise useful to a Paladin (even for saves, given the aura and the Wisdom proficiency).

This might seem logical, but this is a magical setting and Paladins are spellcasters - previous editions didn't require them to be highly deductive, so it is somewhat of a surprise, I feel.


*I'll correct the opening post where necessary for these checks, thank you for pointing them out.

[Unoriginal]

Wisdom is fairly important to a Paladin.

Furthermore, there is plenty of non-hidden evil that you can use your Vengeance on. And as a Vengeance Paladin, you owe no mercy to anyone.

So no, a Paladin of Vengeance is not "fated" to be highly intelligent.

You don't need to detect alignment with spells to know something is evil, nor do you need an high intellect.


And I don't know what you're talking about regarding not being able to detect evil anymore. Even in past editions you couldn't just detect normal evil people, you could only detect supernatural evil. Just like you do in 5e.

[Quoxis]

„I cannot magically sense whether this creature is evil, so i immediately fail my sworn life goal of ridding the world of evil“? Really?
If anything is neither doing nor strongly expected to do something evil, it doesn’t count as evil. Simple as that. If you don’t kill it, there’s no reason for your paladin to fall (except if your GM is hell bent on tricking you, but in that case your problem isn’t related to the rules but to a bad GM), and if you do your alignment isn’t exactly going to be on the good side of the scale, but you can be sure to not spare any evil.

You’re expected to fight the greater evil, as in: the demon lord whose cult enslaves entire cities, the tarrasque which will destroy everything in its way, the lich trying to murder and raise an entire nation as his zombie servants, not a poor schizophrenic hobo chewing on a rat in the sewers.

If you’re really not sure whether something is specifically undead, use your divine sense, the detect evil and good spell, in theory you could even use an unarmed strike on him followed by lay on hands or a healing spell - if his bruise heals he‘s alive, if not he’s undead or a construct, and in both cases he’s probably not going to attack the plate armored greatsword user with a searing hatred for the undead.

[Aimeryan]

I don't know what you're talking about regarding not being able to detect evil anymore. Even in past editions you couldn't just detect normal evil people, you could only detect supernatural evil. Just like you do in 5e.

This is from 3.5e:

Detect Evil (Sp)
At will, a paladin can use detect evil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectEvil.htm), as the spell.


The spell detects evil creatures, normal evil people included. At will, for a Paladin.

[Aimeryan]

„I cannot magically sense whether this creature is evil, so i immediately fail my sworn life goal of ridding the world of evil“? Really?
If anything is neither doing nor strongly expected to do something evil, it doesn’t count as evil. Simple as that. If you don’t kill it, there’s no reason for your paladin to fall (except if your GM is hell bent on tricking you, but in that case your problem isn’t related to the rules but to a bad GM), and if you do your alignment isn’t exactly going to be on the good side of the scale, but you can be sure to not spare any evil.

You’re expected to fight the greater evil, as in: the demon lord whose cult enslaves entire cities, the tarrasque which will destroy everything in its way, the lich trying to murder and raise an entire nation as his zombie servants, not a poor schizophrenic hobo chewing on a rat in the sewers.

If you’re really not sure whether something is specifically undead, use your divine sense, the detect evil and good spell, in theory you could even use an unarmed strike on him followed by lay on hands or a healing spell - if his bruise heals he‘s alive, if not he’s undead or a construct, and in both cases he’s probably not going to attack the plate armored greatsword user with a searing hatred for the undead.


The encounter was possibly with an Undead, and my Divine Sense was used up. If he had been an evil Aberration then no luck. Or any other type that was not Celestial, Fiend, or Undead.

Maybe you are right on the greater evil meaning I can legit ignore all other possible evil and just go "Eh, who knows?". My DM is fine, this is more about roleplaying as a character who really wants to combat Evil but despite becoming the class designed to do that it seems she has all the wrong stats to do so and no help from the class unless, a few times a day, the evil in question is one of the three specific enemy types - actually, that still doesn't answer whether they are evil even then (they could be a celestial!).

[MaxWilson]

So, I ran into this issue when playing my Paladin in a recent session and it got me thinking.

...I decided to check the bone pile while the party was occupying the him, but my Investigation check (Intelligence) yielded nothing. Without due cause, my Paladin had to leave it alone, so there goes some quite likely evil creature left alive to pray on more people. I later informed the local authorities of the encounter and my suspicions, at which I was told they would possibly look into it if they had time.

*It should be noted here that my Divine Sense had already been used up from earlier encounters; it would have solved the issue in particular for an Undead, however, there are many types of enemies that are neither Celestial, Fiend, or Undead that could and will be Evil. Swap the encounter for an Aberration and Divine Sense doesn't help even if you do have uses left.

In this particular case, is there anything to stop you from going back and checking on the possibly-evil-creature yourself later on instead of leaning on the authorities? At that point you should have your Divine Sense back.

I'm a little bit leery of murdering anything which happens to be undead/evil/whatever just because it is undead/evil/whatever, because "evil" doesn't always equate to "threatens others"--c.f. Lucias Clay, the old man in the Legend of Wooley Swamp, who was probably Neutral Evil but "never did do a lot of harm in the world/But he never did do no good". So I wouldn't use Divine Sense as my criterion for killing things in the first place. But since you're clearly playing a paladin who does feel okay about murdering anything that pings his Divine Sense, I thought I would point out that you still just as much ability to check out your lead as the local authorities do.

[Aimeryan]

In this particular case, is there anything to stop you from going back and checking on the possibly-evil-creature yourself later on instead of leaning on the authorities? At that point you should have your Divine Sense back.

I'm a little bit leery of murdering anything which happens to be undead/evil/whatever just because it is undead/evil/whatever, because "evil" doesn't always equate to "threatens others"--c.f. Lucias Clay, the old man in the Legend of Wooley Swamp, who was probably Neutral Evil but "never did do a lot of harm in the world/But he never did do no good". So I wouldn't use Divine Sense as my criterion for killing things in the first place. But since you're clearly playing a paladin who does feel okay about murdering anything that pings his Divine Sense, I thought I would point out that you still just as much ability to check out your lead as the local authorities do.


The campaign hasn't gave me the chance to go back, however, even then Divine Sense might work or it might not - it doesn't have to be Undead to be evil. Furthermore, this is more about the generality than the specific case.

I have reservations of such, too. This has always been a contentious point in D&D, since whole races are classes as evil. In 5e, Divine Sense is essentially a race detect spell rather than an alignment detection, which makes it even worse. At least with Detect Evil back in previous editions the creature was actually evil (whether choice was involved is another question, though...).

[Quoxis]

The encounter was possibly with an Undead, and my Divine Sense was used up. If he had been an evil Aberration then no luck. Or any other type that was not Celestial, Fiend, or Undead.

Maybe you are right on the greater evil meaning I can legit ignore all other possible evil and just go "Eh, who knows?". My DM is fine, this is more about roleplaying as a character who really wants to combat Evil but despite becoming the class designed to do that it seems she has all the wrong stats to do so and no help from the class unless, a few times a day, the evil in question is one of the three specific enemy types - actually, that still doesn't answer whether they are evil even then (they could be a celestial!).

Bull. With the divine sense feature you know which type the creature has - no accidents in the sense of „whoops, totally thought that angel was a zombie, my bad“. You can use this feature cha+1 times per long rest, and i doubt you reasonably used up the at least 3 uses of a something that’s that much of a niche feature that many people even forget about having it.
The detect evil and good spell which you conveniently ignored also tells you about aberrations, elementals and fey added to the three groups of your divine sense.

Again: you can be good vengeance and give creatures the benefit of the doubt or be the evil „greater good“ vengeance killing everything that might possibly be evil. Followed by suicide for reasons of defeating all evil, regardless of motivation, severity and lethality.

[Aimeryan]

Bull. With the divine sense feature you know which type the creature has - no accidents in the sense of „whoops, totally thought that angel was a zombie, my bad“. You can use this feature cha+1 times per long rest, and i doubt you reasonably used up the at least 3 uses of a something that’s that much of a niche feature that many people even forget about having it.
The detect evil and good spell which you conveniently ignored also tells you about aberrations, elementals and fey added to the three groups of your divine sense.

Again: you can be good vengeance and give creatures the benefit of the doubt or be the evil „greater good“ vengeance killing everything that might possibly be evil. Followed by suicide for reasons of defeating all evil, regardless of motivation, severity and lethality.

Ah, it does mention you know the type, still the limited types, though. The spell does not tell you the type, however. Neither tells you if the creature is actually evil.

It feels to me like the Paladin has gone from being a class capable of policing and judging those who do evil, as well as fighting off the obvious "I'm evil and going on a rampage" type of threats, to just being a glorified racist (typist?).

[Unoriginal]

Seriously?

"5e Paladins are just racists lol" ?

Transparent trolling is transparent. Please stop.


Paladins don't need to be geniuses to find out the kind of threats they have to fight. That is a fact. There are more than enough monsters whose malevolence can be seen easily, with Divine Sense or not. If they want to go for the more subtle threats, yes, they need to be a bit smarter, but so do any other classes.

5e Paladins are perfectly capable to police and judge those who do evil.


EDIT:

Note that Paladins don't have to be defenders against evil if they don't want to. Your Vengeance Paladin could be an evil slaughterer, as long as he did destroy the Undead like he swore he'll still be a Vengeance Paladin.

Because Vengeance is not Justice.

[EvilAnagram]

I never enjoyed playing alongside people who would Detect Evil on anything and immediately attack. It was annoying and frequently led to the party letting the paladin rot in prison while the player whined that it was okay to kill someone on the street because they weren't kind-hearted.

Forcing the player to act like an actual person is infinitely preferable.

[MaxWilson]

The campaign hasn't gave me the chance to go back, however, even then Divine Sense might work or it might not - it doesn't have to be Undead to be evil. Furthermore, this is more about the generality than the specific case.

I have reservations of such, too. This has always been a contentious point in D&D, since whole races are classes as evil. In 5e, Divine Sense is essentially a race detect spell rather than an alignment detection, which makes it even worse. At least with Detect Evil back in previous editions the creature was actually evil (whether choice was involved is another question, though...).

That's kind of my point though: not all evil creatures deserve to be murdered. Some just deserve pity and compassion. (Gollum comes to mind.)

If you're only kind to Good-aligned creatures, you don't qualify as "good" in my book. Goodness isn't just a team jersey.


It feels to me like the Paladin has gone from being a class capable of policing and judging those who do evil, as well as fighting off the obvious "I'm evil and going on a rampage" type of threats, to just being a glorified racist (typist?).

When did paladins ever have an ability for Detect Rampaging Evil?

[Unoriginal]

I never enjoyed playing alongside people who would Detect Evil on anything and immediately attack. It was annoying and frequently led to the party letting the paladin rot in prison while the player whined that it was okay to kill someone on the street because they weren't kind-hearted.

Forcing the player to act like an actual person is infinitely preferable.

Amen.

And let's not get into the whole "the Paladin falls" contrived scenarios.



I have reservations of such, too. This has always been a contentious point in D&D, since whole races are classes as evil. In 5e, Divine Sense is essentially a race detect spell rather than an alignment detection, which makes it even worse. At least with Detect Evil back in previous editions the creature was actually evil (whether choice was involved is another question, though...).

5e let you detects creature types. Not certain humanoid races or the like, it makes you detect supernatural entities.

It's not racist to consider fiends to be evil. They're literally made of evil.



When did paladins ever have an ability for Detect Rampaging Evil?

Seeing that some evil beings are on a rampage is something most creatures above animal intelligence are capable to notice.

[Aimeryan]

Unoriginal, I think you and me are looking at quite different things.

As far as I can tell, you are looking at the big obvious threats who anyone with sight can see is evil, and yes, of course Paladins know those threats are evil as well - it kind of goes without saying... which is why I'm not really focusing on that type.

I am looking at the less obvious types. at which Paladins used to excel at detecting and dealing with - 5e seems to have chucked that out.

To be fair, others have pointed out that they also see the Vengeance Paladin as only focusing on the first type, at which point sure - a dumb as rocks Paladin needs nothing special to work out that the Lich going around blasting villagers is indeed evil and should be dealt with. In this thread, no one else seems to have come forth to highlight that they also disparage the lack of ability to deal with evils that are not so blindingly obvious.



It's not racist to consider fiends to be evil. They're literally made of evil.

It quite literally is racist (or maybe typist would be more accurate) - it just so happens to also be true. As it is fantasy it is not a problem for, e.g., all Fiends to definitely be evil and therefore for you to hate and prejudge any Fiend you come across - it is racist, but with just cause. In real life such absolutes do not exist, of course, and as such are unfair and pessimistic.

[EvilAnagram]

In this thread, no one else seems to have come forth to highlight that they also disparage the lack of ability to deal with evils that are not so blindingly obvious.

I don't think anyone else thinks paladins should excel at ferreting out evil people if they're not willing to invest in social skills.

[Unoriginal]

I am looking at the less obvious types. at which Paladins used to excel at detecting and dealing with - 5e seems to have chucked that out.

Paladins never used to excel at that. They could detect strong evil auras of fiends, undead, evil clerics and similar creatures, and they could tell that normal creatures were evil (via detecting a faint aura).

Knowing that normal beings were evil didn't help the Paladins to do anything (except if they wanted to go around executing people for that) and aside from evil Clerics the Paladins can still detect the rest.



To be fair, others have pointed out that they also see the Vengeance Paladin as only focusing on the first type, at which point sure - a dumb as rocks Paladin needs nothing special to work out that the Lich going around blasting villagers is indeed evil and should be dealt with. In this thread, no one else seems to have come forth to highlight that they also disparage the lack of ability to deal with evils that are not so blindingly obvious.

Dealing with what is not blindingly obvious requires a minimum of INT or WIS. No surprise here.

[Aimeryan]

I don't think anyone else thinks paladins should excel at ferreting out evil people if they're not willing to invest in social skills.

That is not exactly what the Paladin class description portrays, however:


A paladin swears to uphold justice and righteousness, to stand with the good things of the world against the encroaching darkness, and to hunt the forces of evil wherever they lurk.


Paladins train for years to learn the skills of combat, mastering a variety of weapons and armor. Even so, their martial skills are secondary to the magical power they wield: power to heal the sick and injured, to smite the wicked and the undead, and to protect the innocent and those who join them in the fight for justice.

Still, perhaps you are right: 5e removing at will Detect Evil and giving no true replacement for detecting evil (as opposed to type) is a clear sign that this is the direction they went in. A fairly big change from previous editions.

Finding it difficult to imagine my Paladin willing to ignore the consequences of evil going on all around her while in the city, just because the evil doers are not running around being all obvious that it is them. I guess I will just have to play her as indifferent to anything but the big threats. I mean, she can still try, but she wouldn't have any better luck at than your average commoner, despite being in the class and Oath dedicated to seeking out evil with the magic powers they wield.

[Unoriginal]

That is not exactly what the Paladin class description portrays, however:


None of those quotes, not even the parts you bolded, indicates "the Paladin supernaturally knows where to find evil at will and doesn't need to think". They can smite the wicked, protect the innocents, etc, with the powers given to them.

Also, the 5e alignment system isn't the same as 3.X., just to point out.



Finding it difficult to imagine my Paladin willing to ignore the consequences of evil going on all around her while in the city, just because the evil doers are not running around obviously doing evil. I guess I will just have to play her as indifferent to anything but the big threats.

So if you were playing 3.X your Paladin would just go on a killing spree and murder anyone who's evil according to her power?

[Aimeryan]

None of those quotes, not even the parts you bolded, indicates "the Paladin supernaturally knows where to find evil at will and doesn't need to think".

True, however, the class primarily is about using its magical power, as stated, for the purposes stated. Yet, the class provides no tools to do so with. Yes Divine Sense - it detects two evil types, so everything else is apparently just inconsequential.



So if you were playing 3.X your Paladin would just go on a killing spree and murder anyone who's evil according to her power?

Nope, doesn't have to be killing.

[Unoriginal]

True, however, the class primarily is about using its magical power, as stated, for the purposes stated. Yet, the class provides no tools to do so with. Yes Divine Sense - it detects two evil types, so everything else is apparently just inconsequential.

Wrong, wrong, and wrong again.

The purposes of the magical powers, as stated, are:

- heal the sick and injured

- to smite the wicked and the undead

- to protect the innocent and those who join them in the fight for justice.

Paladins have healing powers, smiting powers, and powers to protect innocents and allies (notably their aura).

The class provides all the promised tools.


Also, that "normal" kinds of evil don't "ping" on a supernatural radar don't make them inconsequential.



Nope, doesn't have to be killing.

Then what would she do?

[EvilAnagram]

That is not exactly what the Paladin class description portrays, however:
The description tells us what paladins strive to do. You, apparently, have built a paladin who has yet to reach the goals for which she strives. If you've decided not to invest in skills that help to deduce the natures of your foes, perhaps you should be a bit more judicious in your use of Divine Sense.




Still, perhaps you are right: 5e removing at will Detect Evil and giving no true replacement for detecting evil (as opposed to type) is a clear sign that this is the direction they went in. A fairly big change from previous editions.
The change was made in 4e, and it was one of the more popular changes from that edition.


Finding it difficult to imagine my Paladin willing to ignore the consequences of evil going on all around her while in the city, just because the evil doers are not running around being all obvious that it is them. I guess I will just have to play her as indifferent to anything but the big threats. I mean, she can still try, but she wouldn't have any better luck at than your average commoner, despite being in the class and Oath dedicated to seeking out evil with the magic powers they wield.
Again, I would suggest being careful with your use of Divine Sense. I would also suggest talking to one of tour party members to get them to help out. A buddy-cop team is always fun.

Edit: I hope I'm not coming off as aggressive. I happen to like this change, and I think it's perfectly easy to build a paladin who is a capable investigator. I understand if you're feeling frustrated because of the expectations you carried over from past editions, though.

[Aimeryan]

Interest replies, thank you all for your input.

I think I'm too much in the 3.5e mind set of Paladins - didn't play 4e, not sure 5e Paladin suits me. Seems more like a battering ram than a detective of evil.

I'll likely talk with my DM, maybe roll a new character or see if he has any changes he is happy to make.

[Unoriginal]

Seems more like a battering ram than a detective of evil.

You deliberately made so the character's didn't have the mental capacities to be a detective, something that the 3.X paladin never was by default, and are blaming it on the class.

But sure, if you don't like your character, changing is a good thing.

[Droodicus]

Just role play what you consider evil rather trying to force it to be a mechanical thing.
I played one who considered the greater evil humanoids over demons/undead etc. Why? Humans had made a choice to be evil so he considered it the far greater threat as it could be do much easier to hide rather than dealing with a demon who you know us inherently evil

[Aimeryan]

You deliberately made so the character's didn't have the mental capacities to be a detective, something that the 3.X paladin never was by default, and are blaming it on the class.

As I mentioned, I'm in the mindset for 3.5e where the Paladin class was specifically given magical tools to find evil, rather than relying on the evil showing itself first or going on highly deductive paths unrelated to the class. This is part of the class fantasy for me, as much as Wizards throwing fireballs or Druids changing forms.

I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree.

[EvilAnagram]

Interest replies, thank you all for your input.

I think I'm too much in the 3.5e mind set of Paladins - didn't play 4e, not sure 5e Paladin suits me. Seems more like a battering ram than a detective of evil.

I'll likely talk with my DM, maybe roll a new character or see if he has any changes he is happy to make.

Again, I get how it can be jarring coming from 3.5, and I hope I didn't come off as overly aggressive. I think talking to your DM is a good idea.

This edition relies much more heavily on skills, which is why paladins have Insight as a class skill. Between that and Divine Sense, they can be pretty useful as investigators, but they don't auto-succeed constantly as they did in the past.

[MaxWilson]

Interest replies, thank you all for your input.

I think I'm too much in the 3.5e mind set of Paladins - didn't play 4e, not sure 5e Paladin suits me. Seems more like a battering ram than a detective of evil.

If you want to be a detective of evil, note that Zone of Truth is on your spell list. Go back and find the weird guy in the sewers. Use your Divine Sense on him to detect if he is undead/fiendish/etc., not so much because that proves guilt or innocence but mostly for threat assessment's sake, so you can be prepared if he is dangerous. Tell him you'd like to ask him some questions about those tiny bones, and you don't have to look friendly while you're giving him this talk. Cast Zone of Truth (2nd level Paladin spell) and ask him whether he's responsible for those bones and what kind of creature they came from, "Would you hurt people if they were alone?", etc.

If he turns out to be a murderer, undead or otherwise, act appropriately.

If you just shrug your shoulders and say, "Wow, I guess I'll never know if he was a murderer or not," without bothering to follow up, may I suggest to you that even a Commoner would follow up, if he were actually concerned about the guy being a threat to others. You have the tools to be much more effective than that Commoner would be, both in rooting out evil (through various means, magical and intellectual) and in smiting it once it reveals itself. If you instead choose to be "indifferent to anything but the big threats", I will observe that that's a little bit of a passive aggressive attitude, not something I would expect from a paladin, Vengeance or otherwise.

[MrStabby]

I do think some people here are being needlessly abrasive. Whilst I won't be the kind of guy who labels someones opinions as "wrong, wrong and wrong again" I do think a shift of perspective is in order.

Sure the class description is a little at odds with the mechanics - I can see a fault if you need extra system mastery to understand that the character you are playing isn't what you first signed up for. If you were to play a class for rooting out and destroying evil I can see why the paladin would at first glance appear the natural choice.

I also get that it is actually a big deal to not have to tools to investigate non undead/fiend evil. You hate the undead, so the mortal guy feeding souls to a lich's phylactery is pretty much in your purview (as an example). I can get that it hurts that there doesn't seem to be a class that really matches your concept.

"Fixing" your character might be done by some multiclassing, depending on stats. Rogue dip for expertise will help you develop those skills you need; extra skill rather than raw intellect. Same for Knowledge cleric if you have the wisdom. If you don't have the stats for those bard is an option to pick up expertise, but you will need more levels.

If you want to work the concept there may be other options better suited to you. Ranger can take favoured enemy - consider revised if you can. Advantage on int rolls pertaining to undead might be a good fit. If you do want the expertise route then you can add both knowledge cleric and rogue levels pretty easily. Knowledge cleric will also give you nice things like zone of truth and turn undead - quite fitting. Wisdom, being the key for insight might also work well for you here.

A rogue/cleric multiclass might also suit you. OK combat potential, good skills and the supporting spells and CD that might fit your concept.

Bladesinger gives the great investigation platform through intelligence and some rock solid divination spells and can fire in with two attacks as you need. Appropriate background to give a liturgical feel and you might have something close to what you want. Valor/Swords bard will do the same, although in this case using expertise instead of Ind to boost investigation and with solid social skills to extract information. Zone of truth is on the list here as well..

If your DM is open to homebrew then a few simple switches might work - swap int and cha on the paladin and pick new skills. Mash the paladin and ranger together to get the thematic effects you want - or homebrew from scratch.

[Corran]

Haven't gone through all the replies, so apologies if this has been mentioned.
Sometimes, being charismatic is all you need to make people tell the truth. Punch noses and ask to find out what you want in a threatening way (ie intimidation check). If your intimidation roll is good enough, the enemy will start talking. Sure, they might omit something, so an insight roll is still pretty significant here, but intimidation alone will give you something to work with in many occasions. A similar case can be said about persuasion.

[Pex]

My Devotion Paladin of Torm is friend and ally with The Cult of the Dragon with Torm's Blessing. It has been a long campaign story arc of a series of peaceful contacts. The party is currently on a mission for them to recover stolen dragon eggs. I speak directly with a black dragon and a dracolich. We'll never agree philosophically, but circumstances of an invasion by fiends have brought us together. D&D has long since moved beyond a Paladin killing every evil thing that exists on sight. Sometimes players need to learn that too. Pick your battles.

[Beleriphon]

That's kind of my point though: not all evil creatures deserve to be murdered. Some just deserve pity and compassion. (Gollum comes to mind.)

If you're only kind to Good-aligned creatures, you don't qualify as "good" in my book. Goodness isn't just a team jersey.

And if Samwise was a vengeance paladin rather than a devotion paladin that might be true. Nothing actually stipulates that vengeance paladins have to be good, the whole oath is very much geared towards a neutralish (at best) bent, it could be good but nothing in it actually stipulates any such thing. The paladin of devotion is definitely geared towards the traditional mold however.


When did paladins ever have an ability for Detect Rampaging Evil?

Never, but celestials, fiends and undead are all things that aren't natural to the mortal world and tend to be supernatural sources of alignment "stuff". Plus the ability tells you if the creature is a celestial, fiend or undead.

[Unoriginal]

I do think some people here are being needlessly abrasive. Whilst I won't be the kind of guy who labels someones opinions as "wrong, wrong and wrong again"

None of my posts labeled anyone's opinions as wrong.

OP claimed something as fact, namely that the Paladin class didn't have the power to heal people, smite evil and undead, and protect innocents and allies. This three-parts claim was false.

There is a difference between stating an opinion and claiming a fact.

[Aimeryan]

None of my posts labeled anyone's opinions as wrong.

OP claimed something as fact, namely that the Paladin class didn't have the power to heal people, smite evil and undead, and protect innocents and allies. This three-parts claim was false.

There is a difference between stating an opinion and claiming a fact.

This is untrue. For what it is worth, I quoted text (with suitable emphasis) that the class used magical power to smite the wicked and protect innocents, which thus implied to me that they should have the means to determine who is wicked (so as to smite them) and who is innocent (so as to protect them).

They most surely can heal, smite and protect, once they have that knowledge - it is getting that knowledge that is the issue, for me.

~~~

Anyhow, I spoke to my DM and we came up with a houserule that should work for us; I can trade out my Divine Sense for the ability to use Charisma on Insight checks. My DM was pleased he would now be able to use Undead and Fiends with subtlety now that the extremely narrow-focused but all-revealing Divine Sense is out of the picture, and I am happy that I can use a stat that I actually favour as a Paladin to make Insight checks.

Looking back over this thread, I feel that a lot of... push-back was due to how OP at will Detect Evil was in 3.5e and how it is a good thing it is not in 5e - and thinking upon it, I agree with this. My issue was that the loss of such a nuclear weapon of a tool was replaced with an artillery gun that only shot in one direction - powerful, but very narrow-focused. What I think is far better for the class is something broad but of moderate power - a combat rifle of a tool, maybe. Hopefully, Charisma-to-Insight will be that tool for the Paladin class.

[MaxWilson]

Anyhow, I spoke to my DM and we came up with a houserule that should work for us; I can trade out my Divine Sense for the ability to use Charisma on Insight checks. My DM was pleased he would now be able to use Undead and Fiends with subtlety now that the extremely narrow-focused but all-revealing Divine Sense is out of the picture, and I am happy that I can use a stat that I actually favour as a Paladin to make Insight checks.

Looking back over this thread, I feel that a lot of... push-back was due to how OP at will Detect Evil was in 3.5e and how it is a good thing it is not in 5e - and thinking upon it, I agree with this. My issue was that the loss of such a nuclear weapon of a tool was replaced with an artillery gun that only shot in one direction - powerful, but very narrow-focused. What I think is far better for the class is something broad but of moderate power - a combat rifle of a tool, maybe. Hopefully, Charisma-to-Insight will be that tool for the Paladin class.

Zone of Truth too.

[Unoriginal]

Well I sincerely hope you're happier with what you and your Dm have decided. We play the game to have fun, after all.

Though I must insist, it's "using CHA to discerne lies, with Insight proficiency" not "use Insight to discerne lies, with CHA as bonus)". It'll be important only if you once have a Paladin use this houserule without proficiency in Insight, but it should still be noted.

In any case, have a great campaign!

[Corran]

They most surely can heal, smite and protect, once they have that knowledge - it is getting that knowledge that is the issue, for me.
I think you place too much importance on the success or failure of an insight check. IMO insight does not give you any knowledge per se, more like it is closer to a gut feeling. Then it is up to you to decide how much value your character places to his instinct. Additionally, paladins (especially of the vengeance oath) don't have to act reactively. I actually think it is much more fitting for a paladin to act proactively against potential threats, so that innocent lives wont end up being endangered. So for example, in the situation you described, you could have asked for this individual to follow you up to the town where it would be easier (with the help of NPCs that might even know that person) to clarify more of his intentions. And if he refused, unless his explanation was rock solid (and keep in mind that insight rolls are not even necessary for that), you would have every right to force him to comply.

[DKing9114]

I think you place too much importance on the success or failure of an insight check. IMO insight does not give you any knowledge per se, more like it is closer to a gut feeling. Then it is up to you to decide how much value your character places to his instinct. Additionally, paladins (especially of the vengeance oath) don't have to act reactively. I actually think it is much more fitting for a paladin to act proactively against potential threats, so that innocent lives wont end up being endangered. So for example, in the situation you described, you could have asked for this individual to follow you up to the town where it would be easier (with the help of NPCs that might even know that person) to clarify more of his intentions. And if he refused, unless his explanation was rock solid (and keep in mind that insight rolls are not even necessary for that), you would have every right to force him to comply.

If you've asked all those questions, your character must be at least suspicious of this guy. You don't need to rely on a dozen potentially botched insight checks the situation looks that shifty. In fact, given how sickly he looks, bring him to a temple and offer to pay for his treatment. Or just attempt to use 5 points of lay on hands to cure his disease.

Beyond that, though, keep in mind that in 5e, you can do far more than what is listed on your character sheet and class features. Talk to your DM about using in-game resources to improve your ability to identify undead-you could spend gold and time researching in libraries and finding experts on the subject, in exchange for proficiency in Int checks to identify or recall information about undead creatures. If your character is already willing to enter into a warlock pact with the Raven Queen, try asking her for supernatural knowledge, in exchange for some task of the DM's choosing. The abilities given to you mechanically are only the beginning of what you have available to play with.