Pack Lord & Animal Companions

[Palanan]

I’m trying to apply the Pack Lord archetype to a third-level druid, and I’m getting extremely confused about how exactly to do this.

In particular, I’m not sure what qualifies as a “first-level companion.” The druid was my mainstay in 3.5, but Pathfinder has changed animal companions past the point that I can make any sense of them.

I was assuming a first-level companion meant a 1 HD animal, but apparently that isn’t the case. So…how does this work now? And what animal companions would be available to a third-level Pack Lord ?

[Eldonauran]

You are assigning 'effective druid levels' to your animal companion(s). For a third level druid, you have three effective druid levels. You could have any of the following:

One animal companion (3 effective druid levels)
Two animal companions (one with 2 effective levels, and one with 1 effective level)
Three animal companions (all three with 1 effective level)

To determine the stats of the animal companion, just look at the druid animal companion table and match up how many effective druid levels you have assigned. If you have three companions, you will have three 2HD animal companions (as 1 effective druid level supplies a 2 HD animal companion).

Pathfinder, for the most part, did away with 3.5's method of acquiring more powerful animal companions by counting as lower levels for the ability chart. There are still some ways to get something similar, but Pathfinder simply gave the animal companions a specific 'level' in which they grew more powerful (depending on the creature).

[Omnificer]

Animal Companions (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid/animal-companions)

Animal companions have stats based off the level of the Druid. So, without Pack Lord at level 3 you'd use the level 3 stats. With Pack Lord, you could have three companions, but you'd use the level 1 stats. Most everything you need for animal companions is on that chart in the link.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Eldonauran
If you have three companions, you will have three 2HD animal companions (as 1 effective druid level supplies a 2 HD animal companion).

Okay, thanks. This clarifies things much better than the text in the CRB.

Do we roll for hit points for the animal companion, then?

[Eldonauran]

Okay, thanks. This clarifies things much better than the text in the CRB.

Do we roll for hit points for the animal companion, then?Negative. Only PCs (Players) roll hitpoints. All NPCs and even animal companions take the average HP per level, unless your DM allows for other methods. You animal companion would start with 5+4= 9 HP, plus whatever bonus they receive from their Constitution bonus.

A tip: If you want to keep one of your animal companions relevant in combat, and performing at your full druid level, take the feat Boon Companion to give it an extra +4 effective level (max = your actual level).

[Rynjin]

The thing I've always found funny about Boon Companion (that they didn't fix when they reprinted it in UW) is that Druid and Hunter technically don't have the "Animal Companion class feature". They have Nature's Bond and Hunter's Bond, respectively, which grant an Animal Companion, but do not (unlike archetypes from some classes like the Sacred Huntmaster Inquisitor) have "Animal Companion" as a class feature, meaning by strict RAW they don't qualify for it.

Unlikely you'll ever play with a Gm that will screw you that way, but it's fun to note.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Eldonauran
Negative. Only PCs (Players) roll hitpoints. All NPCs and even animal companions take the average HP per level, unless your DM allows for other methods. You animal companion would start with 5+4= 9 HP, plus whatever bonus they receive from their Constitution bonus.

Thanks, this is very helpful.


Originally Posted by Eldonauran
A tip: If you want to keep one of your animal companions relevant in combat, and performing at your full druid level, take the feat Boon Companion to give it an extra +4 effective level (max = your actual level).

This is good to keep in mind, although this particular character is a single-classed druid, so I don’t think the feat would help in this case.

[Psyren]

This is good to keep in mind, although this particular character is a single-classed druid, so I don’t think the feat would help in this case.

I don't think you understood the advice here fully - the idea is that, because you're dividing up your druid level as a Packmaster (and therefore that none of your companions are getting the maximum benefit of your druid levels) that you can choose one to benefit from Boon Companion and negate the reduction. The feat even specifically works on characters who have multiple companions (rather than just folks multiclassing out of druid for other reasons), so this trick seems to have been intended.

[Luckmann]

Yeah don't miss out on Boon Companion. If you intend to depend on your animal companion, you might even want to take it more than once. If you're a level 10 Druid with two equal animal companions, they'd normally have benefits as if you were level 5.

2x Boon Companion gets that up to 9.

[Psyren]

Yeah don't miss out on Boon Companion. If you intend to depend on your animal companion, you might even want to take it more than once. If you're a level 10 Druid with two equal animal companions, they'd normally have benefits as if you were level 5.

2x Boon Companion gets that up to 9.

It falls off even more as you level though. A 20 druid with two companions will have each set at druid 10, and even if you take Boon Companion twice, that will only get both to 14 - a big stat deficit compared to what a level 20 game is throwing at you. Unless you're in a game that is going to stop at 10, Your best bet is to have a "primary companion" at 16 (boosted to 20) and use any leftover companions as scouts, pets, or other noncombat roles.

[stack]

I think the better question is: why packlord? Unless you have a specific plan for using weaker companions (whether a crowd of lesser companions or a single full strength one (via boon companion) and one or two weak companions), you may be better off with a base druid. Animal companions tend to trail off a bit as levels get higher; reducing the companion's strength further magnifies the issue.
It is a great archetype in an E6 type game though.

[CharonsHelper]

I think the better question is: why packlord? Unless you have a specific plan for using weaker companions (whether a crowd of lesser companions or a single full strength one (via boon companion) and one or two weak companions), you may be better off with a base druid. Animal companions tend to trail off a bit as levels get higher; reducing the companion's strength further magnifies the issue.
It is a great archetype in an E6 type game though.

With Boon Companion they can get one up to combat effectiveness and have 1-2 others for utility/scouting. It probably still falls off around level 12-14ish (that specialized 'level 4' companion stops being able to scout effectively - though I suppose you could take Boon Companion a second time) but most games never get that high anyway, so it's probably a moot point.

[stack]

With Boon Companion they can get one up to combat effectiveness and have 1-2 others for utility/scouting. It probably still falls off around level 12-14ish (that specialized 'level 4' companion stops being able to scout effectively - though I suppose you could take Boon Companion a second time) but most games never get that high anyway, so it's probably a moot point.

I specifically mentioned one being at full strength via boon companion. My question is more directed at what he plans to do with the weaker companions. Its easier to give advise if you know the goal.

[CharonsHelper]

I specifically mentioned one being at full strength via boon companion. My question is more directed at what he plans to do with the weaker companions.

Right - hence my mention...


...and have 1-2 others for utility/scouting.

There are some companion choices which are pretty terrible for straight combat but are pretty awesome for scouting and utility.

Though, I suppose a mount for a caster focused cleric could work too since it would mostly be staying out of the fray - like a bat for a small druid or some such.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Psyren
The feat even specifically works on characters who have multiple companions (rather than just folks multiclassing out of druid for other reasons), so this trick seems to have been intended.

Not sure if I’m following here. As I read the feat, it can’t increase your effective druid level above your character level, so this doesn’t seem to have much value for a single-classed druid.

To me it seems like Shaping Focus, which is only useful for a multiclassed druid.


Originally Posted by stack
My question is more directed at what he plans to do with the weaker companions. Its easier to give advise if you know the goal.

Third-level druid with three first-level animal companions. Although if there’s an “Extra Companion” feat I could be convinced to add that for a fourth.


Originally Posted by CharonsHelper
There are some companion choices which are pretty terrible for straight combat but are pretty awesome for scouting and utility.

Any suggestions for choices which are good for scouting and utility?

.

[grarrrg]

Not sure if I’m following here. As I read the feat, it can’t increase your effective druid level above your character level, so this doesn’t seem to have much value for a single-classed druid

It's an 'exact words' abuse thing:
"The abilities of your animal companion or familiar are calculated as though your class were 4 levels higher, to a maximum effective druid level equal to your character level."

_One specific companion_ gets a +4 boost, and since the feat only cares about that _one companion_, you get to effectively ignore the other companions, because the _one companion_ isn't higher than your character level.

(I'm personally against this interpretation, but that's the basics of it. And I admit abusing it doesn't wind up all that OP in most situations)

[CharonsHelper]

Any suggestions for choices which are good for scouting and utility?


The Chameleon's +10 racial bonus to stealth is nice - and even at low level the Grab ability could be situationally useful.

Mostly though - I'd stick with the flying ones. The bat's blindsense is extremely handy, but the small ones are sneakier and harder to hit - the Egret even gets a 20% miss chance against ranged attacks.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by grarrrg
It's an 'exact words' abuse thing….

(I'm personally against this interpretation, but that's the basics of it….)

Thanks, I appreciate it. I’m with you on this one.


Originally Posted by CharonsHelper
Mostly though - I'd stick with the flying ones. The bat's blindsense is extremely handy, but the small ones are sneakier and harder to hit - the Egret even gets a 20% miss chance against ranged attacks.

Okay, thanks.

Is there a list of first-level animal companions? I’m still not quite sure which ones would qualify.

[stack]

All animal companions are available at level 1, then get additional abilities later on. The animal companion rules were linked above.

[CharonsHelper]

And I admit abusing it doesn't wind up all that OP in most situations)

I could see it being a bit OP up to level 8-9 if you used it to keep 2 animals up to nearly full level and use them in combat. But so long as your group sticks to the PFS rule of only allowing 1 pet in combat at a time (to keep from slowing the game to a crawl) it should be okay.

As GM I might rule that the secondary animals couldn't get within 2 levels or so of your max to prevent such shenanigans. And I might not allow it to be taken twice despite it saying it's allowed. At level 6 you could burn your feats and have 3 full levelled animal companions.

Though frankly - if you really want to get OP with animals at low level, it's easier to just buy a trained combat tiger (or bison - they're not quite as good as the tiger, but far cheaper).

[Psyren]

Not sure if I’m following here. As I read the feat, it can’t increase your effective druid level above your character level, so this doesn’t seem to have much value for a single-classed druid.

It's not doing that - for the one companion you're boosting to be equal to character level. It works exactly the same as having two animal companions from a non-stacking multiclass combination, e.g. a Hunter 5/Cavalier 5 with a bird and a horse. You could take Boon Companion twice there and have your bird and horse be the equivalent of Druid 9 (each less than your character level of 10, but higher than your effective druid levels of 5 each.)

Anyway, if you don't buy that reading for whatever reason then Packlord is even more of a waste of time; even your primary companion will be irrelevant for any practical purpose, unless you're picking the archetype to be cute and don't care about effectiveness, in which case go nuts, though I'd question the benefit of asking for any advice that isn't "reroll."

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by stack
All animal companions are available at level 1, then get additional abilities later on. The animal companion rules were linked above.

I’m aware the rules were linked, but I’m asking because I wasn’t clear on what the rules were saying.


Originally Posted by Psyren
…unless you're picking the archetype to be cute and don't care about effectiveness, in which case go nuts, though I'd question the benefit of asking for any advice that isn't "reroll."

I’m honestly not sure why you’re being snippy here. I’m trying to understand a set of changes from 3.5 that I haven’t encountered before, in the context of applying them to an archetype that looked interesting. I’m not sure why you would call that “being cute,” but the tone certainly isn’t helpful.

[Psyren]

I’m honestly not sure why you’re being snippy here. I’m trying to understand a set of changes from 3.5 that I haven’t encountered before, in the context of applying them to an archetype that looked interesting. I’m not sure why you would call that “being cute,” but the tone certainly isn’t helpful.

"Being cute" wasn't directed at you - it's the only descriptor I can think of for an animal companion that is practically incapable of level-appropriate combat. It would be a cosmetic pet, very much in the Warcraft sense, and thus valuable only for its cute looks.

As for my tone, I apologize if I came off short - but CharonsHelper and I were trying to, well, help you. Being met with "I don't think it works that way" felt dismissive and frustrating, especially on the heels of agreeing with another poster calling it "abuse" when, again, it was clearly intended. We might as well not have posted and left you to flounder, you know?

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Psyren
Being met with "I don't think it works that way" felt dismissive and frustrating, especially on the heels of agreeing with another poster calling it "abuse" when, again, it was clearly intended.

I don’t mean to be dismissive of your advice, and in fact I’d been hoping not to argue about the interpretation of that feat.

More generally, I find the PF version of animal companions to be eye-wateringly strange compared to the 3.5 version. For the most part I like the changes they’ve made from 3.5, but I just can’t quite follow their approach to animal companions.

[stack]

Best thing to do is forget what you know about 3.5 animal companions when it comes to PF. PF animal companions are defined by the mini stat-blocks and the animal companion table in the animal companion rules. They share names with some creatures in the bestiary, but don't look at bestiary entries when for anything about animal companions. A level one druid with a bear companion has a small bear with:

Starting Statistics: Size Small; Speed 40 ft.; AC +2 natural armor; Attack bite (1d4), 2 claws (1d3); Ability Scores Str 15, Dex 15, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6; Special Qualities low-light vision, scent.

At druid level 4, it gets: Size Medium; Attack bite (1d6), 2 claws (1d4); Ability Scores Str +4, Dex -2, Con +2.

It never becomes large, dire, brown/kodiak/polar. You can't look at the general bestiary entries for bears, they don't apply to animal companions. On the up side, all the companions are designed to be available form level 1, so you don't have to swap animals out every couple levels; your favorite pet can stay with you all game.

[Psyren]

I don’t mean to be dismissive of your advice, and in fact I’d been hoping not to argue about the interpretation of that feat.

I'm not looking to argue either, but the obvious question becomes - if you want to toss it out, what are you left with? A gaggle of animals that are individually too weak to impact the game, from where I'm sitting. (Or alternatively, you stick with one animal, and the archetype itself was a waste.) Again, not trying to sound short, but it seems like a lot of effort to go to, just to shoot oneself in the foot.



More generally, I find the PF version of animal companions to be eye-wateringly strange compared to the 3.5 version. For the most part I like the changes they’ve made from 3.5, but I just can’t quite follow their approach to animal companions.

The same reason they changed polymorph - because they realized what WotC should have realized, that letting players grab statblocks wholesale from the monster manual to add to their characters is difficult to balance (in either direction.) So instead they made a standard quasi-cohort that scales with you and that you slap various animal templates on top of for flavoring and differentiation.

They've taken the concept further in Starfinder - not only do companions work like this, but now summons do too. You start with a standardized base formed out of elemental planestuff, then apply a template like "Agathion" or "Inevitable" or "Water Elemental" to it that determines its final appearance and abilities.

[Luckmann]

It falls off even more as you level though. A 20 druid with two companions will have each set at druid 10, and even if you take Boon Companion twice, that will only get both to 14 - a big stat deficit compared to what a level 20 game is throwing at you. Unless you're in a game that is going to stop at 10, Your best bet is to have a "primary companion" at 16 (boosted to 20) and use any leftover companions as scouts, pets, or other noncombat roles.
Oh, yeah, don't get me wrong, it's not optimal, it's just.. sensible in relation to the concept as described. The fall-off will be serious either way, but not every game is high-optimization rocket-tag.

[Florian]

More generally, I find the PF version of animal companions to be eye-wateringly strange compared to the 3.5 version. For the most part I like the changes they’ve made from 3.5, but I just can’t quite follow their approach to animal companions.

It´s actually quite simple. Step 1: Forget about the Bestiary entries.

Everything related to animal companions uses the "Companion Class" as its core, the specific animal type is just a template that's applied to that "class".

Check this out:
Companion: https://www.aonprd.com/ClassDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Companion
Templates: https://www.aonprd.com/DruidCompanions.aspx?ItemName=All

Same principle with Shapechange, Wild Shape or various "Form"-type spells. Instead of going for the Bestiary, the spells provide the template you apply directly to your character, nothing more.

So, Pack Lord is a pretty weak concept in PF, because an AC can never be better than it´s companion class level and once you start dividing that up, they rapidly fall behind the curve.

That said, there're two exceptions to it:
1) You have a Skald in the party.
2) Some Barbarian and Fighter archetypes and builds don't come with a companion class feature of their own, but can "power up" even very weak ones to stay competitive. Mounted Fury, Burn Rider or Dragoon come to mind.