The Protoss vs The Federation

[Executor]

The Protoss are a race of pyschically adept aliens. They stand, on average, 3metres in height and are incredibly strong and physically resilient to hardship. (the purity of form sought by the Xel'naga) The Protoss follow a strict, caste-based philosophy known as the Khala, which drives them to strive for the greater good for all Protoss. They are highly advanced and masters of warfare. They base their technology on psionics, focusing their mental energies through the Khaydarin Cystrals allows them to shoot balls of plasma at their foes, manifest beams of energy to cut through enemies or protect themselves with psionic shielding. Their advanced warp technology indicates that the Protoss have unlocked the secrets of Black Holes. Advanced AI, combined with the warp technology means that a single, robotic probe can set up an entire forward outpost for a Protoss invasion in a matter of hours.

We all know about the Federation, they are a system-spanning, socialist alliance of planets. They have energy-based weapons (the Phasers), warp technology, though it isn't as advanced as the Protoss, and a high level of advancement in general. If the Federation of Star Trek came into contact, and conflict with the Protoss Empire of Starcraft, who would be victorious? Let us try and leave gameplay mechanics out of the picture here. The Carrier probably has some direct-fire weapons mounted on it (probably a scaled-up version of the Photon Cannon that covers their ground defences), how else did they sterilize Chau and Mar Sara? A Protoss Carrier also probably carries more than eight interceptors. Also, let's say the Protoss forces are a mixture of what they had in Starcraft and some stuff they'll have in Starcraft 2.

Let us say the Federation and the Protoss Empire have come into conflict over an M-class planet (similar to Earth), rich in natural resources that are coveted by both nations. The Federation have already established a base on one of the planet's two moons, and a forward outpost on the planet itself. We shall call this planet... Mon. A squadron of Protoss Carriers and Warp Rays have already moved into high orbit, and their probes have warped in an extensive base and staging ground the planet itself. Several Galaxy-class and Akira-class starships of the Federation patrol their moonbase. Who will come out on top in this battle of intergalactic powers?

For more information on the Protoss and their units for SC and SC2, go to the Starcraft Wiki:
http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page

For more information on the Federation, go the Star Trek wiki:
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Main_Page

[Winterwind]

Without going into too much detail, I think the Protoss beat the Federation in pretty much every aspect thinkable.
They have extremely powerful and well-equipped ground soldiers. They have displayed the ability to obliterate entire worlds at will. They have vastly supreme psionic powers at their disposal.

After the end of StarCraft, the Protoss are somewhat lacking in numbers. The Federation could hope to overwhelm them with superior numbers, but the scenario you have presented is explicitly preventing that. Even if looking at a scale of the entire Federation/Empire, the Protoss superior FTL drives would likely score them the win.

The Federation does have one trump card, though - time-travel. However, this one is used exactly when and how the writers want to, and is completely neglected on other occassions, so that's not exactly a solid argument.

[averagejoe]

Federation. They have weapons that don't just raze planets, they can blow chunks off them. (If memory serves, that is.) Not just that, but all their ships are equipped with teleporters, not just one type, and they tend to have superior technology in general. The 'toss might have some advantage in ground skirmishes, but they feds are nothing if not adaptive, and can quickly come up with new solutions/technologies.

[zeratul]

The protoss have superior technology. They could literally just turn invisible, vaporize the federation's home planet, then go away.

[LordVader]

Ready? Round One! Figh- oh, crap, the Protoss already won.:smalltongue:

The Protoss have massively superior ground combat troops, ships, space combat capability, and overall technology. They also can vaporize planetary surfaces, didn't you remember what they did to Chau and Mar Sara?

[Solo]

The Protoss killed the Overmind, and presented a significant challenge for the Zerg and Terran enemies through out Starcraft and Brood War, despite having only one planet, whereas the Terrans had several and the Zerg were an innumerable Swarm.

I vote 'Toss

[BRC]

With the whole "blowing up the planet" thing, thats irrelevant since they both want control over the planet.
I would go with the Protoss personally.

[LordVader]

No, no, no. Aiur was just the capital, they have other worlds. I think. :smallconfused:

And in no way are the Federation more technologically advanced then the Protoss. Unless you've seen the Federation implanting its mortally wounded soldiers into massive death-spitting constructs lately. Or employing cloaked warriors. Or massive robotic ships that churn out hundreds of robotic weapons.

Protoss would win so fast it'd be over before you could even blink. Federation has zero ground combat capability, and their ships are crap compared to the Protoss as well- a 'Toss carrier with full shields and undamaged hull can shrug off a Yamato Cannon hit fairly well (in the background, not basing this on game) whereas Fed ships get blown to smithereens the moment their shields go down.

[Seraph]

I think you people are missing something. the Federation has technology easily capable of killing whole star systems (trilithium, anyone?), they just never use it because they want to keep the moral high ground. also, while carriers have firepower, keep in mind that fed ships are far more maneuverable and faster. furthermore, the Federation have no ground forces because they are more than capable of taking out any army from orbit without causing damage to the landscape, mainly by wide-angle stun blast.

[averagejoe]

their ships are crap compared to the Protoss as well- a 'Toss carrier with full shields and undamaged hull can shrug off a Yamato Cannon hit fairly well (in the background, not basing this on game) whereas Fed ships get blown to smithereens the moment their shields go down.

Please. Federation phasers are powerful enough and precise enough to be used to drill through a planet's crust. The protoss have trouble with freakin' golioths. Star Trek is on an entirely different scale from Starcraft. A carrier might be able to put up a bit of a fight, but the rest of their ships would be swiftly and soundly one shot-ed into oblivion. The federation were made such that they often needed the opposite of plot armor just to produce any sort of tension at all in the story. It has been firmly established that laser weapons don't produce any sort of threat at all toward federation ships, and 'toss weapons are on a comperable scale. The protoss may be able to glass planets, but that isn't a huge deal when you consider the energies involved in FTL travel. A quantum torpedo, however, could blow rather large chunks off a planet.

[Thrivol]

It all depends on if the Federation has one man: Captain Jean Luke Picard, of the U.S.S Enterprise. He would single handily destroy the Protoss. I don't know how, but he could do it.

Sisko could also probably defeat them. Kirk would seduce the Protoss (all of them). But Janeway/the other captain in that one other Star Trek show would be dead.

[Solo]

No, no, no. Aiur was just the capital, they have other worlds. I think. :smallconfused:


I'll give you Shakuras, but they are not mentioned as having colonized anything else as far as I know.

[averagejoe]

It all depends on if the Federation has one man: Captain Jean Luke Picard, of the U.S.S Enterprise. He would single handily destroy the Protoss. I don't know how, but he could do it.

Sisko could also probably defeat them. Kirk would seduce the Protoss (all of them). But Janeway/the other captain in that one other Star Trek show would be dead.

:smallbiggrin:

QFT. I have to admit, this gave me a pretty good laugh.

[zeratul]

Please. Federation phasers are powerful enough and precise enough to be used to drill through a planet's crust. The protoss have trouble with freakin' golioths. Star Trek is on an entirely different scale from Starcraft. A carrier might be able to put up a bit of a fight, but the rest of their ships would be swiftly and soundly one shot-ed into oblivion. The federation were made such that they often needed the opposite of plot armor just to produce any sort of tension at all in the story. It has been firmly established that laser weapons don't produce any sort of threat at all toward federation ships, and 'toss weapons are on a comperable scale. The protoss may be able to glass planets, but that isn't a huge deal when you consider the energies involved in FTL travel. A quantum torpedo, however, could blow rather large chunks off a planet.

You obviously haven't read the books based on starcraft. The protoss dont blow chunks of a planet, they melt everything on the planet. All of their weaponry is underplayed in the game. If you read the books and find out what they're really capable of you'll know why the toss would crush the puny federation.

[LordVader]

It all depends on if the Federation has one man: Captain Jean Luke Picard, of the U.S.S Enterprise. He would single handily destroy the Protoss. I don't know how, but he could do it.

Sisko could also probably defeat them. Kirk would seduce the Protoss (all of them). But Janeway/the other captain in that one other Star Trek show would be dead.

Protoss are androgynous, everyone knows that.:smalltongue: So that plan fails.
((I know, they're not really, but they might as well be.))


Also, averagejoe, you are making the single biggest mistake people in these types of discussions make. You are assuming that game mechanics is how it would work in RL. Obviously, this is not the case.

Also, if Fed ships are so spiffy, how come they scatter across space after a single phaser hit?

[averagejoe]

You obviously haven't read the books based on starcraft. The protoss dont blow chunks of a planet, they melt everything on the planet. All of their weaponry is underplayed in the game. If you read the books and find out what they're really capable of you'll know why the toss would crush the puny federation.

Er, I believe I mentioned that the 'toss can glass planets in my post, although I admittedly have just known that from playing the games. So, no, I haven't read the books, but you're not telling me anything I didn't know, or haven't mentioned. However, anyone in a civilation advanced enough to have FTL travel pretty much has the capability to do such a thing. Physically destroying a planet takes much more energy than simply igniting the atmosphere and burning the surface.


Also, if Fed ships are so spiffy, how come they scatter across space after a single phaser hit?

Er, I don't remember them ever doing so. And, even if they did, phasers are plenty powerful enough for any reasonable scale. One might as well ask why, if carriers are so spiffy, they fall to a single small scale tactical nuclear weapon? (Yes, yes, game mechanics different from "real life." Quite beside the point.)

[BRC]

Er, I believe I mentioned that the 'toss can glass planets in my post, although I admittedly have just known that from playing the games. So, no, I haven't read the books, but you're not telling me anything I didn't know, or haven't mentioned. However, anyone in a civilation advanced enough to have FTL travel pretty much has the capability to do such a thing. Physically destroying a planet takes much more energy than simply igniting the atmosphere and burning the surface.
But the effect is the same
Igniting atmosphere and burning surface: everything on planet dies
Blowing up planet: everything on planet dies but you just used a lot more energy.

[Thrivol]

Protoss are androgynous, everyone knows that.:smalltongue: So that plan fails.
((I know, they're not really, but they might as well be.))
If William Shatner wants to seduce Protoss, he will. And I know he wants to seduce them.

[averagejoe]

But the effect is the same
Igniting atmosphere and burning surface: everything on planet dies
Blowing up planet: everything on planet dies but you just used a lot more energy.

Quite beside the point. I was talking about how fed weapons are on a much larger scale than 'toss weapons. The feds are capable of glassing a planet if need be as well.

Look, the unshielded, underdeveloped weapons of the terrans can stand up to the protoss reasonably well to the 'toss, and I'm betting that this is even true in the novels. If not they'd be some uninteresting novels, anyways. However, the Enterprise has come up against ships on a scale similar to battlecrusers. They never posed any sort of serious threat at all.

[BRC]

If William Shatner wants to seduce Protoss, he will. And I know he wants to seduce them.
its true, William Shatner is capable of seducing anything, whether or not it would be attracted to a human male, is physically capable of being attracted to anything, or even knows he exists.

[K2]

Alright, I am ending this right now. The Protoss do not wear red shirts, the fedies do. therefore the Protoss win. Moving on.

[Executor]

First of all, because something is referred to as a "laser" does not make it as laser. A laser is a continous beam of concentrated light and heat. Star Wars is awash with lasers, and none of them fulfill that criteria, so they may be called "laser" but are probably something else entirely. In Starcraft, the Battlecruiser is described as armed with lasers, and yet they are not continous beams, they are short blasts. So we must conclude that Starcraft 'lasers' are something entirely unique, not a normal laser at all. I'd say the production of Starcraft directed energy weapons is probably related to vespene gas in some way.

Besides, the Protoss primarily have psionic-based technology. They focus their considerable mental energy through the Khaydarin Crystals, allowing them to create such powerful weapons as the psi-blades used by Zealots. On ground, the Protoss would absolutely destroy the Federation. Hell, there is no Federation Army at all, they all seem to be just crewmembers of the ships deployed on ground, with minimal training and armed with those dreadfully unergonomic 'phasers' I believe Protoss energy shielding would be more than adequate defence against 'phasers' considering that cargo crates seem to be completely invulnerable to phaserfire. Let me also note that Federation ground forces have no concept of combined arms. They have no armour, artillery or heavy equipment. Essentially, they are an army armed soley with small arms.

Compare that to the Protoss, who deploy infantry, armour, heavy artillery, air and ground support units. They've got the works, and know how to use it.

[Counterpower]

Quite beside the point. I was talking about how fed weapons are on a much larger scale than 'toss weapons. The feds are capable of glassing a planet if need be as well.

Good luck hitting anything smaller than a planet, though. In "The Search, Part II" the Defiant has some nebulous quality called "weapons lock". And proceeds to MISS with its phasers at least 4 times. (It does hit the Jem'Hadar ship. Eventually.) That's a lock on? They'd never be able to hit an Interceptor, and Scouts would probably be as much of a problem. Same with Corsairs and Arbiters. Carriers are probably the only thing they could hit! Seriously, the computers on the ships need to improve immensely. That's not the only time that they've missed a target, even though they have a weapons lock.


Look, the unshielded, underdeveloped weapons of the terrans can stand up to the protoss reasonably well to the 'toss, and I'm betting that this is even true in the novels. If not they'd be some uninteresting novels, anyways. However, the Enterprise has come up against ships on a scale similar to battlecrusers. They never posed any sort of serious threat at all.

The only ship that's shown any kind of resilience in the TV show is the Defiant, which managed to survive a few minutes, unshielded, against a Klingon battlecruiser. It's also the only ship I've ever heard of with the ablative armor that allowed it to do that, and it was STILL torn to pieces, as in critical functions breaking down. (Like the cloaking device.) None of the other ships in the show have any sort of resistance to damage. The shields never seem to go down in the show!

"Captain, our shields have fallen to 40%!" BOOM *entire ship shakes* *display fries poor bridge redshirt* "We've lost our engines!"

That's the difference. The Terrans know what armor is, the Federation does not. The Fed ships are like Archons: as soon as that shield falls, you die. Especially with Interceptors capable of exploiting any weakness in a shield. Arbiters that you have to take out first, and that can freeze half of your ships (yay for divide and conquer) AND that can summon reinforcements in an instant. Scouts...... well, their advantage is their size. Corsairs have splash damage. The Federation would be wiped out!

[....]

Protoss.

Mr. Data: Captain, there appear to be several large, humanoid figures on board this ship. I will attempt to make contact with them.
Zealot: MY LIFE FOR AIUR!!
*slash slash*
Picard: Mr. Data! Report!
Worf: Captain, they are hailing us.
Picard: On screen.
Tassadar: We warned you Terrans to stay away from this planet. As much as it pains me to do this, you will be destroyed.
Worf: Sir, a much larger ship is decloaking.
Picard: Where, Mr. Worf?
Worf:... Directly above us, sir.
*giant beam cracks Enterprise like an old bone. Protoss move on.*

[averagejoe]

Protoss.

Mr. Data: Captain, there appear to be several large, humanoid figures on board this ship. I will attempt to make contact with them.
Zealot: MY LIFE FOR AIUR!!
*slash slash*
Picard: Mr. Data! Report!
Worf: Captain, they are hailing us.
Picard: On screen.
Tassadar: We warned you Terrans to stay away from this planet. As much as it pains me to do this, you will be destroyed.
Worf: Sir, a much larger ship is decloaking.
Picard: Where, Mr. Worf?
Worf:... Directly above us, sir.
*giant beam cracks Enterprise like an old bone. Protoss move on.*

How do the zealots get on the ship? The protoss need something physically there in order to enable teleportation. And, bigger? It would suprise me if it was. I don't remember how many people the enterprise carried, but it was a good amount over one thousand, and things weren't even very crowded. Besides, Worf would never do something so unfortunate as use a word like, "above" to refer to something in space.

[Thrivol]

Protoss.

Mr. Data: Captain, there appear to be several large, humanoid figures on board this ship. I will attempt to make contact with them.
Zealot: MY LIFE FOR AIUR!!
*slash slash*
Picard: Mr. Data! Report!
Worf: Captain, they are hailing us.
Picard: On screen.
Tassadar: We warned you Terrans to stay away from this planet. As much as it pains me to do this, you will be destroyed.
Worf: Sir, a much larger ship is decloaking.
Picard: Where, Mr. Worf?
Worf:... Directly above us, sir.
*giant beam cracks Enterprise like an old bone. Protoss move on.*
Tee hee. I can't help but laugh.

Mr. Data: Captain, there appear to be several large, humanoid figures on board this ship. I will attempt to make contact with them.
Zealot: MY LIFE FOR AIUR!!
*slash slash*
Picard: Mr. Data, report!
Mr. Data: They were hostile sir. I was forced to subdue them.
Worf: Sir, a much larger ship is decloaking.
Picard: Where, Mr. Worf?
Worf:... Directly above us, sir.
Picard: Raise character shields!
*The ship shakes, no names on the bridge die*
Picard: Fire photon torpedoes, wide spread Mr. Worf.
Worf: Sir, the enemies shields are down.
Picard: Hail them. This is Captain Jean Luke Picard, of the U.S.S. Enterprise.
Zeratul (assuming he is leader): Oh ****! It's like fighting seven Koreans at once!
Picard: Open fire, Mr. Worf.
*Protoss are destroyed*


Yes, Picard wins.

[BRC]

Tee hee. I can't help but laugh.


Zeratul (assuming he is leader): Oh ****! It's like fighting seven Koreans at once!


You sir win

[Winterwind]

While both are highly humorous, I believe ....'s variant of the events is much closer to what would happen.
I mean, I can hardly see the entire crew of the Enterprise together subdueing a single Zealot, so let's not talk about what the Zealot would do with Data alone. And we have not even brought forth the telepathic powers of the Protoss, neither the High Templar, nor the Dark Archon.

[K2]

The Korean servers scare me.....:smalleek: :smallfrown: :smalleek:

[bugsysservant]

The Korean servers scare me.....:smalleek: :smallfrown: :smalleek:

They scare me too. *gives hug*

[Counterpower]

How do the zealots get on the ship? The protoss need something physically there in order to enable teleportation. And, bigger? It would suprise me if it was. I don't remember how many people the enterprise carried, but it was a good amount over one thousand, and things weren't even very crowded. Besides, Worf would never do something so unfortunate as use a word like, "above" to refer to something in space.

They wouldn't be able to stop a Shuttle from going wherever it pleased on the Enterprise, considering the horrible weapon accuracy I mentioned. Actually, the size is a disadvantage........ after all, the Odyssey from "The Jem'Hadar" was unable to destroy the three Jem'Hadar ships. Scouts, Corsairs, and Interceptors are assuredly smaller than those. Those three types of Protoss ships would probably have free reign around any Galaxy-class ship. Shuttles could go either way on size, but even so, they'd be pretty difficult to hit, and if even one got through the Fed ship would be doomed, seeing as the Federation is pathetic when it comes down to man-to-man combat. Arbiters are still significantly smaller than the Galaxy-class, and have a host of special abilities that make them a huge problem.

"Captain, something's hit the ship!"
"Well, what is it?"
"I... I don't know, sir! There's nothing there!"
*intruder alarm sounds*
"We've been boarded!"

And Carriers...... I have no idea where they are in comparison to a Galaxy-class ship. It doesn't really matter since even if they had guns, I wouldn't make them frontline ships anyway.

It'd probably take two shots from a Fed ship to take out a Protoss ship anyway. One for the shields, one for the hull. That's more time than you want to be using, especially if you miss a few times in between those shots. Heck, if the Feds can't get off two shots in reasonably quick succession, the shields regenerate and it's back to square one. All the while, the Protoss energy weapons are doing severe damage to the shields of the Fed ship, probably killing off the bridge crew in the process. If all else fails, the Scouts and Interceptors can be ordered to ram. They may not be Scourges, but you don't need Scourges. The Odyssey mentioned earlier was doomed by one ram attack from a Jem'Hadar ship, and Carriers can rebuild Interceptors at will.

Heck, the Protoss could get Scourges! Just send a Dark Archon to a known Zerg base (with a heavy escort) and mind-control one of the Drones. Do the same with a Terran SCV for variety. Can the Federation survive all three of them at once? The Zerg start spreading across the planet, all mind-controlled by the Protoss. We've already seen in SC 1 how effective they are at that. Miss a single Drone, and the cancer regenerates as good as new. Terrans provide heavy unit support for the Zerg, should the Federation ever provide any heavy resistance to the Zerg spread. (They wouldn't.) The only problem would be breaking onto the planet's surface (and the moon's). That, however, isn't so difficult. Spam Valkyrie Frigates and Corsairs. Have the Corsairs disable ground-based defenses with Disruption Webs, and then the two groups of AA units start tearing up the Fed starships. Even if the Federation was able to destroy all of the Protoss and Terran ships, all that the Protoss would need to get through is a single Overlord, Shuttle, or Dropship amidst the chaos in orbit. Then, well....... then it's crew members with phasers against Siege Tanks, Hydralisks, and Archons. It'd be a massacre, and the Protoss would end in control of the planet, thus satisfying the objective of the entire exercise.

[Executor]

All jokes, funny though they are, aside:

First of all, Protoss are all 3 metres (or 9 feet for you non-metrics) tall and just a strong as any cyborg. Zealots also wear powered armour which makes them even strong. A Psi-blade would take Mr. Data's head off, and plasma shielding would protect them from any sort of physical or energy blow. Give me seven good Zealots and i'd clear out the USS Enterprise in under six hours. And I doubt that the Enterprise could destroy a Carrier in one hit. If I remember correctly the Enterprise's phasers generated 3.6 gigawatts of energy. A sustained bombardment from a handful of Carriers and misc. Protoss ships melted the surface of the Saras, destroying all life, down to bacteria. That means that the phase cannons of a Protoss Carrier (canonically, they must have some form of direct-fire weapon, how else could they bombard planets? Interceptors aren't up for the task) generate powe at least in the thousand megaton range, probably more. I'd also say a Carrier is much, much larger than the Enterprise. Check out this artwork produced by Blizzard:

http://www.googirama.com/albums/Starcraft/protoss_carrier.jpg
Looking at the ratio of size comparing the mountains to the Carrier, and to the sizable settlement beneath, that means that the ship must be at least, give or take, a kilometre long. That's a big ship. Factoring in the fact that Protoss command is much more adept and competent that Starfleet, and the fact that the Federation has no concept of combined arms, I would say the Protoss win.

[Psychotic]

Besides, phasers drain a hell of a lot more energy when set to a lethal setting and even then they can barely cut through force fields.

So basically, it's like this:
Fed Red Shirt :"Open fire!
*pew*
Zealot: *looks puzzled* "That almost would've hurt if I didn't have this neato personal shield technology. Hm." *stab*

Edit: In reply to the post above, I'm sure carriers do have some means of a direct energy weapon. They wouldn't be utilized in game for reasons that A) You shouldn't give one race a weapon capable of wiping planets clean (Nukes don't count). and B) It'd be awful difficult to aim said direct energy weapon at a moving target. The chances of missing and hitting obliterating a friendly is kinda large.

[Counterpower]

I didn't even think about using the picture. Yeah. Very big ships there.

The point of the battle is to take control of a planet. With that mission, the Protoss cannot lose. The Federation is simply incapable of defeating the Protoss on the ground. Crew members with phasers pale by comparison to a Reaver, or even a Dragoon! Even supposing that the Federation starships are vastly superior to the Protoss ones (which is not proven), all the Protoss need to do is break orbit and hit the ground on the planet. After that's accomplished, they're not going to be removed by anything short of a massive planetary bombardment. Which the Feds could do, but probably not without destroying a good deal of the resources that represent the reason why this planet's so important.

Psychotic: Very true. Of course, then Worf comes along and one-shots the poor fool, because he's a plot-critical character and thus is vastly more powerful. :smallbiggrin: Now that I've satisfied my joking daily requirement, I'll be more serious and say that Worf might give the Zealot a good fight. Might even kill the Zealot. Then he's eviscerated by a Dark Templar, or a little mine crawls up to him and blows him to shreds, etc. The Zealot is the least of the Protoss ground units, and he's more than the Federation can handle.

[Theodoriph]

Protoss weapons are weaker.
Protoss armor is likely weaker.
Protoss shields are most likely weaker.
Federation has better sensors.
Federation has better weapons range.
Federation has time travel.
Federation has faster ships.
The Federation can use the good ol' patented fly around at lightspeed and take potshots. The Protoss just sit there and take it.
Federation has Picard.


Why is this even a question. In starcraft, the name of the game is "ground" combat. For one, any units the protoss deployed on a planet from space would be destroyed with a widened phasor blast from the starship above. And two, even many of their air units specials are oriented towards helping out their ground units. Three...air units do not equal space units. So their fighting capability is even further reduced. Four...because SC is based on ground combat, weapon ranges are reduced...it'd be a silly game if your units fired shots from hundreds of thousands of kilometres away. Would take the excitement out of the game :smallbiggrin:

So I'd have to say that the Federation wins hands down!

It's not a fair comparison though. It's like putting a battalion of soldiers with m-16s up against a group of stealth bombers.



P.S. The Federation members do have ground armies. You don't see them much, because well...they don't go around attacking other planets...which really makes you wonder why they have ground armies if noone's launching ground assaults. =D But they do have them...even if everyone does their conquering from space.

@OP

Phasors are particle weapons.

@Counter

"The point of the battle is to take control of a planet. With that mission, the Protoss cannot lose. The Federation is simply incapable of defeating the Protoss on the ground."

It's called a starship firing phasors on widebeam. The Protoss just sit there and take it, since they can't do much else. :smallsmile: They wouldn't even have to destroy vast swathes of the planets...starships have adjustable phasor power settings :smallbiggrin:

[Counterpower]

Here, from the Next-Gen Technical Manual: the Enterprise is 61,110 cm long. Since 100 cm = 1 m, that means that the Enterprise is 611 meters long, or just a little over a half kilometer.

Carriers are probably bigger, especially if that picture's any indication.

Theodoriph: WTF?

The Federation armor is absolutely pathetic! The shields aren't even down, and the ship's bucking like all get out, the bridge displays are frying crewmembers....... no. Protoss wins on armor.

Weapons; any basis for that? Shields, same.

Time travel only appears when the writers need it, and is ignored everywhere else, even in situations where it would be very helpful.

Fed ships can't hit a target when at impulse, so what makes you think their accuaracy would be acceptable at warp?

Oh, and the Protoss do have shields. You can't just spam widened blasts from orbit. One, the Protoss shields would protect against low-power stun blasts. Anything heavier, and you're liable to destroy the planet in the process. That, and wide beams suffer "marked power loss per unit area covered." Which is a fancy way of saying that they're much less effective on wide blast.

Second, air units ARE space units. We saw that repeatedly in cinema scenes, like Tassadar's return to Aiur (Carriers, Arbiters), the Zerg invasion of the same planet (Overlords, Guardians, Mutalisks), the downing of the Norad II (Battlecruisers, Scourges), the Terran end campaign scene (Wraiths, huge Terran fleet), etc. Yeah, actually, air units do equal space units in Starcraft.

Finally, there is no evidence, anywhere that I know of, of Federation ground troops consisting of any more than guys with phasers. If I'm wrong about that, please do correct me. Actually, providing some actual backup would be helpful for many of your statements, instead of just making unproven assertions.

[Twin2]

Are we allowed to use starcraft II here, cause toss have moved on up to some funky time manipulation themselves. :smallbiggrin:

Personally I'd "just" give it to the toss based on the fact that they've got better cloaking tech for not just ships, but guys as well (dark templars are a huge pain in the ass). Though from the shows I've seen it seems like the fed sensor's aren't too shabby in detecting those damn romulans and their cloaking shennanigans so it'd be close.

[Theodoriph]

"Theodoriph: WTF?

The Federation armor is absolutely pathetic! The shields aren't even down, and the ship's bucking like all get out, the bridge displays are frying crewmembers....... no. Protoss wins on armor."

Please. Protoss armor may be good against weak weapons. But that doesn't mean too much.

"Weapons; any basis for that? Shields, same."

Most federation starships phasors can destroy a planet. The Defiant's phasors can cut a planet in two (heart of a warrior).

Superior shielding is based on them having superior weapons and superior power supplies compared to most of the Protoss units.


"Time travel only appears when the writers need it, and is ignored everywhere else, even in situations where it would be very helpful."

I'm sorry...your argument is what? If it appears, it's a viable strategy. I'm sorry if that means your dear Protoss lose. But really...maybe they shouldn't suck so much.


"Fed ships can't hit a target when at impulse, so what makes you think their accuaracy would be acceptable at warp?"

Actually, if you pour over all the footage, Fed ships have excellent accuracy. You're basing your claims off of a few clips you've seen. Bravo! That's some might fine reasoning.

The simple fact is, the Protoss would just be sitting ducks. From the game, their sensors seem to be pretty incapable of detecting units at 300km away and that is the operative range of phasors. ST sensors work on the magnitude of light years. The Protoss wouldn't even know what hit them.


"Oh, and the Protoss do have shields. You can't just spam widened blasts from orbit. One, the Protoss shields would protect against low-power stun blasts. Anything heavier, and you're liable to destroy the planet in the process. That, and wide beams suffer "marked power loss per unit area covered." Which is a fancy way of saying that they're much less effective on wide blast."

Erm, I wasn't talking about stun blasts. Like I said, starship phasors have multiple settings. You don't need to set them low enough to stun. And no, with a widened beam on a lower setting, you're not as likely to destroy the planet...and even if you do scorch the surface, most deposits are located underground.


"Second, air units ARE space units. We saw that repeatedly in cinema scenes, like Tassadar's return to Aiur (Carriers, Arbiters), the Zerg invasion of the same planet (Overlords, Guardians, Mutalisks), the downing of the Norad II (Battlecruisers, Scourges), etc. Yeah, actually, air units do equal space units in Starcraft."


I'm sorry. By a space unit, I mean something designed to operate in space. Protoss ships don't qualify as that to me because...well...they're too slow. =P Starcraft is a "ground" combat game. The units are designed with that in mind. So their "air" units are designed as air units. If they could sit around in orbit and level the ground units and buildings, it wouldn't be much fun. So Starcraft seems to impose limitations on the range, speed etc. of their "air" units which really hinders their worthiness as space fighters. (Air units fighting at light speed while ground units go running around trying to avoid them would be funny though =D)

"Finally, there is no evidence, anywhere that I know of, of Federation ground troops consisting of any more than guys with phasers. If I'm wrong about that, please do correct me."

In a few of the books, they mention members militaries off hand. But it's never a prevalent theme, since Star Trek is about exploration and space combat, not ground combat.

[Psychotic]

Protoss weapons are weaker.
Protoss armor is likely weaker.
Protoss shields are most likely weaker.
Federation has better sensors.
Federation has better weapons range.
Federation has time travel.
Federation has faster ships.
The Federation can use the good ol' patented fly around at lightspeed and take potshots. The Protoss just sit there and take it.
Federation has Picard.


Why is this even a question. In starcraft, the name of the game is "ground" combat. For one, any units the protoss deployed on a planet from space would be destroyed with a widened phasor blast from the starship above. And two, even many of their air units specials are oriented towards helping out their ground units. Three...air units do not equal space units. So their fighting capability is even further reduced. Four...because SC is based on ground combat, weapon ranges are reduced...it'd be a silly game if your units fired shots from hundreds of thousands of kilometres away. Would take the excitement out of the game :smallbiggrin:

So I'd have to say that the Federation wins hands down!

It's not a fair comparison though. It's like putting a battalion of soldiers with m-16s up against a group of stealth bombers.



P.S. The Federation members do have ground armies. You don't see them much, because well...they don't go around attacking other planets...which really makes you wonder why they have ground armies if noone's launching ground assaults. =D But they do have them...even if everyone does their conquering from space.

@OP

Phasors are particle weapons.

@Counter

"The point of the battle is to take control of a planet. With that mission, the Protoss cannot lose. The Federation is simply incapable of defeating the Protoss on the ground."

It's called a starship firing phasors on widebeam. The Protoss just sit there and take it, since they can't do much else. :smallsmile: They wouldn't even have to destroy vast swathes of the planets...starships have adjustable phasor power settings :smallbiggrin:

Protoss weapons have not been wielded in game to their fullest extent, due to game balance. Read a book or two.

Protoss armor (ship based) is probably not weaker at all. I seem to recall rather decent chunks of hull flying away whenever blasted by a starship phaser. So thus, they're probably in the same field as Protoss armor.

The thing is that Protoss Shields actually prevent damage, rather than Federation Shields which kind of just minimize it.

Better sensors? Since when? If I remember correctly, they couldn't do crap once a ship threw on its Cloaking Device. Now try an entire fleet in cloak.

Better weapons range? Speculation. We don't know the range of Protoss weapons compared to Federation weapons.

Deus ex Machinas don't work too well in real world situations, do they?

Faster ships? Once again, speculation. We don't know how fast any of their ships travel beyond their FTL travel.

Ever seen a movie where during the car chase scene, people are shooting at each other with submachine guns and tend to miss a lot? Try doing that with a weapon that can only shoot once every 6 seconds or so, while going 10,317,178.9 times faster.

"Air Unit" simply infers the ability to move and attack above ground units. If you had any notion of the Starcraft Universe, you would know that every "Air Unit" is space-worthy. As a matter of fact, most Protoss air units are best in air-to-air combat. Corsairs and Scouts can absolutely terrorize the battlefield while being placed in a frame as small as a fighter jet.

The game is based on ground combat that so there would be more of a sense of being able to wield an army. I reiterate the point that the game does not represent the protoss to the power level that they possess. Should anyone wish to learn more, read some of the Starcraft Novels. Queen of Blades and Shadow of the Xel'naga are good reads.

[Mr._Blinky]

I'll give you Shakuras, but they are not mentioned as having colonized anything else as far as I know.

The Protoss at one point controlled something like half the galaxy. The Zerg just ripped them pretty much to pieces. The 'toss have always had an enormous Empire, it was just that they were slowly losing the war with the Zerg long before the Terran's joined in.

Anyways, I'd say Protoss if you're basing their power off the books instead of the game. They've got ridiculously powerful ships.

Also, Data would never be able to take a Zealot in close combat. They're probably about as strong, and Data might be a bit faster (though Zealots are still unbelievably agile), but Data has fists and an android body. Zealots are a full three feet taller, have personal shields, and what amounts to dual-wielded lightsabers. Considering that he has problems with Borg, Data would be cut to pieces.

In space, it's about an even fight I'd say, but on the ground the Fed would be slaughtered in minutes. And considering the technology that the Protoss have, especially cloaking and warping, all they really have to do is pull an Ender.

Tassadar: The enemies planet is down!
*********
Worf: We're receiving a hail Sir!
Picard: Put it on screen.
Zeratul: *covered in blood, screams echoing in background* I'm in ur base, killin' ur manz!

Also, Dark Archons could just Mind Control the main characters, and everyone else would just die.

[Winterwind]

Uh, Theodoriph? You do realise the OP wrote specifically we were not to use the game mechanics (which would be silly - while I'm not certain, I think a Space Marine with Stim Pack can outrun a Wraith, do you really assume in the StarCraft universe Space Superiority Fighters are slower than infantry soldiers?), but the Protoss as they are in the StarCraft universe outside the game?

This renders pretty much all of your points moot - the fact the space units are scaled down so they can be in the same game as ground units doesn't change the fact they are, in the "real" StarCraft world, space units, and well capable of fighting, scanning and so on on a much bigger range.
Plus, Psychotic is absolutely right, the Protoss themselves are scaled down massively in the game.

And Counterpower's point about time travel is correct, too - the way time travel is written in the Star Trek universe is a horrible mess (well, it's not the only thing that is). Sometimes, the Federation seems to possess it. On other occassions, it doesn't. Star Trek technology just is not presented consistently. So, maybe the OP could decide which writer we are supposed to presume for this conflict - one who includes time travel into his ST universe, or one who excludes it?

[Theodoriph]

"Protoss weapons have not been wielded in game to their fullest extent, due to game balance. Read a book or two."

Neither have the Federation's. Their weapons, shielding etc. are often downplayed in the shows (as compared to the books).

Protoss armor (ship based) is probably not weaker at all. I seem to recall rather decent chunks of hull flying away whenever blasted by a starship phaser. So thus, they're probably in the same field as Protoss armor.

Phasors are more powerful though. So it's not a good comparison. Having other races that are less technologically advanced than the Federatrion (like the Terrans) able to defeat them in the game doesn't really make their weapons, shields and armor able to match up.


"The thing is that Protoss Shields actually prevent damage, rather than Federation Shields which kind of just minimize it."

Actually Federation shields prevent it. They do quite a good job too.


"Better sensors? Since when? If I remember correctly, they couldn't do crap once a ship threw on its Cloaking Device. Now try an entire fleet in cloak."

Oh no...not a cloaking device. Wow. How scary! The federation just sits back at 300km and blasts the Protoss while they sit there not knowing what to do. It's a pity, Arbiters don't cloak too =( It'd be a debilitating weakness against an enemy you can't find but can shoot you to bits. The federation can even have its ships cloak too...just for the hell of it.

"Better weapons range? Speculation. We don't know the range of Protoss weapons compared to Federation weapons."

Please...they don't even have sensors on their vehicles powerful enough to overcome scan a planet (ruddy fog of war). And I'm pretty sure their "air" units don't just sit back in their own base and pummel all corners of the map. Again, it would make for a crappy game...which is why SC units have the range of ground units and air units....not space units.


"Faster ships? Once again, speculation. We don't know how fast any of their ships travel beyond their FTL travel."

ST doesn't make a distinction. They can do almost anything at FTL that they can do at impulse. SC units speed when engaging in combat is not FTL. It is in fact...very....very....very....very slow compared to FTL. They have speeds that are suitable for "air" units, not for space units.

"Ever seen a movie where during the car chase scene, people are shooting at each other with submachine guns and tend to miss a lot? Try doing that with a weapon that can only shoot once every 6 seconds or so, while going 10,317,178.9 times faster."

Phasors are pretty accurate at warp speed, as they are at all speeds.

""Air Unit" simply infers the ability to move and attack above ground units. If you had any notion of the Starcraft Universe, you would know that every "Air Unit" is space-worthy. As a matter of fact, most Protoss air units are best in air-to-air combat. Corsairs and Scouts can absolutely terrorize the battlefield while being placed in a frame as small as a fighter jet."

They can operate in space if that's what you mean. That doesn't make them a "space" unit in my eyes. Technically you could put a unit in an astronaut suit and it would be able to operate in space. But it'd be a crappy "space" unit. And those air units are designed as just that...air units. Speed, range etc. They don't make very good "space" units compared to the Federation's starships.

"The game is based on ground combat that so there would be more of a sense of being able to wield an army. I reiterate the point that the game does not represent the protoss to the power level that they possess. Should anyone wish to learn more, read some of the Starcraft Novels. Queen of Blades and Shadow of the Xel'naga are good reads."

I know the game is based on ground combat. But what comes with that is that the units possess characteristics of ground and air combat units, while starships in the Star Trek universe possess characteristics of space ships.

That's why it's not a fair comparison. ST wins because their ships were designed to effectively fight in space and SC units were designed with ground and air in mind.

[Counterpower]

Please. Protoss armor may be good against weak weapons. But that doesn't mean too much.

I said very little about Protoss armor. I do know that, with the sole exception of the Defiant, I've been singularly unimpressed with Fed armor. And even the Defiant took heavy damage when its shields were down, during Way of the Warrior.


Most federation starships phasors can destroy a planet. The Defiant's phasors can cut a planet in two (heart of a warrior).

I....... can't find that episode in the DS9 Companion. Is that a DS9 episode? Could you be more specific about that? And, you do realize that Protoss weapons really aren't that far behind (if they give any ground at all....), on the planet-devastation scale. That would seem to indicate that weapons power is close to equal.


Superior shielding is based on them having superior weapons and superior power supplies compared to most of the Protoss units.

Predicated, of course, on the superior weapons.


I'm sorry...your argument is what? If it appears, it's a viable strategy. I'm sorry if that means your dear Protoss lose. But really...maybe they shouldn't suck so much.

The Federation has rules against time travel, and contaminating the time line. No?


Actually, if you pour over all the footage, Fed ships have excellent accuracy. You're basing your claims off of a few clips you've seen. Bravo!

Yes, that is correct. My sincerest apologies, I haven't seen that many episodes. Seriously, though, DS9 is a stable platform, and it still only hits one out of every five or six photon torpedoes in Way of the Warrior. The Defiant has missed repeatedly with its pulse phasers. I'll recheck The Jem'Hadar and get back to you on the Odyssey. What I've seen really isn't encouraging.


Erm, I wasn't talking about stun blasts. Like I said, starship phasors have multiple settings. You don't need to set them low enough to stun. And no, with a widened beam on a lower setting, you're not as likely to destroy the planet...and even if you do scorch the surface, most deposits are located underground.

It'd almost certainly be an exponential power loss per unit area. You wouldn't be able to kill any large areas, only small circles. (Unless you drained the entire power supply firing, but that has its own problems.) And while you're doing that, the enemy space fleet has other business. Seriously, you can't ignore the space fleet. What are all those Carriers doing while you fry the ground base?


I'm sorry. By a space unit, I mean something designed to operate in space. Protoss ships don't qualify as that to me because...well...they're too slow. =P Starcraft is a "ground" combat game. The units are designed with that in mind. So their "air" units are designed as air units. If they could sit around in orbit and level the ground units and buildings, it wouldn't be much fun. So Starcraft seems to impose limitations on the range, speed etc. of their "air" units which really hinders their worthiness as space fighters.

How do you know how fast those are going anyway? How do you know those limitations aren't just due to atmosphere or gravity, which space-capable ships generally do have problems with? Besides, they DO have warp capabilities. They really aren't all that slow.


In a few of the books, they mention members militaries off hand. But it's never a prevalent theme, since Star Trek is about exploration and space combat, not ground combat.

And even when they do make ground combat episodes, like The Battle for AR-558 or the one where Jake ends up helping Bashir in a combat zone (forget the title), Starfleet has no heavy weaponry (at least, not on the order of a Siege Tank) to speak of. Yes, the focus is on space in Star Trek, but if you're going to claim that game issues mean that the Protoss space units are less effective, even if they probably wouldn't be in "reality", then isn't it reasonable to assume that Starfleet's focus on space has severely handicapped its ground force?

[Cruxador]

On the subject of ships in starcraft being too slow for space, you are partially correct, Theodoriph. They do move quite slow while in atmosphere. the reason for this is as follows:
They are in atmosphere!

That's right, that same atmosphere which blows you up if you go too fast.

While a similar argument could be applied to weapon range, I think most Protoss direct fire tends to be about a quarter of it's Federation counterpart.

In response to your "Starcraft is a ground game, so the protoss' balancing makes them suck" line of thought, we are disregarding game mechanics as much as possible (says so in the opening post). So try and base stuff off the cut scenes and books instead.

On the subject of Protoss armor, the main things to consider are that damage does not roll over, and the armor regenerates. that means it takes two quick shots to hurt a Protoss ship, and most Federation guns barely have a fast enough rate of fire for that, even if they were to take out the entire shield in one hit (I'd say it takes on average three or four from a same tier ship).

That's my two cents worth. because I'm nice I'll let you have it gratis, but if I ever need a few pennies remember that you owe me two cents.

EDIT: quadruple simu'd, and yet my points are still fairly valid!

[Counterpower]

Just a few points, but I have to go to bed. I'll resume in the morning.


Actually Federation shields prevent it. They do quite a good job too.

What show have you been watching? The entire ship shakes, the bridge displays fry the poor bridge crew...... that certainly doesn't look like preventing damage!


ST doesn't make a distinction. They can do almost anything at FTL that they can do at impulse. SC units speed when engaging in combat is not FTL. It is in fact...very....very....very....very slow compared to FTL. They have speeds that are suitable for "air" units, not for space units.

Does that include "enter an atmosphere"? Cause I really doubt that. Actually, Fed ships can't really do atmosphere all that well at impulse either....


Phasors are pretty accurate at warp speed, as they are at all speeds.

Phasers can't fire at warp speed. They travel at c, meaning the ships would immediately overtake and be hit by its own phaser blast. Only photon torpedoes can be fired at warp.

[Theodoriph]

Uh, Theodoriph? You do realise the OP wrote specifically we were not to use the game mechanics


I'm not using game mechanics. Speed is not really a gameplay mechanic. And of course, if it's contradicted elsewhere. If the Protoss are shown to be firing at ships from ranges of 300 000km. If their sensors are shown to be able to operate in terms of light years, then just go post counter examples. It's really not that hard is it. :o


The Federation is vastly underwritten in the shows. The Protoss aren't the only ones who suffer from that. :smalltongue: Time travel isn't used much because the Federation is being underwritten. I figured we were assuming that both races in this debate would not suffer from plot stupidity (i.e. underwriting) and would have access to their full complement of technologies (i.e. Federation has time travel, cloaking devices, transwarp etc.). I mean if only the Protoss can be written fairly and the Federation is compared to them in their underwritten form, it's a biased comparison.

[PaladinBoy]

Most federation starships phasors can destroy a planet. The Defiant's phasors can cut a planet in two (heart of a warrior).

Superior shielding is based on them having superior weapons and superior power supplies compared to most of the Protoss units.

Protoss weapons don't lose out in that regard. A single Protoss Motherhship in the upcoming SCII is capable of laying waste to an entire planet. That would seem to indicate that the Protoss do indeed have weapons equal to the Federation's....... and if that's true, than a large part of your argument falls apart.


The simple fact is, the Protoss would just be sitting ducks. From the game, their sensors seem to be pretty incapable of detecting units at 300km away and that is the operative range of phasors. ST sensors work on the magnitude of light years. The Protoss wouldn't even know what hit them.

You get that number from where again? The game's problems with distances and scale are rather widespread. This includes things such as the relative sizes of the Interceptors and Carriers, and compared to Protoss buildings.......

Edit: Theodoriph, you seem to be assuming that because SC is a ground combat game that the Protoss would design everything to fight in either ground or air. I really don't think that the Protoss would neglect space superiority if they intended to control a space empire. Which, according to SC's manual, they did.

[Solo]

You know, if the 'toss Psi Stormed a Federation ship, chances are, it'd take serious damage.

Lets not forget that the Protoss can kill people with their minds!

[Theodoriph]

"Just a few points, but I have to go to bed. I'll resume in the morning.



What show have you been watching? The entire ship shakes, the bridge displays fry the poor bridge crew...... that certainly doesn't look like preventing damage!"

That is an example of under writing. The shields as they are designed to operate prevent damage. (It's also an example of stupidity...a bloody monitor can not fry someone...geez who uses voltage like that on a monitor :smallbiggrin:)


"Does that include "enter an atmosphere"? Cause I really doubt that. Actually, Fed ships can't really do atmosphere all that well at impulse either...."

Their smaller ships can, though not the larger ones.

"Phasers can't fire at warp speed. They travel at c, meaning the ships would immediately overtake and be hit by its own phaser blast. Only photon torpedoes can be fired at warp."

Phasors can and have fired at warp speed. I'd like you to try an experiments. Go driving down the highway at 100km/h with a tennis ball in your hand and toss it out the window. You'll notice that the ball actually moves forward first (before it loses velocity). This is because the car, you and the ball have a speed of 100km/h. When you throw it you are adding force to that 100km/h, making it go faster than 100km/h. It's the same principal with phasors (with no air resistance). Regardless of the physical explanation, it does happen in episodes and books.

[Solo]

Phasors can and have fired at warp speed. I'd like you to try an experiments. Go driving down the highway at 100km/h with a tennis ball in your hand and toss it out the window. You'll notice that the ball actually moves forward first (before it loses velocity). This is because the car, you and the ball have a speed of 100km/h. When you throw it you are adding force to that 100km/h, making it go faster than 100km/h. It's the same principal with phasors (with no air resistance). Regardless of the physical explanation, it does happen in episodes and books.

Yes, but did you read the part of the Theory of Special Relativity where it states that you cannot go faster than light?

Even if the ship was traveling faster than light due to tv show physics, the "laser" blast would travel at light speed....

[Theodoriph]

Protoss weapons don't lose out in that regard. A single Protoss Motherhship in the upcoming SCII is capable of laying waste to an entire planet. That would seem to indicate that the Protoss do indeed have weapons equal to the Federation's....... and if that's true, than a large part of your argument falls apart.


Unfortunately it doesn't. Because these shall we call them "super weapons" are on each and every Federation starship. So even if the Mothership can do that...the Protoss are still massively outgunned.


"You get that number from where again? The game's problems with distances and scale are rather widespread. This includes things such as the relative sizes of the Interceptors and Carriers, and compared to Protoss buildings......."

I meant 300k km not 300km. Sorry. It was a typo on my part. :smallsmile:

[BRC]

Phasors can and have fired at warp speed. I'd like you to try an experiments. Go driving down the highway at 100km/h with a tennis ball in your hand and toss it out the window. You'll notice that the ball actually moves forward first (before it loses velocity). This is because the car, you and the ball have a speed of 100km/h. When you throw it you are adding force to that 100km/h, making it go faster than 100km/h. It's the same principal with phasors (with no air resistance). Regardless of the physical explanation, it does happen in episodes and books.

Problem, Phasers are energy weapons not projectile weapons, in the car+ball example the ball was moving with the car. a phaser would convert energy into the harmful phasor energy, however, the energy has no mass and therefore would not be affected by the inertia of the moving ship.

[Solo]

What's the catgirl bodycount so far?

[Theodoriph]

"Yes, but did you read the part of the Theory of Special Relativity where it states that you cannot go faster than light?"

I did, but technobabble convinced me otherwise. :smallbiggrin:


Sci-fi would be pretty boring if nothing could go faster than lightspeed though. =D



And the other guy:

Phasors are not energy weapons. They are particle weapons. A phasor fires a beam of particles (protons if I remember right [not photons....protons]). They have mass and apparently still move at lightspeed!!!!! Yay for technobabble!

[Logic]

Assuming both sides get every advantage, I still think the United Federation of Planets wins.

One: The FEDs have CRAZY diplomats, so after the conflict (if it ever arises) the FEDs get more of the treaty in their favor.

Besides, when is it ever mentioned how far protoss ships can see with sensors, and how fast they can go? Since we are not basing this off of game mechanics, I assume there is something to base most people's reactions other than just fan-boy sentamentality.

I will cite a few sources for the Federation.
The Galaxy class starship has a sensor range of 3 light years where it can detect ships. (TNG: Face of Evil, Season 6)
With a small fleet, the FEDs can detect cloaked vessels (Season 4 finale, Season 5 premeire, episode title escapes me ATM)

[Winterwind]

I'm not using game mechanics. Speed is not really a gameplay mechanic.It is, in the sense that the speeds of all units are reduced to a similar scale. Wraiths are space fighters. Vultures are hover-vehicles specifically designed for speed. Yet both are only marginally faster than Space Marines are. I would say it's absolutely obvious that unit speeds are massively adjusted in the game. It wouldn't be the same gameplay if air units suddenly went faster by a factor of 1000, now wouldn't it? And that would, likely, be still way too low.
The same goes for scanning range, weapon range, armour, shielding and weapons.


And of course, if it's contradicted elsewhere. If the Protoss are shown to be firing at ships from ranges of 300 000km. If their sensors are shown to be able to operate in terms of light years, then just go post counter examples. It's really not that hard is it. :oI haven't played the missions in a while now, but I seem to recall that in the mission briefings, they are operating on ranges at the very least comparable to Star Trek ranges.
Also, note that Protoss warp drives are several million times faster than Star Trek drives. The Protoss Empire spanned half the galaxy. The Voyager needs 70 years to cross that kind of distance.


The Federation is vastly underwritten in the shows. The Protoss aren't the only ones who suffer from that. :smalltongue: Time travel isn't used much because the Federation is being underwritten. I figured we were assuming that both races in this debate would not suffer from plot stupidity (i.e. underwriting) and would have access to their full complement of technologies (i.e. Federation has time travel, cloaking devices, transwarp etc.). I mean if only the Protoss can be written fairly and the Federation is compared to them in their underwritten form, it's a biased comparison.Okay, fair enough. I readily admit I have not read any Star Trek novels. To me, the show is the representation of Star Trek, and if there is anything that contradicts the show (by, for instance, making Star Trek technology much stronger than in the show), then it is this "anything" which is wrong, as the show is the original, "unwarped" depiction of Star Trek. On the other hand, the game obviously warps the abilities of the races to be playable, hence is not a fair representation.
However, I concede this is an entirely subjective argument, and therefore won't do much good in a fair discussion. Since we have different opinions on what constitutes the "real" Star Trek, I think it's best to agree to disagree. I withdraw from this discussion. :smallwink:

[Solo]

Phasors are not energy weapons. They are particle weapons. A phasor fires a beam of particles (protons if I remember right). They have mass and apparently still move at lightspeed!!!!! Yay for technobabble!

But if they have mass, once fired from the ship, they can't go beyond light speed because they'll have infinite mass.... and the particles dont' have a warp drive onboard.



One: The FEDs have CRAZY diplomats, so after the conflict (if it ever arises) the FEDs get more of the treaty in their favor.

Mind Control.

[Logic]

I readily admit I have not read any Star Trek novels.
Don't bother. Few are worth your time even if you are a rabid fan of Star Trek. (Like I am)

But if they have mass, once fired from the ship, they can't go beyond light speed because they'll have infinite mass.... and the particles dont' have a warp drive onboard.
In order for anything in Sci-fi to work you have to assume that anything that would normally be impossible that in stead it "operates on a level of physics we don't understand."

I highly doubt everything the Protoss has makes as much sense.

[zeratul]

I'm not using game mechanics. Speed is not really a gameplay mechanic. And of course, if it's contradicted elsewhere. If the Protoss are shown to be firing at ships from ranges of 300 000km. If their sensors are shown to be able to operate in terms of light years, then just go post counter examples. It's really not that hard is it. :o


The Federation is vastly underwritten in the shows. The Protoss aren't the only ones who suffer from that. :smalltongue: Time travel isn't used much because the Federation is being underwritten. I figured we were assuming that both races in this debate would not suffer from plot stupidity (i.e. underwriting) and would have access to their full complement of technologies (i.e. Federation has time travel, cloaking devices, transwarp etc.). I mean if only the Protoss can be written fairly and the Federation is compared to them in their underwritten form, it's a biased comparison.

Actually in this case speed is a gameplay mechanic. In books they have talked about the speed of the ships, there ability to easily destroy whole planets along with every organism on them, cloacking abilities, ludicrous weaponry and sheilding we have not seen in the games ect, ect , ect.

[Winterwind]

Yes, but did you read the part of the Theory of Special Relativity where it states that you cannot go faster than light?

Even if the ship was traveling faster than light due to tv show physics, the "laser" blast would travel at light speed....Doesn't matter. If you were in a space ship travelling at near light-speed and directed a flashlight forward, the light cone of the flashlight would move away from you at light-speed, still (that's the most basic rule of SRT - light always moves with c). Of course, for an external observer it would seem as if you and the light cone arrived almost simultaneously. Time dilatation amends this seemingly paradoxical situation.

Sorry. Just felt like killing a few catgirls. :smallwink:

[Solo]

In order for anything in Sci-fi to work you have to assume that anything that would normally be impossible that in stead it "operates on a level of physics we don't understand."

I highly doubt everything the Protoss has makes as much sense.

Well, Protoss obviously are psions and psiwarriors who make extensive use pf psicrystals....


Doesn't matter. If you were in a space ship travelling at near light-speed and directed a flashlight forward, the light cone of the flashlight would move away from you at light-speed, still (that's the most basic rule of SRT - light always moves with c)

Light moves at c. Never faster than c....

According to Bil Nye, anyways.

[Winterwind]

Light moves at c. Never faster than c....Yes - in every inertial system. If you were moving at 0.9c, and directed a flashlight forward, the light has to move away from you at c, still. If it moved away from you with only 0.1c, as you seem to imply, light wouldn't move with c in your inertial system anymore, now would it? :smallwink:
Somebody outside of your ship, in a resting inertial system, would see the light moving at c, you at 0.9c, and thus the light moving away from you at 0.1c, of course. This difference of perception comes to be because time slows down for you in your 0.9c spaceship by a factor of 2.29 due to your relativistic speed.

[Theodoriph]

"It is, in the sense that the speeds of all units are reduced to a similar scale. Wraiths are space fighters. Vultures are hover-vehicles specifically designed for speed. Yet both are only marginally faster than Space Marines are. I would say it's absolutely obvious that unit speeds are massively adjusted in the game. It wouldn't be the same gameplay if air units suddenly went faster by a factor of 1000, now wouldn't it? And that would, likely, be still way too low.
The same goes for scanning range, weapon range, armour, shielding and weapons."

I'll concede that that is likely true. The game was designed as an enjoyable ground war game. But, it's the only measurement I know of. If anyone who has read the books has a different one, they can feel free to talk about it.



"Also, note that Protoss warp drives are several million times faster than Star Trek drives. The Protoss Empire spanned half the galaxy. The Voyager needs 70 years to cross that kind of distance."

The "Enterprise" (aka the USS Monitor renamed for one mission), spanned around half the galaxy in 12 hours with their plug and play transwarp drive.



"Okay, fair enough. I readily admit I have not read any Star Trek novels. To me, the show is the representation of Star Trek, and if there is anything that contradicts the show (by, for instance, making Star Trek technology much stronger than in the show), then it is this "anything" which is wrong, as the show is the original, "unwarped" depiction of Star Trek. On the other hand, the game obviously warps the abilities of the races to be playable, hence is not a fair representation.
However, I concede this is an entirely subjective argument, and therefore won't do much good in a fair discussion. Since we have different opinions on what constitutes the "real" Star Trek, I think it's best to agree to disagree. I withdraw from this discussion. :smallwink:"


I agree to disagree :smallbiggrin:




Anyway, anyone who ever watched Star Trek: TNG knows how this would go. The Protoss would spend the first 50 minutes kicking the Federation's ass. Monitors with obscene voltage levels would explode, injuring a few random ensigns or lieutenants. And then Wesley would pipe up, "Sir, what if we modulate the power in the quantum transducers and feed it into the negative power couplings."

And then the Protoss would be wiped out in 9 minutes. And the captain's log would take up the last minute.



Edit: Damn...I forgot to throw in the word 'polarity'.

[Winterwind]

Anyway, anyone who ever watched Star Trek: TNG knows how this would go. The Protoss would spend the first 50 minutes kicking the Federation's ass. Monitors with obscene voltage levels would explode, injuring a few random ensigns or lieutenants. And then Wesley would pipe up, "Sir, what if we modulate the power in the quantum transducers and feed it into the negative power couplings."

And then the Protoss would be wiped out in 9 minutes. And the captain's log would take up the last minute.Shouldn't there be something about recalibrating the deflector, too? (Ah, the deflector. Is there anything you can't accomplish?) :smallbiggrin:

[Theodoriph]

Darn! I forgot something else!

By the way, while you guys are killing cat girls, I don't think there's any time dilation at warp speed...only at impulse. =D



Edit: Actually, there might be some internal consistency issues about time dilationat impulse. It wouldn't surprise me. In DS9 they can't even have the spaceship spinning in the right direction all the time. Hell...sometimes it's not spinning at all. And in the middle of one scene, it sped up and slowed down again. Ruddy ops lieutenants having fun with the spin controls. :smallfurious:


And for all those people boating about the Protoss' psi powers...I'm sorry...but they ain't got nothing on the doors in ST.

[Solo]

I meant to say " Light can travel at c, slower than c, but never above c."

Is there a physicist who will agree with your statement that if you shine a flashlight over the bow of a ship traveling near c, that the light will go at c+speed of the ship?

For the record, Bill Nye says it won't happen.

Edit: Article on faster than light travel http://www.math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/SpeedOfLight/FTL.html#7

[13_CBS]

One thing to remember:

IIRC in one episode, a 40 megawatt energy blast has little to no effect on Enterprise-D's shields. A 40 GIGAwatt blast, however, apparently makes a very solid "oomf!".

Keep that in mind.

[Winterwind]

I always assumed it is named "warp" because it warps space in such a fashion that a long distance becomes much shorter, and hence it becomes possible to cross it in short time without needing to resort to "real" FTL speed. But that's just my personal explanation on how this stuff might work.

Though... this Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stardate) here claims one of the usual explanations for the existence of stardates is time dilatation.

Ehm. Back to topic. :smalltongue:

EDIT:

I meant to say " Light can travel at c, slower than c, but never above c."

Is there a physicist who will agree with your statement that if you shine a flashlight over the bow of a ship traveling near c, that the light will go at c+speed of the ship?That's not my statement at all. Light always moves at c. It cannot move slower than c as long as it's moving through vacuum (and the only reason why it's slowed down while travelling through matter is because it's absorbed and re-emitted). And it most certainly can't move faster.
However, the meaning of "always moves at c" is that it moves at c in all inertial systems. And, yes, every physicist will agree with that statement, that's the core axiom of the Special Theory of Relativity. This is why relativistic effects like time dilatation and length contraction occur - to make this very fact happen. To make light move at light speed no matter whether you are at rest or are moving with high velocities yourself.

[Theodoriph]

And yet, from what they are able to do (cut a planet in two), Phasors are stronger than 40 gigawatts.

There are lots of inconsistensies like that in ST. It's a universe filled with nebulous explanations and dreaded plot holes.



My favourite is the explanation for the Klingon ridges (I think it was some epidemic that mutated them, but can't quite remember) =D Since they always got beat by Kirk in TOS, I always figured they were a form of plot armour.

Of course they blew their official explanation out of the water when Klingons in Enterprise had ridges.

[Solo]

http://www.math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/SpeedOfLight/headlights.html

In 1905 he realised how it could be that light always goes at the same speed no matter how fast you go. Events that are simultaneous in one reference frame will happen at different times in another that has a velocity relative to the first. Space and time cannot be taken as absolute. On this basis Einstein constructed the theory of special relativity, which has since been well confirmed by experiment.
Within your car you observe no unusual effects. You can look at yourself in your mirror which is moving with the car and you will look the same as usual. Looking out of the window is a different matter. The light from your headlights will always go at the speed of light in your reference frame. It will strike any object in its path and be reflected back. Everything else will be coming towards you at nearly the speed of light, so the light reflected from it will be Doppler shifted to very high frequencies--towards the ultraviolet or beyond. If you have a suitable camera you could take a snapshot. The objects passing are contracted in length but because of the different times of passage for the light and effects of aberration, the snapshot will show the objects you pass as rotated. See the relativity FAQ

Now I just need to figure out what it means in the vernacular.

[Winterwind]

http://www.math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/SpeedOfLight/headlights.html
[quote]In 1905 he realised how it could be that light always goes at the same speed no matter how fast you go. Events that are simultaneous in one reference frame will happen at different times in another that has a velocity relative to the first. Space and time cannot be taken as absolute. On this basis Einstein constructed the theory of special relativity, which has since been well confirmed by experiment.[/quote
Booyah!Exactly my statement. :smallamused:
Look to my last post for the detailed reply.

[Theodoriph]

I always assumed it is named "warp" because it warps space in such a fashion that a long distance becomes much shorter, and hence it becomes possible to cross it in short time without needing to resort to "real" FTL speed. But that's just my personal explanation on how this stuff might work.

Though... this Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stardate) here claims one of the usual explanations for the existence of stardates is time dilatation.

Ehm. Back to topic. :smalltongue:



Transwarp bends space...or well...you're travelling through 5-dimensional space (the borg had a space station in 5-dimensional space). I think warp just makes the ship light enough to be propelled to speeds in excess of that of light. I'd have to double check to make sure though.

It shouldn't work according to the theory of relativity, but I believe relativity was proven wrong in the ST universe =D I don't think they ever mentioned how though. :smallamused:

[Solo]

Why can't the laws of physics be simpler?

Or was God just feeling sadistic that day?

[Winterwind]

Transwarp bends space...or well...you're travelling through 5-dimensional space (the borg had a space station in 5-dimensional space). I think warp just makes the ship light enough to be propelled to speeds in excess of that of light. I'd have to double check to make sure though.If that's the explanation, I think I'll die from laughter. :smallbiggrin:
See, making something light enough to move at speeds higher than c is, strictly mathematically speaking, possible.
It would have to have an imaginary mass, though (imaginary as in square root of a negative number). That sort of particles are called tachyons and have the peculiarity of moving backwards through time. Oh, and any theory including them is, generally, dismissed for no other reason than including them. :smallamused:

It shouldn't work according to the theory of relativity, but I believe relativity was proven wrong in the ST universe =D I don't think they ever mentioned how though. :smallamused:Really? :smallbiggrin:
Cool. I wonder how. :smallamused:


Why can't the laws of physics be simpler?

Or was God just feeling sadistic that day?
Relativity is rather intuitive, actually, once one has grasped the basic concepts. Quantum mechanics, now that's where the fun begins. :smallbiggrin:

[Solo]

I'm unfamiliar with anything that has to do with physics unless it has to do with numbers crunching.


I still say 'toss win.

Dark Archon can mind control units, and ships count as units....

[Logic]

One thing to remember:

IIRC in one episode, a 40 megawatt energy blast has little to no effect on Enterprise-D's shields. A 40 GIGAwatt blast, however, apparently makes a very solid "oomf!".

Keep that in mind.

In the episode "Relics" (TNG season 6) Scotty says to La Forge that he can squeeze a couple extra gigawatts out of the sheilds of a vessel that has not been in service for 75 years. That implies their shields are in the gigawatt range, and that a few extra gigawatts would make some difference for a 75 year old vessel. I will not speculate on information that I do not have, but the Galaxy class Starship has more shield power than the 75 year old junker previously mentioned.

Hence, a 40 gigawatt energy discharge is probably going to strain the sheilds quite a bit.

Note: I have been able to catch up on all my TNG recently, so I am able to cite my sources if they appear in TNG.

[Twin2]

It's too bad the toss motherships don't have the singularity generator anymore. Not sure if the feds, or hell even the toss have a counter to "well I just opened a black hole right next to you all, have fun".

[averagejoe]

(and the only reason why it's slowed down while travelling through matter is because it's absorbed and re-emitted).

Small and irrelevant nitpick. Light slows down in matter because it's affected by the electromagnetic fields generated by the individual atoms, which tends to even out, but can still be felt at such small scales.

[13_CBS]

I'm unfamiliar with anything that has to do with physics unless it has to do with numbers crunching.


I still say 'toss win.

Dark Archon can mind control units, and ships count as units....

Unless, of course, the Feds catch on and simply blow away the unshielded Dark archons...

Oooh! What if the Feds bring in EMP? I don't recall them ever using such a device, but surely they could jury rig something up with that wonderful technobabble that they do. That, and Irradiation. Science Vessels FTW!

[Winterwind]

It's too bad the toss motherships don't have the singularity generator anymore. Not sure if the feds, or hell even the toss have a counter to "well I just opened a black hole right next to you all, have fun".That idea crossed my mind as well. That would have been a most definitely powerful technology which the Federation did not possess.

Small and irrelevant nitpick. Light slows down in matter because it's affected by the electromagnetic fields generated by the individual atoms, which tends to even out, but can still be felt at such small scales.I admit that the physics of solids is not exactly my specialty. I'm fairly sure the effect I mentioned is a major one; me saying light slowed down "only" because of it was obviously wrong, there are, for instance, gravitational effects as well. How much of a role the effect you propose plays in this, I have no idea. Maybe that's what's dominating; I don't feel like trying to find that in my books now.

[Theodoriph]

I found it =D The warp engine creates a spacetime warp bubble that allows the ship to be propelled at faster than light speed without time dilation. Not exactly the most luminous explanation.

A quantum singularity generator? Like the ones Romulans use to power their ships (except in weapon form). I always wondered why Romulans didn't try to adapt that tech into weapon form. Actually...I always wondered how you got energy from a quantum singularity.

[Damionte]

The protoss have superior technology. They could literally just turn invisible, vaporize the federation's home planet, then go away.

Dude.... have you ever even watched Star Trek. The whole idea of aliens that turn invisible came from that show. The Klingosn and Romulans, Even the Federation can all turn invisible.

[Executor]

Theodoriph: I'm curious where did this "Defiant can crack a planet in two" come from? If I remember correctly, during the Dominion War it took a 30-ship bombardment for several hours to do ANY substantial damage to the planet itself with their 'phasers' (The Die is Cast) A handful of Protoss ships melted the surface of Chau Sara, and later Mar Sara, eliminated all life, and did so in under a day for each planet. Assuming that the TV show is Canon and all other material is non-canon, than it looks like Protoss weaponry and technology is superior in general. For example: Can the Federation warp in structures directly from their homeworld? That is one gameplay mechanic that carries over onto the out-of-game canon. The Protoss Gateway, which serves as a link for infantry forces to transport to the front line, is essentially a stable, mini-wormhole. Can the Federation boast of such understanding and ease in manipulation space and time? Oh sure, they Time Travel every once in a while, but usually those are accidents involving quantum singularities, slingshotting around the sun and all other mishaps. They can't do purposefully and regularly. This stable use of warp technology means that if a SINGLE Protoss probe touches ground unnoticed on any planet the Federation wishes to keep, within a few hours they will have warped in the neccesary buildings and materials for a base and staging ground to let further Protoss forces onto the planet. The Protoss are not to be underestimated.

[averagejoe]

I admit that the physics of solids is not exactly my specialty. I'm fairly sure the effect I mentioned is a major one; me saying light slowed down "only" because of it was obviously wrong, there are, for instance, gravitational effects as well. How much of a role the effect you propose plays in this, I have no idea. Maybe that's what's dominating; I don't feel like trying to find that in my books now.

Gravity is a much weaker force than electromagnetics; just compare the gravitational constant to the elecromagnetic one (or whatever it's called.) While gravity effects light some, the most significant interactions tend to be electromagnetic, except near black holes and other wierd phenomena.

[13_CBS]

Theodoriph: I'm curious where did this "Defiant can crack a planet in two" come from? If I remember correctly, during the Dominion War it took a 30-ship bombardment for several hours to do ANY substantial damage to the planet itself with their 'phasers' (The Die is Cast) A handful of Protoss ships melted the surface of Chau Sara, and later Mar Sara, eliminated all life, and did so in under a day for each planet. Assuming that the TV show is Canon and all other material is non-canon, than it looks like Protoss weaponry and technology is superior in general. For example: Can the Federation warp in structures directly from their homeworld? That is one gameplay mechanic that carries over onto the out-of-game canon. The Protoss Gateway, which serves as a link for infantry forces to transport to the front line, is essentially a stable, mini-wormhole. Can the Federation boast of such understanding and ease in manipulation space and time? Oh sure, they Time Travel every once in a while, but usually those are accidents involving quantum singularities, slingshotting around the sun and all other mishaps. They can't do purposefully and regularly. This stable use of warp technology means that if a SINGLE Protoss probe touches ground unnoticed on any planet the Federation wishes to keep, within a few hours they will have warped in the neccesary buildings and materials for a base and staging ground to let further Protoss forces onto the planet. The Protoss are not to be underestimated.

Ahem. EMP shockwave.

[Winterwind]

Gravity is a much weaker force than electromagnetics; just compare the gravitational constant to the elecromagnetic one (or whatever it's called.) While gravity effects light some, the most significant interactions tend to be electromagnetic, except near black holes and other wierd phenomena.Sure it is, but light carries no electromagnetic charge. Photons will not change course because of an electromagnetic field. The interaction with the atoms electromagnetic field can induce effects like pair production, but that's about it.
You're right, of course, that gravity does not play any role, generally, unless we're talking about astrophysics; I just mentioned it for completeness' sake.

And I apologise to the OP for posting off-topic, repeatedly. I just feel compelled to answer, if somebody addresses me, and I don't know how to stop this chain-reaction. :smallwink:

[averagejoe]

Sure it is, but light carries no electromagnetic charge. Photons will not change course because of an electromagnetic field. The interaction with the atoms electromagnetic field can induce effects like pair production, but that's about it.
You're right, of course, that gravity does not play any role, generally, unless we're talking about astrophysics; I just mentioned it for completeness' sake.

Actually, light, as well as being a particle, is an electromagnetic wave. It propagates both an electric and magnetic field, both perpendicular to each other and the velocity of the wave, and it can be affected by EM interference.

Edit: Er, I have to agree with ^. I know that real physics has no place when discussing either Starcraft or Star Trek.

[Winterwind]

Actually, light, as well as being a particle, is an electromagnetic wave. It propagates both an electric and magnetic field, both perpendicular to each other and the velocity of the wave, and it can be affected by EM interference.Of course it's an EM wave, but EM waves are prone to superposition and just pass through each other.
You can't bend the light of a flashlight by making it pass through a magnet. :smallwink:

(Geez, it's 8am here. This forum is addictive! :smalleek:
...Good thing I make my own working times right now...)

[averagejoe]

Of course it's an EM wave, but EM waves are prone to superposition and just pass through each other.
You can't bend the light of a flashlight by making it pass through a magnet. :smallwink:

(Geez, it's 8am here. This forum is addictive! :smalleek:
...Good thing I make my own working times right now...)

Yes, that's true for light in a vaccum, but in nonlinear media such interactions do indeed occur.

[Winterwind]

Yes, that's true for light in a vaccum, but in nonlinear media such interactions do indeed occur.Hmmm... okay. I guess they do.
I shouldn't be arguing about physics at this hour. It can only end with embarassment. :smallbiggrin:

[averagejoe]

I feel the same way, except it's too late instead of too early. :smallsigh: (I'm just glad I turned out to be right. I was starting to wonder if I was just tired.)

But, yes, my point definitely proves that the Enterprise could beat the Gantrithor. See, I was on topic. :smalltongue:

[Solo]

Unless, of course, the Feds catch on and simply blow away the unshielded Dark Archons...



Well, in Star Trek, afaik, ships can get quite close to each other, possibly within range of mind cotnrol.


Oooh! What if the Feds bring in EMP? I don't recall them ever using such a device, but surely they could jury rig something up with that wonderful technobabble that they do. That, and Irradiation. Science Vessels FTW!

I think we should keep a list of special abilities for both sides.

In no particular order the Protoss have: Psionic Storm, Stasis Field, Disruption Web, Feedback (what do you think the Feedback damage on the Enterprise would be like?), Maelstrom, Mind Control, Hallucinations, Recall, Planet Cracker, Time Bomb, and Black Hole.

They can also warp in important buildings and stuff.

In the cutscenes and books, they are seen to have high powered energy weapons on their larger ships, capable of sterilizing planets

Who would like to compose the list for ST?


ps. Granted I know little about Star Trek, but I don't think it'd be a case of one side "wiping away" the other side without breaking a sweat.

[averagejoe]

Who would like to compose the list for ST?

That's the thing, there's a ton because the creators just kinda make them up as needed. However, there is the ability to precisely bombard ground forces from orbit, making ground troops mostly unneccessary, except in DS9, because that show was trying to be like a war drama in places. Also note that DS9 was the only Star Trek where any of the ships, federation or otherwise, ever missed when firing on something as large as an interstellar craft that didn't have something silly like cloaking or instant teleportation, probably to give it more of a space battle feel. The show doesn't have a terribly large amount of internal consistency, which makes a discussion like this hard. They've done a lot of really useful things which they promptly forget about at the end of an episode.

[zeratul]

Anyway, anyone who ever watched Star Trek: TNG knows how this would go. The Protoss would spend the first 50 minutes kicking the Federation's ass. Monitors with obscene voltage levels would explode, injuring a few random ensigns or lieutenants. And then Wesley would pipe up, "Sir, what if we modulate the power in the quantum transducers and feed it into the negative power couplings."

And then the Protoss would be wiped out in 9 minutes. And the captain's log would take up the last minute.



Edit: Damn...I forgot to throw in the word 'polarity'.

Hehe, you're right I geuss. I think Voltaire said it best

bounce a graviton particle beam off the main deflector dish
Thats the way we do things, lad, we're making **** up as we wish
The Klingons and the Romulans pose no threat to us
'Cause if we find we're in a bind we just make some **** up

[Indon]

Well, since neither the Protoss nor the Federation are particularly aggressive, I consider it likely they would simply parley and enter negotiations before any significant battle began. Thus the 'battle' ends in a draw.

[Thrivol]

Well, since neither the Protoss nor the Federation are particularly aggressive, I consider it likely they would simply parley and enter negotiations before any significant battle began. Thus the 'battle' ends in a draw.Well, it depends on the diplomat.

Kirk: Seduce them. Duh.
Picard: Talk them into giving up their secrets. Not to mention the Protoss worship Picard.
Sisko: He'll just talk to those aliens in the wormhole and find out how to negotiate with the Protoss.
Janeway: Protoss do not like Janeway. They kill her, forming a strong alliance between Protoss and the Federation.
Archer: Protoss do not like Archer. They kill him and the people on Earth for making Archer a captain.

Yes.

[PaladinBoy]

As for the whole "can phasers be fired at lightspeed" debate, the answer, according to the NextGen Technical Manual, is no. Or rather, "the tactical value of phaser energy at warp velocities, and indeed high relativistic velocities, is close to none." This is, again according to the Technical Manual, why photon torpedoes were developed.

I wouldn't know about accuracy. I've only seen DS9, and the accuracy there was pretty bad. Even if you use the apparently better accuracies in other shows, you still have to contend with the fact that neither the Federation nor its enemies has ever had anything like small one-man fighters (at least, IIRC, which I might not), which is exactly what Scouts, Corsairs, or Pheonixes are. Interceptors are even worse. Good luck hitting that...... and even if a Fed ship can hit an Interceptor, it still has to contend with the fact that the Carrier that launched it has dozens more, and can produce more as long as it has resources.

Reaching and destroying the Carrier would solve that problem, but I don't think it's quite that easy. For one thing, I'm still not convinced that Fed weapons are more powerful that Protoss weapons. They are both capable of slagging planets; without knowing more about this situation in which the Defiant broke a planet in half with its phasers, I'm doubtful about that. Even so, Protoss Motherships can savage planets.... and no, they are not superweapons, they are heavy capital starships. At least according to the SCII website. The primary reason I can think of for other Protoss starships not being able to do that is that most of them are smaller.

I also have another problem.... Protoss cloaking. A couple Arbiters could have a massive effect on the battle between their cloaking and Stasis Field. IIRC, that one time the Federation used a "ship web" to catch cloaked Romulans was more of a blockade situation...... I'm not sure how well it'll work when you've got dozens of cloaked Interceptors breaking each line several times in the space of a few seconds. And a couple cloaked Shuttles with boarding parties could make life very difficult for the Federation. This would entail the loss of numerous Arbiters flying through the combat zone, but it seems effective.

Finally, there is a huge disparity between their infantry strengths. A couple Zealots with their shields and physical strength would be a major problem aboard a Federation starship...... don't even get me started about Dark or High Templar. If the Protoss can land boarding parties on the Federation ships, then those ships are doomed. That is a pretty big if, though.......... Also, the planet's surface would belong to the Protoss until the Federation bombarded the surface. Perhaps not even then; the Protoss do have shields and armor.

And while an EMP wave would down Protoss shields, it's not like they'll instantly die. They do have armor. It would be a problem; how much of one is a bit of a question. Personally, I don't think it'd be that much of a problem.

Finally, what may be a more telling problem in the long run: Federation starships (with the exception of the Defiant-class ships) are not warships, and the Federation doesn't generally spend its time on a war footing. The Protoss are warriors; particularly after the destruction of Aiur. They are ready for war and designing new technology to deal with it. That might give them an advantage at the beginning, although the Federation would catch up eventually.

[LordVader]

Dude.... have you ever even watched Star Trek. The whole idea of aliens that turn invisible came from that show. The Klingosn and Romulans, Even the Federation can all turn invisible.

Their ships can. Not their ground warriors. And of course, the Federation has literally zero ground troops, meaning the 'Toss would eventually win any war by simply depriving the Feds of their planets, and starving them out.

Also, Arbiters would WTFPWN the Federation, at least the first time. Look what happened at Wolf 359 when they went up against something new and unexpected.:smalltongue:

[Talkkno]

I find this disscussion a moot point, as concluded in this thread. If the Protoss can hold a chance at the Empire...theres no way the Federation stands a chance.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52666
EDIT: May I remind everyone that books for Star Trek are not canon.

[LordVader]

The Federation's disadvantages simply cannot be overcome.
1. They are not combat-oriented, whereas that's all the Protoss do.
2. They are vastly technologically inferior, Toss technology is many times more powerful then theirs. Examples are Carriers, Arbiters, and Reavers.
3. Protoss are better-trained and naturally stronger- their inherent psi abilities give them an edge against humans, whereas they also have much more experience due to longer lifespans.

[LCR]

Have you seen the same Star Trek shows I did?

Aside of Deep Space Nine, which was a rather weak attempt at bringing a war story into the Star Trek universe, Federation weapons (at least phasers) always hit.
Also, the Federation managed to fight off the Borg, who are, in my opinion, stronger than the Protoss.
Another point is that obviously, the Terran Empire from Star Craft seems to stand a chance against the Protoss, while being less advanced than the Federation.
Someone mentioned that the Protoss could just mind control everyone, but I think that can be easily countered by using Vulcans/Androids/Holograms.

As a last attempt, the Federation could just choose to clone Jason Bourne, which would result in the immediate death of all Protoss.

[Logic]

Have you seen the same Star Trek shows I did?

Aside of Deep Space Nine, which was a rather weak attempt at bringing a war story into the Star Trek universe, Federation weapons (at least phasers) always hit.
Also, the Federation managed to fight off the Borg, who are, in my opinion, stronger than the Protoss.
Another point is that obviously, the Terran Empire from Star Craft seems to stand a chance against the Protoss, while being less advanced than the Federation.
Someone mentioned that the Protoss could just mind control everyone, but I think that can be easily countered by using Vulcans/Androids/Holograms.

As a last attempt, the Federation could just choose to clone Jason Bourne, which would result in the immediate death of all Protoss.

I prefer DS9 to all other Star Trek, I do not think of it as a weak attempt to bring War into the Trek Universe, LCR is correct that prior to DS9, phasers never missed. Torpedos could, and would on occasion, but not too terribly often.

I counter the Borg argument because the Borg have only half heartedly tried to invade the Federation. If the Federation and Borg space were a little closer together, I doubt the Federation would survive long.

[LCR]

I prefer DS9 to all other Star Trek, I do not think of it as a weak attempt to bring War into the Trek Universe, LCR is correct that prior to DS9, phasers never missed. Torpedos could, and would on occasion, but not too terribly often.

I counter the Borg argument because the Borg have only half heartedly tried to invade the Federation. If the Federation and Borg space were a little closer together, I doubt the Federation would survive long.

Well, they send their queen (well, one of them) back in time, only to assimilate Earth. Seems quite desperate to me, although I agree that it is rather strange that they only sent one cube every ten years.

In DS9, the Federation also had attack fighters, although they wouldn't be necessary, if Federation ships had the accuracy from the other shows.

The comparison Federation/Terran Empire (SC) still stands. The empire seems to be a match to the Protoss, so the Federation would win hands down.

On another note, why would the Federation even fight? They are peaceful and from what I've learned from "StarCraft", the Protoss don't fly through space annihilating worlds unless they're infected by the Zerg.
I think there would be enough commong ground for diplomatic relations.

[Hannes]

Well... Protoss win. Arbiter's stasis field anyone?

USS Whatever commander: Power up the ultra1337 cannon!
Redshirt: Um... Sir... Our ship seems to be held within an impenetrable field.
USS Whatever commander: Nevermind! We'll blast our way out!
*blast occurs, nothing happens*
*ship surrounded by many shuttles*
USS Whatever commander: Issue the order for mass suicide.
*brains fly*

Seriously, the protoss just send in a fleet of Arbiters through black holes, keep on stasising the starships and send in their infantry fleets.

[LCR]

How are shuttles an issue? Phasers easily hit them and probably destroy them very quickly.
And why wouldn't Federation shields work against stasis field? Maybe not from the beginning, but I'm sure they could adapt.

[Hannes]

Shuttles are an issue because they'll be -on- the starship after the stasis field wears out. Also, the Federation wouldn't have enough time to research beams which get through stasis fields when the Protoss go to war.

EDIT: Stasis field doesn't affect the ship, it goes AROUND the ship. Of course, you can expand your shields to go out to 250 metres, but that would be a power sucker.

EDIT: This is the stasis field ability, used by ONE arbiter.
http://entropyzero.org/screens/arbiter1.jpg

[LCR]

Well, you know how it goes ...

Enterprise gets trapped in a impenetrable stasis field, everything seems hopeless and then they fire a focused, polaron beam infused with tachyons from their main deflector dish - and poof! goes the stasis field.

[Hannes]

... I just understood something.
That this argument sucks! There is no way for any side to win! But still I go on.
Sure, you could pierce a hole into the field, but a hole not big enough for you to go through, I guess, unless you can fire beams larger than your ship. Then, however, you create a space from which a shuttle could easily slip in and get through fast, and again, death.
EDIT: Or they just recreate the stasis field.

[LCR]

The thing you don't understand is that the Federation has invincible hero captains, androids, technobabble, cooler ships AND Wesley Crusher ("Sir, couldn't we just ...").
If that doesn't help, they can freeze time at will (ST: Armada) and even manipulate time if they feel like it.
They can also clone Kirk, who will then proceed to sleep with the Protoss Queen (or King!).


But sure, the argument itself is pretty senseless.

[Hannes]

The Protoss don't have a king or a queen! They have a Conclave, consisting of I don't know how many High Templars. Also, time manipulating = very energy costly, don't you think?

EDIT: I'm in this because I'm sick, at home and have nothing else to do.

[LCR]

The Protoss don't have a king or a queen! They have a Conclave, consisting of I don't know how many High Templars. Also, time manipulating = very energy costly, don't you think?

Well, not so much. In that Star Trek movie they just flew into the sun.
And you really think that a Conclave will stop Kirk from seducing them all? The more, the better!

[Hannes]

The Protoss can read Kirk's mind and understand his true intentions? They all have been married with sexy Protoss women for centuries?

EDIT: Also, they cannot WTFPWN the Protoss using time travel because a) they will be WTFPWNed by the Xel'Naga, the ones who accelerated the Protoss evolution b) they will time travel straight into the golden era for the Protoss.

[LCR]

The Protoss can read Kirk's mind and understand his true intentions? They all have been married with sexy Protoss women for centuries?

Well, Kirk's intentions are entirely honorable. I'm sure he loves them all with all his heart. It's just ...there's only one Kirk and soooo many ...um, creatures, see?

[Hannes]

Well, the Protoss conclave consists of lawful stupid Protoss, so they read "The earthling wants to have hawt, passionate love with us all for the sake of mankind."
*psi storm*

[LCR]

Well, the Protoss conclave consists of lawful stupid Protoss, so they read "The earthling wants to have hawt, passionate love with us all for the sake of mankind."
*psi storm*

This'll be the last thing the Protoss see ...

http://kensforce.com/06startek1.jpg

... before Kirk makes sweeeeeeeet love to them.

EDIT: You don't wanna know what that ... thing ... in his hands is for.

[Hannes]

Now now... Don't get me started, I have coffee, I'm bored and there will be no limit except the power of the moderators to stop me from turning this thread into a realm of horror.

[LCR]

How can it be worse?
It's Kirk and he's ready to do whatever is necessary.

[Hannes]

Kirk. In the action. Being surprised by a zealot. Who is also ready to do whatever's necessary.

[LCR]

Poor Zealot. They will have to erase his memory, after what he will have seen ...

[Solo]

The comparison Federation/Terran Empire (SC) still stands. The empire seems to be a match to the Protoss, so the Federation would win hands down.

I still don't see how a conflict between the two races would result in a "hands down" victory for one side, as they both have very capable technology and leadership.

Don't forget that Protoss have what are possibly the strongest units in Starcraft, hence why they cost a lot of money and take up more population than say, the Zerg or Terrans.

I'm still waiting for someone to define exactly what the Federation is capable of in this hypothetical match, though, as it was noted, since the Federation power level varies widely in different forms of media, perhaps the 'toss and the Federation can't be compared accurately.


I still say 'toss would win though.:smallamused:

[Hannes]

The Protoss win because of the Federation overconfidence! Just as a professional Magic player can get WTFPWNed by a Lava Axe, since "Noone plays Lava Axe!" and he doesn't expect it.

[LordVader]

That and the fact that they have a warrior tradition stretching back thousands of years, and far superior combat technology.:smalltongue:

[LCR]

Well, the Federation is obviously much more advanced than the StarCraft Terrans.
For example, the Terrans rely mostly on armor, the Federation has highly advanced shielding systems (especially against energy weapons).
The Terrans are still using projectile weapons (at least as personal weapons), the Federation has energy/particle weapons.
The Terrans still use Nukes, the Federation has much more advanced weaponry (Quantum torpedoes, Tricobalt weapons).
Federation weapons always hit (disregarding pulse phasers and the occasional torpedo).
The Terrans have probably better infantry, since there is not really a Federation army, but the Federation has beaming technology, which might make the personal advantage of a space marine obsolete.
Sensors are speculative, but the Federation sensors are probably more advanced, due to their overall technological edge.

The point is, since the Federation is much more advanced than the Terrans and the Terrans still pose a threat to the Protoss, it is likely that the Protoss will be no match for the Federation.

[Winterwind]

The comparison Federation/Terran Empire (SC) still stands. The empire seems to be a match to the Protoss, so the Federation would win hands down.While debatable (and I'm sure to earn the wrath of some Terran player by this statement), I got the impression the Terran Confederation/Dominion wouldn't stand much of a chance against the Protoss, if the latter really wanted to eradicate it and wouldn't have to deal with the Zerg at the same time.

[LordVader]

You know why the Terrans posed a threat? The only battle they fought the Protoss in on land, the Toss were primarily concerned with the Zerg Swarm. That and the fact that the Protoss are ridiculously scaled down ingame. They never glass any planets after Mara Sara, etc.

And I like the Terrans, fact is, unless they have vastly superior numbers, they don't really have a chance against 'Toss.:smallfrown:

[Winterwind]

They never glass any planets after Mara Sara, etc.And that only because of Tassadar's compassion for the Terrans, for which he is punished by the Conclave. If he had followed orders, he would have glassed Tarsonis, the Confederation's capital world.

[LordVader]

*cough cough deus ex cough cough*
:smalltongue:

[Ditto]

On the meta-level, the Federation would win because of technobabble, Wesley Crusher, and the fact that its characters are PCs. (You control the characters in Starcraft, but it's a whole different animal. You can die in Starcraft. People don't die in Star Trek - at least, as long as we're paying attention to them with the camera.)

In universe - I don't know why the stasis field would be an insurmountable obstacle.
-"They wouldn't have time to research it?" How short do you think this war is going to be? They aren't just going to have one GIANT space battle and decide who the winner is based on that. The Federation developed solutions for neutralizing the Jem'Hadar's shrouding, as well as the Breen energy dampening weapon, as well as developing an entirely new uber warship (the Prometheus... and the Akira, really) within the span of the war (the Prometheus had a prototype in space within 2 years - no mean feat).
-The Federation *does* have fighters and ground troops, and succeeded in fighting an enemy with technically superior forces in both - the Jem'Hadar are superior from a technical standpoint since they were built from the ground up for combat, and Jem'Hadar fighters are faster and more manueverable than most Federation fighters. Nonetheless, the Federation prevailed.
-I don't know why some folks think shielding takes massive and highly expensive (and by implication, prohibitively so) of energy. The M/AMR systems are capable of chucking giant honking ships past the lightspeed barrier; producing all manner of fun phaser effects that, as mentioned, has been able to core a planet with great precision; and protect them for hours at a time from the intense pressures, heat, and radiation within the corona or a star.

I'm not saying it's a slam-dunk, but I would not discount the Federation by a longshot.

[LordVader]

*snorts at comparison between phaser-wielding Federation ratings on the ground and real soldiers*

Likewise, people seem to think the Federation can magically come up with some kind of technological solution for anything in one to two years. That doesn't happen.

PCs have no effect either. They do and will die as easily as your average redshirt, it's just the fact that they're plot-central that keeps them alive.

[Hannes]

The Protoss use warpholes while the Federation uses lightspeed. Also, the Protoss only need to send battalions of zealots on the surface of the planet; the Federation has two choices a)try to attack the Protoss homeworld(s) b) bombard their own planets into non-existence.

ST fans, just give it up. The Protoss are seriously only pwned because they have to fight with the Zerg, which is a race made to be the exact opposite of their own. Also, saying that "main characters can't die" and "There's this advisor who has great ideas" doesn't really help. The Protoss are psionic! Their society is BASED on warfare. I think that the Protoss would come up with better strategies and counter-strategies than the Federation.

[LordVader]

They would. Also, there seems to be the idea that the Federation can magically come up with a technological counter to the Protoss's various abilities and technological superiorities. Technological breakthroughs are not magic. They require time, lots and lots of time, which the Federation would not have. And as previously stated, they'd have the choice between destroying all of their planets or letting the 'Toss take them. Either way, they lose.

[Hannes]

Vader, high five!

[Emperor Tippy]

I give the win to the protoss in both the OP's original scenario and in an all out war.

The Federation will never win on the ground and they can't cut the Protoss supply lines, meaning that the protoss get the planet unless the federation glasses it (which makes could be considered a draw in regards to the OP's situation).

In an all out war the Protoss win because of their superior FTL capabilities. They will always be the attacking force and will choose the time and place of every battle. The protoss warp into a system with a single ship, see how many federation ships are there and then warp out to get reinforcements. They warp in with overwhelming numbers and glass the planet before any other federation world even knows that the protoss are attacking it.

Inside a month the Protoss can eliminate pretty much every inhabited world in federation space.

[Indon]

The Federation will never win on the ground and they can't cut the Protoss supply lines, meaning that the protoss get the planet unless the federation glasses it (which makes could be considered a draw in regards to the OP's situation).


And why is that? The Federation is capable of effective space bombardment, and I doubt the Protoss warp generators are small and easily concealable from space superiority.

And one should - indeed can - not discount the Federation's technological adaptability. That is the upside to their not focusing on military matters; in Civilization terms, they would be the player who has only a minimal garrison in every city, but has all the research upgrades, and is miles ahead in the research game before long.

[LordVader]

Except the Protoss have the massive technological advantage, can easily crush the Federation Starfleet, and also, technology is not magic. The Federation can't just pull a counter to every technological advantage the 'Toss have out of its sleeve the moment the war starts. That would take years, years they would not have.

Alternatively, the Protoss could just warp in, glass the planet, and warp out. Lather, rinse, repeat. And no way the Federation can stop them.

[Solo]

While debatable (and I'm sure to earn the wrath of some Terran player by this statement), I got the impression the Terran Confederation/Dominion wouldn't stand much of a chance against the Protoss, if the latter really wanted to eradicate it and wouldn't have to deal with the Zerg at the same time.

The Terrans only stand a chance against the Protoss because the Protoss are proccupied fighting the Zerg.

[BRC]

The impression ive gotten is that if every terran millitary force in the sector worked together they could have held off both the protoss and the zerg.
However, the terrans were split up between the confederacy, the kel-morian combine, the umojen protectorate, and all the other groups that wouldn't work together if their lives depended on it. and since they didn't, they suffered a solid defeat.

[Winterwind]

In an all out war the Protoss win because of their superior FTL capabilities. They will always be the attacking force and will choose the time and place of every battle. The protoss warp into a system with a single ship, see how many federation ships are there and then warp out to get reinforcements. They warp in with overwhelming numbers and glass the planet before any other federation world even knows that the protoss are attacking it.

Inside a month the Protoss can eliminate pretty much every inhabited world in federation space.Indeed. Throughout all shows, Star Trek ships are practically immobile if compared to the Toss FTL capabilities. The Toss could strike whereever they wanted to, whenever they wanted to, and the Federation would never catch up, never be able to gather their forces sufficiently to counter the Protoss fleets. If they spread their ships across all Federation space, the Toss will slaughter them with their entire fleet, one by one. If they assemble their fleets at strategically important points, the Toss will wreck or conquer all undefended worlds.


The Terrans only stand a chance against the Protoss because the Protoss are proccupied fighting the Zerg.That's what I said.
Presumably, that's why in the original StarCraft there is practically no conflict between Terrans and Protoss whatsoever (there's only one mission in the Terran campaign and one Terran battlecruiser fleet in the Protoss campaign), not much more in the Brood War campaigns, and whenever the two races meet it's usually just small expeditionary forces.

[LCR]

Obviously, you know more about StarCraft than I do. My impression from the game is that the Protoss -while technologically advanced- couldn't stand against serious efforts made by the Federation.
This is mainly because the Protoss aren't as thought out as the Star Trek universe is and Federation captains faced almost every possible enemy in the course of the shows which leads me to the conclusion that would adapt pretty quickly to a Protoss attack.

[LordVader]

Here's basically what happens.
Day 1:War is declared.
Day 2: Protoss ships suddenly appear simultaneously everwhere in the Federation, glass all planets of significance, and leave.
Day 3: Protoss finish mopping up the remainders.
Day 4: GG.


Each and every Protoss has had thousands of years of experience as a warrior/strategist/commander or whatever else they do. The Federation's officers simply wouldn't even come close.

Also, you assume that the Federation would adapt to the Protoss. However, it's even more likely that the Protoss would adapt to the Federation. They have more experience and better skills.

[LCR]

How do you know they have better skills?
As far as I know, the Protoss homeworld was taken over by the Zerg, while the Federation managed to protect Earth/Vulcan/Andoria from most threats.

[Solo]

How do you know they have better skills?
As far as I know, the Protoss homeworld was taken over by the Zerg, while the Federation managed to protect Earth/Vulcan/Andoria from most threads.

That the Federation managed to protect Earth from pieces of string is nothing to boast of.

[LCR]

That the Federation managed to protect Earth from pieces of string is nothing to boast of.

I have already corrected that typo.

[Miraqariftsky]

The only ship that's shown any kind of resilience in the TV show is the Defiant, which managed to survive a few minutes, unshielded, against a Klingon battlecruiser.



Really? How about the Federation post-Voyager? Didn't the Voyager retur to the Alpha Quadrant kitted out with armour enough to withstand Borg technology? Didn't it have, yes, quantum torpedoes capable of passing right through Borg shield matrices? Didn't it come back with transwarp coils?

Wouldn't anti-Borg technology serve as a sort of leveller against the oh-so-superior Protoss?

[Solo]

Really? How about the Federation post-Voyager? Didn't the Voyager retur to the Alpha Quadrant kitted out with armour enough to withstand Borg technology? Didn't it have, yes, quantum torpedoes capable of passing right through Borg shield matrices? Didn't it come back with transwarp coils?

Wouldn't anti-Borg technology serve as a sort of leveller against the oh-so-superior Protoss?

If the Borg were Protoss yes, but last time I checked, the Borg and the Protoss were kinda different.

[Miraqariftsky]

Eh? @^ In that analogy, the Fed-Borg balance was tipped over outrightly in favor of the Feds. Applying the newfound tech to the current concundrum, would not the said Fed-'Toss balance of power at least even out?

[Indon]

That's a big conundrum in this: At what point in their respective histories are the Federation and Protoss facing off?

Are the Federation the relatively-advanced (probably about Terran-level) Federation of the original series years, the somewhat militarily impressive organization of TNG, or the souped-up power of later series or beyond?

Are these the Protoss of the Xel-Naga golden age, the pre-Khala dark ages, the Zerg-decimated forces of almost negligable number, or the recovering, united Protoss?

[Emperor Tippy]

That's a big conundrum in this: At what point in their respective histories are the Federation and Protoss facing off?

Are the Federation the relatively-advanced (probably about Terran-level) Federation of the original series years, the somewhat militarily impressive organization of TNG, or the souped-up power of later series or beyond?

Are these the Protoss of the Xel-Naga golden age, the pre-Khala dark ages, the Zerg-decimated forces of almost negligable number, or the recovering, united Protoss?

It really doesn't matter. So long as the Protoss have enough ships to glass a planet (which they do at all of those listed times) they win. The single most important thing in vs. threads for space going empires is the respective speeds of the ships. Even if every federation ship had a death star level laser they would still lose. Even if those ships had shields that could withstand the aforementioned laser they would lose.

Warp in, glass the planet, warp out. The protoss will be gone before the federation gets the message that its world is under attack.

[Hannes]

How do you know they have better skills?
As far as I know, the Protoss homeworld was taken over by the Zerg, while the Federation managed to protect Earth/Vulcan/Andoria from most threats.

As I mentioned before, the Zerg are the exact opposite of the Protoss; while every Protoss has a psionic mind, only the Overmind controls the troops for the Zerg. Protoss are high-tech, perfectionist, Zerg are no-tech, organical and massed. Also, both were basically created by the Xel'Naga, meaning that they CAN be the exact opposites. (Protoss are Purity of Form, Zerg are Purity of Essence, meaning that the Overmind can be made from the Cerebrates and Cerebrates can be made from larvae. Only thing that can destroy cerebrates without easily being revived by the Overmind is the energy Dark Templar use.) Was the Federation attacked by their exact opposites?

[Miraqariftsky]

Eh? Mirror Universe humanity, anyone?

[Winterwind]

Actually, I think the Borg would qualify very well as "opposite" of the Federation.

I also think, however, that if not for an incredibly massive plot shield the Borg would have wiped out the Federation long ago.

[Hannes]

It seems the Federation only survived because of plot shields, yay for weird/bad story. I mean, the Protoss are pretty effed currently, and might be even more effed, since hybrids are in making.

[LCR]

As I mentioned before, the Zerg are the exact opposite of the Protoss; while every Protoss has a psionic mind, only the Overmind controls the troops for the Zerg. Protoss are high-tech, perfectionist, Zerg are no-tech, organical and massed. Also, both were basically created by the Xel'Naga, meaning that they CAN be the exact opposites. (Protoss are Purity of Form, Zerg are Purity of Essence, meaning that the Overmind can be made from the Cerebrates and Cerebrates can be made from larvae. Only thing that can destroy cerebrates without easily being revived by the Overmind is the energy Dark Templar use.) Was the Federation attacked by their exact opposites?

I also think the Borg qualify as opposites.


Edit:Ninja'd.


It seems the Federation only survived because of plot shields, yay for weird/bad story. I mean, the Protoss are pretty effed currently, and might be even more effed, since hybrids are in making.

It's fiction, of course there's plot involved and of course they are "shielded" by the plot.
That doesn't mean it is "unrealistic" (well, it's still science-fiction), the Federation has great scientists, so why shouldn't they find ways to defeat most enemies?

[Hannes]

Well... If they meet an aggressive, purely combat race, there wouldn't normally be enough time for research...

[Leon]

What's the catgirl bodycount so far?

Enough for Ablative Armour on both sides

i didnt read the second part of the OP and had been thinking the discussion was about the Trade Federation till about half way down the 1st page

But my vote goes to Protoss

[LordVader]

Let's look at this. The Borg have 5 times as many ships as the Federation, each one of which is massively more powerful then any comparable Fed ship. And yet they only send 1 or 2 ships to attack the Federation?


Does anyone else here smell Deus Ex Machina?

And you're missing my point. Finding counters takes time. Slow, agonizing time. Time which they will not have.

[LCR]

Well... If they meet an aggressive, purely combat race, there wouldn't normally be enough time for research...

Aggressive, purely combat race? Like Klingons? Jem'Hadar?

[LordVader]

And how many massive technological breakthroughs did they have in the first 2 months of facing the Jem'Hadar? Cause that's all the Protoss would need. And Jem'Hadar are far weaker then 'Toss.

[LCR]

And how many massive technological breakthroughs did they have in the first 2 months of facing the Jem'Hadar? Cause that's all the Protoss would need. And Jem'Hadar are far weaker then 'Toss.

Again, how do you know that? That's speculation.

[LordVader]

Let's look at this. All major technological innovations have taken time. The Atom Bomb took over five years. The rocket took how many, like 20? The point is, no matter how jesus-like your scientists are, they're not going to make world-shattering discoveries overnight. And that's fact.

[LCR]

Let's look at this. All major technological innovations have taken time. The Atom Bomb took over five years. The rocket took how many, like 20? The point is, no matter how jesus-like your scientists are, they're not going to make world-shattering discoveries overnight. And that's fact.

My scientists? :smallconfused:
The point is, you can't really prove that the Protoss would be superior, while I think the comparison Federation/Terran Confederacy is accurate in showing that the Federation and the Protoss are at least on par.

[LordVader]

By "your scientists", I was referring to any race's scientists in general. And we've already established that the Terrans beat them because the 'Toss were fighting the Zerg and Terrans at once. Were you paying attention for the last page?:smallconfused:

And no, they are not on par. The basic Federation redshirt is a man with a phaser, at best. The basic Toss redshirt is a hundreds-years-old alien with two blades that cut through anything on his arms, a massive suit of armor, shields, and psychic ability. Just from that comparison, we can see that the two races are not on par.

[Emperor Tippy]

My scientists? :smallconfused:
The point is, you can't really prove that the Protoss would be superior, while I think the comparison Federation/Terran Confederacy is accurate in showing that the Federation and the Protoss are at least on par.

No.

The Protoss could have easily crushed the Terran's but they chose to stop glassing Terran inhabited worlds. They were also fighting a war against the Zerg that was the far more important fight.

And I have already proven that the Protoss would crush the Federation, they have the speed advantage.

And if we go with each side at the height of its respective power the Protoss absolutely crush, they controlled over half the galaxy while the Federation controlled less than a sector of the galaxy.

[LCR]

No.

The Protoss could have easily crushed the Terran's but they chose to stop glassing Terran inhabited worlds. They were also fighting a war against the Zerg that was the far more important fight.

And I have already proven that the Protoss would crush the Federation, they have the speed advantage.

And if we go with each side at the height of its respective power the Protoss absolutely crush, they controlled over half the galaxy while the Federation controlled less than a sector of the galaxy.

Where in StarCraft is their speed mentioned?

[LordVader]

Speed as in they can warp between distant systems instantly, and the Federation has to slog it across system after system with the slow and outmoded warp drive.
It's the thing that WTFPWNs the Federation above all else in any match-up, simply because other forces can move and attack so much faster that all the Federation's planets are gone before they can even respond.

[....]

Three arbiters fly up toward a little grouping of Federation ships (since even when earth is about to be destroyed by a Borg cube they can't seem to pull together more than eight or so).

Arbiters are hailed and asked to stand down. Arbiters use Stasis Field, locking the ships away in space-time. The protoss fleet that the Arbiters were cloaking fly past the frozen ships and land on the planet while the three arbiters take turns keeping Stasis Field up. Once a secure beachead has been warped in, the Protoss send up more ships and wait for the field to drop, then butcher the Federation.

[Emperor Tippy]

Where in StarCraft is their speed mentioned?

The Protoss have near instantaneous warp travel across the entire galaxy. The Federation takes 70 years to cross 1 quadrant of a galaxy.

[....]

The Protoss have near instantaneous warp travel across the entire galaxy. The Federation takes 70 years to cross 1 quadrant of a galaxy.

Yeah, you know how you're "building" units in starcraft?

Protoss don't "build" them. They warp them in from somewhere on Aiur.

Not to mention that as soon as a Zealot's life signs go critical they vanish in a puff of blue smoke as they are instantly warped to a facility where they are turned into Dragoons.

[Winterwind]

Another thing occured to me...

Let's look at the Zerg, shall we?
Hydralisk hides are powerful enough to deflect full-automatic fire of Gauss rifles. This means they are of equal or greater durability as pretty much any real-life metal. Star Trek metals do not seem to be terribly beyond our capabilities - without their shields, Star Trek ships are wrecked instantly by pretty much anything that hits them. Phasers can melt through Star Trek ship doors, but take time to do so. Therefore, while speculative, it seems reasonable to me that a hydralisk could take at least a few phasor hits.
Your typical Zerg brood counts something of the order of trillions or quadrilions of beings (I am not certain whether there wasn't a translation error on this part in the German version; it is told at the end of the normal StarCraft Terran campaign, so maybe someone with the English version could look this up).
That was just one brood. The Zerg have many of them.

The Protoss are able to fight against that.

I can hardly imagine the Federation accomplishing the same.

So, I think the Protoss would be able to defeat the Federation.

EDIT: Corrected the errors in my StarCraft terminology, as kindly pointed out by LordVader.

[BRC]

Well, technically the protoss only beat the zerg because of two enders games, first they blew up the overmind, then they used the ancient Xel-naga temple of macguffin to blow up all the zerg on shakuras. they never actually win a campaign against the zerg with pure force-of-arms.

[BRC]

Well, technically the protoss only beat the zerg because of two enders games, first they blew up the overmind, then they used the ancient Xel-naga temple of macguffin to blow up all the zerg on shakuras. they never actually win a campaign against the zerg with pure force-of-arms.

[LordVader]

The Zerg Swarm refers to the entire race, not the different parts. Those are Broods. The Zerg Swarm, as a whole, has at least trillions of organisms, yes.

Hell, even the Terrans would whip the Federation around.:smallcool:

[Winterwind]

Well, technically the protoss only beat the zerg because of two enders games, first they blew up the overmind, then they used the ancient Xel-naga temple of macguffin to blow up all the zerg on shakuras. they never actually win a campaign against the zerg with pure force-of-arms.True, but occasionally (for instance, on Tarsonis), the Protoss go into melee with the Zerg, so it seems to me at least the Protoss leaders believe they stand a change against the Zerg with brute force as well.


The Zerg Swarm refers to the entire race, not the different parts. Those are Broods. The Zerg Swarm, as a whole, has at least trillions of organisms, yes. Er, yeah, of course. Corrected that.
At any rate, the brood which came to Tarsonis alone was this numerous, and we don't even know whether this was the entire brood.

[LordVader]

I'd put a brood at millions, or billions in extreme cases. Trillions is too large for a single brood.

[Solo]

IIRC, the Overmind wanted to absorb Humanity into the Brood before attacking the Protoss because the Overmind desired humanity's emerging psionic potential in order to stand a batter chance against the Protoss.

Says something, doesn't it?

[Ditto]

Also, the Protoss only need to send battalions of zealots on the surface of the planet; the Federation has two choices a)try to attack the Protoss homeworld(s) b) bombard their own planets into non-existence.

Why is this?


The Protoss are psionic!

Oh, well, if they're *psionic*...
And doesn't psionics sound a bit more like magic than technology does?


Their society is BASED on warfare. I think that the Protoss would come up with better strategies and counter-strategies than the Federation.
As has been stated, the Klingons, Cardassians, Jem'Hadar, and Borg all have societies built on conquest and war. You'd think they would be automatically better at it. They weren't. Further, you say the Federation can't develop to adapt rapidly enough - it did. (Extreme adaptability of humans among other races has always been an odd but recurring theme throughout sci-fi and fantasy - compare the bizarre primacy of humans in D&D.) There *is* a history of warfare in Star Trek, and just because this or that doesn't seem to fit with the preconceptions out there doesn't mean the canon can be ignored.

The Borg don't send tons of ships after the Federation because they can't be bothered to. They want to assimilate information and technology to become more perfect, not explicitly for domination and body count. There's plenty stuff to interest them on their side of the galaxy. (The fact that Voyager keeps throwing dirt in their eyes is another matter entirely...) And again, speaking of ignoring canon - Voyager is one tough freaking ship. Implausible? Maybe. But it's what the Protoss are going up against.

What's with glassing planets? Why does everyone use that phrase so much? It's overstating the importance of one last ditch tactic, which the Federation can replicate if they really wanted to. Also, why can the Protoss appear simultaneously with all of their troops everywhere in the galaxy and with their ships over every planet in the Federation? How many of them *are* there?

The fact that the Protoss ships move faster because of significantly shorter times to cross the galaxy is not conclusive. First off, they travel in entirely different ways. Secondly, there is no comparison for the relative size of of the two galaxies. The Star Wars galaxy is *much* smaller than the Milky way; it can be crossed in a matter of weeks, and we have a fair idea of how relatively crowded and populous the systems are.

And yes, time travel. If the Protoss can use timestopping technology, then so can the Federation.

Wesley Crusher is not just an incredible advisor, he's approaching omnipotence.

The Federation *does* like to do things diplomatically. That doesn't mean they don't see the value of peaceful missions of exploration in heavily armed starships.

[Solo]

The Star Wars galaxy is *much* smaller than the Milky way;
Star Wars? You mean either Star Trek or Starcraft, right?

[Afraidofsharpie]

Everyone is wrong, either the Borg assimilate the Zerg or the Zerg assimilate the Borg and then both the Feds and the Toss are screwed.

For the Overmind!

To keep more or less on topic, of the two I'd have to say that the Toss would win just for the fact that they have superior numbers.

[BRC]

Lets set up some ground rules
rule 1) no plot sheilds, picard couldn't waltz in there with a rusty spoon and kill every protoss on the planet because he is protected by the power of plot! heck, I wouldn't bet in Picard with rusty spoons favor against a single probe.
rule 2) In the beggining the scenario was laid out, one planet is being contested, so the whole "warp around and glass everything" is not an option here.
rule 3) If the federation can have wesley use technomcguyver skills to overcome any situation, then the protoss get two words on their side: POWER OVERWHELMING!
rule 4) There is such a thing as non-linear technological advancement. Just because the federation has X dosn't mean that they also have Y. Just because they have FTL travel dosn't mean that they have, say, superpowerful megaalloy armor that can withstand any blast.
rule 5) Lets nix time-travel, its used only on a plot basis and it kind of makes the discussion pointless. Protoss supporter:[Well thought out post involving references to both SC and ST showing that the protoss would have a considerable advantage]. Fed supporter: Ah, but the federation has TIME TRAVEL

[Emperor Tippy]

Why is this?
Because the Protoss have no supply lines, everything is warped in from their homeworld fully constructed. And can be warped out just as fast.


Oh, well, if they're *psionic*...
And doesn't psionics sound a bit more like magic than technology does?
It means that they can use mindcontrol and read peoples thoughts and the like.


As has been stated, the Klingons, Cardassians, Jem'Hadar, and Borg all have societies built on conquest and war. You'd think they would be automatically better at it. They weren't. Further, you say the Federation can't develop to adapt rapidly enough - it did. (Extreme adaptability of humans among other races has always been an odd but recurring theme throughout sci-fi and fantasy - compare the bizarre primacy of humans in D&D.) There *is* a history of warfare in Star Trek, and just because this or that doesn't seem to fit with the preconceptions out there doesn't mean the canon can be ignored.
Are any of those enemies far ahead of the Federation in tech? Did any of them ever manage to rule over half the galaxy at a time? Do any of them have moons filled with combat robots?


The Borg don't send tons of ships after the Federation because they can't be bothered to. They want to assimilate information and technology to become more perfect, not explicitly for domination and body count. There's plenty stuff to interest them on their side of the galaxy. (The fact that Voyager keeps throwing dirt in their eyes is another matter entirely...) And again, speaking of ignoring canon - Voyager is one tough freaking ship. Implausible? Maybe. But it's what the Protoss are going up against.

So the Borg are stupid? The Protoss aren't. And it doesn't matter how tough any of the Federation vessels are. Everyone could be a death star and it wouldn't matter. They are far to slow.


What's with glassing planets? Why does everyone use that phrase so much? It's overstating the importance of one last ditch tactic, which the Federation can replicate if they really wanted to. Also, why can the Protoss appear simultaneously with all of their troops everywhere in the galaxy and with their ships over every planet in the Federation? How many of them *are* there?
The Protoss can move their forces nigh instantaneously from all over the galaxy to anywhere else in the galaxy. A single fleet of 20 ships could take the federation for solely that reason. And the Protoss fleet numbers in the 10's of thousands. They rule half the galaxy.

And glassing a planet is not a last ditch tactic for the Protoss. If a planet doesn't have something that they want/need and is important to an enemy it gets glassed. As for the Federation being able to glass a planet, sure they can. Now how do they find the Protoss homeworld or get to it in anything approaching a reasonable amount of time? Considering it takes 70 years for them to cross 1 quadrant of the galaxy.


The fact that the Protoss ships move faster because of significantly shorter times to cross the galaxy is not conclusive. First off, they travel in entirely different ways. Secondly, there is no comparison for the relative size of of the two galaxies. The Star Wars galaxy is *much* smaller than the Milky way; it can be crossed in a matter of weeks, and we have a fair idea of how relatively crowded and populous the systems are.
We are talking about the Milkway galaxy in reference to Starcraft. And it doesn't matter the distance. The Protoss travel nigh instantaneously no matter the distance. They make and control wormholes.


And yes, time travel. If the Protoss can use timestopping technology, then so can the Federation.
The Protoss are far better at it than the Federation ever has been.

[Emperor Tippy]

Lets set up some ground rules
rule 1) no plot sheilds, picard couldn't waltz in there with a rusty spoon and kill every protoss on the planet because he is protected by the power of plot! heck, I wouldn't bet in Picard with rusty spoons favor against a single probe.
rule 2) In the beggining the scenario was laid out, one planet is being contested, so the whole "warp around and glass everything" is not an option here.
rule 3) If the federation can have wesley use technomcguyver skills to overcome any situation, then the protoss get two words on their side: POWER OVERWHELMING!
rule 4) There is such a thing as non-linear technological advancement. Just because the federation has X dosn't mean that they also have Y. Just because they have FTL travel dosn't mean that they have, say, superpowerful megaalloy armor that can withstand any blast.
rule 5) Lets nix time-travel, its used only on a plot basis and it kind of makes the discussion pointless. Protoss supporter:[Well thought out post involving references to both SC and ST showing that the protoss would have a considerable advantage]. Fed supporter: Ah, but the federation has TIME TRAVEL

Those rules are fine with me. As I said earlier, the best the Federation can hope for in the OP scenario is a draw by glassing the world. The Protoss own on the ground and with no supply lines to speak of the Federation has no way to get them out. Orbital bombardment won't work because the ground forces can retreat to Auir through warpgates and just come back in once its over.

[Ditto]

No, I meant Star Wars galaxy. I was using it as a point of reference - people say, "Star Wars ships are so fast, they can go across the galaxy in weeks!" - but when you look at other factors, it just ends up with a picture of a much smaller galaxy. Interesting factoid, is all. (That leads into the discussion of "You can't make the Kessel Run in 12 parsecs, parsec is a unit of distance!" discussion... people don't learn how SW FTL travel works...) Is Starcraft in the Milky Way? I'm not too familiar, mostly going off of what people say here on points of contention.

The Borg aren't stupid, they just aren't motivated. They may well be a complete WTFPWN for the Federation, but it hasn't come to that yet.

I'm not sure I understand the relevance of their psionic abilities, enlighten me... Are all Protoss psychic infiltrators? Do they lobotomize their enemies at range instead of using these (apparently) hugetastic armies? And if we want to play that card, you have Ullians and Betazoids and Thranians and and and on the Federation side to play that game.

Another question... Will destroying the Protoss homeworld end the war, as people keep saying? Is that all the Feds have to do? Finding it is a simple matter of intelligence, something the Federation is *very* good at. Once you find it, they can use one of those plug-n-play transwarp coils or slipstream drive that SFI surely keeps tucked away for emergencies and zip over and, to coin a phrase, 'glass the planet.'

[Emperor Tippy]

No, I meant Star Wars galaxy. I was using it as a point of reference - people say, "Star Wars ships are so fast, they can go across the galaxy in weeks!" - but when you look at other factors, it just ends up with a picture of a much smaller galaxy. Interesting factoid, is all. (That leads into the discussion of "You can't make the Kessel Run in 12 parsecs, parsec is a unit of distance!" discussion... people don't learn how SW FTL travel works...) Is Starcraft in the Milky Way? I'm not too familiar, mostly going off of what people say here on points of contention.
Yes, Starcraft takes place in the Milkyway.


I'm not sure I understand the relevance of their psionic abilities, enlighten me... Are all Protoss psychic infiltrators? Do they lobotomize their enemies at range instead of using these (apparently) hugetastic armies? And if we want to play that card, you have Ullians and Betazoids and Thranians and and and on the Federation side to play that game.
The weakest solider in the Protoss army is the equivalent of a regular jedi. They have millions, if not billions, of these soldiers.


Another question... Will destroying the Protoss homeworld end the war, as people keep saying? Is that all the Feds have to do? Finding it is a simple matter of intelligence, something the Federation is *very* good at. Once you find it, they can use one of those plug-n-play transwarp coils or slipstream drive that SFI surely keeps tucked away for emergencies and zip over and, to coin a phrase, 'glass the planet.'
I don't see how the Federation could find the Protoss homeworld. And even if they could, odds are it would take them 70+ years to get there. They would them have to deal with the entire protoss fleet, which numbers in the many thousands at least. And the protoss can just warp everything off their homeworld and to a new world as a last resort.

[Leon]

Everyone is wrong, either the Borg assimilate the Zerg or the Zerg assimilate the Borg and then both the Feds and the Toss are screwed.

For the Overmind!


Infected Borg FTW

[BRC]

I don't see how the Federation could find the Protoss homeworld. And even if they could, odds are it would take them 70+ years to get there. They would them have to deal with the entire protoss fleet, which numbers in the many thousands at least. And the protoss can just warp everything off their homeworld and to a new world as a last resort.

I don't know if the federation would be unable to find Auir, the overmind only figured out where it was after Zeratuls mind accidently touched its when Zeratul killed one of the cerebrates. But in Brood War the UED are able to find it without too much trouble, and then gets there without too much trouble.

and the protoss can't warp everything off Aiur, first of all, Aiur is their homeworld and they are very devoted to it, and if they could just warp their entire civilisation off Aiur en-masse why didn't they do that when the zerg showed up and swarmed Aiur?

[Solo]

and the protoss can't warp everything off Aiur, first of all, Aiur is their homeworld and they are very devoted to it, and if they could just warp their entire civilisation off Aiur en-masse why didn't they do that when the zerg showed up and swarmed Aiur?
They warped off all survivors at the beginning of Brood War.

[Elidyr]

If the Starcraft terrans can stand up to the Protoss, I'm sure the Federation with far superior technology can win against the Protoss.

[Hannes]

If the Starcraft terrans can stand up to the Protoss, I'm sure the Federation with far superior technology can win against the Protoss.

Elidyr, read a few pages back. We explained why Terrans can stand up to the Protoss.

[Solo]

If the Starcraft terrans can stand up to the Protoss, I'm sure the Federation with far superior technology can win against the Protoss.

You must of missed the part where it was explained that the Protoss' main goal in Starcraft is the destruction of the Zerg, not fighting the Terrans. Thus, they never really tried... though if you want to know how Protoss can fare against Terrans, consider that they sterilized Chau Sara and Braxis in a short period of time.

[sikyon]

1) You guys give 'toss too much credit. I have never seen any evidence of Protoss being able to travel the galaxy instantaneously, if they were not already there. If you want to cite something, cite it. Zealots warping in? Warp Gate already there. Warp gate got warped in? Probe already there. Probe got recalled in from an Arbiter? The arbiter -flew- there. Or got warped in, but that's a paradox. If you might recall, the zerg took 60 years to get to terran space. If the zerg were tremendously slower than the Protoss, then the Protoss could just use planet-busting capabilities in hit/run strikes.


2) You guys seriously underestimate the Federation starships. Phasers actually output HUGE amounts of energy, the technical manual is crap. Things shown on screen have much more different results, www.st-v-sw.net

Hand phasers blow apart buildings. Starships look weak because of the massive energy output of the weapons attacking them. 2 photon torpedoes tear apart an unsheilded trek ship, but photon torpedoes are something like 87 megaton warheads. In comparison the largest nuclear weapon ever designed was a 100 megaton by the russians. The megaton range is huge for nukes.

Star trek can also cloak it's individual ships (the federation does have cloak technology, even phase-shift cloack technology (episode... pegasus of TNG I believe) but doesn't use it because of the romulan treaty. With the romulan empire in shambles and having attacked the fedaration, the treaty which forbids the use of cloak tech is now void).

Star Trek ground troops are pretty weak, but it doesn't matter if you have orbital support. Oh, and photon grenades from TOS too. Those things were ridiculous (see site I provided above).

Star Trek also has huge confirmed kill ranges, even though most combat takes place up close and personal between ships.

3) I don't want to point this one out, but a carrier, the "warship of the protoss" get's owned by a nuke. A small, kilo-ton range terran tactical nuclear weapon that doesn't even inflict a direct hit (it impacts the ground somewhere beneath the carrier). If the weapon was larger, the entire map would be blown apart. Based on the explosion radius, it's a pretty weak weapon. No, ships are pretty friggin weak. Why? Don't ask me. But those nukes are nowhere in the 10+ megaton range, and nowhere close to photon torpedoes.

[Hannes]

1) You guys give 'toss too much credit. I have never seen any evidence of Protoss being able to travel the galaxy instantaneously, if they were not already there. If you want to cite something, cite it. Zealots warping in? Warp Gate already there. Warp gate got warped in? Probe already there. Probe got recalled in from an Arbiter? The arbiter -flew- there. Or got warped in, but that's a paradox. If you might recall, the zerg took 60 years to get to terran space. If the zerg were tremendously slower than the Protoss, then the Protoss could just use planet-busting capabilities in hit/run strikes.
But honey, if they have contact, it's kind of easy for the Protoss to get ONE PROBE there. The Federation would let it pass. Also, Protoss have learned how to create wormholes between existing units, that means they must be able to use already existing wormholes.




2) You guys seriously underestimate the Federation starships. Phasers actually output HUGE amounts of energy, the technical manual is crap. Things shown on screen have much more different results, www.st-v-sw.net

Hand phasers blow apart buildings. Starships look weak because of the massive energy output of the weapons attacking them. 2 photon torpedoes tear apart an unsheilded trek ship, but photon torpedoes are something like 87 megaton warheads. In comparison the largest nuclear weapon ever designed was a 100 megaton by the russians. The megaton range is huge for nukes.

Star trek can also cloak it's individual ships (the federation does have cloak technology, even phase-shift cloack technology (episode... pegasus of TNG I believe) but doesn't use it because of the romulan treaty. With the romulan empire in shambles and having attacked the fedaration, the treaty which forbids the use of cloak tech is now void).

Star Trek ground troops are pretty weak, but it doesn't matter if you have orbital support. Oh, and photon grenades from TOS too. Those things were ridiculous (see site I provided above).

Star Trek also has huge confirmed kill ranges, even though most combat takes place up close and personal between ships.

Two words: Stasis Field.


3) I don't want to point this one out, but a carrier, the "warship of the protoss" get's owned by a nuke. A small, kilo-ton range terran tactical nuclear weapon that doesn't even inflict a direct hit (it impacts the ground somewhere beneath the carrier). If the weapon was larger, the entire map would be blown apart. Based on the explosion radius, it's a pretty weak weapon. No, ships are pretty friggin weak. Why? Don't ask me. But those nukes are nowhere in the 10+ megaton range, and nowhere close to photon torpedoes.
The reason why it gets its butt handed over to him by the nuke? GAME BALANCE. Starcraft was designed as a game which doesn't have WTFPWN weapons. Sure, the Carrier's tough, but a few Goliaths and you're done for. However, those Goliaths are countered by two-four zealots. Those zealots are countered by firebats. Those firebats are countered by dragoons. Which are countered by siege tanks. Which are countered by zealots, again. In SC, there is no WTFPWN.

[Emperor Tippy]

1) You guys give 'toss too much credit. I have never seen any evidence of Protoss being able to travel the galaxy instantaneously, if they were not already there. If you want to cite something, cite it. Zealots warping in? Warp Gate already there. Warp gate got warped in? Probe already there. Probe got recalled in from an Arbiter? The arbiter -flew- there. Or got warped in, but that's a paradox. If you might recall, the zerg took 60 years to get to terran space. If the zerg were tremendously slower than the Protoss, then the Protoss could just use planet-busting capabilities in hit/run strikes.
When the Protoss start glassing Terran worlds. They appear in orbit, glass the planet, and leave. With no protoss on the ground to construct anything. I haven't read the books but their may be other examples in those.


2) You guys seriously underestimate the Federation starships. Phasers actually output HUGE amounts of energy, the technical manual is crap. Things shown on screen have much more different results, www.st-v-sw.net
Link to where it states phaser yields specifically. I didn't see it on that site. As for huge amounts of energy, the protoss can glass a planet in a matter of hours with less than a dozen ships.


Hand phasers blow apart buildings. Starships look weak because of the massive energy output of the weapons attacking them. 2 photon torpedoes tear apart an unsheilded trek ship, but photon torpedoes are something like 87 megaton warheads. In comparison the largest nuclear weapon ever designed was a 100 megaton by the russians. The megaton range is huge for nukes.
Good for them. The Protoss can glass planets easily. That is so far beyond the megaton range that it isn't even funny. Slagging the entire surface of a planet, boiling off all its water, and burning off its atmosphere. Do you have any idea how much energy it would take to boil off the oceans of earth?


Star trek can also cloak it's individual ships (the federation does have cloak technology, even phase-shift cloack technology (episode... pegasus of TNG I believe) but doesn't use it because of the romulan treaty. With the romulan empire in shambles and having attacked the fedaration, the treaty which forbids the use of cloak tech is now void).
Good for them. It doesn't matter.


Star Trek ground troops are pretty weak, but it doesn't matter if you have orbital support. Oh, and photon grenades from TOS too. Those things were ridiculous (see site I provided above).
It does when your orbital support can't actually hit any of the enemy forces and teh enemy has unlimited reinforcements.


Star Trek also has huge confirmed kill ranges, even though most combat takes place up close and personal between ships.
Define huge.


3) I don't want to point this one out, but a carrier, the "warship of the protoss" get's owned by a nuke. A small, kilo-ton range terran tactical nuclear weapon that doesn't even inflict a direct hit (it impacts the ground somewhere beneath the carrier). If the weapon was larger, the entire map would be blown apart. Based on the explosion radius, it's a pretty weak weapon. No, ships are pretty friggin weak. Why? Don't ask me. But those nukes are nowhere in the 10+ megaton range, and nowhere close to photon torpedoes.

Game balance issues. We aren't paying attention to those. Otherwise marines run as fast as carriers fly.

[Hannes]

Game balance issues. We aren't paying attention to those. Otherwise marines run as fast as carriers fly.

At the cost of 100 minerals and 100 gas(if I remember correctly) and 10 hp, faster than the carrier.

[LordVader]

Phaser rifles can blow apart buildings. Redshirt #101000101110's weapon can't. And if you put it too high, it runs out of energy real fast.

[Ditto]

SC has no WTFPWN weapons...

Wait, you're actually defending SC with that argument? After smugly suggesting "Stasis field :smallamused: " answers all of the points under item 2?

Off the top of my head, Transporter range (and that's *safe* transporter range, when they actually care about what happens to the transportee) is 40,000 km. If you can scramble atoms from 40,000 km, away, I'm satisfied. Transporters can absolutely be used as an offensive weapon.

No one can find Aiur? Do the Protoss not have computers that can be sliced, or ever get captured alive, or walk within range of a Ullian ubertelepath who can dig it out of their brain in ten seconds flat? (The range on telepathy in ST is incredible, too. You can read thoughts from the planet below, while in orbit, so long as you have some sort of visual bead on the target.)

[LordVader]

Of course, that's assuming said telepath makes it past the High Templar and Dark Archons first.:smalltongue:

[Hannes]

Wait, you're actually defending SC with that argument? After smugly suggesting "Stasis field :smallamused: " answers all of the points under item 2?

Yes, I actually am. Since Stasis Field is a DISABLING device; it locks the unit in an IMPENETRABLE field. Get my point? It turns the unit invincible, but unable to do anything.

[Elidyr]

You must of missed the part where it was explained that the Protoss' main goal in Starcraft is the destruction of the Zerg, not fighting the Terrans. Thus, they never really tried... though if you want to know how Protoss can fare against Terrans, consider that they sterilized Chau Sara and Braxis in a short period of time.

There was a terran mission in SC1 where the humans fought off the protoss, on more then one occasion if I remember correctly (been like 10 years since I played it).

And really, while the Protoss can ''glass'' a planet (who cant?), so what_ The Federation can blow up a sun with a single shuttle (see some random DS9 episode where they do that). Or they can just build one of those terran nukes from SC1 and teleport them next to a Protoss carrier. Or they can just invert the bi-polar matrix of the plasma coil relinear whatchamathingie [insert more techno babble] and blow up half the galaxy.

[Logic]

There was a terran mission in SC1 where the humans fought off the protoss, on more then one occasion if I remember correctly (been like 10 years since I played it).

And really, while the Protoss can ''glass'' a planet (who cant?), so what_ The Federation can blow up a sun with a single shuttle (see some random DS9 episode where they do that). Or they can just build one of those terran nukes from SC1 and teleport them next to a Protoss carrier. Or they can just invert the bi-polar matrix of the plasma coil relinear whatchamathingie [insert more techno babble] and blow up half the galaxy.

They don't even need a shuttle. See Star Trek: Generations.

[Hannes]

However, this isn't about what they can do or what they can't, this is about who would win in combat.

[Executor]

Hey, Sikyon, may I remind you that ST vs SW.com is extremely biased in Trek favour? That guy uses fairly questionable math to make it so that every tactical, strategical, speed and power advantage is in Trek favour. And then makes the military of Wars look inept and unprofessional compared to Starfleet. Just as the owner of Stardestroyer.net is biased in Wars favour, so to is the guy you cited.

First of all, the Protoss exhibit excellent understanding of Space and Time. They can open their own wormholes to almost any location. They appeared in high orbit above Chau Sara, incinerated the planet, and then warped out. They have FTL drive of some kind, probably wormhole related, for their ships. That gives them the crucial speed advantage, especially since they can warp in buildings and troops almost instantaneously with just a few probes.

Yeah Federation can cloak individual ships. So what? With a few Arbiters, the Protoss can cloak entire fleets. Wouldn't that be a surprise for the Feds? A couple Galaxy and Akira-class ships out on patrol, see a few Arbiters flying along.

Federation Commander: Oh look, some Protoss frigates. Target photon torpedoes and phasers
BOOM! BOOM! BOOM!
Interceptors tear the Fed ships apart as huge Carriers uncloak and open fire.

Arbiters are also a useful platform from which Judicators can use their EXTENSIVE mental abilities.

[Seraph]

I don't even know why you people are arguing anything about ground forces. shipboard phasers are canonically able to fire wide-angle stun blasts from orbit.

this is what happens if the protoss try a land war:

Zealot: My life for Ai-

*entire protoss force is stunned. Federation away teams beam down and vaporize stunned protoss with hand weapons, thereby entirely sidestepping the possibility of destroying the planet*

and a agin, Protoss can't take even a single nuke. I don't care how much you whine about the Protoss being downpowered for the game. if anything, they were Godmodded for the novels because of protoss fanwankery. it still doesn't explain away the fact that they were killed BY NUKES.

[Hannes]

Wow, you're fun, aren't ya? However, what you're trying to imply is that Star Trek is godmodded.

[Winterwind]

I'd put a brood at millions, or billions in extreme cases. Trillions is too large for a single brood.Yes, you're right. I just checked what it says in that sequence where the Zerg attack Tarsonis again, and it's "merely" billions. For some reason, I remembered a much bigger number. My mistake.

[Seraph]

Wow, you're fun, aren't ya? However, what you're trying to imply is that Star Trek is godmodded.


I have said nothing that was not confirmed in an Episode or movie. half the people who post in this thread defending the protoss has whined about game balance not showing the protoss at their "true strength" (that is, as ridiculously high as you want it to be), while completely ignoring the visible canon. like, you know, entire protoss outposts being owned to **** by a single missile with less output than a photon torpedo, of which your regular trek vessel holds dozens.

[Executor]

Seraph: We're ignoring gameplay mechanics. Which means that it'll probably take more than a single nuclear blast to take out Carriers. Marines also can't run faster than Wraiths, etc, etc. We're discussing the 'canon' of Starcraft. That being: Things as seen in cutscenes and in books. Example: Carriers are much bigger, carry hundreds (possibly thousands) of interceptors and are mounted with direct energy weapons (probably something similar to their ground-based Photon Cannon). So, yeah, the Protoss can match up with the Federation.

Blizzard had to downplay the Protoss in-game. Otherwise, every game against 'Toss would be in their favour. Because if they're losing, they can just sterilize the planet from high orbit. And I mean sterilize it. They can melt the planet's surface, evaporate the oceans and burn the atmosphere with their bombardment. There was NO LIFE on Chau Sara, Mar Sara and Braxis after the Protoss were through with them. No starship weapon in Trek exhibits that kind of power.

By the way, we also really don't know the composition of a Terran Nuke. They can them Nukes, but they seem to be much more powerful than a modern nuclear warhead. Similar to how so many weapons in sci-fi are called cannons, and yet obviously don't shoot spherical, iron projectiles with black powder. At the stage in the future (23rd-24th century I think) that Starcraft is at, the Terran Nuke is probably a much more advanced nuclear weapon, with a far greater yield, but still called a nuke due to habit I guess.

[Emperor Tippy]

I don't even know why you people are arguing anything about ground forces. shipboard phasers are canonically able to fire wide-angle stun blasts from orbit.

this is what happens if the protoss try a land war:

Zealot: My life for Ai-

*entire protoss force is stunned. Federation away teams beam down and vaporize stunned protoss with hand weapons, thereby entirely sidestepping the possibility of destroying the planet*

and a agin, Protoss can't take even a single nuke. I don't care how much you whine about the Protoss being downpowered for the game. if anything, they were Godmodded for the novels because of protoss fanwankery. it still doesn't explain away the fact that they were killed BY NUKES.

...
Every protoss unit is shielded. Why exactly do you think a phaser set to stun would do anything?

[Executor]

There's that too. Only Star Trek ships are shielded. While everything in the Protoss military carries an energy shield. From the lowliest Probe to the mightiest Carrier, all are protected.

[Ditto]

Does it matter if someone implies Star Trek is godmodded and SC is downplayed? It is what it is. It really doesn't matter *why* the levels got the way they are.


First of all, the Protoss exhibit excellent understanding of Space and Time. They can open their own wormholes to almost any location.
Um... "First of all, the Federation exhibit an excellent understanding of Space and Time. They can go backward and forward to it on a weekly basis." Both universes have staggeringly advanced technology. 'An excellent understanding of X' is a highly subjective and 'woop-de-doo' statement.


Yeah Federation can cloak individual ships. So what? With a few Arbiters, the Protoss can cloak entire fleets. Wouldn't that be a surprise for the Feds?
The Federation can cloak ALL of its individual ships. Individually. Meaning that if someone shoots your cloak-casting arbiter, a whole task force is revealed but destroying one cloaked ship doesn't bother the rest of the Fed fleet.

STASIS FIELD!!1!
Hm, large spatial field that rended ships, energy, and time itself inert... ST did that. (Timescape, TNG.)
This discussion is won by comparing things that are unique to the other side, such as the warp-jumping of the Protoss and the transporters of the Feds. Might I suggest we avoid discussion of the stasis field, cloaks, and destroying planets? These have been beaten to death, demonstrating strong capabilities from both sides.

[Emperor Tippy]

Um... "First of all, the Federation exhibit an excellent understanding of Space and Time. They can go backward and forward to it on a weekly basis." Both universes have staggeringly advanced technology. 'An excellent understanding of X' is a highly subjective and 'woop-de-doo' statement.
The Federations understanding of space and time is far below that of the Protoss.


The Federation can cloak ALL of its individual ships. Individually. Meaning that if someone shoots your cloak-casting arbiter, a whole task force is revealed but destroying one cloaked ship doesn't bother the rest of the Fed fleet.
You seem to think that the Federation will get a chance to shoot at the Protoss forces.


Hm, large spatial field that rended ships, energy, and time itself inert... ST did that. (Timescape, TNG.)
This discussion is won by comparing things that are unique to the other side, such as the warp-jumping of the Protoss and the transporters of the Feds. Might I suggest we avoid discussion of the stasis field, cloaks, and destroying planets? These have been beaten to death, demonstrating strong capabilities from both sides.
The Protoss have transporter tech far superior to that of the Federation, what do you think warping is?

Stasis Fields mean that the Protoss don't have to fight the Federation ships while they glass the planet. Cloaking is relatively unimportant. As for glassing planets, it is what the Protoss do with worlds that they don't really need and have enemies on them. It isn't a last resort kind of thing. It's standard operating procedure for dealing with enemy held worlds that don't have assets that need to be captured..

[Hannes]

Well, if we do THAT the argument was won some time ago.

[Executor]

I have to point out, MOST incidents of Federation time travel have been ACCIDENTAL! Usually involving messing around with blackholes, 'quantum singularities' or slingshotting around the sun. They do not "Go backwards and forwards on a weekly basis" Oh sure the WRITERS do because they've become hacks who can't think of anything new or original, but canonically, Time Travel isn't exactly a common or controlled thing in the Federation. Or else, why would they even allow the Dominion War or other such disasters to happen if they can go forward and backward at will?

I'm beginning to see a pattern in this thread. It goes something like this.

Protoss supporter: [Generally well thought-out post outlining the advantages the Protoss have over the Federation]

Federation support: Yeah, well TIME TRAVEL! LOL! WTFPWNED!

[Hannes]

So. Unless (or until) you can get me a good fact, Protoss wins. That's it.

[sikyon]

There's a few too many replies for me to respond to everything, so I'll just cover a few points as I go:

For the site I provided, everything seems to be spelt out correctly to me. If you see some "questionable math" then question it. Don't just say "oh no those numbers look too big". Here's the direct link to phasers: http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWground.html
Granted, it's hard to find. The part on phasers is part way down the page.

Ok guys, you know what? Wormholes? How the heck do you think wormholes even work?

I was trying to make one point:

The protoss show mastery of wormholes when there's two physical, prebuilt objects at each point already present. Ie. it links stargate to stargate.

I see NO evidence of them using wormholes to travel FTL. For all intents and purposes, they "warp in". Please cite something that shows how fast that actually travels. "Oh no because they appear instantly means they travel instantly and star trek ships slow down so they must be slow" means nothing. Provide a reference to speed, please. As far as I know, travel time is unknown. Provide a source that demonstrates that protoss ships warp from one end of the galaxy to the other in the blink of an eye. Please.

Furthermore, wormholes don't really work the way they are depicted in science fiction, but I won't get into that. (They still obey cause-effect, wormholes move you forward in both space and in time).

Game balance? So what, we're only using the stuff printed, and cutscences? Personally, I take my top level cannon much more seriously. Top level meaning what was originally produced, not novels written afterward. I don't want to drag game balance into this, it's true, but I don't want it just thrown out the window. Fine. Marines run faster than carriers? Sure. The carriers arn't built to maneuver in the atmosphere, and they're so friggin slow anyways that they move at a crawl in the air unless they want the ship/sheilds. to burn up in the atmosphere. How about that?

Stasis fields seem like a "win button". You know what? The federation just stays in warp and fires torpedoes at slower than light warships all the time. Good luck trying to stasis something in another dimension, moving faster than light.

[Hannes]

If it's in another dimension, which you are NOT in, it doesn't hit you o.o;;
EDIT: Also, point with warp holes is that they can create them anywhere they need to, they don't need someone already there to do it.

[sikyon]

If it's in another dimension, which you are NOT in, it doesn't hit you o.o;;
EDIT: Also, point with warp holes is that they can create them anywhere they need to, they don't need someone already there to do it.

Well, star trek ships have been reported to be able to shoot sublight targets at faster than light speeds http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWwarpturn.html
Provides episode reference examples. As a result, it would be a pretty easy way to avoid stasis field.

About warp holes:

What's a warp hole? Define please.
Edit: I know what a wormhole is, and I know what warping is (I assume it's what recall is) but I don't know what a warp hole is.

[Hannes]

Warp hole, wormhole, same difference. It's 2:43 AM, and every person might fall to verbal faults at such a time.

[Emperor Tippy]

There's a few too many replies for me to respond to everything, so I'll just cover a few points as I go:

For the site I provided, everything seems to be spelt out correctly to me. If you see some "questionable math" then question it. Don't just say "oh no those numbers look too big". Here's the direct link to phasers: http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWground.html
Granted, it's hard to find. The part on phasers is part way down the page.
I meant ship based phasers.


Ok guys, you know what? Wormholes? How the heck do you think wormholes even work?

I was trying to make one point:

The protoss show mastery of wormholes when there's two physical, prebuilt objects at each point already present. Ie. it links stargate to stargate.

I see NO evidence of them using wormholes to travel FTL. For all intents and purposes, they "warp in". Please cite something that shows how fast that actually travels. "Oh no because they appear instantly means they travel instantly and star trek ships slow down so they must be slow" means nothing. Provide a reference to speed, please. As far as I know, travel time is unknown. Provide a source that demonstrates that protoss ships warp from one end of the galaxy to the other in the blink of an eye. Please.

The Stalker. It can warp around the map, short range but it is a ground unit smaller than a humvee. There is instantaneous warping from a vehicle to a location without a prebuilt structure. Starshisp have the same thing, just a few orders of magnitude more powerful.


Furthermore, wormholes don't really work the way they are depicted in science fiction, but I won't get into that. (They still obey cause-effect, wormholes move you forward in both space and in time).
Wormholes are entirely theoretical and we have no idea how they would actually function if they actually exist.


Game balance? So what, we're only using the stuff printed, and cutscences? Personally, I take my top level cannon much more seriously. Top level meaning what was originally produced, not novels written afterward. I don't want to drag game balance into this, it's true, but I don't want it just thrown out the window. Fine. Marines run faster than carriers? Sure. The carriers arn't built to maneuver in the atmosphere, and they're so friggin slow anyways that they move at a crawl in the air unless they want the ship/sheilds. to burn up in the atmosphere. How about that?
Um, no. The novels are stated as top level cannon by Blizzard. The cutscenes are like wise top level cannon. The actually stats of the units are secondary because of game balance issues.


Stasis fields seem like a "win button". You know what? The federation just stays in warp and fires torpedoes at slower than light warships all the time. Good luck trying to stasis something in another dimension, moving faster than light.

Good luck trying to target a ship with that kind of speed difference. You also realize that the photon torpedo can be hit with a stasis field, or its target can be, making it immune to the torpedo.

You still don't get it, do you. The Federation is the reactive force. They can never take the offensive. The Protoss decided where every fight will take place, how long it will last, and what the numbers of each force will be.

[sikyon]

Warp hole, wormhole, same difference. It's 2:43 AM, and every person might fall to verbal faults at such a time.

Ah, you must live in... Australia? Cool! Anyhow, I've only seen evidence ingame for the ships to warp in. And that's cool, but I'm still hoping to debunk the "instant travel" theory going on here.

[Emperor Tippy]

Ah, you must live in... Australia? Cool! Anyhow, I've only seen evidence ingame for the ships to warp in. And that's cool, but I'm still hoping to debunk the "instant travel" theory going on here.

You failed then.

[sikyon]

I meant ship based phasers.
The Stalker. It can warp around the map, short range but it is a ground unit smaller than a humvee. There is instantaneous warping from a vehicle to a location without a prebuilt structure. Starshisp have the same thing, just a few orders of magnitude more powerful.[QUOTE]

Well A) stalker is not finalized and B) yes, this is a nice instance of warping. But you still don't have a travel time.

Phasers... I can't find anything specific on ship power, but there is a page on how the tech manual is wrong and this: http://www.st-v-sw.net/olde/STSWphas.html

[QUOTE]
Wormholes are entirely theoretical and we have no idea how they would actually function if they actually exist.


No, we have an idea that they would not violate relativity. Theoretically, wormholes exist at quantum levels, allowing for electron type tunneling. If we had matter with a negative gravitational mass we could line the opening of these quantum wormholes and expand them to useful sizes. There's alot of theory on how they will work. Please don't say things like we would have no idea how wormholes would function if they existed without doing your homework.



Um, no. The novels are stated as top level cannon by Blizzard. The cutscenes are like wise top level cannon. The actually stats of the units are secondary because of game balance issues.


Can I get a reference for this?



Good luck trying to target a ship with that kind of speed difference. You also realize that the photon torpedo can be hit with a stasis field, or its target can be, making it immune to the torpedo.


And how fast exactly do stasis fields fire? And yes, star trek can hit ships with that kind of speed difference. Extremely good targeting. Posted a link a few posts back for warp strafing and examples of it in star wars. EDIT: Star trek Furthermore, quantum torpedoes have some support (though I can't remember where it is) that they are guided, methinks.



You still don't get it, do you. The Federation is the reactive force. They can never take the offensive. The Protoss decided where every fight will take place, how long it will last, and what the numbers of each force will be.

Why? Because they move faster? Please provide reference to protoss FTL speeds. If you claim it as "instantaneous" please provide source.

[Emperor Tippy]

Well A) stalker is not finalized and B) yes, this is a nice instance of warping. But you still don't have a travel time.
Yes I do, instantaneous.


Phasers... I can't find anything specific on ship power, but there is a page on how the tech manual is wrong and this: http://www.st-v-sw.net/olde/STSWphas.html

Using his 1,500 terrawatt figure you get a yield of 358.508604207 kilotons per second. That is decidedly unimpressive.

[quote]No, we have an idea that they would not violate relativity. Theoretically, wormholes exist at quantum levels, allowing for electron type tunneling. If we had matter with a negative gravitational mass we could line the opening of these quantum wormholes and expand them to useful sizes. There's alot of theory on how they will work. Please don't say things like we would have no idea how wormholes would function if they existed without doing your homework.
We have theories on how they would work. We haven't proven that they exist or that they work as we expect. The general theory of relativity is still a theory as well. And using a wormhole to travel faster than the speed of light doesn't violate relativity. Whether or not you can use them for timetravel is a whole nother issue.


And how fast exactly do stasis fields fire? And yes, star trek can hit ships with that kind of speed difference. Extremely good targeting. Posted a link a few posts back for warp strafing and examples of it in star wars. EDIT: Star trek Furthermore, quantum torpedoes have some support (though I can't remember where it is) that they are guided, methinks.
Stasis Fields are instantaneous.


Why? Because they move faster? Please provide reference to protoss FTL speeds. If you claim it as "instantaneous" please provide source.
...
Every time a unit travels from Auir to another world by walking through a wormhole. The Stalker blinking around.

You say provide evidence that the Protoss travel instantly, I say provide evidence that they don't. Everything shown in the game and the books support my position and nothing shown supports yours.

[sikyon]

Yes I do, instantaneous.
Using his 1,500 terrawatt figure you get a yield of 358.508604207 kilotons per second. That is decidedly unimpressive.

We have theories on how they would work. We haven't proven that they exist or that they work as we expect. The general theory of relativity is still a theory as well. And using a wormhole to travel faster than the speed of light doesn't violate relativity. Whether or not you can use them for timetravel is a whole nother issue.


Stasis Fields are instantaneous.

...
Every time a unit travels from Auir to another world by walking through a wormhole. The Stalker blinking around.

You say provide evidence that the Protoss travel instantly, I say provide evidence that they don't. Everything shown in the game and the books support my position and nothing shown supports yours.

Here we go:

1) Phasers: I'm sure there's a better estimate, somehwere.

2) The point was that you said we have "no idea" about how they would work. We have "some idea".

3) I was asking what the recharge time is. It seems to me that to freeze photon torpedoes you'd need a rapid-firing stasis field.

4) See, here's the problem:
1) when units travel instantaneously, like zealots, they go from one gate to another. This is not the way ships travel in space. Protoss ships don't travel from giant stargates to giant stargates (except through stargates). Basically, they travel the way stalkers do.
2) Stalkers travel instanteously cause the map is tiny. Seriously, how do you even know if it's instant? By looking at it? Wtf? I say it travelled slightly slower than light, and it looks instantanous. What can you say to contradict me?

So. The game doesn't provide evidence that they travel instanteously. Either they go instantly through prebuilt structures, or you can't tell how fast they go because the maps are too small. If you want to provide a book reference, and a reference to where blizzard says books are overriding, be my guest.

[Ditto]

The Federation can glass worlds too, if they want to. But they don't. Obviously, if there's nothing of value, they don't have a stake there anyway. Anyway, moving on...

'If they get a chance to shoot?' They can remain cloaked at all times, if that changes the challenge any. The Protoss can't see invisible enemies either.

The Protoss transporting technology is nothing like the Federation's. They're both nifty, but the Feds' can be used against other people. Protoss tech is sort of Range: Personal.

We do have an idea of how a wormhole would work. It's a *scientific* theory, with rules. That doesn't mean you can say, "I bet if you go into a wormhole, you appear in New Zealand with yellow polka dots."

Yes, time travel is an Ender's Game. It's on the table because you have to mention it if you want to be thorough. It's part of the arsenal. It *was* seriously considered in planning the counterattack against the Dominion, and the Guardian was *very* heavily guarded during the war. Time travel was considered, but most times people don't like using it because of all of the unpredictable consequences. Most have been accidental, certainly, but that doesn't mean they can't use it tidily when they want to.

A small unit warping around the map does not mean large units can. They require significant (to understate it) differences in hardware and power sourcing. Are there *actual* examples of ships popping around with documented travel times, as was requested? The onus of proof is on the defending party. We could certainly say that the Federation always wins like it always has, because it always has. I don't see anything called 'plot armor' in-universe. The Federation cannot die, it's not possible. The Protoss, however can. It's called Game Over, and we've seen it happen every time you got a little sleepy on the joystick. :smallsmile:

To clarify the 'FTL attack' argument: A ship moving at lightspeed can basically drop a photon torpedo 'mine', which will fall out of warp shortly after clearing the ship, appearing directly at its target, while the ship has already moved off at light speed.

The Federation *has* been a reactionary force. This by no means implies that it cannot be proactive - and in the OP, the scenario is them being attacked anyway. It would be a slightly different sort of debate if we were considering what would happen if the Feds attacked the Protoss.

ST has many other points in its favor beside Time Travel. They include weapons output, range of weaponry, being Human, transporters, technobabble-launching deflector arrays, and more... those can be responded to, and that's the direction anti-Fed folks ought head with the discussion.

[Emperor Tippy]

Here we go:

1) Phasers: I'm sure there's a better estimate, somehwere.
Thats from the link you provided. Find a better one if you want a different yield.


2) The point was that you said we have "no idea" about how they would work. We have "some idea".
No, we have some idea about how we think they may work.


3) I was asking what the recharge time is. It seems to me that to freeze photon torpedoes you'd need a rapid-firing stasis field.
Considering it freezes everything in a fairly large area, thats doubtful.


4) See, here's the problem:
1) when units travel instantaneously, like zealots, they go from one gate to another. This is not the way ships travel in space. Protoss ships don't travel from giant stargates to giant stargates (except through stargates). Basically, they travel the way stalkers do.
2) Stalkers travel instanteously cause the map is tiny. Seriously, how do you even know if it's instant? By looking at it? Wtf? I say it travelled slightly slower than light, and it looks instantanous. What can you say to contradict me?
That fact that their description says "Nevertheless the only one that has been witnessed consistently is the ability to instantly teleport or 'blink' from one spot to another".


So. The game doesn't provide evidence that they travel instanteously. Either they go instantly through prebuilt structures, or you can't tell how fast they go because the maps are too small. If you want to provide a book reference, and a reference to where blizzard says books are overriding, be my guest.

I haven't read the books, don't have them and didn't even know they existed until today. Someone earlier on this thread said that they were top level cannon, the OP actually.

And Blizzard states that the Stalkers travel instantaneously.

[sikyon]

Thats from the link you provided. Find a

Considering it freezes everything in a fairly large area, thats doubtful.


That fact that their description says "Nevertheless the only one that has been witnessed consistently is the ability to instantly teleport or 'blink' from one spot to another".

And Blizzard states that the Stalkers travel instantaneously.

Well sure, it freezes things in an area, but the ship just fires more torpedoes.

Also, notice the word "witnessed". This would imply that the descriptor of instantly is someone who witnessed it occur - and people can't witness things faster than certain speeds, can they? And that speed is much slower than light. And as you may know, alot of blizzard fluff is written from a Terran perspective. And And And And?

[Emperor Tippy]

The Federation can glass worlds too, if they want to. But they don't. Obviously, if there's nothing of value, they don't have a stake there anyway. Anyway, moving on...
When has the Federation shown the ability to glass worlds?


'If they get a chance to shoot?' They can remain cloaked at all times, if that changes the challenge any. The Protoss can't see invisible enemies either.
It has nothing to do with cloaking or no cloaking. It has to do wit hteh fact that the Protoss are the attacking force and get to decided where and when to hit the Federation. They pick undefended places. The Federation doesn't have anywhere near the forces necessary to protect all of its worlds.


The Protoss transporting technology is nothing like the Federation's. They're both nifty, but the Feds' can be used against other people. Protoss tech is sort of Range: Personal.
True.


We do have an idea of how a wormhole would work. It's a *scientific* theory, with rules. That doesn't mean you can say, "I bet if you go into a wormhole, you appear in New Zealand with yellow polka dots."
And we have no idea whether or not the theory is correct. Many, many strongly held theories have been proven wrong before.


Yes, time travel is an Ender's Game. It's on the table because you have to mention it if you want to be thorough. It's part of the arsenal. It *was* seriously considered in planning the counterattack against the Dominion, and the Guardian was *very* heavily guarded during the war. Time travel was considered, but most times people don't like using it because of all of the unpredictable consequences. Most have been accidental, certainly, but that doesn't mean they can't use it tidily when they want to.
And many theories about wormholes state that they could allow time travel. The protoss have the shown ability to freeze tiem in an area.


A small unit warping around the map does not mean large units can. They require significant (to understate it) differences in hardware and power sourcing. Are there *actual* examples of ships popping around with documented travel times, as was requested? The onus of proof is on the defending party. We could certainly say that the Federation always wins like it always has, because it always has. I don't see anything called 'plot armor' in-universe. The Federation cannot die, it's not possible. The Protoss, however can. It's called Game Over, and we've seen it happen every time you got a little sleepy on the joystick. :smallsmile:
He asked for proof that the Protoss have instantaneous transport tech. The Stalkers have it. I met the burden of proof.


To clarify the 'FTL attack' argument: A ship moving at lightspeed can basically drop a photon torpedo 'mine', which will fall out of warp shortly after clearing the ship, appearing directly at its target, while the ship has already moved off at light speed.

The Federation *has* been a reactionary force. This by no means implies that it cannot be proactive - and in the OP, the scenario is them being attacked anyway. It would be a slightly different sort of debate if we were considering what would happen if the Feds attacked the Protoss.
The Federation can't attack the Protoss. They can warp their entire civilization and infrastructure to another world. Their is also the fact that Strak Trek warp drives are so slow. 70 years to cross 1 quadrant of the galaxy. The Protoss own half of the milkway and have for a while. That alone proves the superiority of Protoss FTL travel, they have explored and conquered half the milkway galaxy when the Federation takes a human life time to even get through 1 quadrant of the galaxy.


ST has many other points in its favor beside Time Travel. They include weapons output, range of weaponry, being Human, transporters, technobabble-launching deflector arrays, and more... those can be responded to, and that's the direction anti-Fed folks ought head with the discussion.

Weapons output? Please. Phasers are in the kilotons per second range. To be able to glass a planet the Protoss weapons have to be in the many gigaton range, at least.

[Emperor Tippy]

Well sure, it freezes things in an area, but the ship just fires more torpedoes.
Good for the ship. It doesn't really matter.


Also, notice the word "witnessed". This would imply that the descriptor of instantly is someone who witnessed it occur - and people can't witness things faster than certain speeds, can they? And that speed is much slower than light. And as you may know, alot of blizzard fluff is written from a Terran perspective. And And And And?
...
Are we going to get this anal retentive?

I should have known this would happen when you linked to a website claiming that Star Trek could beat Star Wars. That argument is so blatantly flawed so as not to even be funny. The speed difference is the same.

[Solo]

Well sure, it freezes things in an area, but the ship just fires more torpedoes.

Also, notice the word "witnessed". This would imply that the descriptor of instantly is someone who witnessed it occur - and people can't witness things faster than certain speeds, can they? And that speed is much slower than light. And as you may know, alot of blizzard fluff is written from a Terran perspective. And And And And?

Now you're just nitpicking semantics.

[starwoof]

'If they get a chance to shoot?' They can remain cloaked at all times, if that changes the challenge any. The Protoss can't see invisible enemies either.

They can if they have Observers. Which are themselves invisible.

[sikyon]

Now you're just nitpicking semantics.

Excuse me? This is far from semantics. Being able to travel "faster than the human eye" and being able to travel "instantly" are VERY different things when it comes to something like galaxies. If it said "instantly" then maybe, sure. But it does say "witnessed".

If I you told me that you saw a flying shark 15 years ago and I questioned the fact that it was a person who saw it and they could have been mistaken, especially since it was 15 years ago, would you call that semantics?



I should have known this would happen when you linked to a website claiming that Star Trek could beat Star Wars. That argument is so blatantly flawed so as not to even be funny. The speed difference is the same.

You know what guys, I'm really getting tired of you just saying things and not backing them up. You have a problem with the argument? Question the argument. Don't make vague statements like "so blatantly flawed as to not even be funny" without telling us why. Back up your theories with logic and references, please.

Speed difference is the same? That's a HUGE speed difference between 500000 times the speed of light, which seems instantaneous and .8 times the speed of light, which also seems instantaneous.

Also, protoss could control half a galaxy if they explored it before hand, built gates there and then used those gates as their primary mode of inter-galactic travel. That makes as much sense as protoss being able to travel across the galaxy within seconds.

[Solo]

Ok, as long as we're gonna be nitpicky, how about this?

A Stalker attack was captured on video and analyzed, thus the the witnesses could conclude that it moved "instantaniously".

[Ditto]

Well, the witnessed thing is a fair point. That's hearsay. (This is hardly a point to disprove the awesomeness of Stalker-jumping, but this statement cannot alone be the defense.) Also, I was wondering if other SC ships can do this - *large* ones, and consistently.

This stasis field thing is getting old. The Federation can freeze time locally too. The radius of the effect in question was about 1/4 AU, IIRC. Can the Protoss gadget stop all time between Earth and Venus? What is its area of effect? And can the stasis field freeze energy weapons? Star Trek ships have decidedly longer ranges, and the Star Trek time-stop equivalent does stop energy discharges.

The Federation can render world uninhabitable by any number of tricks. The trilithium torpedo into the sun wipes the whole system in a manner of minutes. Phasers can bore through the crust of a planet with enough precision to control the movement of tectonic activity. If they turned the power all the way up and had at it, it would cause massive plate shifts. A quantum torpedo, fearsome in its own right, laden with a cannister of trilithium resin rendered a planet's atmosphere toxic (*caustic*, even) - and that was just one torpedo used for dispersal. I don't know what would happen if you tried to create a warp bubble within (and moving further into) a planet's gravity well, but I suspect the effect would be spectacular. Congratulations, you cannot play on this world any longer. Have a cookie.

The OP set up a scenario with both sides arriving at a place of common interest. Offensive forces and homeworlds and slagging planets aren't relevant to the original topic...

[sikyon]

Ok, as long as we're gonna be nitpicky, how about this?

A Stalker attack was captured on video and analyzed, thus the the witnesses could conclude that it moved "instantaniously".

Video? You seriously think that "video" can capture movements near light speed? Or for that matter, above light speed?

For the record, it cannot. Also, you can't show that this is what happened. All we know is that someone thinks it happened instantly.

[Solo]

Excuse me? This is far from semantics. Being able to travel "faster than the human eye" and being able to travel "instantly" are VERY different things when it comes to something like galaxies. If it said "instantly" then maybe, sure. But it does say "witnessed".


How do you know who witnessed it?

It could have been witnessed by a Science Vessel with monitoring equipment for all you know.


Video? You seriously think that "video" can capture movements near light speed? Or for that matter, above light speed?


Futuristic video. In a setting where there are such things as FTL travel, wormholes, giant telepathic brains, direct energy weapons capable of sterilizing entire planets, mind control, stasis fields, cloaking devices...

[Arameus]

Attention Trekkies: The Protoss own you. They have your title, your deed, and your pedigree.

If the battle takes place in space, the Protoss beat the Federation in a manner similar to a demonic, cyborg velociraptor devouring a bichon frise.

If it takes place on the surface of the planet itself, it would be more like that thing Foghorn Leghorn does where he lifts the dog's ass in the air and wails on it with a 2x4 at about 240 beats per minute, except the 2x4 is a spiked two-ball mace-and-chain and Foghorn Leghorn is the Terminator. Original T-800, not the crappy T2: Judgment Day Arnold with 'feelings.'

[Solo]

Attention Trekkies: The Protoss own you. They have your title, your deed, and your pedigree.

If the battle takes place in space, the Protoss beat the Federation in a manner similar to a demonic, cyborg velociraptor devouring a bichon frise.

If it takes place on the surface of the planet itself, it would be more like that thing Foghorn Leghorn does where he lifts the dog's ass in the air and wails on it with a 2x4 at about 240 beats per minute, except the 2x4 is a spiked two-ball mace-and-chain and Foghorn Leghorn is the Terminator. Original T-800, not the crappy T2: Judgment Day Arnold with 'feelings.'
As much as I appreciate your enthusiasm in defense of my position, that didn't help advance the argument any.

[Emperor Tippy]

Excuse me? This is far from semantics. Being able to travel "faster than the human eye" and being able to travel "instantly" are VERY different things when it comes to something like galaxies. If it said "instantly" then maybe, sure. But it does say "witnessed".

If I you told me that you saw a flying shark 15 years ago and I questioned the fact that it was a person who saw it and they could have been mistaken, especially since it was 15 years ago, would you call that semantics?

Witnessed doesn't just mean seen by the human eye.


You know what guys, I'm really getting tired of you just saying things and not backing them up. You have a problem with the argument? Question the argument. Don't make vague statements like "so blatantly flawed as to not even be funny" without telling us why. Back up your theories with logic and references, please.

Speed difference is the same? That's a HUGE speed difference between 500000 times the speed of light, which seems instantaneous and .8 times the speed of light, which also seems instantaneous.

Star Wars ships move faster than Star Trek subspace communications and are an order of magnitude faster than Stark Trek ships. This speed advantage means that the Empire can attack a currently undefended world and be gone before reinforcements can arrive. This means the empire wins. And that isn't counting the fact that the empire has over twice as many Star Destroyers as the Federation has ships of all classes.


Also, protoss could control half a galaxy if they explored it before hand, built gates there and then used those gates as their primary mode of inter-galactic travel. That makes as much sense as protoss being able to travel across the galaxy within seconds.

They are shown ingame to travel to numerous locations that they have never visited before.

[sikyon]

Witnessed doesn't just mean seen by the human eye.

Star Wars ships move faster than Star Trek subspace communications and are an order of magnitude faster than Stark Trek ships. This speed advantage means that the Empire can attack a currently undefended world and be gone before reinforcements can arrive. This means the empire wins. And that isn't counting the fact that the empire has over twice as many Star Destroyers as the Federation has ships of all classes.

They are shown ingame to travel to numerous locations that they have never visited before.

1) True. But it also means that the data here is unreliable.

2) The site I provided does not postulate that star trek can actually beat star wars. It simply presents an analysis of the facts that is based of primary cannon, which presents star trek in a much more favorable light. Please read more carefully, but I don't blame you for the assumption that the site tries to prove star trek wins (pretty easy assumption to make).

http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWhyperspeed.html
There is an analysis here of cannon, on screen hyperdrive speeds for star wars. The analysis is, of course, abit sketchy due to a lack of details but it seems reasonable enough to me. But this isn't the issue (though it is interesting).

3) Yes, toss do travel to tons of locations. But do you know how long it took them to get there?

[PaladinBoy]

'If they get a chance to shoot?' They can remain cloaked at all times, if that changes the challenge any. The Protoss can't see invisible enemies either.

The Protoss have a well-defined set of units with advanced enough sensors to detect invisible or cloaked units. Without knowing how those sensors work, it be difficult to say whether or not they work on Federation cloaking.

Which assumes that the Federation HAS cloaking technology on a large enough scale to use it with every ship and every fleet. The show, IIRC, provides no evidence supporting that..... only that the Feds have a few cloaking devices and/or secret development projects.


The Protoss transporting technology is nothing like the Federation's. They're both nifty, but the Feds' can be used against other people. Protoss tech is sort of Range: Personal.

Federation technology has a maximum range. Protoss technology can be used anywhere you can get a single Probe. And the Feds can't use their transporters to damage the Protoss until the Protoss lose their shields anyway.


Yes, time travel is an Ender's Game. It's on the table because you have to mention it if you want to be thorough. It's part of the arsenal. It *was* seriously considered in planning the counterattack against the Dominion, and the Guardian was *very* heavily guarded during the war. Time travel was considered, but most times people don't like using it because of all of the unpredictable consequences. Most have been accidental, certainly, but that doesn't mean they can't use it tidily when they want to.

Can you provide a reference for the idea that the Feds were considering time travel against the Dominion?

On top of that, I don't think that a few accidental experiences really constitute a stable research and development for time travel as a weapon.


ST has many other points in its favor beside Time Travel. *snip* and that's the direction anti-Fed folks ought head with the discussion.

Okay, here we go.


weapons output

The Protoss have perfectly good weapons. For that matter, as someone pointed out earlier, a fleet in DS9 predicted several hours for a 30-40 ship fleet to slag a planet, whereas the Protoss did it with a few Carriers in a similar amount of time. I wouldn't say that either side really has a concrete advantage here.


range of weaponry

It ranges from difficult to impossible to debate this point, as any Protoss weapon range is almost entirely based on in-game distances, which are so distorted for entirely metagame concerns that it's about impossible to determine distances.


being Human

:confused: Huh? They're human, so what? Protoss are 3 meters tall with psychic powers that can create blades that can slice through tanks, storms that can rip apart multiple tanks, or hallucinations that can't be distinguished from the real thing by powerful sensors. Humans have technology....... which the Protoss match. Where's the advantage in being human?


transporters

The primary advantage here over Protoss warp technology is that transporters can be used on enemies and don't (usually) require a focus at the destination. And Protoss warp technology compensates with unimaginable range and speed.


technobabble-launching deflector arrays

So...... the deflector array can do any number of varied things defined by the writers' whims? Without knowing how it works and how the Protoss technology opposing it works, there's little that can be said. As there are no writers to allow it to use exactly the proper solution required by the week's episode, I think it should be confined to it's normal, well-defined use as an array for the deflector shields.

[13_CBS]

Hmm, I mentioned this a while back, but if the Feds were ever to develop some kind of EMP weapon (and knowing how good people like Geordie are at jury rigging...), I wonder how the tides would be turning...:smallconfused:

[Arameus]

As much as I appreciate your enthusiasm in defense of my position, that didn't help advance the argument any.

I wasn't defending you. I don't care even a little bit about your ridiculous debate over physics you wouldn't understand with three Ph.D's, and your taking part in such a ridiculous and trivial contest is pretty pathetic, especially since you're taking for granted that anyone posting a pro-Toss post is coming to your aid.

I don't need to argue high-level quantum physics to tell the world that the Protoss could beat the Federation anywhere, anytime. And if the Feds try that 'time travel' bullcrap, they can just open a black hole in the middle of their fleet so they can take a good look at spacetime from a fresh, new perspective for the brief instant they're not compressed into a singularity.

[Solo]

being Human

Speciesist!

As for the EMP weapon, you don't think the 'toss can whip one up as well? Hello? Millinia-old advanced alien species here!

[Solo]

I wasn't defending you. I don't care even a little bit about your ridiculous debate over physics you wouldn't understand with three Ph.D's, and your taking part in such a ridiculous and trivial contest is pretty pathetic, especially since you're taking for granted that anyone posting a pro-Toss post is coming to your aid.

I don't need to argue high-level quantum physics to tell the world that the Protoss could beat the Federation anywhere, anytime. And if the Feds try that 'time travel' bullcrap, they can just open a black hole in the middle of their fleet so they can take a good look at spacetime from a fresh, new perspective for the brief instant they're not compressed into a singularity.

Careful there, partner. That could be interpreted as flaming.

You should take a stress pill and think over what you just said.

[sikyon]

Speciesist!

As for the EMP weapon, you don't think the 'toss can whip one up as well? Hello? Millinia-old advanced alien species here!

EMP's don't work on star trek sheilds (remember, protoss sheilds are psionic)


I wasn't defending you. I don't care even a little bit about your ridiculous debate over physics you wouldn't understand with three Ph.D's, and your taking part in such a ridiculous and trivial contest is pretty pathetic, especially since you're taking for granted that anyone posting a pro-Toss post is coming to your aid.

Calling him pathetic is flaming, methinks.

[Solo]

Actually, 'toss use plasma shields.

In the game, if you click on a 'toss unit and go to its abilities, it will say that the unit has "Plasma Shields"


Exactly what a plasma shield is and how it works, however, is up to debate...

[LordVader]

I wasn't defending you. I don't care even a little bit about your ridiculous debate over physics you wouldn't understand with three Ph.D's, and your taking part in such a ridiculous and trivial contest is pretty pathetic, especially since you're taking for granted that anyone posting a pro-Toss post is coming to your aid.

I don't need to argue high-level quantum physics to tell the world that the Protoss could beat the Federation anywhere, anytime. And if the Feds try that 'time travel' bullcrap, they can just open a black hole in the middle of their fleet so they can take a good look at spacetime from a fresh, new perspective for the brief instant they're not compressed into a singularity.

Just so you know, the Mothership lost the black hole ability.:smalltongue:
But time travel is basically Star Trek's way of livening up a show every now and then. Physically, it's completely impossible. Just thinking about the paradoxes makes my head hurt.

[sikyon]

Actually, 'toss use plasma shields.

In the game, if you click on a 'toss unit and go to its abilities, it will say that the unit has "Plasma Shields"


Exactly what a plasma shield is and how it works, however, is up to debate...

I thought that in the starcraft manual it talked about protoss using tech to enhance their psi powers to make shields... I may just be thinking about stuff like zealot blades, however. Don't have it with me.

[Executor]

Just so you know, the Mothership lost the black hole ability.:smalltongue:


Yes, but it can still slow down time in area and cloak itself. Also, let us not forget that one of the Mothership's abilities is called the Planet Cracker. A name like that definetely indicates something!

[Counterpower]

Well, the witnessed thing is a fair point. That's hearsay. (This is hardly a point to disprove the awesomeness of Stalker-jumping, but this statement cannot alone be the defense.) Also, I was wondering if other SC ships can do this - *large* ones, and consistently.

Is "it depends on whether there's an Arbiter around" a valid point? They can recall anything, from a Carrier to an Observer, a unknown distance. Very possibly, that recall field is almost as unlimited as the rest of the Protoss's warp technology...... after all, it spanned planets in the Terran Brood War campaign. Doesn't help you get to new places, but then, neither does the Fed transporter (not across planets, at any rate).


This stasis field thing is getting old. The Federation can freeze time locally too. The radius of the effect in question was about 1/4 AU, IIRC. Can the Protoss gadget stop all time between Earth and Venus? What is its area of effect? And can the stasis field freeze energy weapons? Star Trek ships have decidedly longer ranges, and the Star Trek time-stop equivalent does stop energy discharges.

And how many times have they done that? How much did it cost them to do that? Was it an accident? Was it something they could turn on and off at will? I'd like more info. Besides, the Protoss variant prevents anything, at all, from occuring to the targets. They instantly freeze in place, and nothing can affect them until the stasis fades.

I'm getting tired of the "longer range" shot, myself. How do you know that? The Protoss CAN glass a planet from orbit, meaning that their ranges cannot possibly be as limited as the gameplay would provide. (As if it was possible to judge distances from screenshots anyway. A Science Vessel, according to in-game shots, is no larger than a single Siege Tank, or only slightly so. And yet, you can have an ENTIRE BATTLE in a Science Vessel.)


The Federation can render world uninhabitable by any number of tricks. The trilithium torpedo into the sun wipes the whole system in a manner of minutes. Phasers can bore through the crust of a planet with enough precision to control the movement of tectonic activity. If they turned the power all the way up and had at it, it would cause massive plate shifts. A quantum torpedo, fearsome in its own right, laden with a cannister of trilithium resin rendered a planet's atmosphere toxic (*caustic*, even) - and that was just one torpedo used for dispersal. I don't know what would happen if you tried to create a warp bubble within (and moving further into) a planet's gravity well, but I suspect the effect would be spectacular. Congratulations, you cannot play on this world any longer. Have a cookie.

Great, both the Protoss and the Federation can maul entire worlds. The point is that the Protoss weapons tech is no less than that of the Feds.


The OP set up a scenario with both sides arriving at a place of common interest. Offensive forces and homeworlds and slagging planets aren't relevant to the original topic...

How, exactly, would the Feds defeat the Protoss on-planet? Just out of curiosity. What CAN the Feds do to destroy a hardened Protoss base? I mean, personally, I think if the Protoss could get 12 Zealots on any Fed ship, that Fed ship would be utterly screwed. Humans with Type II phasers are just incapable of defeating 3 meter tall warriors with psionic armblades! And Zealots are the weakest of the Protoss troops. If there was even one Dark Templar on a Fed ship, that ship would be in serious trouble. A Reaver in one of the cargo holds could wreak havoc. (Or in Engineering. Goodbye!) And those are all but commando raids! What would the Feds do against a Protoss army? Try to fight Archons with Type II phasers? Go up against a Reaver with a little mounted phaser cannon that can't even see the thing? (Arbiters are so much fun, right?) And it gets even worse when you consider a hardened Protoss base with multiple production facilities that's cranking out Carriers and Dark Templar.

Also, about being human: isn't that a disadvantage? Think about it: can any human you've yet seen brew a storm of psychic energy that could destroy your house? Any of the Star Trek humans (unenhanced by Q or similar entities) capable of bending light around them to make them completely invisible? Can they create perfect hallucinations? Power armblades that can cut through anything I've seen?