Arcane Hierophant entry points

[Allanimal]

I’m trying to figure out if there is a way to get into Arcane Hierophant at 7th level without excessive cheese.

The Trackless Step prerequisite pretty much enforces a Druid 3 Minimum. That meshes well with the 2nd level divine spellcasting requirement. On the arcane side, Wizard or Wu Jen 3 would meet the arcane spellcasting requirement, and between the two classes, the skills requirements are easily covered.

BAB 4 is the problem. Even with fractional BAB, Druid 3 / Wizard or Wu Jen 3 is only 3.75. Taking another level in either means that the other class can never get 9th level spells. Unless i’m Missing something...

Can it be done? Are there any 3/4 or better arcane base classes that get 2nd level spells at 3rd level?

Even better if it can be done using only Core, PHB2, Completes (except psionics and champion), Races of ..., MiC, SpC. Others might be negotiable, but the DM does not want any other subsystems (psionics, time of battle, incarnum, etc.). DM has been known to do some minor home brew feats and other items, if there is something similar already published and not too cheesy.

Thanks in advance for your help.

[PhantasyPen]

I think the Precocious Apprentice feat from Complete Arcane is your only option, and that's considered a highly-contested reading of the feat. If your DM is okay with you adding a little bit of cheese to your ham though (and I'm a bit concerned they might not since they're banning all sub-systems) you might get away with it.

[BowStreetRunner]

What I've seen is mostly characters who take a couple of levels of Mystic Theurge until their BAB gets high enough for Arcane Hierophant. So you could do Druid 3/Wizard3/Mystic Theurge4/Arcane Hierophant 10 or something like that.

EDIT:

I think the Precocious Apprentice feat from Complete Arcane is your only option, and that's considered a highly-contested reading of the feat. If your DM is okay with you adding a little bit of cheese to your ham though (and I'm a bit concerned they might not since they're banning all sub-systems) you might get away with it.Out of curiosity, how does this solve the BAB issue?

[Grim Reader]

I think Bamboo Spirit Folk get Trackless Step as a racial?

Less optimally, you could substitute Battle Sorcerer for Wizard, and use Versatile/Heighten to qualify for 2nd level spells. I am not sure if that is "excessive" cheese though.

[Allanimal]

What I've seen is mostly characters who take a couple of levels of Mystic Theurge until their BAB gets high enough for Arcane Hierophant. So you could do Druid 3/Wizard3/Mystic Theurge4/Arcane Hierophant 10 or something like that.
yeah, that will do it! For some reason I had it in my head that Mystic Theurge had higher skill requirements than Arcane Hierophant, I guess I had it backwards.


I think the Precocious Apprentice feat from Complete Arcane is your only option, and that's considered a highly-contested reading of the feat. If your DM is okay with you adding a little bit of cheese to your ham though (and I'm a bit concerned they might not since they're banning all sub-systems) you might get away with it.


EDIT:
Out of curiosity, how does this solve the BAB issue?

Yeah, please explain.

EDIT:

I think Bamboo Spirit Folk get Trackless Step as a racial?

Less optimally, you could substitute Battle Sorcerer for Wizard, and use Versatile/Heighten to qualify for 2nd level spells. I am not sure if that is "excessive" cheese though.

Yeah, I’m pretty sure the DM won’t go for the versatile thing...

But bamboo spirit folk maybe. What book is it from? Arcane Hierophant says trackless step “class feature”, but I think as a racial might fly. Thanks!

[Bad Wolf]

Sorcerer 2/Druid 4 with Versatile Spellcaster and Heighten Spell gets you all the requirements and into AH at 7th level.

[Grim Reader]

No prob. Its from Oriental Adventures. It was updated to 3.5 in an issue of Dragon Magazine.

[lylsyly]

Just a thought from my usually befuddled brain but Battle Sorcerer gives you 3/4 BAB, maybe talk to the DM about the Martial Wizard in the SRD granting you 3/4 BAB in exchange for access to the fighter bonus feats.

Just my 2 cp
YMMV

[AnimeTheCat]

Battle sorcerer meets the BAB by level 3, but to the spell level naturally. You could take precocious apprentice to satisfy that requirement with b. Sorcerer 3/druid 3. That's one way precocious apprentice helps solve the problem... could do the same with Bard, Beguiler, or even Duskblade. If, that is, you take the reading of Precocious Apprentice to mean that you cast a second level spell from a bonus second level spell slot that can only cast said second level spell.

You could even do Duskblade 1/Druid 4 and have a level 6 entry, and that probably the least cheesy entry with the least druid delay.

[Nifft]

Precocious Apprentice might run into a RAW problem when you get level 2 Druid spells.

Versatile Spellcaster doesn't create a spell slot, it only allows you to cast a spell that you know -- it won't interact with Heighten to break your spell-level cap.


Are you using fractional BAB? If so maybe you can use Ruathar (3/4 BAB) stacking onto Wizard casting.

Druid 3 / Wizard 2 / Ruathar 1 gets you BAB 4 exactly.

[Bad Wolf]

Versatile Spellcaster doesn't create a spell slot, it only allows you to cast a spell that you know -- it won't interact with Heighten to break your spell-level cap.


Versatile Spellcaster allows you to sacrifice two lower spell slots to create a higher-level spell slot to cast a spell that you know that is one level higher. Say you have Mage Armor as a spell that you know, you can Extend/Heighten/Whatever it and make it a second-level spell.

[Nifft]

Versatile Spellcaster allows you to sacrifice two lower spell slots to create a higher-level spell slot Nope, no slot is created. You cast a higher-level spell that you know, full stop.


to cast a spell that you know that is one level higher. Say you have Mage Armor as a spell that you know, you can Extend/Heighten/Whatever it and make it a second-level spell. That's not what the feat says.

Versatile Spellcaster is powerful enough in practice even without that sort of mis-reading power creep.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You can use Versatile Spellcaster to cast a 0-level spell Heightened to 2nd level using two 1st level spell slots. There was an Ask Wizards article back when it first came out that said a Sorcerer who hasn't yet gained 2nd level spell slots could cast an Extended Mage Armor from two 1st level slots using Versatile Spellcaster.

A Druid 3/ Wizard 2 can't meet any of the Ruathar's prerequisites (BAB +6, or any skill 9 ranks, or 3rd level spells).

Druid 4/ Wizard 2 with any of the early-entry casting tricks (Sanctum Spell, Earth Spell, etc.) should be able to qualify even without fractional BAB.

You could just use any Elf or Outsider race (for martial weapon proficiency requirements) and go Druid 8/ Suel Arcanamach 2/ Arcane Hierophant 10.

[Nifft]

You can use Versatile Spellcaster to cast a 0-level spell Heightened to 2nd level using two 1st level spell slots. There was an Ask Wizards article back when it first came out that said a Sorcerer who hasn't yet gained 2nd level spell slots could cast an Extended Mage Armor from two 1st level slots using Versatile Spellcaster. ... and CustServ is never wrong about D&D rules.

That does explain why people think it works, I guess.


A Druid 3/ Wizard 2 can't meet any of the Ruathar's prerequisites (BAB +6, or any skill 9 ranks, or 3rd level spells). Ah, you're right. I thought it was 8 ranks.

[Allanimal]

... and CustServ is never wrong about D&D rules.

That does explain why people think it works, I guess.


Most importantly, I’m pretty sure my DM will agree with you that it doesn’t work, so early spellcasting via versatile spellcaster is out.


Battle sorcerer meets the BAB by level 3, but to the spell level naturally. You could take precocious apprentice to satisfy that requirement with b. Sorcerer 3/druid 3. That's one way precocious apprentice helps solve the problem... could do the same with Bard, Beguiler, or even Duskblade. If, that is, you take the reading of Precocious Apprentice to mean that you cast a second level spell from a bonus second level spell slot that can only cast said second level spell.

You could even do Duskblade 1/Druid 4 and have a level 6 entry, and that probably the least cheesy entry with the least druid delay.


Just a thought from my usually befuddled brain but Battle Sorcerer gives you 3/4 BAB, maybe talk to the DM about the Martial Wizard in the SRD granting you 3/4 BAB in exchange for access to the fighter bonus feats.


All good ideas. Not sure if the Precocious Apprentice Trick will fly with my DM.

The more I think of it, the more I like the Wu Jen as the arcane side, as it has a very close to nature feel and I think would go well with Druid, flavorwise.

So Druid 3 / Wu Jen 3 / Mystic Theurge 1 when using fractional BAB would work to get into Arcane Hierophant at level 8. (Right? 2.25 + 1.5 + 0.5) No loss of 9th level spells. Absolutely no shenanigans.
Yes, it will delay wild shape and animal companion progression, but I think I can live with that.

I’m mainly doing this because my character is the only caster in the party (human mounted combat fighter, human ninja, half-orc knight, whisper gnome archery ranger/scout mix that hasn’t yet cast a spell, other than whisper gnome silence, so she may have the spell-less Ranger ACF, which is probably case knowing the player.) and I would like to bring more variety of spells to the table. I know a Wizard / Cleric Theurge (or Wizard / Archivist?) would provide the most options in the spell lists, but I do like the flavor of the build stub above. We are allowed to do minor rebuilding as we level up to 8th, and this I think might work. If not, it’s a good backup if my current character meets his ultimate demise.

[PhantasyPen]

Funny... I've never noticed the BAB requirement before. I suppose you'd be best served to do something like Wiz1/Druid3/MysThe4 in that case.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Allanimal
Yes, it will delay wild shape and animal companion progression, but I think I can live with that.

Is your DM open to lifting a feat or two from Pathfinder? Shaping Focus (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/shaping-focus/) is designed for just these situations, and will get you another four levels of wildshape progression. Boon Companion (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/boon-companion/) does something similiar for your animal companion, if you have one.

[sleepyphoenixx]

All the people suggesting Precocious Apprentice, Versatile Spellcaster and so on are missing the fact that it doesn't solve the problem of the build not getting dual 9s in 20 levels with that.
You can only take 6 levels that don't have dual progression and only 3 each of druid and wizard so they both reach level 17 at the end.

The usual way to get there is to splash 2 levels of Mystic Theurge, as has already been mentioned. And finishing it off with the same to get dual 9s. You're basically trading Wild Shape and Animal Companion HD for more spellcasting on your wizard side.

You can also get dual 9s by getting Trackless Step from Bamboo Spirit Folk and using Ur-Priest for the divine requirement, but you'll lose out on pretty much all the druid features that way. It's basically Mystic Theurge with better BAB, HD and skill points at that point.

The third option is to use bard casting with the Green Whisperer Prc (it's from dragon, don't recall the number but you can just google it) to qualify for Sublime Chord and advance that with AH, but you're losing even more AC and WS and only enter AH really late.
And there's really no reason not to just go for Fochlucan Lyrist with this one.

[liquidformat]

Funny... I've never noticed the BAB requirement before. I suppose you'd be best served to do something like Wiz1/Druid3/MysThe4 in that case.

If Precocious Apprentice, Versatile Spellcaster and so on aren't working to enter Arcane Hierophant why would they work to enter Mystic Theurge.... Precocious Apprentice is acceptable, than Wiz2/Druid4 is the best entry point. Though like sleepyphoenixx says this isn't the way to get dual 9s in casting

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by sleepyphoenixx
The third option is to use bard casting with the Green Whisperer Prc (it's from dragon, don't recall the number but you can just google it)….

Dragon 311, pp. 69-70.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Dual 9s are overrated anyway. Sure, it looks really good on paper, and it's definitely the superior option when you actually get there.
But seeing how "there" is level 20 it's not something that'll actually happen in most campaigns. And those it does happen in will probably proceed to epic anyway.

In actual play you're probably better off going Druid 5/Wizard 1/AH 10 with some early entry cheese. Slowing your druid casting progression to that of a sorcerer in exchange for some wizard spells (and ACF's) and the better companion is a pretty good trade.
Personally i prefer Snowcasting for that (it acts as Heighten for cold spells) since it's actually useful outside of qualifying.
There's a lot of low requirement buffs you can stack on cold spells like Draconic Aura: Energy for +1-4 to spell DCs and the Icemail Armor from the Far Corners of the World series for another +2, so it's a decent investment even without early entry.

[liquidformat]

Dual 9s are overrated anyway. Sure, it looks really good on paper, and it's definitely the superior option when you actually get there.
But seeing how "there" is level 20 it's not something that'll actually happen in most campaigns. And those it does happen in will probably proceed to epic anyway.

In actual play you're probably better off going Druid 5/Wizard 1/AH 10 with some early entry cheese. Slowing your druid casting progression to that of a sorcerer in exchange for some wizard spells (and ACF's) and the better companion is a pretty good trade.
Personally i prefer Snowcasting for that (it acts as Heighten for cold spells) since it's actually useful outside of qualifying.
There's a lot of low requirement buffs you can stack on cold spells like Draconic Aura: Energy for +1-4 to spell DCs and the Icemail Armor from the Far Corners of the World series for another +2, so it's a decent investment even without early entry.

You don't qualify for Arcane Hierophant with druid 5/wizard 1 so no that is in no way a good starting point for a build. druid 4/wizard 2 with feat cheese yes, druid 6/wizard 1 with feat cheese, but druid 5/wizard 1 you are 1 bab short. note the normal entry route is druid4/wiz3, druid3/wiz4, or druid 3/sorc4 so if you are hitting it at level 7 you aren't doing anything special...

Would snowcasting even qualify? If so then earth spell to cast a 0 level spell in a first level slot as second level spell should also fully qualify you based on RAW... Earth spell has the added function of not needing extra material, nor extra move action, and can be applied to all 0 level spells not just ones with a cold descriptor so you are on steadier ground.

So if earth spell works as a trick to get in we can actually do druid4/duskblade1 and start AH at ecl 6 which I think is the earliest entry we can swing

[PhantasyPen]

If Precocious Apprentice, Versatile Spellcaster and so on aren't working to enter Arcane Hierophant why would they work to enter Mystic Theurge.... Precocious Apprentice is acceptable, than Wiz2/Druid4 is the best entry point. Though like sleepyphoenixx says this isn't the way to get dual 9s in casting

The reason they aren't working outside of a DM just saying no is the BAB requirement, which Mystic Theurge doesn't have. If the DM says no to those feats being acceptable there's nothing you can do about it.

[16bearswutIdo]

It's weird that the sample Arcane Hierophant doesn't even have +4 BAB. The sample one they give in the book is Druid3/Wizard3. Is the +4 BAB a misprint, or is the sample one a misprint?

[sleepyphoenixx]

You don't qualify for Arcane Hierophant with druid 5/wizard 1 so no that is in no way a good starting point for a build. druid 4/wizard 2 with feat cheese yes, druid 6/wizard 1 with feat cheese, but druid 5/wizard 1 you are 1 bab short. note the normal entry route is druid4/wiz3, druid3/wiz4, or druid 3/sorc4 so if you are hitting it at level 7 you aren't doing anything special...

Would snowcasting even qualify? If so then earth spell to cast a 0 level spell in a first level slot as second level spell should also fully qualify you based on RAW... Earth spell has the added function of not needing extra material, nor extra move action, and can be applied to all 0 level spells not just ones with a cold descriptor so you are on steadier ground.

So if earth spell works as a trick to get in we can actually do druid4/duskblade1 and start AH at ecl 6 which I think is the earliest entry we can swing

You qualify with fractional BAB (3,75 + 0,5). Forgot to specify that since it's pretty much the default for me.
And the point isn't to get in as early as possible, it's to use early entry cheese to avoid losing more than 1 level of druid progression. Basically treat it as a druid PrC that happens to offer some wizard casting for utility instead of going for "true" dual progression.
That's a lot more important in most campaigns if you actually play through those levels since being 3 levels behind on casting, wild shape and animal companion gets annoying fast.
Getting dual 9s at level 20 does nothing for you if 95% of campaigns never get that high. You'll be way behind other casters the whole way without any actual payoff most of the time.

As for Snowcasting, it's basically descriptor-specific Heighten, so if any early entry tricks work i don't see why it wouldn't. As long as you know a 1st level cold spell you can cast 2nd level spells.
The reason to take it over Earth Spell is that 1.) it has no prerequisites vs. Earth Spells 2 and 2.) it has a lot of synergy, as i mentioned.
Aside from heightening spells that already have the cold descriptor it also adds it to spells that don't have it, so they're affected by things that boost cold spells. Of which there are a lot.

And there's really no point going into AH if your arcane casting isn't actually worth progressing, which Duskblade definitely qualifies for imo. Duskblade is worthwhile for its class features, but certainly not for its casting by itself.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by 16bearswutIdo
It's weird that the sample Arcane Hierophant doesn't even have +4 BAB. The sample one they give in the book is Druid3/Wizard3. Is the +4 BAB a misprint, or is the sample one a misprint?

If there’s a discrepancy involving a sample character, almost certainly it’s a misprint or a miscalculation with the sample. The printed NPCS are notorious for their typos and other mistakes.

[Grim Reader]

Precocious Apprentice does many things, but qualify you for a dual-advancement PrC it doesn't.

People who try to use it for that get so excited, they forget to read the whole feat. RAW, when you get second-level divine spells, it turns into a bog-standard second level divine slot, so by the time you want to take your first PrC level, you are back to having only first level arcane spells again.

[AnimeTheCat]

Precocious Apprentice does many things, but qualify you for a dual-advancement PrC it doesn't.

People who try to use it for that get so excited, they forget to read the whole feat. RAW, when you get second-level divine spells, it turns into a bog-standard second level divine slot, so by the time you want to take your first PrC level, you are back to having only first level arcane spells again.

Yes, with the most strictly RAW reading, you're correct. However, by the same strict reading other, more negatively impactful rules are present. All that means is that some adjudication is necessary, and I don't find that adjudication to be outside the realm of balance, fairness, or fun.

I have encountered people who follow your same line of thought, but those people also fail to adjudicate drowned healing. YMMV, but I find that it's easy to adjudicate what seems to be a simple oversight on the part of the development team.

Out of curiosity, why would you rule the feat in such a way? It's not a particularly powerful feat, especially when used in such a way so as to gain access to a dual casting class 2 levels early (or 1...). It Grant's a single spell and a single spell slot of a low power, low spell level. The most disruptive I've seen it is for the fiery burst reserve feat in a level 1 party. I'm not trying to pick an argument, I'm just trying to learn another opinion.

[Grim Reader]

Yes, with the most strictly RAW reading, you're correct. However, by the same strict reading other, more negatively impactful rules are present. All that means is that some adjudication is necessary, and I don't find that adjudication to be outside the realm of balance, fairness, or fun.

I have encountered people who follow your same line of thought, but those people also fail to adjudicate drowned healing. YMMV, but I find that it's easy to adjudicate what seems to be a simple oversight on the part of the development team.

Out of curiosity, why would you rule the feat in such a way? It's not a particularly powerful feat, especially when used in such a way so as to gain access to a dual casting class 2 levels early (or 1...). It Grant's a single spell and a single spell slot of a low power, low spell level. The most disruptive I've seen it is for the fiery burst reserve feat in a level 1 party. I'm not trying to pick an argument, I'm just trying to learn another opinion.

"An oversight on the part of the development team" would seem to indicate that the feat was intended to let you qualify for PrCs two levels early. It was not. It was even ruled in a unofficial format by WoTC designers not to work for PrC entry at all.

If you are trying to use RAW to get early entry, at least the RAW should work.

If you are going to cheese entry into a PrC, its not too much to ask that the cheese work, RAW. If you have to use cheese and then ask the DM to change the cheese for you so it works, why not just ask the DM to let you in early in the first place? Or use lesser cheese, such as heighten/versatile, which in the same forum was ruled to work.

This is not drowned healing.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Grim Reader
It was even ruled in a unofficial format by WoTC designers not to work for PrC entry at all.

Can you expand on this? What do you mean by “unofficial format,” and do you have a link or some other reference?

[Grim Reader]

Can you expand on this? What do you mean by “unofficial format,” and do you have a link or some other reference?

Back in the twilight days of 3.5, on WOTCs forums, a number of regular posters made a thread called something like "highly debated questions" or something similar. Its been many years I am not sure of the exact title. Basically it was a listing of the most highly debated/controversial rules questions in the game at the time, each with the pro and con position stated. The WoTC designers got together and had a talk with each other and issued rulings. Or opinions, it was not an official errata or anything.

It included lots of questions, offhand I only remember Precocious Apprentice for the exceptionally dubious reasoning behind the ruling, Heighten/Versatile, 6/10 or 10/10 advancement on Rainbow Servant, and thicket of blades versus tumble.

[Darrin]

Can it be done? Are there any 3/4 or better arcane base classes that get 2nd level spells at 3rd level?


Death Master from Dragon Compendium.

Green Whisperer has already been mentioned. However, I find it amusing that although it advances both bard and druid spellcasting, it doesn't actually specify any spellcasting ability at all as a requirement.

If Illumian is available as a race, then you can take Improved Sigil: Krau to increase the effective spell level of two of your spells. That ought to make Druid 3/Bard 2/Mystic Theurge 2/Arcane Hierophant 3/Sublime Chord 1/Arcane Hierophant +7/Mystic Theurge +2 possible (Dual 9ths).

If Illumian isn't available, then Snowcasting, Extend Spell+Sanctum Spell, or Heighten Spell+Versatile Spellcaster might work. There is a wide variety of opinions on whether or not these early-entry tricks work. (Avoid arguments about RAW. They all boil down to a DM's Call.)

[Rebel7284]

Can you expand on this? What do you mean by “unofficial format,” and do you have a link or some other reference?

If a 1st-level character takes the Precocious Apprentice
feat, can he cast 2nd-level spells for the purposes of
qualifying for a prestige class or meeting the prerequisites
of a feat?
In the Sage’s opinion, the Precocious Apprentice feat
would not help you qualify for a prestige class or feat because
it gives you a chance at casting a 2nd-level spell, not the
inherent ability to cast 2nd-level spells.

[liquidformat]

Death Master from Dragon Compendium.

Green Whisperer has already been mentioned. However, I find it amusing that although it advances both bard and druid spellcasting, it doesn't actually specify any spellcasting ability at all as a requirement.

If Illumian is available as a race, then you can take Improved Sigil: Krau to increase the effective spell level of two of your spells. That ought to make Druid 3/Bard 2/Mystic Theurge 2/Arcane Hierophant 3/Sublime Chord 1/Arcane Hierophant +7/Mystic Theurge +2 possible (Dual 9ths).

If Illumian isn't available, then Snowcasting, Extend Spell+Sanctum Spell, or Heighten Spell+Versatile Spellcaster might work. There is a wide variety of opinions on whether or not these early-entry tricks work. (Avoid arguments about RAW. They all boil down to a DM's Call.)

If your only goal is dual 9's wouldn't Bamboo Spirit Folk with snowcasting druid2/wizard1/Mystic Theurge4/Arcane Hierophant10/Mystic Theurge7 be easier...

Technically Bamboo Spirit Folk savage bard 5/Green Whisperer3/Arcane Hierophant1/Sublime Chord 1/Arcane Hierophant10/Green Whisperer4 works though it is rather goofy and more focused on bard.

[Covenant12]

It included lots of questions, offhand I only remember Precocious Apprentice for the exceptionally dubious reasoning behind the ruling, Heighten/Versatile, 6/10 or 10/10 advancement on Rainbow Servant, and thicket of blades versus tumble.Hopelessly offtopic, but happen to remember the decision and ideally reasoning behind the decision on thicket of blades vs. tumble?

Because I've looked at that a few times, and don't believe there is a RAW answer. Designer opinion is as good if not better than any logical argument.

[Grim Reader]

Hopelessly offtopic, but happen to remember the decision and ideally reasoning behind the decision on thicket of blades vs. tumble?

Because I've looked at that a few times, and don't believe there is a RAW answer. Designer opinion is as good if not better than any logical argument.

From memory, and its been a few years, Thicket of Blades is the more specific condition, and so overrules Tumble, which is a general skill use.

[Covenant12]

From memory, and its been a few years, Thicket of Blades is the more specific condition, and so overrules Tumble, which is a general skill use.Thanks. Seems stretching specific trumps general a bit, but I doubt I'll find a better answer.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by liquidformat
If your only goal is dual 9's wouldn't Bamboo Spirit Folk with snowcasting druid2/wizard1/Mystic Theurge4/Arcane Hierophant10/Mystic Theurge7 be easier...

Technically Bamboo Spirit Folk savage bard 5/Green Whisperer3/Arcane Hierophant1/Sublime Chord 1/Arcane Hierophant10/Green Whisperer4 works though it is rather goofy and more focused on bard.

Why are you building these out to 24 levels?

[liquidformat]

Why are you building these out to 24 levels?

I am not I am showing what level you are getting to in the order you are getting to it. in the first one you go to Mystic Theurge 4 then take all 10 levels of Arcane Hierophant then go to another 3 levels of Mystic Theurge to get to 7. simialry you only get to green whisperer 4, furthermore you can't take a 5 level prc past 5 levels so there is that...