Advice for designing epic tier encounters?

[Gastronomie]

So I wish to DM a high-level adventure some time in the future, and come to think of it, I realize I don't have the knowledge required to create high-level encounters that can actually be challenging to high-level adventurers without it being boring (I want to avoid "same thing as a low-level adventure, only with bigger numbers").

The adventurers can clean up pretty much everything with a single spell, dish out epic loads of damage, change the weather, fly, and drop meteors. How do you entertain such players? Actually pose a threat that's fun? ("Negate all the broken abilities the heroes have" is not fun, meaning the threat should be able to withstand these broken-ass abilities head-on, at least to a certain extent.)

Does anyone with actual experience of DMing an epic level group (level 15 or higher) have any advice on this matter? Thanks~

(And I ask because, although I have joined as a player in epic level adventures several times, frankly, none of them were balanced enough (they were more or less "the heroes wipe the floor with a mop that looks different from the last one"), and neither did I ever feel the risk of death, or the actual thrill of a fierce fight - the sort I often experience at low to mid-level encounters.)

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

At the highest levels of play, combat should be a thing you do to ward off danger, but not the primary problem-solving method. Beating the BBEG should be far more complicated than womping him with a big stick.

[Trask]

At the highest levels of play, combat should be a thing you do to ward off danger, but not the primary problem-solving method. Beating the BBEG should be far more complicated than womping him with a big stick.

I think thats good advice for all levels of play.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

I think thats good advice for all levels of play.

Yeah, but I do think the intent of the game is for more complex problemsolving as the characters advance in levels. At level 1, a sufficiently large chunk of hit points can be a real challenge; by level 11 it's not. Low level characters can't skip many traditional challenges the way a high level party can.

[Aembrosia]

I'm not confident in my ability to create a fun high level encounter.

I think Im supposed to find some middle ground where the players get to use their really powerful tools but their tools alone arent enough.

Any advice from successful first hand experience?

I know it can be done because I've been there before. How do I make an exciting fight for others?

Lights. Is it light or dark? Time of day can be a challenge or boon entirely its own, even at high level play. Lets call it night.

Camera. Where are we? Somewhere big, probably a city, such is the calling of an epic tier adventurer. To defend an entire populace from encroaching doom. Waterdeep is a diverse city with a wide range of people and places to interact with. Lets say we're in waterdeep.

Action. In [time frame] the city of waterdeep will be planeshifted. The enemy has taken over three fortified positions in the city. They have hostages. They are in constant contact with one another, contact which can be broken, but if it is they will accelerate their threat. Where will they send the city? Fugue plane? Sea of fire? Shadowfell? Possibly three different places. They have demands that can be met. Provide them with [treasury] [diplomat] [mcguffin] [sincere apology] [recognition of their one true ruler].

The city guard and army is fighting an army of darkness in the streets. They may be left to their own devices. They may fail. The lord of evil should be emboldened in this case. They may succeed. The heroes should find allies in this case, especially if they helped such a victory.

Three distinct archmages concentrating on a planeshift ceremony entrenched in a place of prominence protected by death knights.

An army of darkness in the streets.

A big bad with his lietenents and most trusted suplicants.

A handful of adult shadow dragons tracing the night sky.

Okay. Save Waterdeep.

You cant save them all. There are four things to fix. As soon as three are solved the fourth develops into something else.

Obviously the mages send the city to a new plane or planes which will have some consequence.

The army of darkness draws the last drop of innocent blood necessary to fulfill the pact of summoning pulling orcus out of the abyss and into their midst.

It was all a big distraction allowing Szass Tahm to pilfer a mcguffin and he's now making his escape back to Thay.

I have no idea how to complicate a fleet of shadowdragons. In the adventure you come up with im sure there will be a cool twist that makes sense.

Good luck. You got this. Figure out either how to lose with charm or win with remorse.

[Unoriginal]

Well, I'll let Megamind put it for me:



https://youtu.be/JQJJjcrwXQE



This is serious, though. 90% of an epic encounter is presentation.

Great environments, Lair action, Legendary actions, antagonists that you can interpret in an awesome manner, powers and events that surprise your players, high stakes that make the back and forth in the conflict seem to matter, etc.

Epicness is something you feel, not an objective feature. Which is why the actual epic literature can mostly be summarized with "and then this particular guy killed a lot of guys", yet the manner it's told makes it feel awesome.

So, let me ask you this question, Gastronomie: what do YOU consider epic?

Try describing an epic scene.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Well, I'll let Megamind put it for me:

This is serious, though. 90% of an epic encounter is presentation.

Great environments, Lair action, Legendary actions, antagonists that you can interpret in an awesome manner, powers and events that surprise your players, high stakes that make the back and forth in the conflict seem to matter, etc.

Epicness is something you feel, not an objective feature. Which is why the actual epic literature can mostly be summarized with "and then this particular guy killed a lot of guys", yet the manner it's told makes it feel awesome.

So, let me ask you this question, Gastronomie: what do YOU consider epic?

Try describing an epic scene.

This is very true. I ran a 1-20 game changing very little except the environments and it was epic because the players were invested.

Let's see...the last few fights went like this:

* fight a demon prince at the center of the universe to stop him from turning off the sun (and destroying everything). I basically used the kraken stat-block, but the environment was fun. Getting flung off means hovering in space until an angel can come and pick you up (basically dropping you from the fight for a few rounds).

* Fighting at the edge of the Crystal Sphere to close a breach and keep though-Borg from oozing through. For this I learned why repelling blast is such a pain--the warlock blasted a Huge-sized aberrant giant off the edge of a shard of the Shell, pushing him far enough that he couldn't get back. This was tied to the warlock's past and was a fun fight.

* They were supposed to fight an ancient silver dragon-turned soul-eating demon prince in a pocket of the Abyss, but they talked him into an existential crisis and ran away before he lost control and self-destructed.

It's all about the presentation, not the difficulty (per se). You can make the boring exciting and the exciting boring depending on how you do it.

[Gastronomie]

@Everyone: Thanks for the advice! I love all those ideas, and they've also gave me an idea of how to make a campaign's problem be on the "epic scale". I certainly do have a lot of ideas I wish to expand on (currently writing on the smartphone so can't write them all out).

Apart from that, however, another question: Are there stuff to be careful when creating individual encounters? (The CR and number of monsters, ways to make sure the turns don't take years, etc. ). The ideas presented regarding terrain, light, place etc. are wonderful, but I'm still concerned about "encounter difficulty". A lot of the high-level adventures I experienced had really epic problems... but turned out the combat was hell easy and didn't seem to match the scale of the problem (due to the characters being too strong). The idea of presenting so many problems they can't save everything is great, but apart from that, any ideas?