Swashbuckler/Paladin ideas

[CTurbo]

Not really looking to build a character right this minute. Just had the idea of how a Swashbuckler/Paladin multiclass would go.

Obviously I think a Dex Paladin would be the way to go here, but which Oath? and how many levels?

Pally 6/Swash 14 comes to mind pretty quick, but some of the Oaths have great level 7 Auras, and of course Pally 11 is also a great cutoff level.

I like the mechanical synergy here, and I can envision so great rp angles too

Any thoughts?

[ReaperChaos]

Well, before anything else, you should know that this is quite a MAD character build. To multiclass in and out of Paladin you need a STR and CHA score of 13. To multiclass in and out of Rogue, you need a DEX score of 13. So 3 medium to high scores. If you want to be a bit tanky outside of AC, Constitution will also be needed. Also you would be restricted to melee range only, as there is not much synergy with ranged weapons for a Paladin.

If you can overcome these hurdles, then yes it could be a capable multiclassing. The best Oaths in my opinion for such a think, that come up to mind right now, would be the PHB oaths, depending on what you desire. I would rate the Oath of Ancients and Oath of Vengeance a bit higher though. Oath of Devotion can give you a nice boost through its CD by adding CHA to attack rolls. Oath of Ancients gives you Esnaring Strike and a CD option, both of which cause the Restrained effect, triggering Sneak Attack. Finally, Oath of Vengeance gives you a CD that allows advantage against an enemy for 1 minute. It all depends on which you prefer thematically, combat wise as well as rp wise.

Finally, if I had to say about levels, I believe Rogue 8/ Paladin 12 would be very good, just for the extra ASI. If you feel like you don't need it, you can go for Paladin 11/ Rogue 9 for 1 more sneak attack dice and the Panache ability. The other good option would be Paladin 6/ Rogue 14 for the blindsense and bigger sneak attack, but that makes you a bit more squishy and more reliant to sneak attack for consistent high DPR. But it's not a bad thing so to say.

[ciarannihill]

So there's a way to fight this being so MAD a little bit: Dip a single level into Hexblade Warlock. This make it so your damage is based entirely on Charisma, so you Strength and Dex investments can be minimal -- Just enough to multiclass or wear the armor you want. You seem like you'd be going Sword and Board anyway, and Sneak Attack merely requires that the weapon be Finesse, not that you use Dex to attack so a Rapier/Shield combo works well. It also gives you a powerful ranged option with Eldritch Blast and short rest Smite.

Half-Elf is almost certainly the best Race for this style build, and with point buy being about this if you want heavy armor:
14 (15) Str / 13 Dex / 13 (14) Con / 8 Int / 9 Wis / 15 (17) Cha
And if you want to use Medium armor:
13 Str / 13 (14) Dex / 13 (14) Con / 8 Int / 11 Wis / 15 (17) Cha

Endgame build would look a little like this:

Hexblade Warlock 1 / Vengeance Paladin 11 / Swashbuckler Rogue 8



Just some food for thought.

[ReaperChaos]

Yes that is also viable. There are ways to counter the MAD. I was just stating the options for a pure Swashbuckler Paladin

[Talionis]

In builds that are very MAD, I often suggest non-variant Human. Get +1 to all the Attributes you need is very helpful. I also think you'll have to decide which attributes to max as you may be using all your ASI's for Attribute improvement and not feats.

I also agree that dipping into Warlock doesn't make you any more MAD and can let you max Charisma. You'll want Charisma maxed most likely because of Paladin Aura. Tomelock is another way to attack with Shillelagh, which isn't awful because it gets you a familiar too and that can be helpful for a Sneak Attack character.

[Corran]

I don't think there is any significant mechanical synergy between these two classes. This is because each one of them favors a different approach to combat. Rogues want to fight from range or to hit and run in melee (the second one is what a swashbuckler is supposed to do), while paladins want to keep relatively stationary and close to their melee allies so they can buff them with their auras. And then there is the attribute requirement for multiclassing which doesn't help.

I am not saying that such a character would be unplayable, far from it (I have played sth very similar), and I agree there are some good rp angles to it (or at least some that I find intriguing). And it would be a nice challenge for someone to optimize such a multiclass. But if someone was doing this mc purely for optimization purposes, then he would probably end up disappointed, or so I think.

[Specter]

Vengeance, of course. Inigo Montoya is what you're looking for.

But really, Vow of Enmity and Sneak Attack go hand in hand.

[PeteNutButter]

I don't think there is any significant mechanical synergy between these two classes. This is because each one of them favors a different approach to combat. Rogues want to fight from range or to hit and run in melee (the second one is what a swashbuckler is supposed to do), while paladins want to keep relatively stationary and close to their melee allies so they can buff them with their auras. And then there is the attribute requirement for multiclassing which doesn't help.

I am not saying that such a character would be unplayable, far from it (I have played sth very similar), and I agree there are some good rp angles to it (or at least some that I find intriguing). And it would be a nice challenge for someone to optimize such a multiclass. But if someone was doing this mc purely for optimization purposes, then he would probably end up disappointed, or so I think.

I agree with this. You'll have a decent cha so you'll have a slightly better initiative than most, and that's about where the synergy stops. You could take that hexblade level but then you are in tier 3 before getting your second ASI, (presuming paladin 6). The problem is that Swashbucklers just don't get all that much from their cha, as compared to all the other "real" charisma classes.

Paladin/Rogue isn't the best combination, but I tend to favor Arcane Trickster, since at least you still slowly progress your smite slots. Paladin 6/AT 14 is still only an 8th level caster though...

[Talionis]

I don't think there is any significant mechanical synergy between these two classes. This is because each one of them favors a different approach to combat. Rogues want to fight from range or to hit and run in melee (the second one is what a swashbuckler is supposed to do), while paladins want to keep relatively stationary and close to their melee allies so they can buff them with their auras. And then there is the attribute requirement for multiclassing which doesn't help.

I am not saying that such a character would be unplayable, far from it (I have played sth very similar), and I agree there are some good rp angles to it (or at least some that I find intriguing). And it would be a nice challenge for someone to optimize such a multiclass. But if someone was doing this mc purely for optimization purposes, then he would probably end up disappointed, or so I think.

There are a lot of Charisma synergies. They both can be melee classes. The sneak attack damage will rarely be wasted especially since you have at least two attacks. I can easily see the mobility being very nice on a Paladin...

I think you should tell us what abilities you want from each class... Which Oath you take is probably more fluff than anything else. The Oaths are very role play controlling... Vengeance has a little synergy, but I don't know that there is anything particularly different in the different Oaths.

If you decide to do the Nature Oath/Green Knight route, then I'd suggest a minimum of 7 levels of Paladin, so that you get that Oath Aura, its really strong.

[Spiritchaser]

Vengeance, of course. Inigo Montoya is what you're looking for.

But really, Vow of Enmity and Sneak Attack go hand in hand.

Vow of enmity goes with sneak attack... The thing is... swashbuckler doesn’t.

Oh sure there are going to be places where your vow will help, but far more often than not, a swashbuckler can arrange a sneak attack just fine, even on the front lines.

Now hasten on the other hand goes VERY well with a swashbuckler.

Hasten attack for sneak attack on your turn, readied action for sneak attack on theirs.

[CTurbo]

Half-Elf lets you start 13 Str, 16 Dex, 14 Con, 8 Int, 9 Wis, 16 Cha with point buy. Sure I'd rather swap the Str and Wis scores but I don't really see an issue here. You just alternately bump Dex and Cha in that order and still grab at least 1 feat if you want.

I know this is not a popular combo but that's why I thought it was interesting enough to discuss. Yeah it makes for an extremely mobile Paladin which is against the norm, but I still think is doable.

I imagine this character being very cocky and arrogant. He probably goes straight to the biggest baddest enemy on the field and attacks with his sword and his words, and he'd hit really hard with a combo of sneak attack + smites. Initiative would be through the roof, and you could expertise social skills instead of stealth, perception, or acrobatics if you wanted.

I kinda like Devotion for this. I prefer being able to add Cha to all attacks to the Vengeance's advantage vs one enemy feature. Either would be great for a Rogue.
Ancients is always great with probably the best level 7 Aura being great on any character.
Normally I really dislike the Vengeance's level 7 feature, but being able to move up to half your speed after AoO sounds really good on this character. Vengeance probably gets the best Oath spells too.
I think Conquest would be really interesting here. You could prance around the battlefield scaring foes with your sword play and your insults. I almost want this character to take Magic Initiate for Vicious Mockery lol
I normally don't like Oath of the Crown, but the Oath spells are great for this character and it's features pay nice as well. I also think Spirit Guardians would be cool to have for this character.

Anyway I still think this would be a fun character to play with. I'm thinking Paladin 11/Rogue 9 would be best, but Paladin 7/Rogue 13 would be a great alternative. Obviously depending on which Oath chosen and which features you wanted.

[Corran]

@CTurbo:

Assuming your party setup profits from it, then shield master would be a good pick. Decent strength along with expertise in athletics, and good dexterity, make good use of what SM provides (still, the value of this feat is almost exclusively determined by your allies' setup, it's just that if it suites them, you can make good use of it due to your stats and due to expertise). If you pick halfelf for race, selecting the subrace that allows you to take BB might be a good choice for when you want to hit and run (though no synergy between SM and BB). Also, while far from an optimal pick, that odd score in wisdom and the fact that I always loved the read lips would force me to grab observant.



Crown 3/ mastermind 17


Since you can remember yourself, you only wanted to make your country proud. After all, you are descended from a distinguished family that has offered their best to defend this great nation of yours. And the apple does not fall far from the tree. It's in your blood. At least these are the things your father always told you. So you enlisted from a very young age. And why not? Your family name alone was enough to ensure you a good military career, regardless of your abilities. But you had a lot of potential. And they saw it too (the ominous they). So just after you swore your oaths to king and country, they approached you and gave you your mission. Under false papers and a new identity, you were to travel to the neighboring kingdom (where the campaign takes place). Your mission? Simple to put in words. They told you to make a name for yourself there. To do heroic deeds. Build up a reputation and draw their attention. Become their hero and earn their trust. Enter their military structure and climb the ranks as fast as you can. And be ready. For when the time comes, you will help to tear them from within.

You start with the soldier or the folk hero background (either a rank to the rival's kingdom military, or a heroic deed that has earned you a good name among the common folks of this rival kingdom). I went for mastermind cause at level 17 (so cl 20) they get that ability that allows them to lie well, but that could be up for change I guess. Expertise in persuasion goes without saying (as you need to make friends), also in deception.

Just an idea of a concept that I would personally like to play (again), assuming it would fit the campaign.

Not sure if a lawful good character would fit this guy/gal, but it would be very interesting to play a good character. The conflict between carrying on with his duty and developing actual friendship with the enemy (ie other party members) would be a struggle worth of roleplaying.