The Warlock / Patron relationship

[krugaan]

So, what happens when a Warlock decides to forsake their patron, exactly? Like Patron Bob of the 3rd layer of the Stygian Latrine has decided you have to smear your face with poop to honor his layer, or whatever, and you've just had it at this point.

I'm going to assume, at a minimum, you can't take any more levels in warlock, for example, unless you finagle a way to jump to a different patron.

What happens to your current warlock abilities?

[ad_hoc]

So, what happens when a Warlock decides to forsake their patron, exactly? Like Patron Bob of the 3rd layer of the Stygian Latrine has decided you have to smear your face with poop to honor his layer, or whatever, and you've just had it at this point.

I'm going to assume, at a minimum, you can't take any more levels in warlock, for example, unless you finagle a way to jump to a different patron.

What happens to your current warlock abilities?

Rules don't cover any of this.

[mgshamster]

As mentioned, the rules don't cover this. You're adding a lot of assumptions that aren't there.

By the rules, absolutely nothing happens. You keep all your old warlock levels, and you can still get more levels in the future.

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?564033-How-to-make-a-warlock-that-s-as-little-sinister-as-possible) recent thread discusses a lot of this and more or less answers your question.

However, all that said, as a player you could use that as a reason why you refuse to take anymore warlock levels. It would be some great RP.

[Unoriginal]

So, what happens when a Warlock decides to forsake their patron, exactly? Like Patron Bob of the 3rd layer of the Stygian Latrine has decided you have to smear your face with poop to honor his layer, or whatever, and you've just had it at this point.

I'm going to assume, at a minimum, you can't take any more levels in warlock, for example, unless you finagle a way to jump to a different patron.

What happens to your current warlock abilities?

The designers talked about that in a video.

In principle, a Warlock's Patron *cannot* take back the power once given, and the minimum relationship possible is that the Warlock did a service to them, the Patron rewarded it with a spark of power, and then neither had any relationship with the other.

But that's the minimum: some Patrons add conditions and requirements the Warlock must do.

In that case, what happen is: whatever was specified in the Pact.

There is no unified answer to your question because it depends entirely of what this particular Patron a d this particular Warlock agreed on.

[JoeJ]

The designers talked about that in a video.

In principle, a Warlock's Patron *cannot* take back the power once given, and the minimum relationship possible is that the Warlock did a service to them, the Patron rewarded it with a spark of power, and then neither had any relationship with the other.

I saw that video and it never clarified whether that meant the power of levels already gained or the power to keep gaining levels.

My ruling is that if you break off the relationship with your patron you can't gain any more warlock levels, and, depending on who the patron is, they might try to repossess your pact boon.

[krugaan]

I saw that video and it never clarified whether that meant the power of levels already gained or the power to keep gaining levels.

My ruling is that if you break off the relationship with your patron you can't gain any more warlock levels, and, depending on who the patron is, they might try to repossess your pact boon.

I got the image of a fat devil with a cigar and a New York accent.

*poof*

"Please allouse me ta innerDuce myself. My name is Bob, and my esteemed colleague here is The Don. Not Don, THE Don. We's here on behalf of the big boss, who eh, shall we say, wants rumuneration for soitan soivices rendered."

"He wants his cut. And he was... Unspecific as to how we should get it"

[Glorthindel]

Its very much a discussion between yourself and your DM towards the nature of your Pact.

The Pact could have been a single one-and-done service, in which case, your character has carried out the service, so his powers are his to keep for eternity, or more of an ongoing arrangement. In the latter case, it would depend how much of your end of the bargain you have carried out - breaking that arrangement could result in just receiving no new powers (since the powers you have received up to that point are payment for the actions you've performed to this point), or a complete removal of your powers (if the powers were granted on the condition you do something you are now refusing to do).

Personally, I would be fine with a Warlock in my game stipulating the arrangement whichever way they felt suited the character they wanted to play better (the first type of pact would better suit a character who regrets his pact and is looking to atone for a past misdeed, while the latter type more the sort that is content with his decision and looking to obtain power at whatever cost). From a story point of view, if someone wanted to go with the first type (the no-further-obligations) pact, I would expect the characters part of the pact to be much bigger (and potentially more horrible), to explain why the patron was willing to grant the powers for just a single act, while someone willing to roleplay a pact that requires ongoing maintenance, could get away with a less severe/unpleasant act.

[krugaan]

Semi related question ... what happens to clerics who forsake their deities? That's not explicitly mentioned anywhere in the texts either. In theory, the cleric / deity relationship is even more stringent than the warlock / patron one, although they bear a passing resemblance to each other.

The difference being, of course, that clerics gain virtually all their power directly from the gods, whereas warlock ostensibly only gain knowledge.

[Unoriginal]

Keep in mind one of the example of one-service-and-done Pacts has the Patron give the spark of power in exchange for an interesting magic item.

That's not particularly big all thing considered, but finding that kind of magic item as a non-adventurer is still pretty difficult.


Semi related question ... what happens to clerics who forsake their deities? That's not explicitly mentioned anywhere in the texts either. In theory, the cleric / deity relationship is even more stringent than the warlock / patron one, although they bear a passing resemblance to each other.

The difference being, of course, that clerics gain virtually all their power directly from the gods, whereas warlock ostensibly only gain knowledge.

Strictly speaking, the Warlock gains the initial spark of power, the knowledge can be either given to them by the Patron, or be something they figure out by themselves.

As for the Cleric, it's the God who choose who are their Chosen Ones. If the Cleric displease the god enough, the god can just stop granting them powers, since all of the Cleric's powers require the agreement of the divine.

When the Cleric worship something non-sapient, or aren't sure it comes from divine entities like in Eberron, well, obviously if you get your powers by worship and you stop the worship, you stop getting powers too.



I saw that video and it never clarified whether that meant the power of levels already gained or the power to keep gaining levels.

My ruling is that if you break off the relationship with your patron you can't gain any more warlock levels, and, depending on who the patron is, they might try to repossess your pact boon.

Fair, but they also said that the Invocations where something the Warlock developed independently of the Patron's power (if they can be influenced in which to take by the Patron, it's still the Warlock's own power).

[krugaan]

Keep in mind one of the example of one-service-and-done Pacts has the Patron give the spark of power in exchange for an interesting magic item.

That's not particularly big all thing considered, but finding that kind of magic item as a non-adventurer is still pretty difficult.


Those fit the actual Pacts pretty nicely, actually.



Strictly speaking, the Warlock gains the initial spark of power, the knowledge can be either given to them by the Patron, or be something they figure out by themselves.

As for the Cleric, it's the God who choose who are their Chosen Ones. If the Cleric displease the god enough, the god can just stop granting them powers, since all of the Cleric's powers require the agreement of the divine.

When the Cleric worship something non-sapient, or aren't sure it comes from divine entities like in Eberron, well, obviously if you get your powers by worship and you stop the worship, you stop getting powers too.

That how I would see it, it's just not really written anywhere in the text.

[Unoriginal]

That how I would see it, it's just not really written anywhere in the text.


Clerics are conduits for that power, manifesting it as miraculous effects. The gods don't grant this power to everyone who seeks it, but only to those chosen to fulfill high calling.


Wisdom is your spellcasting ability for your cleric spells. The power of your spells comes from your devotion to your deity.


At 2nd level, you gain the ability to channel divine energy directly from your deity, using that energy to fuel magical effects.


Beginning at 10th level, you can call on your deity to intervene on your behalf when your need is great.

I think the requirements for the Cleric to use their magic powers are pretty clear.

[krugaan]

I think the requirements for the Cleric to use their magic powers are pretty clear.

That's not quite the same as "if you blatantly go against the precepts of your deity, you are unable to cast cleric spells or use any cleric abilities until you perform an act of atonement" or whatever, like they had in previous editions.

[Mortis_Elrod]

That's not quite the same as "if you blatantly go against the precepts of your deity, you are unable to cast cleric spells or use any cleric abilities until you perform an act of atonement" or whatever, like they had in previous editions.

Treat 5e as if it were a brand new game. Read the text. If it’s not there it’s not a rule. Fill the gaps as DM and inform your players before it matters. That usually means session 0.

[Sigreid]

Talk with your DM and make sure you two agree on what your actual obligations are, if any. I doubt I'm the only DM that is only going to do anything with the patron if the player asks me to.

[Dr. Cliché]

To my mind, the extent of your pact is something you should really make clear during character creation.

If you want to play a warlock like any other class, then agree with the DM to make the pact be a one-time exchange in the character's past. Maybe it will come up, maybe he did something he'll want to atone for, but it's largely in the player's hands.

However, some players might prefer the idea of a character who's more closely tied to his patron. Perhaps the terms were more open-ended? Maybe the patron saved his life, and expects the character to serve him in return, when called upon. Perhaps the patron gave the character powers in return for a favour at a later date, but one which he has a very specific plan for.

In the latter case, things could easily get awkward if either the character doesn't want to reveal his deal to the rest of the party, or is even asked to do something which goes against their interests.

Anyway, in terms of what the patron would do if the player refused him, it would probably depend on the nature of the deal and the patron in question. A demon might be forthright and send people to kill him. A Great Old One may send him increasingly horrifying nightmares and visions that soon begin to blur the lines between nightmares and reality. A fey may not attack him directly, but instead mess with him in other ways - e.g. screwing with those he cares about.

[Vogie]

Another idea is that the Warlock themselves doesn't know if their abilities will stick around if they betray the patron... which would make them more likely to seek out a new patron before they cut ties with the old.

This was done by one of the Warlocks in the Godsfall podcast, and was a really compelling idea.