ToB grappling?

[Kaelik]

Are there any particular ToB classes/maneuvers/boosts that are particularly beneficial to a grappling build?

I've got a set up going for an encounter (scalable CR like most of my important/fun ones) involving a halfling dagger thrower (Rouge sub/Whisperknife/Master Thrower) and some kind of grappler build. I was just wondering where to go with the grappling character.

[Shas aia Toriia]

Reaping mauler, from complete something, and monk as well.

That's all I can think of off the top of my head.

[Kaelik]

Reaping mauler, from complete something, and monk as well.

That's all I can think of off the top of my head.

Right, except that Reaping Mauler makes Monk pretty much useless, and I was looking for something else to get to Reaping Mauler with, and possibly continue on past it.

[Shas aia Toriia]

Sorry, how does reaping mauler make monk useless? Is this for a PC or an enemy we're talking about?

Besides, there are feats that allow you to multi-class while a monk or a paladin with no penalties.

[Iku Rex]

Crushing Weight of the Mountain stance (lv3 SD, constrict for 2d6+1.5 Str mod) and Wolverine Stance (lv3 TC, use 1-H weapon in grapple).

[Raolin_Fenix]

Try the Drunken Master. I think that's Complete Warrior -- same as Reaping Mauler.

It's just good times. =D

[Feralgeist]

be a swordsage and use the maneuvers from the setting sun. They're like grappling, but BETTER! some stone dragon maneuvers are pretty sweet as well.

Reaping mauler IS pretty good......grapple death attack...mmm...

[Kaelik]

OMG! I've been ToBed in a thread asking about Tome of Battle. Never thought I'd see the day.

(ToBed=Don't play Fighter. Play Warblade. Much better)

How, pray tell, are Setting Sun maneuvers like grappling, but better? I would like full BAB progression. I would also like to grapple, both because it denies dex bonus (for the thrower), and because it is grappling. I want a guy who grapples, not one who hits people.

[Merlin the Tuna]

CharOp's Short Guide to Grappling (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=849315). Good stuff if you're gonna go grappling. And on the subject of the Reaping Mauler in particular...


Non-synergistic Prestige Class:
Reaping Mauler. Never ever ever take Reaping Mauler. It requires Clever Wrestling. Clever Wrestling has a prerequisite of Medium or smaller. Therefore, if you drink a potion of Enlarge Person, or otherwise enlarge (which grapplers should always be shooting for), your entire "grappling prestige class" turns off. It's idiotic. Plus, its abilities all suck, except the +2 to grapple checks you get across 4 class levels, and even that is pretty mediocre compared with what you get for, say, 5 levels of Bear Warrior (Large Size, Improved Grab, and greatly improved stats).

If the DM rules that reaping mauler 'stays on' when you become large, is it an okay choice? What else would need to be changed to make it a viable choice for a PrC?No, it's still not great. The key reasons why:
1) It only grants a +2 bonus to grapple checks across 4 or 5 levels. Almost any other option you pick will do better than this. Warshaper gives +2 to checks and damage for 2 levels, for example. It's very milquetoast.
2) Combats are over in a few rounds in D&D, especially in high level combats. Having to wait multiple rounds for special abilities to trigger is very suboptimal.
3) The two free feats (which aren't great) are negated by the cost of two totally useless feats. If you're taking Monk to get IUS, you get IG for free anyway, which makes the bonus IG pointless.
4) The Reaping Mauler is really optimized for escaping grapples, not winning combats with grapples. Between Clever Wrestling and Counter Grapple and the Escape Artist prerequisite, they are designed to escape from grapples. However, that's not what you want from a grappling specialist. You want to be able to pick up your opponents and snap their puny bodies across your knees, and then fling them aside and go after their friends.
5) The DCs are probably going to be very low on the special abilities.
6) If you're going for sleeper lock, you can do the same thing, but better, with Justicar, as there's no save on Hog Tie or Improved Hog Tie -- you just have to beat them on a grapple check, and being tied up is almost as good as unconscious. Plus, it's relatively permanent.So, in short...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v289/MerlintheTuna/Random%20Images/ackbar.jpg

[Person_Man]

I suggest my Frozen Dwarf Hulk Smash (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50588) build. It has very high AC and unarmed damage. It'll work well as a grapple build.

But really, being an effective grappler isn't about a specific PrC. Its about size and feats.

Pick up Scorpion's Grasp from Sandstorm (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/177390000). It grants you a free grapple attempt whenever you hit.

Another strong option is to play a Goliath or Half-Giant Psychic Warrior. They have a +4 to Grapple checks thanks to Powerful Build. Use the augemented Expansion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/expansion.htm), and you'll gain an additional +8.

Also, look at the the PHBII. Pick up Combat Focus, Combat Vigor, and Combat Stability. Now you have +4 to your Will Saves, Fast Healing 4, and +8 on checks or rolls to resist bull rush, disarm, grapple, overrun, and trip attempts made against you (so that your enemy can never break free when its his action and he makes a grapple check against you).

Remember that you can make a full attack when you grapple an enemy. Theres a series of articles on the WotC website about it.

[Lord Tataraus]

How, pray tell, are Setting Sun maneuvers like grappling, but better? I would like full BAB progression. I would also like to grapple, both because it denies dex bonus (for the thrower), and because it is grappling. I want a guy who grapples, not one who hits people.

Because you throw them. It's actually based around tripping. For Mighty Throw (1st lvl strike) you make a melee touch attack, then make a trip attempt using dex or str with a +4, if you win, you throw your opponent 10ft where he falls prone. The cooler ones that deal damage start at 3rd with Devastating throw that deals 2d6 when he lands, and you can throw him farther than 10ft if win the trip by a lot. Comet throw (4th lvl) is the same as devastating throw except it deals 4d6 damage and you can throw him on top of someone else to deal 4d6 damage to that guy and both are prone (though a str-based ref save halves damage and negates prone).

[TimeWizard]

I second the Setting Sun. Each manuever level has a new throw, and their non-throw abilities aqre pretty cool. And at level 17 when you get maneuve level nine you can become a (metaphorical) tornado of twisting, throwing, grappling doom.

[Kaelik]

I second the Setting Sun. Each manuever level has a new throw, and their non-throw abilities aqre pretty cool. And at level 17 when you get maneuve level nine you can become a (metaphorical) tornado of twisting, throwing, grappling doom.

Except that completely negates all the benefit to the SA Halfling thrower who now never gets his SA.

[Iku Rex]

If you want a truly badass grappler shapechanging is usually the way to go.

A wildshaping nature's warrior (CWar) with the Serpent's Coils ability is difficult to beat. A wizard polymorphed into a cave troll (or treant), using balor nimbus (SC) and fearsome grapple (SC) can be even harder to get away from. If you don't want to cheese out with polymorph the Jotunbrud (RacFaer) feat, or the +1 LA goliaths and half-giants make you virtual-Large. A half-ogre (+2 LA) also works. Lords of Madness have some aberrant feats that add to grapple. Gloves of Titan's Grip (ExpPsiH, MIC) add +8 to grapple checks.

[Kaelik]

Okay. While I thank you all for your advice. The thing is, this is an encounter. For my PCs. They are not minmaxers of doom. I do not want to kill them all with these two characters of comparable level. A Wildshaping Natures Warrior or Raging Bear Warrior would be a very good grappler. And would kill the PCs. Setting Sun would result in no SA from the thrower halfling. I need a grappler that isn't that good, and is absolutely not a spellcaster. This isn't about being the best grappler, it is about an encounter, the flavor of which requires a lack of spellcasting.

Thank you all for your help, I'm pretty sure that given all the things mentioned I can come up with a pretty good Grappler for this encounter now.

[Quietus]

Okay. While I thank you all for your advice. The thing is, this is an encounter. For my PCs. They are not minmaxers of doom. I do not want to kill them all with these two characters of comparable level. A Wildshaping Natures Warrior or Raging Bear Warrior would be a very good grappler. And would kill the PCs. Setting Sun would result in no SA from the thrower halfling. I need a grappler that isn't that good, and is absolutely not a spellcaster. This isn't about being the best grappler, it is about an encounter, the flavor of which requires a lack of spellcasting.

Thank you all for your help, I'm pretty sure that given all the things mentioned I can come up with a pretty good Grappler for this encounter now.

If this is the case, why not just make a full-plate toting Fighter with Improved Grapple and a potion of Enlarge Person?

[Feralgeist]

you're praying, im telling.


It's only better cause it doesnt take 1241936532895-1385178-967-18267182967107127851679651927865796 rolls.

That's pretty much it.

[Funkyodor]

Heh, heh. Rope of Entanglement is a mediocre grappler that has a 'meh' survivability rating. Have one grappler waiting (maybe a human barbarian with Rage, Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, and a potion of bulls strength, something not super optimized but better than some fighter mook), and if there is more than one opponent (which against PC's there might be) a rope jumps off the halfling thrower to entangle another guy. If the PC's take out the rope, then that's just less treasure they get to keep. If the halfling takes it out, then thats less treasure the PC's get to keep. Frustrating but less leathal than it could be.