Epic level Warblade, need feat suggestions

[Jarmen4u]

I'm currently playing a Warblade 20/Bloodstorm Blade 9, with all my 21-30 feat slots taken up by the Ragnarok Blade epic destiny. I have yet to decide the 3 bonus feats granted from BSB, and need some guidance on that front. This character has most of the goods for a ubercharger build, modified a bit for utility. I'll link my sheet below in case anyone wants more info.

Feats:
Human: Faerie Mysteries Initiate
1st - Keen Intellect
3rd - Power Attack
6th - Improved Bull Rush
9th - Leap Attack
12th - Shock Trooper
15th - Robilar's Gambit
18th - Point Blank Shot
21st - 30th - Epic Destiny (Blade of Ragnarok)
WB 5 - Combat Reflexes
WB 9 - Ironheart Aura
WB 13 - Blind-Fight
WB 17 - Stormguard Warrior

Sheet: [x (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1330036)]

I was thinking about Cleave as one of them, though I don't know how often that'd be useful, or if I'd want to go into Great Cleave or something to that effect. Thoughts?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I'm currently playing a Warblade 20/Bloodstorm Blade 9, with all my 21-30 feat slots taken up by the Ragnarok Blade epic destiny. I have yet to decide the 3 bonus feats granted from BSB, and need some guidance on that front. This character has most of the goods for a ubercharger build, modified a bit for utility. I'll link my sheet below in case anyone wants more info.

Feats:
Human: Faerie Mysteries Initiate
1st - Keen Intellect
3rd - Power Attack
6th - Improved Bull Rush
9th - Leap Attack
12th - Shock Trooper
15th - Robilar's Gambit
18th - Point Blank Shot
21st - 30th - Epic Destiny (Blade of Ragnarok)
WB 5 - Combat Reflexes
WB 9 - Ironheart Aura
WB 13 - Blind-Fight
WB 17 - Stormguard Warrior

Sheet: [x (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1330036)]

I was thinking about Cleave as one of them, though I don't know how often that'd be useful, or if I'd want to go into Great Cleave or something to that effect. Thoughts?Do you want to go into any other PrCs? Maybe try for some fast-progression casting, such as sublime chord 2/jade phoenix mage? If so, switch your feats around as needed and use the spares for class entry.

[heavyfuel]

Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Weapon Mastery?

That's +3 to attack and +4 damage. Not great, but +3 to attack is approximately 30% more damage.

[Jarmen4u]

Do you want to go into any other PrCs? Maybe try for some fast-progression casting, such as sublime chord 2/jade phoenix mage? If so, switch your feats around as needed and use the spares for class entry.

I'm not really sure where I want to take this guy from here, though he doesn't really feel like the caster type. I should point out, this is a character I'm CURRENTLY playing, so for the most part, the feats that are already chosen can't be switched out. If you have any PrCs to suggest after I cap out BSB at 10, I'd love to hear them.


Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Weapon Mastery?

That's +3 to attack and +4 damage. Not great, but +3 to attack is approximately 30% more damage.

I could, but tbh only the to-hit would benefit me at all since I'm usually doing stupid amounts of damage via combat rhythm+avalanche of blades->belt of battle->time stands still, and even then it wouldn't help that much (especially since Slayer's Fury gives me +20 to hit for a full round).

[ManicOppressive]

Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Weapon Mastery?

That's +3 to attack and +4 damage. Not great, but +3 to attack is approximately 30% more damage.

They're good feats, but the increase is more like 15% unless I'm having a total brain fart.

+3 to attack, assuming required roll for hit for an enemy falls between 3 and 18 (which it almost always should assuming the game balance is functioning anything like well) will cause an additional 3 out of 20 total results to be successful compared to the normal, for a 15 percentage point increase in the chance to hit.

As for OP, I don't know what your maneuver/stance list looks like but going Martial Study/Martial Stance: Devoted Spirit could get you Thicket of Blades to double down on AoO as a secondary attack strategy. Obviously this doesn't work if your build is absolutely reliant on a couple of stances already.

[heavyfuel]

They're good feats, but the increase is more like 15% unless I'm having a total brain fart.

It's 15% extra chance to hit, but the average damage increases by ~30%. I don't really understand the math behind it, but you can see this is true in an excel spreadsheet

Assuming he preciously hit on a 10 and now hits on a 7, and deals 100 damage everytime he hits

https://imgur.com/a/nxjkHJD

https://imgur.com/a/nxjkHJD

Average damage per attack jumped from 55 to 70, which is just shy of a 30% increase.
Of course, the percentage will go up the harder it is to hit the enemy, and down the easier it is to hit them.

[martixy]

Neat character. Always wanted to use epic destinies in a game.

At this point... well, really at the point you reached epic where the regular rules fly out the window... see if your DM is open to a bit of homebrew.

Namely these:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?95516-Epic-Martial-Adept-Progressions-and-Feats
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?95435-9-Martial-Discipline-Epic-Feats

[ExLibrisMortis]

How about some meldshaping? With just two feats, you can obtain the swarm subtype, while remaining your usual size and space, which is just hilarious (Dragon #350, page 86).



[...] +3 to attack is approximately 30% more damage.
It... really isn't. I mean, it can be, in certain situations, but it's wildly inaccurate to say that in general.

At best, +3 attack gives you 15% percent points of your weapon's damage on a given hit, which might be as much as a quadrupling the total for that hit (if you would otherwise just barely miss on a 19). On the other hand, +3 attack on an attack that already hits on a 2 is completely wasted. The first scenario might occur on your later iteratives, the second on your first attack.

If your second attack hits on a 2 (that is, you have a ton of extra attack bonus), your first two attacks gain nothing from +3 attack, and the gain is just under 10% total full attack damage.

If your first attack hits on an 11 (that is, you don't have a lot of attack bonus), your last attack would--even with +3 attack--still only ever hit on a 20, and the gain is almost 18%.

The range in which +3 affects adds 15% percent points to all four iterative attacks is quite narrow: your first attack must hit on a 5, which means your last attack misses on a 19. In that case, +3 attack lets your first attack hit on a 2, and your expected damage goes up from 170% to 230% of a single hit's damage, a gain of just over 35%.

In short: Attack bonus is more valuable if you can affect multiple attacks which are 'up to the dice'. The gains of a single point of attack can be quite big, but it's rare to get the full benefit. Optimized melee should be hitting on their first 2-3 attacks anyway (first attack, haste attack, first iterative).

[Jarmen4u]

They're good feats, but the increase is more like 15% unless I'm having a total brain fart.

+3 to attack, assuming required roll for hit for an enemy falls between 3 and 18 (which it almost always should assuming the game balance is functioning anything like well) will cause an additional 3 out of 20 total results to be successful compared to the normal, for a 15 percentage point increase in the chance to hit.

As for OP, I don't know what your maneuver/stance list looks like but going Martial Study/Martial Stance: Devoted Spirit could get you Thicket of Blades to double down on AoO as a secondary attack strategy. Obviously this doesn't work if your build is absolutely reliant on a couple of stances already.

For the info on my stances/maneuvers, I linked my sheet in the OP, and they're listed under the "spells" section. Thicket of Blades isn't a terrible idea, though.

The reason I'm not too inclined to take WF is the math behind my character: 29 BAB, +12 from str, +2 misc, first attack starts at +43. Combat Rhythm (from Stormguard Warrior feat) allows me to forgo dealing damage in order to hit touch AC, and each successful hit grants +5 bonus to damage in the next round. Avalanche of Blades maneuver allows me to make a full attack, starting at full BAB, with each successive attack at a cumulative -4, where I can continue to make attacks until I miss. Slayer's Fury, from Blade of Ragnarok epic destiny, grants me +20 to-hit for a full round, as well as the ability to reroll any 1s. This all together gives me +63 to hit vs touch AC starting off, with -4 off each attack until I miss (last big enemy I fought, I hit 19 times before missing). 19x5 = 95 bonus damage per hit next round. Next round, I use Slayer's Fury again (can only use twice a day), use Time Stands Still maneuver for 2 full attacks, then if I feel the need, I can use belt of battle to get a 3rd full attack action. This totals 12 attacks, which almost always hit (with the lowest of the 4 attacks hitting at +48), each hit dealing 3d6(or 5d6 if the creature is Large+) +4, +18 from Str, any from power attack, and 95 from last round, all coming together for 57(or)95d6+1404 damage, not including PA, which can penetrate almost any DR (thanks to my Epic Destiny). Usually, this is comparable to an Ubercharge, but I like this method as it's a bit flashier, and I really like rolling all those d20s.

So based on that, a +3 to-hit doesn't really do as much for me as it might for others. At least, that's my opinion. Maybe I'm wrong?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Your character could suddenly unlock some of his physical and spiritual potential, and you could go for some psionics. Take Track and go for some psion/slayer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/slayer.htm)? Take Supernatural Transformation (Psionics) to boost your manifester level to your HD and to prevent AoOs and such. Focus on utility powers early on, things that will always be handy, such as psionic minor creation (which is especially useful with the Linked Power feat to reduce manifesting times). Your ML will be 30+, so you'll be able to create a ton of matter for a very long time for just 1 pp (or 2, with Linked Power and a power with a low manifesting time). 30+ cubic feet of plant material can get you a lot of bang for your buck, after all. Synchronicity and other psionic action economy boosters will give you a huge leg up when it comes to action economy, acting as a major force multiplier for your standard action strikes.

Slayer in particular gets you a lot of really nice abilities -- especially the selective mind blank ability at the end, which will be hugely handy in epic.

You don't have to go with psi fluff if you don't want it. Call it unlocking your spiritual potential, or something, if you want. Or maybe you've got some fey, dragon, magical beast, or outsider way back in your family tree, and you're starting to tap into that well of power within yourself.

[Jarmen4u]

Your character could suddenly unlock some of his physical and spiritual potential, and you could go for some psionics. Take Track and go for some psion/slayer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/slayer.htm)? Take Supernatural Transformation (Psionics) to boost your manifester level to your HD and to prevent AoOs and such. Focus on utility powers early on, things that will always be handy, such as psionic minor creation (which is especially useful with the Linked Power feat to reduce manifesting times). Your ML will be 30+, so you'll be able to create a ton of matter for a very long time for just 1 pp (or 2, with Linked Power and a power with a low manifesting time). 30+ cubic feet of plant material can get you a lot of bang for your buck, after all. Synchronicity and other psionic action economy boosters will give you a huge leg up when it comes to action economy, acting as a major force multiplier for your standard action strikes.

Slayer in particular gets you a lot of really nice abilities -- especially the selective mind blank ability at the end, which will be hugely handy in epic.

You don't have to go with psi fluff if you don't want it. Call it unlocking your spiritual potential, or something, if you want. Or maybe you've got some fey, dragon, magical beast, or outsider way back in your family tree, and you're starting to tap into that well of power within yourself.

The psionics side isn't a bad idea, though the DM loves psionics as his little trump card that players can rarely use, so I'll have to ask him if I can use psionics for that.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The psionics side isn't a bad idea, though the DM loves psionics as his little trump card that players can rarely use, so I'll have to ask him if I can use psionics for that.Ask him to fluff it as more of a spell-point sorcerous racial SLA system. It works exactly the same, but it's racially-based magic now, like how sorcerers and older dragons normally have it.

[ManicOppressive]

It's 15% extra chance to hit, but the average damage increases by ~30%. I don't really understand the math behind it, but you can see this is true in an excel spreadsheet

Assuming he preciously hit on a 10 and now hits on a 7, and deals 100 damage everytime he hits

https://imgur.com/a/nxjkHJD

https://imgur.com/a/nxjkHJD

Average damage per attack jumped from 55 to 70, which is just shy of a 30% increase.
Of course, the percentage will go up the harder it is to hit the enemy, and down the easier it is to hit them.

That's assuming the enemy is hit naturally on a ten, which is an invalid assumption even for averages because there's no rule that says enemies' AC will be a bell curve off of any specific character's to-hit. The average damage can be increased anywhere from 0%-600% depending on the initial roll required to hit the enemy.

I know this seems like splitting hairs, but it's the difference between relying on a dependent or an independent value, which is very important in terms of statistics.

[Eldariel]

They're good feats, but the increase is more like 15% unless I'm having a total brain fart.

+3 to attack, assuming required roll for hit for an enemy falls between 3 and 18 (which it almost always should assuming the game balance is functioning anything like well) will cause an additional 3 out of 20 total results to be successful compared to the normal, for a 15 percentage point increase in the chance to hit.

Eh, we're talking about epic here though. The numbers can vary wildly already pre-epic but in epic we're on a whole other ballpark of variance. The guy who doesn't bother investing in more than basic AC might still have an AC of 20-30 while people who put in the effort can be looking at 100+, let alone monsters with their absurd natural armor values and such. It's not so much the math not working as the "good scalers" and "bad scalers" being all over the map this high far as AC goes.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

How about Snap Kick, Knockdown, and Knock-Back? Combine with a level in monk, a few levels in dungeoncrasher fighter, and some unarmed strike optimization (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15474863#post15474863), and...

[Efrate]

Create epic maneuvers? Work with your dm. You are epic, get some appropriate abilities. Sundering wall of force, disjunction on hit, revive allies with a strike, reaving dispel on all attacks as a stance. You are epic. Gloves are off. Go big or go home, or you won't be able to keep up.

The infinite deflection line of epic feats with a bit of modification can be fun. As a bloodstorm blade you can throw anything, so catch everything and fire it back. Throw those scorching rays back with your bonuses.

One of the many issues with epic is if you are not a core class you are very poorly supported, and epic in general requires homebrew to keep going.

If your damage is consistently in 3 or 4 digits as an ubercharger, consider defensive options.

[Jarmen4u]

Create epic maneuvers? Work with your dm. You are epic, get some appropriate abilities. Sundering wall of force, disjunction on hit, revive allies with a strike, reaving dispel on all attacks as a stance. You are epic. Gloves are off. Go big or go home, or you won't be able to keep up.

The infinite deflection line of epic feats with a bit of modification can be fun. As a bloodstorm blade you can throw anything, so catch everything and fire it back. Throw those scorching rays back with your bonuses.

One of the many issues with epic is if you are not a core class you are very poorly supported, and epic in general requires homebrew to keep going.

If your damage is consistently in 3 or 4 digits as an ubercharger, consider defensive options.

Just because that sounds really interesting, what would give me the ability to specifically catch ray attacks to throw them away? Deflect Arrows only works on nonmagical missiles, and Throw Anything is for melee weapons, so I'm not sure where that comes from.

My DM already gets annoyed by some of the current maneuvers I can do (see spoiler post above), so I don't know how eager he'd be to let me make stronger maneuvers. On a sidenote though, I was considering taking a level in barbarian after finishing BSB 10 so I could get pounce, since I currently have to use a maneuver to get that.

[Eldariel]

Just because that sounds really interesting, what would give me the ability to specifically catch ray attacks to throw them away? Deflect Arrows only works on nonmagical missiles, and Throw Anything is for melee weapons, so I'm not sure where that comes from.

Wall of Blades works and there's also Exceptional Deflection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#exceptionalDeflection) plus Infinite Deflection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#infiniteDeflection).¨

[Jarmen4u]

Wall of Blades works and there's also Exceptional Deflection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#exceptionalDeflection) plus Infinite Deflection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#infiniteDeflection).¨

Damn, that's really nice. Unfortunately neither my Dex nor Wis scores are high enough to take those, but I'll definitely bookmark them for another character.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Damn, that's really nice. Unfortunately neither my Dex nor Wis scores are high enough to take those, but I'll definitely bookmark them for another character.A level or two in martial monk to skive out on feat prereqs?

[DarkSoul]

There's also an armed deflection epic feat that lets you deflect arrows with your weapon, in addition to counting as IAS and deflect arrows for meeting feat prerequisites.

[Jarmen4u]

There's also an armed deflection epic feat that lets you deflect arrows with your weapon, in addition to counting as IAS and deflect arrows for meeting feat prerequisites.

I'll be adding that to the pile from the previous post. These Wis requirements are killing me though... I doubt I'll be able to find a +6 wis tome that the cleric won't fight me over.

[martixy]

I'll be adding that to the pile from the previous post. These Wis requirements are killing me though... I doubt I'll be able to find a +6 wis tome that the cleric won't fight me over.

No acknowledgement of anything I said?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I would personally prefer replacing Warblade 20 with Warblade 1/ Fighter 9/ Warblade 9/ Fighter 1 in that order, using Zhentarim Soldier (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a), Dungeoncrasher, and Dead Levels (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a) for Fighter. Take Imperious Command in DotU and you can swift-action demoralize an opponent and make them spend a turn cowering every round. That 10th Fighter level's bonus feat can be used to get Weapon Supremacy in PH2, and the three Fighter bonus feats prior to that can help you get the prerequisites for it.

For a level 29 character, you can go Warblade 1/ Fighter 9/ Bloodstorm Blade 9/ Fighter 1/ Warblade 9 and still get 9th level maneuvers and stances. You'll have five fewer maneuvers known and two fewer readied, plus one fewer stance known, compared to a build with Warblade 20. However, you'll have about the same number of higher level maneuvers and stances compared to a Warblade 20 due to the nine extra initiator levels prior to the 2nd-10th Warblade levels.

Dungeoncrasher is superb with the feat Knock Back in RoS, you can get Enlarge Person + Permanency or use one of many other methods to become large size to qualify for that. It's especially good if you're flying over opponents and bull rush them into the ground to deal Dungeoncrasher damage on every attack.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Dungeoncrasher is superb with the feat Knock Back in RoS, you can get Enlarge Person + Permanency or use one of many other methods to become large size to qualify for that. It's especially good if you're flying over opponents and bull rush them into the ground to deal Dungeoncrasher damage on every attack.I'd much rather use a Words of Creation sanctified psychoactive skin of proteus than enlarge person, myself. Focus mainly on boosting mental stats and using them for stuff like HP (Faerie Mysteries Initiate) while you use various forms for combat, defense, utility, mobility, etc; especially nice since it doesn't even take up a standard item slot. 8 HD hydras are REALLY nice in combat, especially with various maneuvers and feats a warblade/fighter can bring to the table. Feel free to spend money to boost the ML up to 15+1 using, say, the Landlord feat. Wear the skin, turn into a building, and imbue it with magic qualities using Landlord. Since it covers your whole body, you could conceivably use it to give yourself item qualities for various body parts and functions. For instance, your unarmed strikes could be enhanced while wearing the skin.

[edit 1] Though I guess if you use permanencied enlarge person before using the skin, they WOULD potentially stack...

[edit 2] Make it as a device (Ravenloft: Legacy of the Blood) to prevent dispels and disjunctions.

[Jarmen4u]

I would personally prefer replacing Warblade 20 with Warblade 1/ Fighter 9/ Warblade 9/ Fighter 1 in that order, using Zhentarim Soldier (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a), Dungeoncrasher, and Dead Levels (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a) for Fighter. Take Imperious Command in DotU and you can swift-action demoralize an opponent and make them spend a turn cowering every round. That 10th Fighter level's bonus feat can be used to get Weapon Supremacy in PH2, and the three Fighter bonus feats prior to that can help you get the prerequisites for it.

For a level 29 character, you can go Warblade 1/ Fighter 9/ Bloodstorm Blade 9/ Fighter 1/ Warblade 9 and still get 9th level maneuvers and stances. You'll have five fewer maneuvers known and two fewer readied, plus one fewer stance known, compared to a build with Warblade 20. However, you'll have about the same number of higher level maneuvers and stances compared to a Warblade 20 due to the nine extra initiator levels prior to the 2nd-10th Warblade levels.

Dungeoncrasher is superb with the feat Knock Back in RoS, you can get Enlarge Person + Permanency or use one of many other methods to become large size to qualify for that. It's especially good if you're flying over opponents and bull rush them into the ground to deal Dungeoncrasher damage on every attack.

I appreciate this long thought-out response, but as I said already, this is a current character that I'm already playing, so it's not something to rebuild as you suggested. I'm simply looking for where to go from here, as well as fill in the extra feats I have neglected to take.