3.5 Paladin that is more like an Inquisitor?

[Reprimand]

So I don't really like 3.5 paladin and have had very bad experiences with other players playing, robocop bad = exterminate type paladins. To the extent that many players believe that murder is justifiable if a race is mostly evil or a persons alignment shows as evil even if they are doing nothing wrong and have broken zero laws.

I kind of wanted to show a different style of play for the class to the group I play with on a regular basis. I was wondering if there was a playstyle of paladin that is more in line with an investigator for the church/god they are associated with cross class ranks in search or taking able learner. I would like to primarily keep the class levels as close to pure paladin as possible. Not looking for optimization so much as a player mindset.

For example if I am playing a paladin in a town with corrupt guards, officials and high crime rate I cannot go and stop every single petty criminal I run across because I would be stopping criminals 24 hours a day until I collapse from exhaustion. Letting guards know about certain things and letting it go while pragmatic is not necessarily evil or chaotic and focusing my attention on the greater goal of cleaning up the town. playing the long game dealing with officials and turning the great political machine against itself causing it's gears to grind until it breaks.

Basically i want to play a more social/investigative (stealth?) oriented paladin that does not advertise his paladin hood maybe even having a way to suppress their aura of good and law.

[DeTess]

This is something you should discuss with your DM, I think. That is, if you want to play the 'Paladin' class form the PHB, as their code of conduct can be interpreted in a pretty restrictive way.

If you just want to play something calling itself a 'Paladin', you could roll a good Crusader or one of the alternative good alignment Paladin variants (they where in Dragon magazine, I think, someone will be dropping by with the exact details), which should allow you to do what you describe here.

[Saintheart]

Agreed that this is more of a DM issue than anything else . Although jerk players can give paladins a bad name, it's jerk DMs who do a hell of a lot more damage via restrictive readings of the code of conduct. We're talking about the sort of DM here who you have to buy a Phylactery of Faithfulness against just to keep from falling off your alignment.

Additionally, maybe consider running a Paladin of Freedom rather than a standard paladin. CG alignment, so you don't have the honour stumbling block of a standard paladin, and you can engage in undercover missions while associating with evil folk.

[Darrin]

I think this covers it pretty well:

Wheaton's Law. (http://www.wheatonslaw.com/)

[Fizban]

Don't see how this is a question: clearly the playstyle/mindset/whatever exists because you just wrote it.

Paladins don't have an aura of law. They also have Undetectable Alignment on their spell list, though they can't cast it until 8th level.

Dictionary.com says, "associate, 2. to join as a companion, partner, or ally". Unless your Paladin is teaming up with the corrupt officials they're maneuvering around, they are not violating their code of conduct. The "legitimate" part of the authority clause has always been there for obvious reasons, and punish does not equal immediately subdual and arrest. If punishing those who harm or threaten innocents in a particular area requires a more measured approach, then take that approach.

If your DM demands the sort of reading of the code where you must immediately kill anything that looks anyone funny, then you're out of luck, but you mention it's other players' playing that is the problem, not your DM's portrayal. Since the DM needs to approve all characters in the first place, you should already be asking the question of how they intend to run it.

Ideally, if you're trying to "teach" them that Paladin does not equal robocop, it would be in conjunction with the DM, passing yourself off as another melee class until your Paladin abilities actually become relevant, preferably after enough sessions that everyone's got handle on the party and isn't questioning anything.

[Luckmann]

So I don't really like 3.5 paladin and have had very bad experiences with other players playing, robocop bad = exterminate type paladins. To the extent that many players believe that murder is justifiable if a race is mostly evil or a persons alignment shows as evil even if they are doing nothing wrong and have broken zero laws.Before we set off, I want to just underline that there's absolutely nothing wrong with Paladin Robocop. I'd say that it's even preferable to Paladin Judge Dredd, even though that os also entirely valid. Also, "murder" of an inherently evil race is entirely justifiable under most classic creeds of good, and does in fact not constitute murder; the paladin sends the subjects in question to be judged. Lawful Good does not mean Lawful Nice, and the extremes of both 'Good' and 'Lawful' has always been implied to potentially be fairly horrifying, just look up some of Gygax's comments on the matter and paladins.

"Nits make lice" is enough to wipe out that pesky goblin village.

Also, this has nothing to do with 3.5. This is a fairly common type of Paladin outside of perhaps some of the more modernist reinterpretations.

That being said, going into the direction of a Lawful Good Inquisitor of all things, whatwith the implied reliance on torture and rooting out insidious evil, sounds odd. Most versions of an Inquisitor that I've seen wouldn't just be much like the paladins above, but would often be within theie logical rights to apply largely the same logic to even Good people, in the interest of ensuring that they are truly good, and they would likely do so with the blessing of their church and without technically violating their alignments, although they may end up skirting awful close to Lawful Neutral.

All that being said, this really isn't a matter of class. I might've gotten a bit lost there, but my point is that the characterization is up to you. The basic Paladin already has all the pieces to act as an investigator, especially if he gets help from a group of people with a varying skillset, or perhaps dips into things like a level of Factotum or Rogue himself. There's absolutely nothing wrong with your concept, and an investigative Paladin is a really cool idea. Another option would be to just be a straight cleric ans, again, just play it as an investigator, perhapse use the Prestige Paladin option.

There's even a Prestige Class called Chuch Inquisitor that you should check out, which would fit like a glove. Personally, I think the idea of a Paladin/Grey Guard/Church Inquisitor could be really cool, and be a kind of Paladin that generally pretends not to be much of a Paladin in order to investigate crimes, but that nontheless sticks to his alignment more than most Gray Guards probably would.

[liquidformat]

ya like Luckmann said gray guard/church inquisitor is a good choice and if you want to focus more on the stealth and what not look at something like Nightsong Enforcer.

On a side note I have always found church inquisitor to be rather strange since in the strictest sense any cleric that breaks their 'code' and commits acts going against their god should be loosing casting and what not anyways. I suppose the church inquisitor was meant more for investigating people committing acts in the name of the church and people who are not clerics?

[Luckmann]

ya like Luckmann said gray guard/church inquisitor is a good choice and if you want to focus more on the stealth and what not look at something like Nightsong Enforcer.

On a side note I have always found church inquisitor to be rather strange since in the strictest sense any cleric that breaks their 'code' and commits acts going against their god should be loosing casting and what not anyways. I suppose the church inquisitor was meant more for investigating people committing acts in the name of the church and people who are not clerics?
It is entirely possible to be a member of a church and be a non-caster, and a lot of priests are lay priests, and even more likely do not have any cleric levels or anything of the sort. Also, it is entirely possible to betray your faith in various ways without losing your access to spells; a priest of Selûne that falls to Malar will still be able to cast spells - granted by Malar - for example.

It's not like they have people that constantly walk around with Detect Evil (and if they do, the priest in question may just be hiding his alignment) or demand that everyone cast spells in front of everyone else, every day.

[hamishspence]

So I don't really like 3.5 paladin and have had very bad experiences with other players playing, robocop bad = exterminate type paladins. To the extent that many players believe that murder is justifiable if a race is mostly evil or a persons alignment shows as evil even if they are doing nothing wrong and have broken zero laws.


Also, "murder" of an inherently evil race is entirely justifiable under most classic creeds of good, and does in fact not constitute murder; the paladin sends the subjects in question to be judged.

Going by BOED, this only applies to Always Evil beings - not Usually Evil, let alone Often Evil.

And even then, local laws may bend this somewhat - in a cosmopolitan planar metropolis like Union or Sigil, vampires and demons may be protected by the same laws as "ordinary" beings.


So I was poking through Libris Mortis to read up on the true necromancer when I came upon this lil gem from the web enhancement adventure:


Tarus' Banquet

DETECT EVIL
Tarus and his servitor vampires, Praslin and Kantos, are evil and can be revealed as such by detect evil and similar effects. But an evil nature is not considered sufficient provocation for murder, and the PCs don't have the legal right to attack people just because they detect as evil. In fact, doing so is often a good way to land in prison. Tarus status as a noble makes this situation particularly difficult, since an unprovoked attack on a member of the nobility is considered a capital crime in most lands. Players who get itchy to attack should be warned about the illegality of their actions, and perhaps of the limitations of the spell as well—Tarus could well detect as evil because he has evil thoughts, even if he has never commited an evil deed.

[Reprimand]

Going by BOED, this only applies to Always Evil beings - not Usually Evil, let alone Often Evil.

And even then, local laws may bend this somewhat - in a cosmopolitan planar metropolis like Union or Sigil, vampires and demons may be protected by the same laws as "ordinary" beings.

This is pretty much EXACTLY what I was referring to! Not even in the same scope. Like if there's just a human npc in a town and his alignment just so happens to register as south of neutral then it's open season despite the fact he's doing absolutely nothing wrong. Being evil is not a crime. Maybe he's just a prick. Actually doing something wrong IS against the law and amoral meaning I should do something about that.

Though perhaps I used the word inquisitor when I should have used the world investigator. Think like a private investigator. Particularly if the campaign takes place primarily in one location I would have to obey and follow the laws as much as I may or may not agree with them. To defeat a the machine sometimes one must deal with that machine turning cogs and gears againist one another. The cogs and gears I'm refering to are political allies or favors I may accrue over the course of my investigations which I may then use for the good of the city and it's citizens. I'm not taking chaotic or evil actions but also I'm not advertising the fact that I'm a paladin.

Also this is the players I am referring to. The DM has a pretty fair interpretation of codes of conduct and alignment usually unless you consistently act out of alignment you don't change or if you commit an action that is extreme in alignment type.

What's the best way to gain access to cross-class skills as a paladin? What are my best early game options for hiding my alignment?

[DeTess]

What's the best way to gain access to cross-class skills as a paladin?

Be a human, take the able learner feat (from races of destiny) and maybe take your first level in something that isn't a paladin that gets lots of skills, like bard, rogue, beguiler(PHB2), swordsage(toB) or human paragon(UA).

[Reprimand]

Be a human, take the able learner feat (from races of destiny) and maybe take your first level in something that isn't a paladin that gets lots of skills, like bard, rogue, beguiler(PHB2), swordsage(toB) or human paragon(UA).

Is there a ranger variant that gets trapfinding and track that I can dip a level or two to get? or do you think rogue 1 and I should get pick up the track feat? Ideally this is what I want to avoid: There's a part where two paladins are investigating a gate that was destroyed and they both just stand around "No ranks in search. You?" "Nope." Meanwhile there are some pretty huge clues as to what has gone on. Or just the track feat you think? is it possible to run a skill monkey paladin?

[DeTess]

paladin's only get 2+int skillpoints, so making them a skill-monkey is difficult without investing heavily into intelligence. You could take the Nymph's kiss feat (from the Book of Exalted deeds), which among other things gives you another extra skill point per level, but it requires you to be exalted good, and come with a lot of set fluff. The class closest to Paladin would (probably*) be the Crusader, which gets 4+int, but it lacks the Paladins'code of conduct, and I believe your main point here is to prove that that code can be played more reasonably than other people have done uptill now.

Regarding rangers and trapfinding, after a quick look around, there's one ACF (trap expert, which can be found in Dungeonscape) that gives them trapfinding, but it replaces track. 4 levels in scout gives you trapfinding and a bonus feat that can be track, but that's quite a heavy level investment, so I'd go either ranger with that ACF, or rogue and pick up track as a feat if you really want that. Unless this character is supposed to function on his own, you might not need both though (and both features need you to invest in skills to use the feature, but you're going to be short on skill-points).


*bias note: I'm a big fan of the ToB classes, so I might be overlooking other options.

[Reprimand]

paladin's only get 2+int skillpoints, so making them a skill-monkey is difficult without investing heavily into intelligence. You could take the Nymph's kiss feat (from the Book of Exalted deeds), which among other things gives you another extra skill point per level, but it requires you to be exalted good, and come with a lot of set fluff. The class closest to Paladin would (probably*) be the Crusader, which gets 4+int, but it lacks the Paladins'code of conduct, and I believe your main point here is to prove that that code can be played more reasonably than other people have done uptill now.

Regarding rangers and trapfinding, after a quick look around, there's one ACF (trap expert, which can be found in Dungeonscape) that gives them trapfinding, but it replaces track. 4 levels in scout gives you trapfinding and a bonus feat that can be track, but that's quite a heavy level investment, so I'd go either ranger with that ACF, or rogue and pick up track as a feat if you really want that. Unless this character is supposed to function on his own, you might not need both though (and both features need you to invest in skills to use the feature, but you're going to be short on skill-points).


*bias note: I'm a big fan of the ToB classes, so I might be overlooking other options.

I may consider a few levels in ACF ranger or rogue and take the track feat separately.

Paladins come from all sorts of backgrounds after all. I'm certain a paladin who once led a life as a thief would find tremendous use of slight of hand against a BBEG that requires a specific material component or item for their doom spell that they just so happen to be waving around while gloating / monologuing.

[Grim Reader]

Have you considered Prestige Paladin on a high skill chassis?

Half casting advancement, but you can advance 9th level casting so it more than evens out.