High-level Eldritch Knight damage potential

[hwem]

I understand Eldritch Knight (EK) uses spells largely for defensive purposes.
I was told EK's damage potential isn't as good as some of the other fighter subclasses.
However, I was told by one of my friends (I'm not sure if he's right due to the very nature of his personality lol) that EK actually has almost as high damage potential (not sure if NOVA or DPR) as the battlemaster, if not more, with some cantrips and shadow blade.
So my question is...how is EK's NOVA and/or DPR at higher levels (my group has been doing LOTS of high level campaigns).

I apologize for the trouble but I'd really appreciate the help!

[Foxhound438]

shadow blade lets you swing around a 3d8+dex+duelling sword as your triple or quadrouple attack action with an action surge, so the damage is certainly there... a 20th level EK can attack 8 times for 3d8+7, average of 164. On the following round, if you happen to take hold person as one of your off school spells, you can cast said hold person with the target saving at disadvantage, and then you get to make one attack as a bonus action and 4 more with your second action surge, and if the spell landed all of those will crit on hit for 6d8+7, so average 170 and then whoever else on your team can get free crits will owe those extra damage dice to your efforts.

A battlemaster who's using great weapon master and polearm master with precision attacks as needed would be swinging 8 attacks at 1d10+15 and one at 1d4+15, averaging 181.5. Probably not a bad idea to throw in a tripping attack on the first natural hit to get advantage for the round, so we'll call it 188. Probably rinse and repeat the next turn.

The damage is slightly in favor of battlemaster, but both of those are really high damage outputs. At lower levels there's maybe some points where you can use war magic and booming/green flame blade to eek out a little more damage early, but you say high levels so I'm focusing on that.

Both of these are ignoring chance to miss, but with precision attack on the battlemaster cancelling the drop from GWM where needed I'll just say that accuracy is about the same for both. Maybe it's slightly in favor of one or the other, but that would require a lot of math for what I suspect would be very close tie.

Downside for the battlemaster is that that particular turn could very easily burn a huge chunk of their maneuver dice, so after that turn depending on the enemy it might not be as viable to continue swinging great weapon master. They do have a serious upside though in the ability to use magic weapons, which if every campaign I've played in at high levels is something to go off of they'll have more magic halberds than they can fit in a bag of holding by 20th.

A pretty big upside to the eldritch knight using shadow blade is psychic damage being almost never resisted. Extra points if you can get advantage with the shadow blade's dim light clause, as that can definitely offset the negative of not having a magic bonus to attack and damage. If I were building specifically to use shadow blade I would definitely take high elf as my race for having darkvision, plus an extra cantrip.

Personally I would play eldritch knight because spells gives a much better selection of strategic options than maneuvers will, assuming you have few enough encounters to spread your spell slots across. It might be better to forego the shadow blade completely since you can still do comparable damage by taking sharpshooter and using archery style to mitigate the accuracy loss, and then you can use your concentration on things like fear and storm sphere, and also have misty step for that off-school 2nd level spell.

In case you're interested, the following spells are what I would take on an eldritch knight: Cantrips: create bonfire, dancing lights, mage hand; L1: absorb elements, shield, mage armor, tasha's hideous laughter; L2: Misty Step, Aganzzar's Scorcher, Warding Wind, Shatter; L3: Wall of Water/Sand, Fireball, Fear; L4: Storm Sphere, Greater Invis. I put this together with an archer in mind, so it might be good if you prefer melee to take booming blade in place of one of the cantrips.

[MaxWilson]

shadow blade lets you swing around a 3d8+dex+duelling sword as your triple or quadrouple attack action with an action surge, so the damage is certainly there... a 20th level EK can attack 8 times for 3d8+7, average of 164. On the following round, if you happen to take hold person as one of your off school spells, you can cast said hold person with the target saving at disadvantage, and then you get to make one attack as a bonus action and 4 more with your second action surge, and if the spell landed all of those will crit on hit for 6d8+7, so average 170 and then whoever else on your team can get free crits will owe those extra damage dice to your efforts.

A battlemaster who's using great weapon master and polearm master with precision attacks as needed would be swinging 8 attacks at 1d10+15 and one at 1d4+15, averaging 181.5. Probably not a bad idea to throw in a tripping attack on the first natural hit to get advantage for the round, so we'll call it 188. Probably rinse and repeat the next turn.

The damage is slightly in favor of battlemaster, but both of those are really high damage outputs. At lower levels there's maybe some points where you can use war magic and booming/green flame blade to eek out a little more damage early, but you say high levels so I'm focusing on that.

Both of these are ignoring chance to miss, but with precision attack on the battlemaster cancelling the drop from GWM where needed I'll just say that accuracy is about the same for both.

You can't concentrate on both Hold Person and Shadow Blade simultaneously.

That said, EKs are fine. Battlemasters will have a slightly better nova due to Precision Attack/etc., but EKs will have a better sustained DPR, especially if they leverage spells like Shadow Blade or Magic Weapon or (for ranged attacks) Darkness. They're also much, much harder to kill. And the most important factor IMO is that in a campaign without magical weapons, the EK doesn't get his damage halved against demons/gricks/etc. and nullified against golems/rakshasas/etc., since he can just use his bonus action on Magic Weapon before shooting the monster full of arrows.

If I knew that magical longbows were guaranteed in a given campaign and would never be damaged or destroyed, ever, I might be tempted to go Battlemaster/Rogue. But without that guarantee, EK takes the cake IMO.

[Tanarii]

I understand Eldritch Knight (EK) uses spells largely for defensive purposes.
I was told EK's damage potential isn't as good as some of the other fighter subclasses.You understood and were told wrong. Any time someone tells you EKs are lower damage potential than other Fighter subclasses, what they are actually trying to tell you is the Great Weapon Master and Sharpshooter Feats are overpowered. Because EKs using their spells sacrifice attacks, and the spells they replace them with cannot compete with multiple GWM or SS attack. Especially the classic EK attack routine of War Magic rotations with undercut saving throws, which is generally (but not always) more DPR than extra attack.

EKs were designed to add some AoE and ranged blasting to a (generally) single target melee class. They do that quite effectively. They also have access to Shield, which is a nice bonus for emergencies. After initial design, supplements changed the way the typical EK works quite a lot, mainly because they added the SCAG cantrips and Absorb Elements spell.

[hwem]

shadow blade lets you swing around a 3d8+dex+duelling sword as your triple or quadrouple attack action with an action surge, so the damage is certainly there... a 20th level EK can attack 8 times for 3d8+7, average of 164. On the following round, if you happen to take hold person as one of your off school spells, you can cast said hold person with the target saving at disadvantage, and then you get to make one attack as a bonus action and 4 more with your second action surge, and if the spell landed all of those will crit on hit for 6d8+7, so average 170 and then whoever else on your team can get free crits will owe those extra damage dice to your efforts.

A battlemaster who's using great weapon master and polearm master with precision attacks as needed would be swinging 8 attacks at 1d10+15 and one at 1d4+15, averaging 181.5. Probably not a bad idea to throw in a tripping attack on the first natural hit to get advantage for the round, so we'll call it 188. Probably rinse and repeat the next turn.

The damage is slightly in favor of battlemaster, but both of those are really high damage outputs. At lower levels there's maybe some points where you can use war magic and booming/green flame blade to eek out a little more damage early, but you say high levels so I'm focusing on that.

Both of these are ignoring chance to miss, but with precision attack on the battlemaster cancelling the drop from GWM where needed I'll just say that accuracy is about the same for both. Maybe it's slightly in favor of one or the other, but that would require a lot of math for what I suspect would be very close tie.

Downside for the battlemaster is that that particular turn could very easily burn a huge chunk of their maneuver dice, so after that turn depending on the enemy it might not be as viable to continue swinging great weapon master. They do have a serious upside though in the ability to use magic weapons, which if every campaign I've played in at high levels is something to go off of they'll have more magic halberds than they can fit in a bag of holding by 20th.

A pretty big upside to the eldritch knight using shadow blade is psychic damage being almost never resisted. Extra points if you can get advantage with the shadow blade's dim light clause, as that can definitely offset the negative of not having a magic bonus to attack and damage. If I were building specifically to use shadow blade I would definitely take high elf as my race for having darkvision, plus an extra cantrip.

Personally I would play eldritch knight because spells gives a much better selection of strategic options than maneuvers will, assuming you have few enough encounters to spread your spell slots across. It might be better to forego the shadow blade completely since you can still do comparable damage by taking sharpshooter and using archery style to mitigate the accuracy loss, and then you can use your concentration on things like fear and storm sphere, and also have misty step for that off-school 2nd level spell.

In case you're interested, the following spells are what I would take on an eldritch knight: Cantrips: create bonfire, dancing lights, mage hand; L1: absorb elements, shield, mage armor, tasha's hideous laughter; L2: Misty Step, Aganzzar's Scorcher, Warding Wind, Shatter; L3: Wall of Water/Sand, Fireball, Fear; L4: Storm Sphere, Greater Invis. I put this together with an archer in mind, so it might be good if you prefer melee to take booming blade in place of one of the cantrips.

Thanks for that in-depth post. I guess it’s just a really tanky fighter. Btw how much does a lvl20 paladin do with his smites in play? Aren’t 170 and 181 more than what a paladin can do with his smites/spells/attack? Sorry if I am wrong

[ciarannihill]

For what it's worth EK also benefit greatly from multiclassing to get access to higher level slots -- having an EK splash into Bladesinger gives you access to some truly potent options for melee and more diverse options for out of combat encounters/utility.

Unless your campaign ends at a point where you'd miss out on a key Fighter ability (basically either of the additional Extra Attack options) dipping a little into Wizard for Bladesinger or War Wizard is potent.

[Specter]

Thanks for that in-depth post. I guess it’s just a really tanky fighter. Btw how much does a lvl20 paladin do with his smites in play? Aren’t 170 and 181 more than what a paladin can do with his smites/spells/attack? Sorry if I am wrong

Paladin can do more nova damage, while EK (and Fighters in general) are better at sustained damage. In other words, the fewer battles, the more Paladin shines, and vice-versa.

[BoxANT]

At 14th level an EK can take Haste.

Combined with PAM & GWM, this gives him a very large damage potential.



EK is also just a lot of fun, getting a familiar at 3rd level, some useful cantrips, Shield spell, Fireball, Haste, etc. Combined with the base Fighter (solid), it's great.

[hwem]

Thanks so much. I am thinking about making an optimized EK for my next home-brew (starts from level 20 like my previous campaign) since I really did not like playing sorcadin (I was doing so much damage in a single smite and critical but I don't know what it is...I REALY like my main character in pure paladin but did not enjoy playing sorcadin).

What is the optimal race(s) for EK? Is variant human as good as high elf for an eldritch knight? Thanks so far for all the help. I always feel like I'm troubling you guys with all these stupid questions.

edit: I got interested in EK because I really enjoy playing a gish and I just saw an EK win a level 20 battle royale with 20+ people. He was just going to town against all these crazy powerful wizards and sorcerers. I think he even beat some moon druid (I was told EK doesn't have enough power/NOVA to kill a lvl 20 moon druid though).

[Specter]

The guide in my signature may help.