Can a Simulacrum Become a Vampire or a Lycanthrope?

[unseenmage]

Assuming Simulacrum ARE NOT Constructs can they contract lycanthropy or vampirism? Or are they immune by virtue of not being able to 'become stronger'.

Looking for as close to RAW answers as we can get but anecdotes about how you've run it/seen it run in your own games is also more than welcome.

Please discuss.

[emeraldstreak]

Assuming Simulacrum ARE NOT Constructs can they contract lycanthropy or vampirism? Or are they immune by virtue of not being able to 'become stronger'.

Looking for as close to RAW answers as we can get but anecdotes about how you've run it/seen it run in your own games is also more than welcome.

Please discuss.

If they are not constructs, they have to be something, presumably their original's type. If said type is appropriate for vampire or lycanthrope, it all hinges on your definition of "become stronger". If +LA=stronger, then no.

[Jack_Simth]

Assuming Simulacrum ARE NOT Constructs can they contract lycanthropy or vampirism? Or are they immune by virtue of not being able to 'become stronger'.

Looking for as close to RAW answers as we can get but anecdotes about how you've run it/seen it run in your own games is also more than welcome.

Please discuss.
Vampirism: Absolutely not. They melt away when killed, and that's a required step for becoming a vampire. When the sim hits 0 HP, it goes away completely; there's no body to rise as a vampire.

Lycanthropy: Eh, maybe. Key clause for this is: "A simulacrum has no ability to become more powerful. It cannot increase its level or abilities."
So there's basically three interpretations:
1) Can't happen (the extra hit dice and LA would make it 'more powerful' so it can't be done).
2) Works just fine (it's not the simulacrum that's increasing it's level or abilities, it's an outside force)
3) It still gets infected, but it can't get more powerful, so a trade happens: The Sim loses levels or hit dice sufficient to make up the hit dice and LA from the new template.

[ezekielraiden]

I would argue no, because the simulacrum is only "partially real." It's still partially "ice and snow," which can't be affected by either vampirism or lycanthropy, to the best of my knowledge.

[Segev]

I would argue no, because the simulacrum is only "partially real." It's still partially "ice and snow," which can't be affected by either vampirism or lycanthropy, to the best of my knowledge.

The best counter-argument I have to this off the top of my head is that you can make a simulacrum of a lycanthrope or a vampire, so it being an illusion doesn't preclude it also being one of those things. That doesn't directly answer the "can it become one" question, with its implied "when it didn't start that way."

The death thing with vampires seems pretty definitive, to me. I have, personally, always read the "cannot get stronger" clause to mean, "It can't gain levels." Taking it too literally beyond that leads to weird, weird arguments like whether it can pick up a club if it wasn't created with one in-hand, because clubs do more damage than its unarmed attacks and it is proficient with a club but not with unarmed strikes.

[unseenmage]

Vampirism: Absolutely not. They melt away when killed, and that's a required step for becoming a vampire. When the sim hits 0 HP, it goes away completely; there's no body to rise as a vampire.

...
Well IIRC they DO leave remains, a pile of ice and snow. Whether that constitutes enough of a corpse to rise as a vampire is doubtful at best.

[Telonius]

Well IIRC they DO leave remains, a pile of ice and snow. Whether that constitutes enough of a corpse to rise as a vampire is doubtful at best.

Frosty the Snowman can come back from that, so I'd say sure. :smallbiggrin:

[Psyren]

From even a purely mathematical sense, and even putting aside power concerns, a vampire of X has more abilities than X. It has therefore "increased its abilities" and should be summarily disallowed.


The best counter-argument I have to this off the top of my head is that you can make a simulacrum of a lycanthrope or a vampire, so it being an illusion doesn't preclude it also being one of those things. That doesn't directly answer the "can it become one" question, with its implied "when it didn't start that way."

The death thing with vampires seems pretty definitive, to me. I have, personally, always read the "cannot get stronger" clause to mean, "It can't gain levels." Taking it too literally beyond that leads to weird, weird arguments like whether it can pick up a club if it wasn't created with one in-hand, because clubs do more damage than its unarmed attacks and it is proficient with a club but not with unarmed strikes.

I for one see nothing weird about "it can't pick up a club." My personal stance is to interpret the limiting clause as broadly as possible, because the spell is plenty powerful even if you're strict about it. If you want a simulacrum of a vampire or werewolf, start with one.

[unseenmage]

From even a purely mathematical sense, and even putting aside power concerns, a vampire of X has more abilities than X. It has therefore "increased its abilities" and should be summarily disallowed.


I for one see nothing weird about "it can't pick up a club." My personal stance is to interpret the limiting clause as broadly as possible, because the spell is plenty powerful even if you're strict about it. If you want a simulacrum of a vampire or werewolf, start with one.
In your game I guess Sims act as stealth Vamp and Werewolf detectors then. :smallbiggrin:

'Well, someone in town is a monster. Gonna need you all to bit this here magically created man to find out who.'
- Wizard Van Helsing

[Psyren]

In your game I guess Sims act as stealth Vamp and Werewolf detectors then. :smallbiggrin:

'Well, someone in town is a monster. Gonna need you all to bit this here magically created man to find out who.'
- Wizard Van Helsing

Kidding aside, someone should tell WVH that would be a pretty lame test. Lycanthropes need to be in animal or hybrid form for their bite to transmit the curse, so getting a bunch of hairless humans to bite your sim wouldn't prove anything anyway.

As for vampires, I would think whoever whips out a pair of fangs to follow your instructions might be a person of interest, but that's just me without any fancy FBI training talking :smalltongue:

[Segev]

I just stand by the point that one has to have a line they draw on what qualifies as "increasing power" or not.

Pick up a club? That's increasing power.

Move to the top of a tower? That's increasing power; you can now drop things for more damage than if you hadn't.

Take off a gag? You now have the power of speech, which you didn't have before you removed that item. (Note: it doesn't say they can't increase their power above what they started with, either. It's a blanket statement. Decrease their power, and they can't ever regain it if you take this too stringently.)

Can't make a Diplomacy check that would improve somebody's opinion of you, either, as that increases your power over them.

Allow your creator to cast mage armor on you? That's increasing your AC, which makes you more powerful.

Move to stand in front of a closed door? You now have the power to block it from opening, which you didn't before. So no moving in front of closed doors.

Heck, no moving at all; you can do things in other locations that you couldn't where you currently are standing.

Personally, I draw the line as being, "You can't gain levels or skills." I would permit things that don't involve learning anything new.

[BowStreetRunner]

I have concerns about the concept of adding a template to an illusion. Even an illusory duplicate of a creature isn't really a creature. Is there any precedent for allowing a template to be added to anything similar to this?

[Psyren]

I just stand by the point that one has to have a line they draw on what qualifies as "increasing power" or not.
...
Personally, I draw the line as being, "You can't gain levels or skills." I would permit things that don't involve learning anything new.

I go a bit further than just levels or skills, while not going as far as some of your examples below (some of which I wasn't sure were totally serious or for comedic effect.)
It's not exhaustive, but as a starting point I would say something like "no items, skills, levels, templates, or special abilities that aren't in the statblock of the thing you copied."

With that in mind:



Pick up a club? That's increasing power.
If {monster} started with a club that they can drop and pick up, they could do so freely I'd say. Handing a sim items they don't already use though, I'd say probably not.

Move to the top of a tower? That's increasing power; you can now drop things for more damage than if you hadn't.
Moving to the top of a tower (if they started with that ability) would be fine with me, and if they started with the ability to drop things they could do that too.

Take off a gag? You now have the power of speech, which you didn't have before you removed that item.
If the monster's entry includes/starts with a gag or some other impediment, then yes, I would say removing that impediment wouldn't be allowed.

(Note: it doesn't say they can't increase their power above what they started with, either. It's a blanket statement. Decrease their power, and they can't ever regain it if you take this too stringently.) For me that would depend on the specific decrease and the abilities of the sim, but in general, I would say they can get back to however they started when copied if they have the ability to do so. So for example, if you copy a sim with a regeneration ability and it takes damage, its regen would allow it to heal itself.

Can't make a Diplomacy check that would improve somebody's opinion of you, either, as that increases your power over them.
If using Diplomacy is something the monster does, that was already factored into its CR I'd say. Having said that, it's ability to do so could very easily be limited by the specific orders you gave it.

Allow your creator to cast mage armor on you? That's increasing your AC, which makes you more powerful.
The monster isn't doing that, so it doesn't count.

Move to stand in front of a closed door? You now have the power to block it from opening, which you didn't before. So no moving in front of closed doors.
I'd say you did have that power before if you can both move and block doors.

Heck, no moving at all; you can do things in other locations that you couldn't where you currently are standing.
See tower answer


Again, just clarifying my own interpretation, YMMV.

[Jack_Simth]

Well IIRC they DO leave remains, a pile of ice and snow. Whether that constitutes enough of a corpse to rise as a vampire is doubtful at best.The specific wording of that portion of the Simulacrum (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/simulacrum.htm) spell is:
If reduced to 0 hit points or otherwise destroyed, it reverts to snow and melts instantly into nothingness. (emphasis added)

So... no, you don't even get a pile of ice and snow.

[PrismCat21]

Simulacrums are not Humanoids, Monsterous Humanoids, or Giants. So they cannot to be afflicted with Vampirism or Lycanthropy.
.
As far as I can see, they are typeless.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Well, a simulacrum can never gain their daily spells, as it's doubtful they start with a full allotment of them (or any at all), despite having caster levels.

And even if they did, they could never buff themselves.

[Necroticplague]

No. Those templates are things that you can apply to Creatures. A Simulacrum is a Spell Effect. Therefore, it cannot have Creature templates applied to it.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

No. Those templates are things that you can apply to Creatures. A Simulacrum is a Spell Effect. Therefore, it cannot have Creature templates applied to it.It has Wis and Cha scores. By definition, it's a creature.

[unseenmage]

Simulacrums are not Humanoids, Monsterous Humanoids, or Giants. So they cannot to be afflicted with Vampirism or Lycanthropy.
.
As far as I can see, they are typeless.
To my knowledge nothing that is a creature is typeless.
As a duplicate if a creature it gains that creatures type.



No. Those templates are things that you can apply to Creatures. A Simulacrum is a Spell Effect. Therefore, it cannot have Creature templates applied to it.
As an Instantaneous effect the Simulacrum persists in an antimagic field and cannot be dispelled.
In addition to the fact that the spell says it is a creature.

[PrismCat21]

In addition to the fact that the spell says it is a creature.
An illusory duplicate of a creature.
Not a creature in its on right.


To my knowledge nothing that is a creature is typeless.
As a duplicate if a creature it gains that creatures type.
Illusory duplicate. Illusions are not creatures.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

An illusory duplicate of a creature.
Not a creature in its on right.

Illusory duplicate. Illusions are not creatures.Again, anything with both a Wis and Cha score is a critter creature, by definition. It might be artificial, it might be temporary, but it's still a creature.

Also see: polymorph any object.

[Bronk]

I think.... I wouldn't allow a simulacrum to gain the curse of lycanthropy because it's a magical disease/curse. The Raise Dead spell implies that those attach to your soul because they persist after being raised, but since simulacrums don't have souls...

[unseenmage]

I think.... I wouldn't allow a simulacrum to gain the curse of lycanthropy because it's a magical disease/curse. The Raise Dead spell implies that those attach to your soul because they persist after being raised, but since simulacrums don't have souls...

The Simulacrum spell makes no mention of soul-lessness. The 'soul' of any given creature is purely under GM purview to my knowledge.

As living breathing creatures Simulacrum of humsnoids could be resurrected by magic that doesnt require a body.

Mind you, the Incarnate Construct and Awaken line of spells grant life and/or sapience. Just because a spell did it doesnt make the act automatically soulless.

Now I think of it... I doubt many of the souls created (ahem) 'naturally' had creators who gained as much life experience as a spellcaster goes through to become capable of making spell-made life.

[Jack_Simth]

The Simulacrum spell makes no mention of soul-lessness. The 'soul' of any given creature is purely under GM purview to my knowledge. There's a couple of notes that say certain creatures have them... but for the most part, you're right; it's not clearly stated.

For an elemental or an outsider, the line is "does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit." - so they have a soul, it's just part of their body.
In Magic Jar, there's a note that says "Only sentient undead creatures have, or are, souls."

[Bronk]

The Simulacrum spell makes no mention of soul-lessness. The 'soul' of any given creature is purely under GM purview to my knowledge.

As living breathing creatures Simulacrum of humsnoids could be resurrected by magic that doesnt require a body.

Mind you, the Incarnate Construct and Awaken line of spells grant life and/or sapience. Just because a spell did it doesnt make the act automatically soulless.

Now I think of it... I doubt many of the souls created (ahem) 'naturally' had creators who gained as much life experience as a spellcaster goes through to become capable of making spell-made life.

Soullessness of simulacrums comes up in 'Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk', and where souls come from comes up in 'Bastion of Broken Souls'.

I think this came up in your thread last year:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?545142-Simulacrum-Resurrection

[unseenmage]

Soullessness of simulacrums comes up in 'Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk', and where souls come from comes up in 'Bastion of Broken Souls'.

I think this came up in your thread last year:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?545142-Simulacrum-Resurrection

Indeed it does, I had forgotten much of that. A lot of IRL life going on lately.
This thread itself was attempted whilst at work at night trying to remember bits from that other thread whilst also trying to stay awake.
So thanks for the reminder.

[Segev]

I go a bit further than just levels or skills, while not going as far as some of your examples below (some of which I wasn't sure were totally serious or for comedic effect.)
It's not exhaustive, but as a starting point I would say something like "no items, skills, levels, templates, or special abilities that aren't in the statblock of the thing you copied."

With that in mind:



Again, just clarifying my own interpretation, YMMV.

I'm a little more liberal than you are with what I'd allow, but yes, some of my examples were, if not for comedic effect, intended to be a reduction to absurdity. The point of which is to demonstrate the necessity of a line being drawn somewhere.

Since it's an illusion, I generally assume anything that happens to it is also illusory. Does it have a soul? Sure, an illusory one. That soul is no more "real" than any other illusion. Does it have a mind? It has the illusion of one. It is, essentially, a philosophical zombie. It will act in (nearly) all ways like it has its own mind and awareness, but I have determined a priori (because, as the DM, I can do that) that it's fake. (I don't suffer the limitation of real life where I can't be 'inside its head' and know whether there's a 'there' there.)

I'd probably allow it to gain the illusion of the Curse of Lycanthropy. Honestly, if the creator wants a werewolf, there's little stopping him from hunting the werewolf from which to make the simulacrum rather than hunting a werewolf to bite his pre-made simulacrum. He already has techniques for disguising things as other things if he needed to make Bob That Specific Mayoral Candidate look like he is a werewolf, for some reason.

I would let it prepare spells like a caster of its type. I would not let it gain levels, but the power it's exercising is the power to pray for spells or to study spells in a spellbook. It would, however, treat any spell not scribed into the spellbook by its original prior to its creation as "preparing from a borrowed spellbook," because it can't "learn" the new spells.

I'd let it pick up any weapon it has the physical capacity to pick up, and gain whatever benefits that grants. Again, it's not gaining more power; it's exercising existing power (to pick up that kind of weapon and use it).

There might come a point where I'd rule that performing external power-up procedures on it fails, but it would be somewhat subjective as I felt out what seemed like it would disrupt the illusion magic holding it together. I would also, as a DM, warn the player if I thought he was going into that range. If neither of us were sure if it was too over-the-top, I'd warn him that if I decide it is later, the magics start to fail and break apart and he could lose his simulacrum. If he's willing to experiment, he can take the risk. But I would warn him that it is a risk. (If I knew I wouldn't allow it, I'd probably either outright tell him or have him make a Spellcraft roll to know it, because I don't like being a jerk about these things.)

[Psyren]

I'm a little more liberal than you are with what I'd allow, but yes, some of my examples were, if not for comedic effect, intended to be a reduction to absurdity. The point of which is to demonstrate the necessity of a line being drawn somewhere.

I'm fine with that, and hopefully my own line is clearer now.



I'd probably allow it to gain the illusion of the Curse of Lycanthropy. Honestly, if the creator wants a werewolf, there's little stopping him from hunting the werewolf from which to make the simulacrum rather than hunting a werewolf to bite his pre-made simulacrum.

Not quite though. Simulacrum has an HD limit, as well as a cost associated with higher HD targets. Lycanthropy increases the target's HD, thus it's harder (and for some casters, may not even be possible) to duplicate a lycanthrope even when they are strong enough to duplicate the creature's base form. Your ruling would allow such a caster to do an end-run around simulacrum's restriction, and that is one reason I would not agree or allow it.



There might come a point where I'd rule that performing external power-up procedures on it fails, but it would be somewhat subjective as I felt out what seemed like it would disrupt the illusion magic holding it together. I would also, as a DM, warn the player if I thought he was going into that range. If neither of us were sure if it was too over-the-top, I'd warn him that if I decide it is later, the magics start to fail and break apart and he could lose his simulacrum. If he's willing to experiment, he can take the risk. But I would warn him that it is a risk. (If I knew I wouldn't allow it, I'd probably either outright tell him or have him make a Spellcraft roll to know it, because I don't like being a jerk about these things.)

This is perfectly reasonable; I think letting a player know what would and wouldn't work before they expended the resources making the thing is totally fine.

[Segev]

I'm fine with that, and hopefully my own line is clearer now.It is. And I appreciate it; you'd be amazed how hard it can be to get people to admit that there IS a line they draw, rather than it being somehow obvious that the words mean only one thing and there's thus no line of interpretation at all. Which means they'll never spell out what their full interpretation is, claiming it's obvious. ...I get frustrated with this.


Not quite though. Simulacrum has an HD limit, as well as a cost associated with higher HD targets. Lycanthropy increases the target's HD, thus it's harder (and for some casters, may not even be possible) to duplicate a lycanthrope even when they are strong enough to duplicate the creature's base form. Your ruling would allow such a caster to do an end-run around simulacrum's restriction, and that is one reason I would not agree or allow it.(emphasis added)

Ah, so it does! I'd forgotten that. I probably wouldn't allow lycanthropy to add HD. What'd probably happen is it'd gain the ability to look like it, and maybe use the natural weapons. Because, illusion. If I didn't just determine that the spell unraveled when it tried to exceed its HD with the first transformation.

[Florian]

A simulacrum is an ice/snow effigy of a thing, granted pseudo-life via shadow illusions.
It can´t learn, it can´t grow and when it gets damaged, it can´t heal unless the creator patches up the underlying ice/snow structure via a craft skill check.

Now unless there are vampiric/lycanthropic ice cubes floating around, I don't know how infection/conversion should work in that case.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

unless there are vampiric/lycanthropic ice cubes floating aroundDon't forget MC Hammer and Dr. Dre.

[Segev]

A simulacrum is an ice/snow effigy of a thing, granted pseudo-life via shadow illusions.
It can´t learn, it can´t grow and when it gets damaged, it can´t heal unless the creator patches up the underlying ice/snow structure via a craft skill check.

Now unless there are vampiric/lycanthropic ice cubes floating around, I don't know how infection/conversion should work in that case.

The answer here is that it can't, but the illusion can act like it did. It's an illusion. Everything it does is technically pretending to be something other than the shadow-stuff and snow and ice that it is.

[Psyren]

Don't forget MC Hammer and Dr. Dre.

Motherf- I mean, everybody wanna act like they forgot about Dre.


It is. And I appreciate it; you'd be amazed how hard it can be to get people to admit that there IS a line they draw, rather than it being somehow obvious that the words mean only one thing and there's thus no line of interpretation at all. Which means they'll never spell out what their full interpretation is, claiming it's obvious. ...I get frustrated with this.

Agreed.


(emphasis added)

Ah, so it does! I'd forgotten that. I probably wouldn't allow lycanthropy to add HD. What'd probably happen is it'd gain the ability to look like it, and maybe use the natural weapons. Because, illusion. If I didn't just determine that the spell unraveled when it tried to exceed its HD with the first transformation.

For me it would be binary. If you try to clone a lycanthrope and you're strong enough/have enough rubies, it works. If not, it fails, just like if you tried to clone a balor without the right requirements. If the player was trying to duplicate something with HD-adding templates that they weren't aware of (e.g. a lycanthrope in humanoid form, and for whatever reason they were only trying to clone the human, or they wanted the lycan but didn't know exactly how many HD the template added), I would probably give them a check to realize the mistake they were about to make. ("As you begin casting, you note that there is some kind of arcane interference. Make a Spellcraft check...")

Either way, the result getting additional templates would be a no-no for me as stated.

[ShurikVch]

Some notes about the subject:

Is there any RAW proof of necessity of a soul to get a vampirism or lycanthropy?
Because there is such thing as Kir-lanan (Races of Faerûn) - legitimate playable race; completely soulless; can only be brought back from the dead with a wish or miracle
Lycanthropy is "no" for them, because Monstrous Humanoids; but vampirism - why not?

And while it's body may melt instantly at 0 hp, RAW doesn't says what's will happen in case of instant death

Also, the savage progression (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a) for Vampire - you aren't even Undead until the 7th level

[Jack_Simth]

And while it's body may melt instantly at 0 hp, RAW doesn't says what's will happen in case of instant death

"If reduced to 0 hit points or otherwise destroyed..." so... yeah, it does.


Also, the savage progression (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a) for Vampire - you aren't even Undead until the 7th level
Taking the Savage Progression requires leveling up, which a simulacrum can't do.

[ShurikVch]

"If reduced to 0 hit points or otherwise destroyed..." so... yeah, it does.If truely destroyed - then yes
But what if the body is unharmed?

[Bronk]

Some notes about the subject:

Is there any RAW proof of necessity of a soul to get a vampirism or lycanthropy?
Because there is such thing as Kir-lanan (Races of Faerûn) - legitimate playable race; completely soulless; can only be brought back from the dead with a wish or miracle
Lycanthropy is "no" for them, because Monstrous Humanoids; but vampirism - why not?

And while it's body may melt instantly at 0 hp, RAW doesn't says what's will happen in case of instant death

Also, the savage progression (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a) for Vampire - you aren't even Undead until the 7th level


As far as I know, lycanthropy's link to the soul is just implied in the 'raise dead' spell, because the curse comes back when the soul comes back.

Vampires create new vampires by trapping the soul of the victim in it's former body, now animated by negative energy. (Complete Divine, page 126) Also, that probably indicates that a Kir-lanan can't be turned into a vampire. It looks like they're alive in the first place only due to the special circumstances of their creation.

I don't think a simulacrum or a kir-lanan would be able to become a vampire with the savage progression either, because they still have to be killed first, then come back, even though they only become fully undead later on.

[unseenmage]

...

Ah, so it does! I'd forgotten that. I probably wouldn't allow lycanthropy to add HD. What'd probably happen is it'd gain the ability to look like it, and maybe use the natural weapons. Because, illusion. If I didn't just determine that the spell unraveled when it tried to exceed its HD with the first transformation.

Do we have any RAW examples of templates only granting some of their benefits to a creature?

It was my assumption that templates apply all together or not at all.

[Jack_Simth]

If truely destroyed - then yes
But what if the body is unharmed?

a) ... then you're being way too picky on semantics.
b) ... then it wasn't killed by one of the methods a vampire uses to Create Spawn.
c) ... then anything that causes death also causes you to go to -10 (per the Dead condition), at which point the sim is below 1, at which point it's destroyed anyway.

[Psyren]

a) ... then you're being way too picky on semantics.
b) ... then it wasn't killed by one of the methods a vampire uses to Create Spawn.
c) ... then anything that causes death also causes you to go to -10 (per the Dead condition), at which point the sim is below 1, at which point it's destroyed anyway.

But -10 isn't zero! Clearly that means the body is fully intact.

[Florian]

But what if the body is unharmed?

What body? The block of ice and snow?

[unseenmage]

What body? The block of ice and snow?

IIRC the ice and snow 'body' is a material component. As no size is listed for the sculpture it could be a palm sized wad of snow that the caster moulds with their thumb as part of casting the spell.

[ShurikVch]

As far as I know, lycanthropy's link to the soul is just implied in the 'raise dead' spell, because the curse comes back when the soul comes back.Or lycanthropy may stay with the corpse - just doing nothing, because corpse


Vampires create new vampires by trapping the soul of the victim in it's former body, now animated by negative energy. (Complete Divine, page 126)Even if it's true, I still don't see a RAW which says something like "you're need a soul in order to be vamped"



a) ... then you're being way too picky on semantics.Note: the "destroyed" isn't a RAW term, so we're should be reasonable when we're using it
I hope you're wouldn't insist a Simulacrum should melt if it loses really badly in card game, chess match, or debates? :smallamused:


b) ... then it wasn't killed by one of the methods a vampire uses to Create Spawn.Create Spawn is the most famous, but the least useful way to create a Vampire (it makes Vampire Spawns most of the time)
Shrouds of the Unholy (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20021031x) is much more reliable way to make a Vampire out of a corpse
Also, Ghostwalk have such thing as Flesh of Orcus; whoever eats it should make Fort save or die and (if applicable) rise as a Vampire or Monstrous Vampire
Last, but not least: Shadow Sun Ninja, Balance of Light and Dark


c) ... then anything that causes death also causes you to go to -10 (per the Dead condition), at which point the sim is below 1, at which point it's destroyed anyway.Except RAW doesn't says "below 1" - it says "reduced to 0 hit points"; if we jumped over the 0 all the way to -10, then condition wasn't met



What body? The block of ice and snow?Note: "the rough snow or ice form" is the material component - thus, should be destroyed upon the cast of the spell
(I presume you're wouldn't insist the body of Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound is made of a "tiny silver whistle, a piece of bone, and a thread"?)
For all we're know, the body of a Simulacrum is just as fleshy (with bones, blood, etc) as the original (presuming the original have it all)

[Florian]

IIRC the ice and snow 'body' is a material component. As no size is listed for the sculpture it could be a palm sized wad of snow that the caster moulds with their thumb as part of casting the spell.

The material component is the body, cloaked by an illusion. That's why you have to repair the damage with a craft skill.

[Jack_Simth]

Note: the "destroyed" isn't a RAW term, so we're should be reasonable when we're using it

Except RAW doesn't says "below 1" - it says "reduced to 0 hit points"; if we jumped over the 0 all the way to -10, then condition wasn't met
... I'm going to let these two sit next to each other for a bit.

[Bronk]

Or lycanthropy may stay with the corpse - just doing nothing, because corpse

Curses also come back when brought back with 'True Resurrection', which gives you a new body.


Even if it's true, I still don't see a RAW which says something like "you're need a soul in order to be vamped"

That was the raw... their process needs a soul.


Shrouds of the Unholy[/URL] is much more reliable way to make a Vampire out of a corpse
Also, Ghostwalk have such thing as Flesh of Orcus; whoever eats it should make Fort save or die and (if applicable) rise as a Vampire or Monstrous Vampire
Last, but not least: Shadow Sun Ninja, Balance of Light and Dark

Interesting... Those could work for the Kir-lanans, but I think the circumstances surrounding the destruction of simulacrums would still prevent them from being turned.



Except RAW doesn't says "below 1" - it says "reduced to 0 hit points"; if we jumped over the 0 all the way to -10, then condition wasn't met

It also says 'or otherwise destroyed' though.



Note: "the rough snow or ice form" is the material component - thus, should be destroyed upon the cast of the spell
(I presume you're wouldn't insist the body of Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound is made of a "tiny silver whistle, a piece of bone, and a thread"?)
For all we're know, the body of a Simulacrum is just as fleshy (with bones, blood, etc) as the original (presuming the original have it all)

It probably does appear to be fleshy! Probably a true seeing spell would detect a body made of ice and snow, but it doesn't need to match the original sculpture. Then, when it dies, it 'reverts' back to ice, then instantly melts away to nothingness... that must look really weird, like, 'Did I just see a snowman there for a second? Why didn't it leave a puddle?'

[Psyren]

... I'm going to let these two sit next to each other for a bit.

I predicted it, but still can't believe he went for it. Blue text and all.

[ShurikVch]

Curses also come back when brought back with 'True Resurrection', which gives you a new body.Not so much "a new body", as "the old body, which was repaired really really well"
The spell which truly "gives you a new body" is Reincarnate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm).
And guess what - it's have no clause for magical diseases and curses! :smallwink:


That was the raw... their process needs a soul.That alleged "RAW" is questionable, but even sticking to it - I still unconvinced: even if Vampire's soul is really trapped in the body (Shadow Sun Ninja kinda contradicts it) - how, exactly, it prevents soulless creature from being vamped?


It also says 'or otherwise destroyed' though.Look - it's strongly depend on cause of "instant death":
If it's from such effects as Implosion, Destruction, Gutwrench, or Intellect Bomb; roll "01-10" on the Warp Touch table; implementation of Profession (executioner) skill; or just simple Massive Damage - then OK, 'destroyed' there is completely justified
If it's something less destructive - such as Assassin's Death Attack - then it already becomes more questionable: is that little poke with a shiv really ruined body that badly?
And, finally, methods which are should leave the body completely intact: instant death poisons, suffocation, Power Word Kill, Phantasmal Killer, Finger of Death, Death domain granted power - while they're certainly would kill the Sim, the 'destroyed' (IMHO) is kinda too strong word there


I predicted it, but still can't believe he went for it. Blue text and all.Please, let me give you little example:
There is a 1st-level Drow Warrior (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm); he have Str and Dex 13
Now, Mohrg (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/mohrg.htm) licked him, and he didn't saved
Being paralyzed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#paralyzed), his Str and Dex is now 0But it doesn't mean the Drow's Str and Dex, before becoming zeroes, were also 12, 11, 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, and 1
Correct?
If yes - then explain me: how it's different from the 'instant death' "-10 hp" clause?

[Segev]

Do we have any RAW examples of templates only granting some of their benefits to a creature?

It was my assumption that templates apply all together or not at all.

None at all! I was discussing what I might do, because it's an illusion. It depends whether it's more important that it behave in an illusory fashion as if it were the real thing, or that it be strictly treated as mechanically a creature.

[Bronk]

Not so much "a new body", as "the old body, which was repaired really really well"
The spell which truly "gives you a new body" is Reincarnate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm).
And guess what - it's have no clause for magical diseases and curses! :smallwink:[/LIST]


From True Resurrection:

"This spell can even bring back creatures whose bodies have been destroyed, provided that you unambiguously identify the deceased in some fashion (reciting the deceased’s time and place of birth or death is the most common method)."

No body needed.



That alleged "RAW" is questionable, but even sticking to it - I still unconvinced: even if Vampire's soul is really trapped in the body (Shadow Sun Ninja kinda contradicts it) - how, exactly, it prevents soulless creature from being vamped?

Because it sets the default method and circumstances for becoming a vampire. Those other methods, including the Shadow Sun Ninja ability, would be exceptions, at least for creatures that don't disappear when they die.



Look - it's strongly depend on cause of "instant death":[/LIST]


Instant death isn't part of the simulacrum spell. Simulacrums are susceptible to anything the original was, so being killed... kills them, and they cease to be.

[ShurikVch]

Firstly - very important note: the Simulacrum (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/simulacrum.htm) is a very very poorly-written spell.
It doesn't answering a whole lot of relatively obvious questions:
What is the Simulacrum? Is it a living creature or just a walking ice statue under disguise?
What type of creature it really is?
Does it need to eat, drink, breath, or sleep?
Is it able to procreation?
Will it - with enough time - grow old, and, eventually, die?
And there may be lots and lots more possible questions.

For example: what, exactly, will see creature with True Seeing effect, when look at the Simulacrum? Ice statue? Something else? Or, maybe, True Seeing - for a change - doesn't help there, and Simulacrum can't be discerned that way?

Why the heck we're, supposedly, need "fully equipped magical laboratory" to repair it's damage? Wouldn't it be much more simple to just polymorph it into something with fast healing? (Or, for that matter, use ordinary healing spells - RAW doesn't says they aren't working on Simulacri)

Among the same questions is my "dead by instant death" example - WotC, with their linear Fighter-oriented thinking, just never thought about the possibility of Simulacrum to reach -10 hp without reaching 0


From True Resurrection:

"This spell can even bring back creatures whose bodies have been destroyed, provided that you unambiguously identify the deceased in some fashion (reciting the deceased’s time and place of birth or death is the most common method)."

No body needed.Firstly - True Resurrection is a touch-range spell; if you aren't touching the body, it's out of range and you can't cast it! :smallbiggrin:
But that dysfunction aside - even if you don't have the body at hand, it's certainly exists somewhere (because matter doesn't disappear). So, when you're casting True Resurrection, it gathers atoms of former body across the world and rebuilds the body from them


Because it sets the default method and circumstances for becoming a vampire. Those other methods, including the Shadow Sun Ninja ability, would be exceptions, at least for creatures that don't disappear when they die.Please, excuse me, but I still don't seeing how it prevents existence of soulless vampires.
Vampire's soul is trapped in the body...
Yes. And?..
Where it says you're need a soul?

For example: Book of Vile Darkness have Imprison Soul spell:
Imprison Soul. Traps soul in a small object, and victim takes 1d4 Con damage per day.So, what's will happen if, after the spell was successfully cast, but before the victim dies from that daily 1d4 Con damage, some vampire will walk in and drain to the death?
Will our victim turn into vampire, if the soul is still in the receptacle?
If not - prove it.

[Jack_Simth]

I predicted it, but still can't believe he went for it. Blue text and all.
I was specifically referring to the contradiction in that instance
In one post, he's got a statement that we should be "reasonable" when we're using destroyed
In the same post: skipping straight to -10 by gaining the "dead" condition doesn't meet the criteria of destroyed.

But... yeah, pretty much.

[unseenmage]

Assuming the Simulacrum can become a lycanthrope...

We use two pieces of the same npc to make Sims.
The first piece is from before the npc was werewolved.
The second piece is from after.

Do we get two lycanthtopes? A human and a lycanthrope?
A DMG thrown at us?

[Florian]

A DMG thrown at us?

That.

We already have a certain problem with the spell, because we know that we must rebuild the critter at half HD and power, but there's no guideline how to handle that.

So, for a Human (Werewolf) Ranger 10 mit 2 Wolf HD, how to proceed? Do we get 5/1 or 4/2 and does the werewolf template still work when it only has 1 Wolf HD? Is it a werepuppy then?

[ShurikVch]

I was specifically referring to the contradiction in that instance
In one post, he's got a statement that we should be "reasonable" when we're using destroyed
In the same post: skipping straight to -10 by gaining the "dead" condition doesn't meet the criteria of destroyed.In the game, term "destroyed" - despite not being in the glossary (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=&alpha=) - is usually implemented to describe the demise of creatures with "Con -"
Thus, creatures with Con are dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#dead); creatures without Con are destroyed
Creatures which could be dead are couldn't be destroyed, and vice versa
Even the Destruction (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/destruction.htm) spell - which is, by its very name, should "destroy" things - in truth, merely kills living creatures and "consumes" their remains
Unless all Simulacri are secretly Undead (or Constructs without the Living subtype), "destroyed" is clearly inapplicable to them

[Bronk]

Firstly - very important note: the Simulacrum (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/simulacrum.htm) is a very very poorly-written spell.


No doubt about that!




It doesn't answering a whole lot of relatively obvious questions:
What is the Simulacrum? Is it a living creature or just a walking ice statue under disguise?
What type of creature it really is?
Does it need to eat, drink, breath, or sleep?
Is it able to procreation?
Will it - with enough time - grow old, and, eventually, die?
And there may be lots and lots more possible questions.

For example: what, exactly, will see creature with True Seeing effect, when look at the Simulacrum? Ice statue? Something else? Or, maybe, True Seeing - for a change - doesn't help there, and Simulacrum can't be discerned that way?

Why the heck we're, supposedly, need "fully equipped magical laboratory" to repair it's damage? Wouldn't it be much more simple to just polymorph it into something with fast healing? (Or, for that matter, use ordinary healing spells - RAW doesn't says they aren't working on Simulacri)

Among the same questions is my "dead by instant death" example - WotC, with their linear Fighter-oriented thinking, just never thought about the possibility of Simulacrum to reach -10 hp without reaching 0

I'd say:

It's a spell effect.

It does need to eat, drink, breathe, and sleep, as much as whatever it's mimicking does.

Procreation... I'd say no, because it's just an illusion.

Grow old: I'd say no, because it's an instantaneous spell effect.

I'd say a true seeing effect would show some sort of snow/ice statue, because that's what it 'reverts' to when destroyed.

For the magical laboratory: Maybe that's just to help arcanists, who don't usually have healing spells on their list, but in my games, I treat the simulacrum as if it were a consruct, so it needs to either be healed this way or with a repair spell.

I agree that they were way too specific when they listed out ways to kill the simulacrum, but I'm pretty sure the 'or otherwise destroyed' line was just supposed to be a straight up English language catchall statement.



Firstly - True Resurrection is a touch-range spell; if you aren't touching the body, it's out of range and you can't cast it! :smallbiggrin:
But that dysfunction aside - even if you don't have the body at hand, it's certainly exists somewhere (because matter doesn't disappear). So, when you're casting True Resurrection, it gathers atoms of former body across the world and rebuilds the body from them


Raise Dead is a touch spell, but range isn't listed for True Res... it just says it works as raise dead, except for a list of exceptions, and not needing a body is one of them. The new body is made with magic... it doesn't need to reverse entropy and steal atoms from the universe.




Firstly - True Resurrection is a touch-range spell; if you aren't touching the body, it's out of range and you can't cast it! :smallbiggrin:
But that dysfunction aside - even if you don't have the body at hand, it's certainly exists somewhere (because matter doesn't disappear). So, when you're casting True Resurrection, it gathers atoms of former body across the world and rebuilds the body from them

Please, excuse me, but I still don't seeing how it prevents existence of soulless vampires.
Vampire's soul is trapped in the body...
Yes. And?..
Where it says you're need a soul?

I assumed you'd eventually read the page in question... it says they create spawn by trapping the soul. No soul to trap, no raising as a vampire. It did sound like the methods that used those other magic items might work though.



For example: Book of Vile Darkness have Imprison Soul spell:So, what's will happen if, after the spell was successfully cast, but before the victim dies from that daily 1d4 Con damage, some vampire will walk in and drain to the death?
Will our victim turn into vampire, if the soul is still in the receptacle?
If not - prove it.

It works the other way too... you also wouldn't be able to use 'Trap the Soul' on a Kir-lanan... no soul to trap!

[ShurikVch]

I'd say:

It's a spell effect.Which, actually, doesn't says us much - because nowhere is said being "a spell effect" and a "creature" is mutually exclusive
Let's look at the Summon Monster I (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonMonsterI.htm) and Summon Nature’s Ally I (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonNaturesAllyI.htm); what's we're seeing there?
Effect: One summoned creatureSee?
It's "Effect" of a spell; but also - it's a "creature"


For the magical laboratory: Maybe that's just to help arcanists, who don't usually have healing spells on their listYes; but Polymorph (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm) - as I already pointed - is a relatively simple and cheap way to get temporary Fast Healing; why even start this all magical laboratory stuff?
(I mean - unless the Transmutation is a prohibited school)


Raise Dead is a touch spell, but range isn't listed for True Res... it just says it works as raise dead, except for a list of exceptions, and not needing a body is one of them... , but change of the spell's Range - isn't.
Presumably, you should touch a soul, or something like that.
It's a well-known dysfunction.


The new body is made with magic... it doesn't need to reverse entropy and steal atoms from the universe.Let's remind you: I already pointed to the one spell which truly creates a legitimate new body - Reincarnate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm); no curses or magical diseases are carrying over
Now we're looking at the True Resurrection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueResurrection.htm):
just like the Reincarnate, it uses the creature's soul, and recreates a body
unlike the Reincarnate, it doesn't says this body is a new body
this body got all wear and tear of the (possible) old age, all templates (except certain Undead-, Construct-, or - sometimes - Plant-related ones - such as from the Yellow Musk), and all due curses and magical diseases
even more - True Resurrection is fatally incapable to resurrect somebody whose corpse was turned into a Skeleton or Zombie, until it will be (eventually) destroyed - despite we're know: no soul included in the process of creating mindless UndeadSo, once more: does True Resurrection really creates a new body, or does it just fix the damage of the "old flesh" really well?

[Bronk]

Which, actually, doesn't says us much - because nowhere is said being "a spell effect" and a "creature" is mutually exclusive
Let's look at the Summon Monster I (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonMonsterI.htm) and Summon Nature’s Ally I (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonNaturesAllyI.htm); what's we're seeing there?See?
It's "Effect" of a spell; but also - it's a "creature"


Well, in this case, it's a creature that's also a soulless but sentient walking illusion over a lump of ice and snow that reacts in most ways as the original creature.



Yes; but Polymorph (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm) - as I already pointed - is a relatively simple and cheap way to get temporary Fast Healing; why even start this all magical laboratory stuff?
(I mean - unless the Transmutation is a prohibited school)


You'd think so, but by calling out the ways that healing works, it implies that other methods don't work.



... , but change of the spell's Range - isn't.
Presumably, you should touch a soul, or something like that.
It's a well-known dysfunction.

The spell's range change is covered under the exception.




Let's remind you: I already pointed to the one spell which truly creates a legitimate new body - Reincarnate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm); no curses or magical diseases are carrying over


Take a look again... it only says that physical ills and afflictions are repaired, not magical ills and afflictions, and a curse is a magical affliction.



Now we're looking at the True Resurrection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueResurrection.htm):
just like the Reincarnate, it uses the creature's soul, and recreates a body
unlike the Reincarnate, it doesn't says this body is a new body
this body got all wear and tear of the (possible) old age, all templates (except certain Undead-, Construct-, or - sometimes - Plant-related ones - such as from the Yellow Musk), and all due curses and magical diseases
even more - True Resurrection is fatally incapable to resurrect somebody whose corpse was turned into a Skeleton or Zombie, until it will be (eventually) destroyed - despite we're know: no soul included in the process of creating mindless UndeadSo, once more: does True Resurrection really creates a new body, or does it just fix the damage of the "old flesh" really well?

If the old body is destroyed, or you don't have the body, you can identify the one you want to resurrect and get a new body. It doesn't say the old body comes back, and it doesn't say that the remains of the old body disappear either. That makes it a new body.

Its a 'Conjuration (healing)' spell, not a calling spell or some kind of uber telekinesis.

[ShurikVch]

You'd think so, but by calling out the ways that healing works, it implies that other methods don't work.While it may, indeed, "imply" it - as long as it doesn't says it directly - it doesn't count
(by the RAW, not by the RAI, RACSD, and so on)


The spell's range change is covered under the exception.Changed - how?
As I can see - whole spell text is totally lacking the very "Range" word, but refers to Raise Dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/raiseDead.htm)... Which is a "Range: Touch"!


Take a look again... it only says that physical ills and afflictions are repaired, not magical ills and afflictions, and a curse is a magical affliction.Since Raise Dead explicitly called out the "magical diseases and curses", and Reincarnate - doesn't, I don't see why they're should remain
Or do you really expecting a humanoid, who's in life suffered from the Beetle Rot infection, but died before it turned him into Rancid Beetle Zombie, and was reincarnated from, for example, some bloodstain - would be still suffer from the very same Beetle Rot?


Its a 'Conjuration (healing)' spell, not a calling spell or some kind of uber telekinesis.Let me remind you: Conjuration school also have such spells as Gate and Greater Teleport :smallwink:

[Asmotherion]

Magic is Unpredictable.

Shadow Magic is even more Unpredictable and Unstable.

I'd argue to treat it as per the Shadow Conjuration Effects for each Simulacrum separatelly, to see if it happens or not. Roll a d100, with a 20percent chance of success. On a Failure to turn, it is destoyed instead. Otherwise, it gains the Template.

Seems fair?

[Bronk]

While it may, indeed, "imply" it - as long as it doesn't says it directly - it doesn't count
(by the RAW, not by the RAI, RACSD, and so on)

I lists out what works, not what doesn't work.



Changed - how?
As I can see - whole spell text is totally lacking the very "Range" word, but refers to Raise Dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/raiseDead.htm)... Which is a "Range: Touch"!

As you can also see, it plainly says what works.



Since Raise Dead explicitly called out the "magical diseases and curses", and Reincarnate - doesn't, I don't see why they're should remain
Or do you really expecting a humanoid, who's in life suffered from the Beetle Rot infection, but died before it turned him into Rancid Beetle Zombie, and was reincarnated from, for example, some bloodstain - would be still suffer from the very same Beetle Rot?

If it's magical, then yes.



Let me remind you: Conjuration school also have such spells as Gate and Greater Teleport :smallwink:

Well, there you go. Those are Conjuration (creation or calling) and Conjuration (teleportation), respectively... not healing.