PDA

View Full Version : Player Help Swapping out Warlock spells and invocations: how does it work exactly?



Mongrel
2018-07-25, 11:18 PM
I'm a little confused as to what is and isn't actually legal in terms of swapping out Warlock spells and Warlock invocations. For reference, here's what the rulebooks say (from p.107 of the PHB):

For swapping out spells:


Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of the warlock spells you know and replace it with another spell from the warlock spell list, which also must be of a level for which you have spell slots.



My question here, specifically, is are you allowed to swap out a lower level spell for a higher level one? For instance, at second level I know three first level spells. At third level I know four spells total (learning one more spell) and gain access to second level spells for the first time. Am I able to swap out one of my first level spells for a second level one when I level up from 2 to 3 (ending up with 2 first level spells and 2 second level ones)?

Regarding Invocations, the rules say this:


Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of the invocations you know and replace it with another invocation that you could learn at that level.

The confusion I have here is "that you could learn at that level." Is "that level" referring to the level I now am, the level I just left, or the level I originally learned the invocation at? For instance, if I went from level 3 to level 4, would "that level" be level 2 (the level the original invocations were learned at), level 3 (the level I just left), or level 4 (the level I am now)?

Here's a specific example for clarity: let's say I have a second level Fey pact Warlock with Grasp of Hadar and Green Lord's Gift as my two invocations I gained at that level. I then gain a level, putting me at level three, and take the Pact of the Chain class feature. Can I swap out Green Lord's Gift for Gift of the Ever-Living Ones (an invocation that requires the Pact of the Chain feature to take) during that level up (e.g. at level 3)? Or, because I just gained my invocations last level and couldn't have any pact features at that level, I can't? What about when I level up again, going to 4? Am I able to make the above mentioned invocation swap then since I have the Pact of the Chain feature at the level I'm leaving? Or no still, because I didn't have that feature at level 2 when the invocations were originally gained?

Malifice
2018-07-25, 11:38 PM
Your new higher level.

So when you hit Warlock 5, you can swap a 1st level spell for a 3rd level spell, and you could swap an invocation of 2nd level with (say) thirsting blade which has a warlock prerequisite of 5th.

DarkKnightJin
2018-07-26, 01:35 AM
Your new higher level.

So when you hit Warlock 5, you can swap a 1st level spell for a 3rd level spell, and you could swap an invocation of 2nd level with (say) thirsting blade which has a warlock prerequisite of 5th.

^ This.
It's usually a lot simpler with 5e than some people like to think it is.
I'm not saying that you're dumb or anything. I'm saying that you might be overthinking it.

In this case, you can indeed pick a new spell or Invocation as if you are the new level of Warlock for the purposes of picking them.
You could swap out one of the 2 Invocations you have when you reach level 3, and take a Pact Boon related one. Say, Gift of the Ever-Living Ones or Voice of the Chain Master if you pick Chain.

Another one would be picking up Book of Ancient Secrets, or Aspect of the Moon if you've picked Tome.
You would meet the prerequisites to choose those Invocations at that level, so you are able to swap an 'old' Invocation out for one of those.

Mongrel
2018-07-26, 03:14 AM
Okay cool, thanks for the clarification. I guess I was mostly confused because of how other spontaneous casters work. Sorcs, for instance, absolutely cannot "trade up" when relearning their spells (unless I'm wrong about them too lol).

Contrast
2018-07-26, 04:28 AM
Okay cool, thanks for the clarification. I guess I was mostly confused because of how other spontaneous casters work. Sorcs, for instance, absolutely cannot "trade up" when relearning their spells (unless I'm wrong about them too lol).

You are wrong. They can.

DarkKnightJin
2018-07-26, 05:36 AM
Okay cool, thanks for the clarification. I guess I was mostly confused because of how other spontaneous casters work. Sorcs, for instance, absolutely cannot "trade up" when relearning their spells (unless I'm wrong about them too lol).

Why would a Sorcerer be unable to 'trade up' one of their probably outdated spells for a shiny new one?
They have the exact same thing as Warlock and Bard about swapping out their spells.

I'm kind of curious what led you to think a Sorcerer wouldn't be able to do such a thing.
It would make a Sorcerer even more limited with their spells than they already are.

Quoxis
2018-07-26, 05:39 AM
Why would a Sorcerer be unable to 'trade up' one of their probably outdated spells for a shiny new one?
They have the exact same thing as Warlock and Bard about swapping out their spells.

I'm kind of curious what led you to think a Sorcerer wouldn't be able to do such a thing.
It would make a Sorcerer even more limited with their spells than they already are.

5gp say „because my GM said so“

DeTess
2018-07-26, 05:46 AM
I'm kind of curious what led you to think a Sorcerer wouldn't be able to do such a thing.
It would make a Sorcerer even more limited with their spells than they already are.

IIRC, it did work that way in 3.5, so a quick reading of the rules might have led to that assumption.

Mortis_Elrod
2018-07-26, 06:26 AM
IIRC, it did work ghat way in 3.5, do a quick reading of the rules might have led to that assumption.

Treat 5e as a completely new and different game

DarkKnightJin
2018-07-26, 07:19 AM
After thinking about it for a bit..
I'm fairly certain that the 'Spells Known' casters are expected to swap out a lower level spell for a new one when they level, at least at some points.
Otherwise they are going to fall hopelessly behind in actual power they can bring to the table.

I can't imagine a Sorcerer being stuck with Sleep throughout their life because it's decent at low levels..

Mongrel
2018-07-26, 05:06 PM
Why would a Sorcerer be unable to 'trade up' one of their probably outdated spells for a shiny new one?
They have the exact same thing as Warlock and Bard about swapping out their spells.

I'm kind of curious what led you to think a Sorcerer wouldn't be able to do such a thing.
It would make a Sorcerer even more limited with their spells than they already are.


IIRC, it did work that way in 3.5, so a quick reading of the rules might have led to that assumption.

^That. Most of my DnD experience is with 3.x.

As far as "sorcerers being stuck with sleep," that didn't happen in 3.x either since you could always swap it out for a level 1 spell that scales better with level (for instance, Magic Missile if you for some reason hadn't taken it yet). Even in 5e, there are level 1 spells that can be cast at a higher level for a greater effect (though it seems to me that casting a higher level spell is almost always the better option to casting a low level spell at a higher level spell slot...)