Why take Pact of the Blade? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Segev

2018-07-26, 09:44 AM

Ganymede

2018-07-26, 09:50 AM

The pact lets you summon weapons like the old dude in Spawn.

ciarannihill

2018-07-26, 09:50 AM

Segev

2018-07-26, 09:54 AM

One of the main things is that if you're a Hexblade it allows the application of Hex Warrior to any weapon you make via the Pact -- meaning it expands your potential weapon list to include heavy weapons, bows, etc. Plus the invocations they added in Xanathar's are pretty solid. Eldritch Smite is A+

Okay, so that kind-of answers (2). Is there an answer to (1)? Or do you essentially need to be using Xanathar's and later books to make it a worthwhile choice?

(Don't get me wrong: I'm not saying it's so weak that you're ruining your character if you take it. I just see it as...picking a non-ability. Like if there was an "Arcane Study" origin for Sorcerers whose sole power was to let them write spells they know down in a spellbook, but didn't actually give them any further utility from having said spellbook, nor in any way expand their spell options.)

Toadkiller

2018-07-26, 09:58 AM

In the end there can be only one answer. Because you want to play it.

It doesn’t have the mechanical power of other options. But it might provide an avenue to play a character one really wants to play. As designers they tried to make a wide range of such options.

ciarannihill

2018-07-26, 09:58 AM

Okay, so that kind-of answers (2). Is there an answer to (1)? Or do you essentially need to be using Xanathar's and later books to make it a worthwhile choice?

(Don't get me wrong: I'm not saying it's so weak that you're ruining your character if you take it. I just see it as...picking a non-ability. Like if there was an "Arcane Study" origin for Sorcerers whose sole power was to let them write spells they know down in a spellbook, but didn't actually give them any further utility from having said spellbook, nor in any way expand their spell options.)

It's..."suboptimal" without the Xanathar's Invocations and the Hexblade patron (also from Xanathar's) -- it has it's place (giving Warlock the ability to skirmish in the event of an ambush and such), but it was clearly overall outclassed by the other pact boons until Xanathar's came out. Now it's still less powerful in a vacuum, but melee-Lock is far more reasonable now than it was prior for sure. Maybe there are further uses than I'm privy to, but yeah...

Pelle

2018-07-26, 09:59 AM

It allows you to get Extra Attack as a Warlock?

clash

2018-07-26, 10:08 AM

It also make you fairly competent in situations where you wouldnt be otherwise. Just a few listed below:
1) You are stuck in melee and dont want disadvantage on your attacks
2) Your team is trying to be silent or stealth kill guys
3) You are in a zone of silence or anti-magic

Pact of the blade without xanathars and even with it to some degree is a backup plan, and as a backup plan it works pretty well. It just shouldnt be your main playstyle, in the same way that neither pact of the tome or chain is meant to replace Eldritch blast.

Unoriginal

2018-07-26, 10:11 AM

It's how you get to be a gish as a warlock using the PHB. It's a playstyle some people like, and that's enough reason.

It won't make a Warlock the best melee combatant, but it will still make them a melee combatant, *additionally* to the ranged options provided by the Warlock class.

Because yes, no matter the old min-maxing conceit that it's better to be extremely good at one thing than good at several thing, there is a value in being able to do several things. I don't think the Blade Pact is a worse caster-who-can-fight-in-melee than, say, Valor bard.

It's largely worth the features of the other Pacts, I'd say.

And if you go beyond the PHB, the Xanathar's increased the options for that playstyle significantly.

Anonymouswizard

2018-07-26, 10:16 AM

The reasons to take it are roughly as follows:
-Flavour
-Slightly increased versatility
-Most castery corebook gish

I believe it gets better with Xanathars but corebook wise it's certainly the weakest of the three pact boons.

The thing with pact of the blade is that it doesn't put you into the 'bad character' territory, despite being weak. It's an interesting option given the Warlock's limited spells per short rest (two 2nd level slots when the feature comes online, and it takes until after level 10 to get a third slot), although generally Eldritch Blast will be better (otoh it does free up that cantrip slot if you want to focus on utility cantrips).

At the end of the day the bladelock doesn't have to be superior to the Fighter or Barbarian in melee combat in any way because even with it the Warlock is still based around a caster chasis. While a bladelock can be a good enough meleeist that the party won't feel like you're bringing them down, it certainly seems more there to be another option than to be particularly good.

TheFryingPen

2018-07-26, 10:21 AM

If you take a particular couple of Invocations, it remains competitive with running Fighter or Barbarian, but it doesn't really surpass them in any way. (Note, "in any way" is important, here. I'm not looking for it to be better overall, but to be better in some aspect, to have something it can do that makes going Bladelock better than Fighter or Barbarian if you want to be a meleeist.)

It surpasses them in the ability to cast spells for more in or out of combat utility. Some patron features are also quite unique.

1) What does Pact of the Blade get you that is actually worth so central a choice on your Warlock, independent of Invocations dedicated to it?

You partly answered this yourself. Magic weapon, flavor, always accessible, plus you potentially get a proficiency with a martial melee weapon that has better damage and maybe reach. How much worth this has to your warlock depends on how you want to play him. If you want to melee / gish it can certainly be worth it.

2) Are its Invocations so good that it makes taking it a reasonable loss leader, if it doesn't have a solid answer to (1)?

For a combat & melee-focused playstyle, yes. More damage and extra attack (which you don't get without it) can be essential.

Segev

2018-07-26, 10:26 AM

rbstr

2018-07-26, 10:38 AM

On their own, none of the Pact Boons are really all that powerful.
A slightly upgraded Level 1 ritual spell.
Couple cantrips.
What amounts to fancy but limited martial weapon proficiency.

Curiously enough, the "weakest" option is the most potentially transformative in terms of how the Warlock is played.

If you take a particular couple of Invocations, it remains competitive with running Fighter or Barbarian, but it doesn't really surpass them in any way. (Note, "in any way" is important, here. I'm not looking for it to be better overall, but to be better in some aspect, to have something it can do that makes going Bladelock better than Fighter or Barbarian if you want to be a meleeist.)

You've got full-caster-strength spells. You can do all sorts of stuff a martial character can't. If you were better at stabbing things than a Fighter or Barbarian that would be stupid.

CantigThimble

2018-07-26, 10:47 AM

As far as I can tell, Hexblade is basically a balance patch for pact of the blade. I think they originally intended that any type of warlock could take pact of the blade and become a half-martial. (You can kind of see this in the hexblade unearthed arcana which had special pact of the blade invocations for each patron) However, that just didn't work out and it took weird multiclass builds to make pact of the blade warlocks anywhere near as effective as a standard eldritch blast warlock. In order to fix this, they added the hexblade and loaded them with all the things pact of the blade was desperately lacking. (reduced MAD, improved defenses, batter invocations)

So yeah, I think pact of the blade may as well be a hexblade feature at this point.

Grod_The_Giant

2018-07-26, 11:49 AM

On their own, none of the Pact Boons are really all that powerful.
A slightly upgraded Level 1 ritual spell.
Couple cantrips.
What amounts to fancy but limited martial weapon proficiency.
While you certainly don't need any more damage cantrips from Tome, just something like Minor Illusion represents more noncombat utility than, say, a Battle Master will ever see. Find Familiar is already a preposterously good spell; upgrading it...I mean, geez, look at the Imp. Smarter than the Barbarian, four skills, invisiblity, shapeshifting? The Pseudodragon gets telepathy and knockout venom. The Sprite can turn invisible, read emotions and alignments, and is probably the second smartest member of the party. To say nothing of the roleplaying opportunities.

Blade Pact certainly suggests that you take the class in a new direction, and gives you access to some new invocations that help with that, but you're still doing basically all the work yourself. Blade Pact costs build resources in ways that Chain and Tome don't.

QuickLyRaiNbow

2018-07-26, 12:02 PM

I don't actually think the Hexblade patron is necessary for a Blade pact warlock. Pact of the Fiend works well too.

Pex

2018-07-26, 12:04 PM

Combat versatility. Blade Pact warlocks can have Agonizing Eldritch Blast too. Blade Pact warlocks are comfortable in melee or range as needed. Other warlocks combat actions are almost always "I cast Eldritch Blast". When it's not it's casting one of their two spell slots. When an enemy gets close they want to move away as soon as possible. A Bladelock welcomes the company. Being an effective melee warrior gives the warlock more options of stuff to do.

Mortis_Elrod

2018-07-26, 12:48 PM

Because only nerds read books, and I don’t want a pet. I want something to hit people with.

Because i want the versatility that comes with always having a melee weapon, and it being any melee weapon I want, no matter what, no backsies, forever and ever.

Because a magic sword I got from my boss is cool. And look it even changes forms.

Because I can use all the weapon feats if I wanted with the same weapon*

Because smiting is cool and now I can do it from rangerd. Who’s laughing now Paladins?????.

Because I’m not a person wielding a blade, I’m a blade wielding a person. And I don’t need a smaller weaker minion or a book, I need more power.

Because I want to.

Take your pick

Sigreid

2018-07-26, 12:50 PM

I've always thought a pact of blade warlock is a better eldritch knight than the EK. Just feels more like the sword and sorcery are better integrated. More so if Xanather's is allowed.

Willie the Duck

2018-07-26, 12:58 PM

Alright. That's about where I thought it was. I was hoping there was some hidden gem in its mechanics I was missing, as an interesting interaction with something else, or just due to a rules quirk of 5e that I wasn't thinking of.

It just... I feel like the pact weapon should do more than "be magic" and be a melee weapon of choice. Especially with the near-cosmetic nature of the choice of weapon.

I suppose it does make "thrown weapon" easier to pull off? Axes, daggers, and spears are all melee weapons with the thrown tag, so you can conjure them, throw them, then re-summon them to your hand. It'd be nice if it wasn't replicable by a 2nd level Conjurer. (I think, at least, they don't have a "can't do damage" clause in their created items. If they do, I withdraw this particular lament.)

Ah well. I recognize that it's not so weak as to be truly useless. I just always, when initially reading it, think, "Hey, this is pretty cool," and then I really look at its mechanics and get disappointed that it doesn't seem to offer much that just carrying a weapon doesn't.

I think all of the 'martial interpretations of full spellcasting classes' (so valor and swords bards, bladesinger and warmage wizards, even war domain cleric if you like, and these bladepacts) are all a little more underwhelming than the initially seem. I think that has to be the case, or else we'd be back in the 3e issue where spellcasters can do 90% of what martials can do, plus their own stuff. I agree that PHB blade pact warlocks could have gotten more invocations that 'felt' neater (or more ribbons in the pact proper, or something like that).

I don't actually think the Hexblade patron is necessary for a Blade pact warlock. Pact of the Fiend works well too.

Maybe, but is often a tough row to hoe. With assigned stats, and without multiclassing, it's hard to get Charisma and Dexterity (and it will be dexterity) high enough to be competitive in melee combat very early (and if you don't want to be in melee, what's the point?).

QuickLyRaiNbow

2018-07-26, 01:08 PM

Maybe, but is often a tough row to hoe. With assigned stats, and without multiclassing, it's hard to get Charisma and Dexterity (and it will be dexterity) high enough to be competitive in melee combat very early (and if you don't want to be in melee, what's the point?).

I think any of the +2 Dex +1 Cha races can pull it off. Dual 16s is fine.

Mortis_Elrod

2018-07-26, 01:21 PM

I think all of the 'martial interpretations of full spellcasting classes' (so valor and swords bards, bladesinger and warmage wizards, even war domain cleric if you like, and these bladepacts) are all a little more underwhelming than the initially seem. I think that has to be the case, or else we'd be back in the 3e issue where spellcasters can do 90% of what martials can do, plus their own stuff. I agree that PHB blade pact warlocks could have gotten more invocations that 'felt' neater (or more ribbons in the pact proper, or something like that).

Well nearly all of those would include things outside the phb, and if you look there you’d find the invocations that make the Bladelock hold his own if not more comparatively to the other caster fish options.

Maybe, but is often a tough row to hoe. With assigned stats, and without multiclassing, it's hard to get Charisma and Dexterity (and it will be dexterity) high enough to be competitive in melee combat very early (and if you don't want to be in melee, what's the point?).

Well you could definitely start out with 16s in Dex Cha and Str. And that’s about as much as anyone else will have starting out (point buy wise). If you roll well (which happens) then easily feasible. You don’t even have to get EB as a bladelock. You won’t be very tough but you’d hit about as hard as anyone else if not harder f you grab a melee cantrip. You can also just change the weapon from melee to ranged as well. At level 5 you’l be able to hit the smite button on ranged attacks (something not even a paladin or ranger can do without using very specific spells, which can be negated.) and melee attack if you choose to do so.

It’s a perfect glass cannon Gish if you ask me. With Hexblade making it a viable frontliner without feats. There are plenty of reasons to take the Pact of the Blade.

Even without invocations it’s the best weapon in the entire game unless you count ACTUAL magic weapons. AND it’s upgradable if you throw in invocations.

Vogie

2018-07-26, 01:21 PM

The main benefit of Hexblade is the availability to use Medium armor & shields. Bladepact warlocks prior to that release often took a level of Fighter (and occasionally Paladin) at first to get the armor proficiencies.

However, the core is the same. The main draws of a Warlock's blade pact is the gish style, having full spellcasting while also swinging hard. It even makes sense that there aren't fighting styles built in, if for no other reason that they can have a different blade every time.

Not so great for throwing builds, because it takes a full action to summon the weapon, but they added Shadow Blade to give throwers a bone.

Perficio

2018-07-26, 01:27 PM

I like the feeling of security that my character could be knocked out, disarmed, and imprisoned, but still able to summon a weapon to them if it comes down to stabbing to escape. Admittedly, the DM can say "actually, no magic in the cells, they're prepared," so it's not by any means guaranteed, but there's still that hope.

Tome? If the Tome goes missing, it takes an hour-long ceremony to get it back. Chain? If my familiar gets killed, it'll take 10gp of materials and a spell or ritual to resummon it. Blade, though, that's just an action, and then it's stab time.

Willie the Duck

2018-07-26, 01:32 PM

Well nearly all of those would include things outside the phb, and if you look there you’d find the invocations that make the Bladelock hold his own if not more comparatively to the other caster fish options.

Excluding War Domain Cleric and Valor Bard, of course they do. Of course once XGtE came out, there was hexblade, and it has dominated the discussion regarding bladepacts ever since.

Hmmm. autocorrect, I know, but "caster fish options' give me ideas... :smallbiggrin:

Well you could definitely start out with 16s in Dex Cha and Str. And that’s about as much as anyone else will have starting out (point buy wise). If you roll well (which happens) then easily feasible. You don’t even have to get EB as a bladelock. You won’t be very tough but you’d hit about as hard as anyone else if not harder f you grab a melee cantrip. You can also just change the weapon from melee to ranged as well. At level 5 you’l be able to hit the smite button on ranged attacks (something not even a paladin or ranger can do without using very specific spells, which can be negated.) and melee attack if you choose to do so.

True, but those with medium-heavy armor and shield proficiency options have an easier time of it. I've played rogues using point buy or assigned (and with equipment packages, so starting with leather armor, not studded) as well, and it is a challenge. Again, challenge, not impossible. And of course rolled stats (which it's good to hear others still do) changes everything.

No brains

2018-07-26, 01:41 PM

Don't forget, it's not just a weapon, it can be all weapons (only all melee without XGtE). If you like a greataxe but recognize that a glaive may technically be more useful, you're an action and a minimal weight difference from having both.

In some interpretations, this even extends to weapons outside the PHB array. A grimlock's spiked club can get you two damage types at once, a merrow's harpoon can give you a measure of ranged control, and an ice devil's spear can give your DM a headache.

Also on the 'imagination-friendly' side, it could take the shape of an <improvised weapon> and basically be anything. Sure they aren't meant to be weapons, but hitting someone with a crowbar, a grappling hook, or battering ram isn't unheard of.

I also need to echo "Because it's cool". Sure it isn't strong, but it looks cool when you imagine it.

Mortis_Elrod

2018-07-26, 01:43 PM

Excluding War Domain Cleric and Valor Bard, of course they do. Of course once XGtE came out, there was hexblade, and it has dominated the discussion regarding bladepacts ever since.

Hmmm. autocorrect, I know, but "caster fish options' give me ideas... :smallbiggrin:

True, but those with medium-heavy armor and shield proficiency options have an easier time of it. I've played rogues using point buy or assigned (and with equipment packages, so starting with leather armor, not studded) as well, and it is a challenge. Again, challenge, not impossible. And of course rolled stats (which it's good to hear others still do) changes everything.
I think tritons could be great fish gishes. But besides that I think point was that it’s not hard to assemble a non Hexblade Bladelock, it is however somewhat more challenging being that squishy, but Only if you are trying to play something you aren’t. A build like I suggested would want to move very carefully until he got a few levels and feats under his belt (or multiclass). It’s just different.

Segev

2018-07-26, 01:47 PM

Mortis_Elrod

2018-07-26, 01:51 PM

Just looked at the Eldritch Knight, and the weapon bond seems like it’s better in most circumstances. Still gives the summonability, but it can come in a bonus action. Not magical unless you bond a magic weapon, but you can have two magic weapons with it.

But the EK doesn’t have nearly as many options. He’d have to run into a weapon and switch it over to one of his two bonded weapons. Blade pact is an action away from any weapon, AND can just be stored out of existence.

That’s better in my opinion than getting it back to you hand slightly faster.

Talionis

2018-07-26, 02:01 PM

One thing that you may have missed in by core rules it was questionable whether you could get a crossbow to be your Blade Pact weapon... If the crossbow was magical it was RAW if not RAI, and after XGtE, it is now clear you can have a crossbow as a Blade Pact if you take the Magic Weapon Invocation. With Thirsting Blade and Lifedrinker invocations and Crossbow Expert feat and Sharpshooter feat you can do decent damage and get several attacks and make an non-Eldritch Blast maybe even more damaging than Eldritch Blast ranged attacker with the Pact of the Blade.

One of the things you took off the table as a benefit, is actually the biggest benefit, you get access to more invocations. Pact of the Blade opens up the most possible invocations for a Warlock.

As has been said, Pact of the Blade opens up enough Invocations to make you a good Gish. I think if they had it to do over again, they would have pushed the armor proficiencies from Hexblade into Pact of the Blade , which would probably be better balance and allow for non-Hexblade Gish Warlocks.

Segev

2018-07-26, 02:15 PM

But the EK doesn’t have nearly as many options. He’d have to run into a weapon and switch it over to one of his two bonded weapons. Blade pact is an action away from any weapon, AND can just be stored out of existence.

That’s better in my opinion than getting it back to you hand slightly faster.

Technically, the Eldritch Knight can literally leave his weapons lying around, and still call them as a bonus action. It's not quite as secure as Elsewhere-storage, but unless something comes along to damage them while he's not attending them, it's pretty close.

I am, however, now amused by a Charlatan backgrounded Bladelock or Eldritch Knight scamming people by selling their bonded or pact weapons and then walking away. This is one area the Bladelock is slightly better: he can more easily add the disguise self + friends trick to it. Just make sure to be well gone before the five minutes it can be more than 5 ft from the warlock are up. The EK can get away with leaving it longer; he doesn't have to recall it until he wants it again.

MaxWilson

2018-07-26, 07:35 PM

It allows you to get Extra Attack as a Warlock?

Well, almost. Only with your pact weapon, so you remain pretty bad at grappling. Unclear if you'd get extra Shoves with your pact weapon, but you definitely wouldn't get extra grapple attempts.

Tanarii

2018-07-26, 07:45 PM

It allows you to get Extra Attack as a Warlock?
And proficiency in Martial melee weapons.

Pex

2018-07-26, 11:09 PM

The downside to hexblade is technically you don't start with medium armor and shield despite the proficiency if you go by the book starting equipment. You have the normal warlock stuff. It's not an unreasonable request of the DM to get it anyway. You have justification in that while clerics aren't proficient in heavy armor, when a Domain gives them that proficiency they do get to start the game with heavy armor.

BW022

2018-07-27, 12:38 AM

Segev,

I've played two bladelocks in 5E. There are a number of reasons why players might enjoy it...

1. You are playing solo or in a small group. You can't rely on others tanking or being able to stay back all the time.
2. You get bored or casting eldritch-blast all the time.
3. You are multi-classing or otherwise get medium or heavy armor.
4. You are in campaigns where short resting isn't that easy.
5. You want a stealth build - which a number of warlocks are really good with using devil's sight.
6. You are playing in mixed groups where you still have a role. For example, Adventure League play or with a group where flexibility in roles might be useful. You can do spells, or ranged, or melee as needed. Someone is tanking, you can switch to a polearm.
7. You specifically use builds which utilize your flexibility. For example, darkness + devil's sight + polearm + polearm mastery can be brutal. Armor of Agathys and blink up can be brutal and could flying into a rear rank and forcing an enemy caster into melee.
8. You like flashy spells but want melee. Paladins and eldritch knights don't really get big spells and fighter + wizard combos would need to be 10th just to get a fireball and two attacks. Bard spells are not as flashy.
etc.
9. There are a lot of ways to block ranged -- from fog cloud, silence, narrow passageways with doors, etc. Melee can rarely be avoided. Good for players who don't like not being able to do something.

>>1) What does Pact of the Blade get you that is actually worth so central a choice on your Warlock, independent of Invocations dedicated to it?
Versatility. And you can't separate pacts from invocations. Books and chains also have invocations which they are going to take also. A bladelock is the only class which has good ranged, melee, and full-spell casting. At 5th, you could attack twice, eldritch blast, or fireball.

>>2) Are its Invocations so good that it makes taking it a reasonable loss leader, if it doesn't have a solid answer to (1)?
Yes. Same with books and chains.

Zalabim

2018-07-27, 05:16 AM

Warlock isn't exactly the best melee fighter, and its powers don't naturally synergize with that too well. I'm pretty sure it's not just there for Warlock dips from other melee fightery classes who don't have a use for a familiar or extra Cantrips.
Warlocks do have some close-range powers, some spells that work for either kind of fighting, and some spells that specifically only work fully in melee combat, like Armor of Agathys and Fire Shield. Defensively, they only have light armor AC-wise, but they do get defensive powers, invocations, and spells. There's no reason you should start any fight without temp HP and you get multiple ways to gain more. My warlock isn't level 4 yet, has only 14 AC, but barely takes any real damage just because of having False Life at-will. At level 4, I'll gain Heavily Armored.

Alright. That's about where I thought it was. I was hoping there was some hidden gem in its mechanics I was missing, as an interesting interaction with something else, or just due to a rules quirk of 5e that I wasn't thinking of.
Just getting to attack with proficiency with the weapon is pretty meh, but it's a little upgrade if attacking with weapons is already your thing. You can go from daggers, or racial shortsword, to a Rapier or +1 longbow, or from handaxes to greatsword. At a basic level, you can fight good without having to spend an invocation on it right away. I do think it should have had a little something extra, since it's a good avenue for adding a "kill for your master" theme to any Patron.

As for a gimmick, or hidden gem, it can be useful even if you don't use it. The weapon lasts for a minute and counts as magical. If you take Improved Pact Weapon, it is magical, +1. That's like a Magic Weapon spell that lasts for only one fight but doesn't need concentration or a spell slot. You can even bypass the range of Touch by throwing your weapon to your ally. Let others taste a little of your patron's power. I think you could have a "corrupting your party" theme no matter the boon you pick, as long as you use the options for your party's benefit. Take Guidance with Tome, and summoning the familiar is an obvious method, but really have your Imp or Sprite or whatever get involved with other PCs and help them out.

Just looked at the Eldritch Knight, and the weapon bond seems like it’s better in most circumstances. Still gives the summonability, but it can come in a bonus action. Not magical unless you bond a magic weapon, but you can have two magic weapons with it.
I think if you stick with the EK for the bonding ritual, they could even bond to your pact weapon, to really take advantage of the above shenanigans. You'd have to rule whether dismissing the weapon breaks the bond or not. Either way, you'd want to create the weapon before a fight.

Being a weapon-caddy may be a bit limited use for your boon (and an invocation), but it's possible to transition from that to a weapon-user yourself with the right magic items. They get their own sword and don't need you anymore, but you get gauntlets of ogre power and don't need them either.

Spiritchaser

2018-07-27, 05:45 AM

One thing that I think needs to be mentioned is that a non-hexblade MC Fighter 1 Bladelock X, or a hexblade that commits totally to melee actually CAN be one of the very strongest melee combatants.

With darkness and Devil’s sight, later shadow of Moil, and ultimately Foresight, you have advantage on attacks and your foes have disadvantage against you, so your effective AC is actually excellent, and you can use GWM almost constantly. With PAM for 3 attacks a turn you’re just a blender.

I have one of these in my campaign, and he’s got decent support magic, and an exceptional ranged option. If he decides to bring the pain, and really? he usually decides to bring the pain, he can close to melee and just crucify things.

RSP

2018-07-27, 07:01 AM

One thing I dislike about pure Hexblade is the Shield spell becomes very costly as you level. That is, it starts out costing a 1st level slot, but ends up costing a 5th with no additional effectiveness.

It’s easy enough to switch out, but you end up losing the benefit of the Reaction +5, which every other Gish who has it can rely on it throughout their career. This might be my favorite argument to multiclass the Hexblade: more used, and more efficient uses, of Shield.

Spiritchaser

2018-07-27, 07:38 AM

I don’t disagree

That said, with nearly constant disadvantage, bladelocks don’t get hit a whole lot, and often don’t get the best con saves

So you need it less than most and it’s worth more to you than it is to most when you do use it...

Mortis_Elrod

2018-07-27, 07:41 AM

RSP

2018-07-27, 08:14 AM

Idk. I don’t like shield on my Hexblade. I’d rather they take cold damage if they ever hit me. I don’t think the shield spell makes or breaks gishes.

AoA takes an action to cast and most creatures will get through the 1st level tHPs in one hit. With a level 4 slot, give or take, it becomes a better use of a slot, but it still has an action economy cost, assuming no prep. It’s a good spell but in play it gets a lot less use than in theory, from the Warlocks I’ve seen at my tables.

AoA with Bestow Curse is interesting as the retributive damage would get the additional 1d8 from BC. Though this would only work well with a BBEG who likes melee. And you’d have to couple it with Blade award or some other damage mitigation to really make it worthwhile.

Quoxis

2018-07-27, 08:51 AM

I see your reasoning and raise you a „why would anyone play anything but a sorlock“?
Because unique mechanics and flavor. That’s why.

Mortis_Elrod

2018-07-27, 08:58 AM

AoA takes an action to cast and most creatures will get through the 1st level tHPs in one hit. With a level 4 slot, give or take, it becomes a better use of a slot, but it still has an action economy cost, assuming no prep. It’s a good spell but in play it gets a lot less use than in theory, from the Warlocks I’ve seen at my tables.

AoA with Bestow Curse is interesting as the retributive damage would get the additional 1d8 from BC. Though this would only work well with a BBEG who likes melee. And you’d have to couple it with Blade award or some other damage mitigation to really make it worthwhile.

I mean it’s an hour duration. You could reasonably have it up before most fights. I know I do. And it scales pretty appropriately with the slots given, considering you should decent ac with medium armor and shield. I’ve never played as a warlock who was hit every single time someone tried to attack me, and I’ve yet to use a shield spell.

It’s not meant to be something to build an entire playstyle around, but it’s way better use to me than a bit of extra ac. You could do better using darkness or shadow of Moil than a shield spell.

My point, is that shield spell is by what makes hexblades viable, it’s barely even a consideration.

RSP

2018-07-27, 09:20 AM

I mean it’s an hour duration. You could reasonably have it up before most fights. I know I do. And it scales pretty appropriately with the slots given, considering you should decent ac with medium armor and shield. I’ve never played as a warlock who was hit every single time someone tried to attack me, and I’ve yet to use a shield spell.

It’s not meant to be something to build an entire playstyle around, but it’s way better use to me than a bit of extra ac. You could do better using darkness or shadow of Moil than a shield spell.

My point, is that shield spell is by what makes hexblades viable, it’s barely even a consideration.

I’m not arguing Shield is better than AoA, or that it’s needed to make a Hexblade viable. It is a great spell, it just doesn’t scale and, as such, on a character that has limited max slots, it doesn’t make sense. Shield is a great spell for Gishes, just not if it’s costing you high level slots.

AoA on the other hand, is okay, but not great.

Talionis

2018-07-27, 10:16 AM

I’m not arguing Shield is better than AoA, or that it’s needed to make a Hexblade viable. It is a great spell, it just doesn’t scale and, as such, on a character that has limited max slots, it doesn’t make sense. Shield is a great spell for Gishes, just not if it’s costing you high level slots.

AoA on the other hand, is okay, but not great.

Honestly, AoA is pretty bad if cast in a level 1 slot. Shield at level one might be reasonable, but eventually, you will switch out Shield. AoA gets better with level, especially if you have a Cleric in the party that can cast Warding Bond. Shield is the type of spell you might have at low levels and that you will trade at higher levels.

I can also see getting spells that last longer and affect whole combats, if you have Dexterity then Mirror Image can be a good spell. If you can use it well with your party, Darkness is a good spell to use. Generally, on a Hexblade you should be looking for a magical bonus to the whole combat. Since on average you will probably only cast one spell per combat for a while.

Also don't forget offensive spells like Fireball, that may drastically shorten a fight by doing damage to multiple opponents, when you shorten a fight, you generally take less damage.

MaxWilson

2018-07-27, 10:28 AM

I can also see getting spells that last longer and affect whole combats...

Don't forget that intelligent monsters, especially fantastic creatures like dragons, will often know how magic works and that most spells last less than a minute. Breaking off combat to wait for spells to expire is definitely something that a dragon can and often should do.

Mobility counts.

Talionis

2018-07-27, 11:42 AM

Don't forget that intelligent monsters, especially fantastic creatures like dragons, will often know how magic works and that most spells last less than a minute. Breaking off combat to wait for spells to expire is definitely something that a dragon can and often should do.

Mobility counts.

I agree that mobility counts, but the smart monsters doesn't keep me from wanting to get buffs instead of one use spells like Shield. AoA lasts an hour, if you are worried about smart monsters then use something like AoA. Have your team help you to control the battlefield. Often you can control the battlefield. The other answer to monsters running away is Eldritch Blast, with invocations you can control the battlefield yourself.

RSP

2018-07-27, 12:05 PM

I agree that mobility counts, but the smart monsters doesn't keep me from wanting to get buffs instead of one use spells like Shield. AoA lasts an hour, if you are worried about smart monsters then use something like AoA. Have your team help you to control the battlefield. Often you can control the battlefield. The other answer to monsters running away is Eldritch Blast, with invocations you can control the battlefield yourself.

I just don’t usually see AoA actually used that much, in large part due to action economy, but also due to how the spell works and the competition it faces with other spells.

At 1st level, the 5 HPs will probably Absorb 1 Attack but not quite down any non-BBEG you face (goblins for instance will survive the 5 cold damage). Nice but not worth the slot and action use. This tends to be the case even as the spell scales, unless mitigating damage with something like Warding Bond or Blade Ward, as the damage done by creatures increases, generally, as you level, and so to do their HPs.

At level 5, the Action use becomes more of a negative as that’s now 2 Attacks you’re passing on (either thru Thirsting Blade or EB), or a more efficient spell.

Again, not wanting to hate on AoA, it has its uses, just for as good as it sounds, I think I’ve seen it actually used in-game once in about 3 years of playing 5e regularly, and seeing 5 different Warlock PCs over that time, each with different play styles and builds. Though, again, maybe this is just the tables I play at.

Sigreid

2018-07-27, 12:34 PM

Talionis

2018-07-27, 12:58 PM

I just don’t usually see AoA actually used that much, in large part due to action economy, but also due to how the spell works and the competition it faces with other spells.

At 1st level, the 5 HPs will probably Absorb 1 Attack but not quite down any non-BBEG you face (goblins for instance will survive the 5 cold damage). Nice but not worth the slot and action use. This tends to be the case even as the spell scales, unless mitigating damage with something like Warding Bond or Blade Ward, as the damage done by creatures increases, generally, as you level, and so to do their HPs.

At level 5, the Action use becomes more of a negative as that’s now 2 Attacks you’re passing on (either thru Thirsting Blade or EB), or a more efficient spell.

Again, not wanting to hate on AoA, it has its uses, just for as good as it sounds, I think I’ve seen it actually used in-game once in about 3 years of playing 5e regularly, and seeing 5 different Warlock PCs over that time, each with different play styles and builds. Though, again, maybe this is just the tables I play at.

Action Economy is going to be an issue with anything (Mirror Image, Shadows of Mior, Fire Shield, etc), unless its a reaction spell and that is generally a single use spell. Warlocks get so few single use spells its an issue. Generally, I accept the economy loss because I feel like Warlocks need the buff either to offense or defense from spells to get to on par with other melee characters. You get so few spells it can feel like a waste to burn them on Smites.

AoA also really requires building around to be worth the slot. You have to have a way to get resistance and or mitigate damage in order to get more bang for your buck and make it worth the economy loss.

RSP

2018-07-27, 01:21 PM

Action Economy is going to be an issue with anything (Mirror Image, Shadows of Mior, Fire Shield, etc), unless its a reaction spell and that is generally a single use spell. Warlocks get so few single use spells its an issue. Generally, I accept the economy loss because I feel like Warlocks need the buff either to offense or defense from spells to get to on par with other melee characters. You get so few spells it can feel like a waste to burn them on Smites.

AoA also really requires building around to be worth the slot. You have to have a way to get resistance and or mitigate damage in order to get more bang for your buck and make it worth the economy loss.

Agreed, but something like Shadow’s of Moil will be a much better use of a 4th or 5th slot than AoA. The action loss on SoM is much easier to swallow than on AoA, in my opinion, as it grants you Advantage on attacks, applies Disadvantage on attacks against you and deals retributive damage. At the same level AoA is probably relevant on two, maybe three, attacks against you.

Now if you have a minute of prep before you’ll be fighting the BBEG, and you have the slots, certainly throw them both up.

Vogie

2018-07-27, 02:30 PM

To me the main benefit of hexblade is the ability to use your cha for your attack and damage mod. I realize tome could already do this, but if you don't want to be tome it's a great boon.

That's certainly a boon, but it wasn't what people were asking for, or multiclassing for. Paladins love grabbing a single level of Hexblade to make them SAD. But any blade warlock, STR or DEX based, regardless of weapon or patron, longed for access to something other than light armor and mage armor.

Talionis

2018-07-27, 03:16 PM

Dr. Cliché

2018-07-28, 04:53 AM

I think the main issue I have with Pact of the Blade is that it takes an Action to summon your weapon, rather than a Bonus Action.

Given that one of the main reasons to take this pact in the first place is for fun/flavour, it's really annoying that they chose to stamp a big, fat boot on the 'coolness' factor.

"Aha! I have the power to summon a weapon out of pure magic! And now . . . I must stand around not doing anything while my enemies attack me freely. Bow before my might!"

Seriously, would it really have broken anything if summoning it was a Bonus Action instead?

I get that you can just have the weapon sheathed at your side, but surely the cool thing is being able to summon your weapon when combat starts. You know what else I can have sheathed at my side? A normal weapon.

Anyway, that immense frustration aside, one thing I like is the Improved Pact Weapon in XGtE - which lets you use your Pact weapon as an Arcane Focus. It's a quite minor point, but one which I really like. It saves you from having to switch awkwardly between weapon and focus (since you need a free hand to cast most spells), and also means that you can never be deprived of your focus. Not sure how useful it is, but it's definitely something that appeals to me.

Malifice

2018-07-28, 05:38 AM

AoA takes an action to cast and most creatures will get through the 1st level tHPs in one hit. With a level 4 slot, give or take, it becomes a better use of a slot, but it still has an action economy cost, assuming no prep. It’s a good spell but in play it gets a lot less use than in theory, from the Warlocks I’ve seen at my tables.

AoA with Bestow Curse is interesting as the retributive damage would get the additional 1d8 from BC. Though this would only work well with a BBEG who likes melee. And you’d have to couple it with Blade award or some other damage mitigation to really make it worthwhile.

It lasts an hour with no concentration.

There is no action economy cost, unless you waited till a combat started to cast it for some reason. It's always up before you enter the dungeon.

OP: You play a Blade Warlock because you want to be a full caster, and Fight nearly as good as a Paladin or Fighter.

Or because you really rate Elric of Melinbone.

RSP

2018-07-28, 06:37 AM

It lasts an hour with no concentration.

There is no action economy cost, unless you waited till a combat started to cast it for some reason. It's always up before you enter the dungeon.

OP: You play a Blade Warlock because you want to be a full caster, and Fight nearly as good as a Paladin or Fighter.

Or because you really rate Elric of Melinbone.

I know it lasts an hour. You have 2 slots per SR. If you cast AoA before entering the dungeon, a) hope you have a very straight forward DM, and b) you didn’t use that spell slot wisely. Assuming the best scenario (where you get hit with melee damage to trigger the retribution damage):

With a 1st level slot, you’re absorbing ~1 hit, and not doing enough damage to kill a goblin.

With a 2nd, you might absorb ~2 hits, give out a little more damage; the damage will kill a goblin. You’ve missed out on casting darkness, Invisibility, suggestion, blur, or shadow blade.

With a 3rd, still just ~2 hits, dealing enough damage to kill an Orc, which is nice, but now you’re not casting Fear, hypnotic pattern, fireball, counterspell, fly, thunderstep, an 8 hour Hex, or blink.

With a 4th, still just ~2 hits, dealing 20, but not casting banishment, dimension door, Shadow of Moil or sickening radiance.

With a 5th, ~3 hits, deals good damage, but not casting 24 hour Hex, synaptic static, banishing smite or cone of cold. As we’re talking Bladelocks, using that slot on Shadow of Moil is still better than AoA.

So, as I said before, AoA is okay, but I don’t see it used in play because you either lose out on action economy, or have to decide before knowing what the encounter is that AoA is better than any of those other spells, when most times it isn’t.

After level 7, you’ll always want SoM up instead. Prior to that, blur, Hex, and possibly blink or mirror image are better defense.

You really need a way to mitigate damage in order to get the most use out of it.

bc56

2018-07-28, 06:54 AM

I'm playing a Dragonborn Blade Feylock right now.

I built him as a sort of half tank. I generally fight by casting armor of agathys on myself then wading into the fray, using fear effects to keep more troublesome enemies off my back and the wizard's.

Also, I did the math on damage from weapons and cantrips.
The long and short of it is that melee attacking with two attacks, once you get thirsting blade, will always have greater damage than cantrips at the same level, even with agonizing blast. This is true for both max and average damage.

Malifice

2018-07-28, 07:41 AM

I know it lasts an hour. You have 2 slots per SR. If you cast AoA before entering the dungeon, a) hope you have a very straight forward DM, and b) you didn’t use that spell slot wisely. Assuming the best scenario (where you get hit with melee damage to trigger the retribution damage):

With a 1st level slot, you’re absorbing ~1 hit, and not doing enough damage to kill a goblin.

That's why you couple it with either resistance (from your local friendly cleric) or HAM (my favorite at low level) or both.

A Fighter 1/ Warlock X (pact of the blade go to) with HAM will drop several goblins with AoA, while also tanking like a pro.

I have a Fighter 1/ Lock 5 [HAM feat, Warding bond from the Cleric) that casts it. Any damage I take is reduced by 3, and then halved (and then comes of Temp) and the creature takes 15 cold damage.

Presume I'm adjacent to a 5th level Action surging fighter with Str 20 and Dueling style and a sword. Average damage per hit (round up) is 12.

12 -3 = 9. 9/2 = 4.

I take all 4 hits, and take a total of 1 point of damage. The Fighter takes 60 points of cold damage. I may want to spam a Hellish rebuke just to troll the Fighter harder.

I find that it makes the DM not want to attack my character, and if he does, then it deals at least 3-4 hits before dropping, dealing 45-60 damage (and saving me 15 HP) for a net return of 60-75 HP for the price of 1 slot per SR.

Incidentally, its also a great spell for a Sorlock to cast before SRing in a Dungeon, with extend spell applied.

Tanarii

2018-07-28, 10:44 AM

Anyway, that immense frustration aside, one thing I like is the Improved Pact Weapon in XGtE - which lets you use your Pact weapon as an Arcane Focus. It's a quite minor point, but one which I really like. It saves you from having to switch awkwardly between weapon and focus (since you need a free hand to cast most spells), and also means that you can never be deprived of your focus. Not sure how useful it is, but it's definitely something that appeals to me.
you don't need to switch between weapon and focus and keep a free hand. Your free hand is used to access your focus during casting.

(1) Weapon hand
(1) One free hand for casting, used for all S components, and accessing M components, Components Pouches or Focus during casting.

I mean, if your focus is buried in a backpack, a DM is gonna probably shut it down. But hanging on your belt, around the neck, etc is fine. Even keeping your focus in a pouch should be fine, since a component pouch is literally keeping M components in a pouch, and still accessing them without any extra action or object interaction.

Dr. Cliché

2018-07-28, 11:03 AM

you don't need to switch between weapon and focus and keep a free hand. Your free hand is used to access your focus during casting.

(1) Weapon hand
(1) One free hand for casting, used for all S components, and accessing M components, Components Pouches or Focus during casting.

I mean, if your focus is buried in a backpack, a DM is gonna probably shut it down. But hanging on your belt, around the neck, etc is fine. Even keeping your focus in a pouch should be fine, since a component pouch is literally keeping M components in a pouch, and still accessing them without any extra action or object interaction.

Hmm, fair enough. In that case, I guess Pact of the Blade is even more useless than I thought. :smallconfused:

Malifice

2018-07-28, 11:15 AM

Hmm, fair enough. In that case, I guess Pact of the Blade is even more useless than I thought. :smallconfused:

What? No it's not.

Thirsting Blade + Greatsword + GWM + Eldritch smite, all from 5th level.

Youre as hard hitting as any Paladin or Fighter, and you have 3rd level spells (including fly, counterspell and fireball for pact of the Fiend).

You cant Gish any better than that at 5th level.

Mortis_Elrod

2018-07-28, 11:24 AM

Hmm, fair enough. In that case, I guess Pact of the Blade is even more useless than I thought. :smallconfused:

again by all accounts best weapon in the game unless you can get a magic weapon. Then it BECOMES that weapon.

so yeah.

RSP

2018-07-28, 11:33 AM

That's why you couple it with either resistance (from your local friendly cleric) or HAM (my favorite at low level) or both.

A Fighter 1/ Warlock X (pact of the blade go to) with HAM will drop several goblins with AoA, while also tanking like a pro.

I have a Fighter 1/ Lock 5 [HAM feat, Warding bond from the Cleric) that casts it. Any damage I take is reduced by 3, and then halved (and then comes of Temp) and the creature takes 15 cold damage.

Presume I'm adjacent to a 5th level Action surging fighter with Str 20 and Dueling style and a sword. Average damage per hit (round up) is 12.

12 -3 = 9. 9/2 = 4.

I take all 4 hits, and take a total of 1 point of damage. The Fighter takes 60 points of cold damage. I may want to spam a Hellish rebuke just to troll the Fighter harder.

I find that it makes the DM not want to attack my character, and if he does, then it deals at least 3-4 hits before dropping, dealing 45-60 damage (and saving me 15 HP) for a net return of 60-75 HP for the price of 1 slot per SR.

Incidentally, its also a great spell for a Sorlock to cast before SRing in a Dungeon, with extend spell applied.

So, your answer to why AoA isn’t a great spell, is that if you have a specific build (F1/Wx), and either spend a feat (HAM) or require a second character to use their concentration, a 2nd level spell, and take half your damage; it works well in certain situations (still nothing other than a few non-stacking tHPs against ranged or AoE damage).

AoA gets used up quick on a crit, while blur, SoM, MI and blink can all in their own way just negate the crit.

Meanwhile, if instead of HAM, you use that feat on either Resilient (Con) or Warcaster, you’re helping out all your Concentration spells and not require your Cleric to sacrifice so much just for your build to be okay. A Hex’d Bladelock doing sword n board (w Improved Pact Weapon) is about comperable damage (*prior to the fighter getting 3rd Attack) to a GWM Greatsword fighter using -5/+10, while keeping a shield for better AC.

Again, AoA isn’t bad, it’s just not that great, and every Warlock I’ve seen in play tends to avoid it.

Blood of Gaea

2018-07-28, 11:51 AM

Okay, so that kind-of answers (2). Is there an answer to (1)? Or do you essentially need to be using Xanathar's and later books to make it a worthwhile choice?
Before hexblade, my most optimal way to be a Warlock gish was to take book of ancient secrets for the shillelagh cantrip.

I would then suggest taking 6 levels of fighter for two feats, action surge, and con proficiency or paladin for smite, spell slots, good spells, and aura of protection. Either option also gives you heavy armor, shields, and a fighting style. You'll also need to take your first level in one of those classes in order to get heavy armor.

Tanarii

2018-07-28, 12:08 PM

Hmm, fair enough. In that case, I guess Pact of the Blade is even more useless than I thought. :smallconfused:the base Pact boon is a hidden summonable weapon that can change forms and overcomes resistances, and effecticely martial weapon proficiency.

The latter's value can be quite high depending on what magic weapons you find, but thats more of a late game consideration.

Generally speaking, I consider the base Pact to be on par in value with 3 cantrips from any class, or an enhanced familiar.

MaxWilson

2018-07-28, 01:41 PM

Agreed, but something like Shadow’s of Moil will be a much better use of a 4th or 5th slot than AoA. The action loss on SoM is much easier to swallow than on AoA, in my opinion, as it grants you Advantage on attacks, applies Disadvantage on attacks against you and deals retributive damage. At the same level AoA is probably relevant on two, maybe three, attacks against you.

Now if you have a minute of prep before you’ll be fighting the BBEG, and you have the slots, certainly throw them both up.

And then the BBEG laughs in your face and Dimension Doors away. He'll be back in two minutes and your Shadow of Moil will be gone (plus any other short-duration buffs that overeager PCs used too early, like Sacred Weapon).

You don't become a Big Bad Evil Guy by being stupid.

It won't always happen that way but it should happen like that sometimes, maybe often, unless the PCs do something to prevent it. Waiting out one-minute buffs (when disengaging can be done safely) should be an element in any 5E combatant's standard tactical doctrine. "Spells usually only last a minute" is as much a fact about 5E combat as "people can't usually hold their breath for more than a minute while fighting" is a fact about real-life combat.

Again, AoA isn’t bad, it’s just not that great, and every Warlock I’ve seen in play tends to avoid it.

It's pretty decent for mid-level Warbearians (including Warbarians who intend to eventually become Warbearians). No concentration + reasonably long duration + Rage resistance + Reckless Attack to exploit if enemies decline to attack you = pretty good! It's probably worth using at any point after Barbarian 2/Warlock 5.

RSP

2018-07-28, 02:01 PM

And then the BBEG laughs in your face and Dimension Doors away. He'll be back in two minutes and your Shadow of Moil will be gone (plus any other short-duration buffs that overeager PCs used too early, like Sacred Weapon).

You don't become a Big Bad Evil Guy by being stupid.

It won't always happen that way but it should happen like that sometimes, maybe often, unless the PCs do something to prevent it. Waiting out one-minute buffs (when disengaging can be done safely) should be an element in any 5E combatant's standard tactical doctrine. "Spells usually only last a minute" is as much a fact about 5E combat as "people can't usually hold their breath for more than a minute while fighting" is a fact about real-life combat.

It's pretty decent for mid-level Warbearians (including Warbarians who intend to eventually become Warbearians). No concentration + reasonably long duration + Rage resistance + Reckless Attack to exploit if enemies decline to attack you = pretty good! It's probably worth using at any point after Barbarian 2/Warlock 5.

I’m not sure I agree with the first part of your post: if the BBEG is able to teleport at a whim, why not wait more than 2 mins? They’re just as likely to wait an hour as they are 2 minutes. Why not pop back when the group is completely unprepared and sleeping? The idea that 1 min buffs aren’t good because the BBEG will teleport away for two minutes then return, is extremely situational, at best. I really don’t see how this is a good argument for using AoA over SoM. You’re much more likely to encounter a ranged BBEG than a 2-minute teleport-away-and-then-return BBEG, and the ranges BBEG makes 50% of AoA irrelevant. Same with AoE BBEGs. Either is more likely an opponents than “Ill be back in 2 min” BBEG.

As for the second part, I’ll reiterate: AoA is a good spell if you can mitigate damage. Otherwise, you have better options for slots and actions. Rage is one way to make this happen. As is a Sorc multi with either Extend spell to cast it right before the SR to in effect, get a free casting of AoA. Or to cast it and then, along with your attack action, Quicken Blade Ward to take half damage and extend the tHP to double what they usually are. HAM helps as well, though loses efficiency as you level.

RSP

2018-07-28, 02:05 PM

Spacehamster

2018-07-28, 02:11 PM

Simple, it makes you more versatile than the other pacts, you can still stay back and eldritch blast(you will probably still take the CHA to damage on the blast as one of your invocation) but you can also duke it out in melee pretty good, basically it’s the same butter as the other two pacts but spread over two sandwiches instead of one.

sithlordnergal

2018-07-28, 02:17 PM

Without Xanathar's there is no reason to take Pact of the Blade, just like there are very few reasons to take Valor Bard. There are just so many better things you can do with the other two subclasses. Even most gish classes are better off with being a standard Tome warlock then taking the standard Blade Warlock.

JellyPooga

2018-07-28, 02:21 PM

Why take Blade Pact?

Because it lets you take weapons where you're not allowed, or it's inconvenient to.

- Going to the ball? You're not having your Pact Weapon confiscated at the door.
- Climbing through a narrow window? Once you're through, you can bust out that Maul or Pike.
- Who wants to lug a Greatsword around? It's heavy, it's cumbersome, it drags on the ground and snags in branches. Summon it when you need it.
- All the locals looking at the rest of the party suspiciously? It's probably because they're a bunch of heavily armed strangers with faces that look like they've been punched too many times. Then you come along, you're not wearing armour or carrying weapons, you're dressed well and you are sort of, well, likable with that high Charisma. No better way to earn trust than to engender it with the appearance of being harmless. If the proverbial does hit the fan, you've got a paddle despite being up that creek.

In short, Pact of the Blade is the subtle adventurers dream; protection without the stigma that goes with it, offensive capability without the paperwork and book-keeping required to maintain it under civilised circumstances, a weapon that weighs nothing and is invisible. James Bond would have one, so I want one too.

Malifice

2018-07-28, 03:20 PM

So, your answer to why AoA isn’t a great spell, is that if you have a specific build (F1/Wx), and either spend a feat (HAM) or require a second character to use their concentration, a 2nd level spell, and take half your damage; it works well in certain situations (still nothing other than a few non-stacking tHPs against ranged or AoE damage).

Its like that with every spell or feat. It works best when optimised for it.

A monk with GWM isnt as good as a Fighter. A Fighter with Precise strike and Pushing attack is even better.

And so forth.

Citan

2018-07-28, 03:40 PM

Flavor-wise, I can see a few reasons, but I'm at a bit of a loss as to the mechanical desirability. Pact of the Tome gets you additional Cantrips (and lets you class-poach for them). Pact of the Chain not only gets you a familiar, but unique access to cooler-than-usual familiars. Pact of the Blade gets you...a weapon. Okay, it counts as magic, but I haven't seen much in the way of monsters where that's actually all that important, and you can reasonably have a +1 weapon by level 3. It IS impossible to take from you permanently, but so is eldritch blast or any other damage-dealing Cantrip.

Warlock isn't exactly the best melee fighter, and its powers don't naturally synergize with that too well. I'm pretty sure it's not just there for Warlock dips from other melee fightery classes who don't have a use for a familiar or extra Cantrips.

If you take a particular couple of Invocations, it remains competitive with running Fighter or Barbarian, but it doesn't really surpass them in any way. (Note, "in any way" is important, here. I'm not looking for it to be better overall, but to be better in some aspect, to have something it can do that makes going Bladelock better than Fighter or Barbarian if you want to be a meleeist.)

So, two real questions:
1) What does Pact of the Blade get you that is actually worth so central a choice on your Warlock, independent of Invocations dedicated to it?
2) Are its Invocations so good that it makes taking it a reasonable loss leader, if it doesn't have a solid answer to (1)?
Hi!
I don't have ample time for now unfortunately so I cannot detail but...
The bolded part is(are) the wrong assumption(s) right there.

1) Answer to that would vary wildly depending on when you ask.
- Per PHB, well, probably nothing to be honest since you put Invocations aside. I mean, besides the situational benefit of popping a weapon out of nowhere, as far as "getting something more or less reliable when I'm in melee, willingly or not" Tome Pact is far better (Shocking Grasp), otherwise a simple Magic Initiate feat or Sorcerer dip would do the trick. Blade would only have value in a game without multiclass or feats.
- With SCAG out, it actually becomes pretty good already, since you now get scaling damage and and interesting rider. Not better (imo) than Shocking Grasp though, just different (inferior when in melee unwillingly, superior when willingly).
- With Xanathar's on top (can we get both of them in AL? Not sure) it becomes a strong option on its own. Not strong as in "catch up with dedicated weapon holders" of course, but strong as in "great alternative to the classic Eldricht Blast build and now as good or better as Shocking Grasp in melee".
This all is said in the view of "grabbing the option and be done with it".

Now, IF you want to actually *build* upon this choice and make your character revolve around, Warlock can be a real beast. With, and even without the Invocations (tbh, preferably with still ;)).

2) Possibly yes, possibly no.
It really depends on how far you want to push the melee aspect of a Warlock.
Honestly, even the PHB Warlock can be a pretty competitive melee damage dealer.
The only reason most people don't see it, is, to be honest, they are too damn lazy to try.
But once you get past the main drawback of Warlock which is "I fully depend on short rests", and you should (if you are not confident in setting up short rests, then why choose this class in the first place? Except for fluff reasons of course ^^) Warlock with Invocations could already, actually, beat a Fighter at its own schtick (as well as most martials) for quite a couple of levels. It did require specific choice of spells for that though.

Now with Xanathar's Hexblade giving better AC, better accuracy and interesting melee-oriented spells, you have many new ways to build impressive melee Warlocks.

Besides that, when you don't want to bear the pain and wait of multiclasses and 10+ levels, Warlock is the only way some specific builds such as "the Icey Fire Warrior" (Armor of Agathys + Fire Shield).
Outside those specific ways though, for someone who wants a CHA-based gish, straight Paladin or Valor/Swords Bard is probably easier to build and play. :=)

RSP

2018-07-28, 05:42 PM

Its like that with every spell or feat. It works best when optimised for it.

A monk with GWM isnt as good as a Fighter. A Fighter with Precise strike and Pushing attack is even better.

And so forth.

So your argument is: since one specific build, that requires feats; and other casters to use their concentration, actions, take damage on behalf of, and use spell slots for the benefit of the specific build; AoA is a great spell for bladelocks.

Yeah, you proved your point.

Citan

2018-07-28, 06:10 PM

Its like that with every spell or feat. It works best when optimised for it.

A monk with GWM isnt as good as a Fighter. A Fighter with Precise strike and Pushing attack is even better.

And so forth.
Nope. He got you. Just admit it instead of making senseless comparisons on purpose (of course a Monk with GWM isn't as good as a Fighter, he's not proficient with it, so why would he even use it? Sorry, that's plain stupid). You'll feel better afterwards.

Many spells work great without any specific investment/partner/prep.
Bless, Mirror Image (although this works really only with decent DEX), Warding Bond, Shadow Blade, Greater Invisibility, etc... Even Fire Shield.
All spells that are straight cast and play, whatever character you put them on.

Whereas AoA is kinda in the same boat as Haste (high risk requires good concentration), Fly (kinda the same, although Feather Fall is an option), Elemental Weapon (TBH I find it too situational unless upcasted, meaning high caster possibly multiclass).

AoA "as is" is mildly useful when upcast hard (which thankfully is automatic on a Warlock) and seen not as "a thorns effect to last several turns" but as "a convoluted way to do spike damage off-turn against one enemy while avoiding the brunt of a heavy hit" (because it's most often what happens for standard characters).

Which also, of course, implies that you could cast it beforehand AND it is still in effect when you need it (as someone said above, none of those two conditions is a given, in fact they are kinda mutually exclusive unless party managed to get accurate information about its upcoming challenge, namely map of the dungeon and threat evaluation).

You actually demonstrated yourself, with your detailed example, why few people like it, at least for a pure Warlock. ^^
(Oh, by the way, Warding Bond is pure greatness for anyone you apply it onto, not only a AoA Warlock).

@OP: I should really make my luggages instead of lurking around here... XD
But since you seem not convinced of how good a Blade Warlock can be, get a look on his spell list: Hold Person / Monster, Fear, Hypnotic Pattern, Greater Invisibility, are spells that at least enhance defense, and often also offense, all at once. :)
That's how a Warlock can at the very least as good as Fighter, if not better: while it does rely on your concentration and slot consumption, if boots your defense at a similar level and your accuracy much beyond (Battlemaster with Precision manoeuvers left excepted). And possibly damage (reminder: Hold imposes paralyzed condition, paralyzed is auto-crit on melee attack).

Malifice

2018-07-29, 01:40 AM

So your argument is: since one specific build, that requires feats; and other casters to use their concentration, actions, take damage on behalf of, and use spell slots for the benefit of the specific build; AoA is a great spell for bladelocks.

Yeah, you proved your point.

No, my argument is the spell is excellent on certain builds.

Citan

2018-07-29, 02:48 AM

No, my argument is the spell is excellent on certain builds.

That I think everyone agrees with. : )
Especially the ones striving towards a Bearbarian 3+ resistance to mostly all damage) / Battlemaster 4 (optional, for Action Surge and manoeuvers) / Bladelock 9+ (one example od several builds making AoA great : ))

Also to be fair, back on your example, Warding Bond is a low level non concentration spell so besides the risk for caster the benefit is largely worth the cost.
As for concentration buffs such as Protection spells, you "just" need a willing Npc to accompany you, or a Ring of Spell Storing to cast into, which either a full martial pal or (apparently) a familiar can hold and use.
So it's indeed, imo at least, not that hard to push AoA to good levels unless you are in a harsh campaign with "incompatible" party composition. : )

RSP

2018-07-29, 08:51 AM

No, my argument is the spell is excellent on certain builds.

So again, AoA isn’t a great spell, and only becomes good if you have a way to mitigate damage, which was my original statement.

QuickLyRaiNbow

2018-07-29, 09:54 AM

- With Xanathar's on top (can we get both of them in AL? Not sure) it becomes a strong option on its own. Not strong as in "catch up with dedicated weapon holders" of course, but strong as in "great alternative to the classic Eldricht Blast build and now as good or better as Shocking Grasp in melee".

You can't have both SCAG and Xanthar's in AL, no. Fortunately, most of SCAG is reprinted in Xanthar's; unfortunately, booming blade, green-flame blade and lightning lure aren't.

That said, it's fine, because a dedicated melee bladelock is just as good as any other melee character. Devil's Sight and darkness is a powerful source of both defense and advantage, which enables GWM + Elven Accuracy, you get an extra attack at 5 with the Thirsting Blade invocation, and you can turn spell slots into damage with Eldritch Smite. Maybe it doesn't quite measure up to an optimized paladin or fighter build, but it's pretty close.

Tanarii

2018-07-29, 10:19 AM

You can't have both SCAG and Xanthar's in AL, no. Fortunately, most of SCAG is reprinted in Xanthar's; unfortunately, booming blade, green-flame blade and lightning lure aren't.
It's fortunate. Those don't need to become core rules. They can stay setting specific.

Laserlight

2018-07-29, 08:51 PM

you can reasonably have a +1 weapon by level 3.

Or you could reasonably not have a magic weapon until L8 or so. And, depending on your DM, the magic weapons that drop might not be ones you want to use. Oh, and hexblade? Today it's a rapier. Tomorrow, when I'm at the Duke's party, it's a stiletto. The next day, when I'm busting out of prison (it was a rowdy party, okay?), then it's a greataxe. All magic.

Tanarii

2018-07-29, 09:15 PM

and you can reasonably have a +1 weapon by level 3. Or you could reasonably not have a magic weapon until L8 or so.
I missed that part of the OP. It is not reasonable to expect a +1 magic weapon by level 3, if the DMG guidelines are used. A party only has a 28% chance of finding one or more at Weapon +1 in all Tier 1 hoards combined. So 72% of the time they won't find any, for the entire party. And of that 28%, the odds are high it's only one for the entire party.

Sindeloke

2018-07-29, 10:48 PM

Why take Blade Pact?

Because it lets you take weapons where you're not allowed, or it's inconvenient to.

You're a warlock. You do 4d10+20 with 15 foot knockback with your bare hands. Why do you care if weapons are allowed or convenient? They're completely superfluous. This is a form of utility you already possess without taking Pact of the Blade.

Malifice

2018-07-29, 11:00 PM

You're a warlock. You do 4d10+20 with 15 foot knockback with your bare hands...

At 17th level and with two invocations.

At 5th level, with a greatsword and a feat and two invocations you're doing 4d6+4d8+30 and knocking a creature prone.

Blood of Gaea

2018-07-29, 11:02 PM

At 17th level and with two invocations.

At 5th level, with a greatsword and a feat and two invocations you're doing 4d6+4d8+30 and knocking a creature prone.
Why are you suddenly adding a spell slot into the equation here? That's definitely not an equal comparison.

Malifice

2018-07-29, 11:17 PM

Why are you suddenly adding a spell slot into the equation here? That's definitely not an equal comparison.

In that case Fighters are always better than Paladins, seeing as we have to exclude the latters smites.

Blood of Gaea

2018-07-29, 11:22 PM

In that case Fighters are always better than Paladins, seeing as we have to exclude the latters smites.
That's not what I'm saying at all.

You're comparing a melee warlock using a spell slot against a ranged warlock not using a spell slot.

As a comparison, a fiend warlock could be dropping a fireball, and any warlock could use hypnotic pattern.

Malifice

2018-07-29, 11:25 PM

As a comparison, a fiend warlock could be dropping a fireball, and any warlock could use hypnotic pattern.

As can the Blade Warlock. So its a nil all draw on that front.

Pex

2018-07-29, 11:47 PM

You're a warlock. You do 4d10+20 with 15 foot knockback with your bare hands. Why do you care if weapons are allowed or convenient? They're completely superfluous. This is a form of utility you already possess without taking Pact of the Blade.

Even a Bladelock can have Agonizing Eldritch Blast. They are not forbidden. Just as a fighter may want to be useful with the bow as his sword for range and melee, so too can the Bladelock keep in mind being good at both range and melee. However much a non-Blade Pact warlock would like to not be in melee, avoiding it is never a forever success no matter what. The Blade Lock doesn't fear the situation. He can handle himself well and use his turn to attack as opposed to other warlocks whose first thought is to determine how he can get away.

Mortis_Elrod

2018-07-29, 11:56 PM

That's not what I'm saying at all.

You're comparing a melee warlock using a spell slot against a ranged warlock not using a spell slot.

As a comparison, a fiend warlock could be dropping a fireball, and any warlock could use hypnotic pattern.

any bladelock could use those spells too.

Different but equally point proving scenario. Without using a spell slot since apparently that isn't a proper comparison.

2 invocations and a feat. 4d6 + 32 damage. which is 46 avg. This is obtainable before 10th level.

compared to the 4d10 + 20 avg= 42 damage. This requires 17th level.

Tanarii

2018-07-30, 12:02 AM

2 invocations and a feat. 4d6 + 32 damage. which is 46 avg. This is obtainable before 10th level.

compared to the 4d10 + 20 avg= 42 damage. This requires 17th level.
If the Feat is GWM, you need to include hit chance for a fair comparison. 46*.35 = 16.1 vs 42*.6 = 25.2

Edit: of course, magic weapons are easier to come by than magic pact rods. And advantage is slightly easier to come by in melee than at range. So it's still not a perfect picture.

Mortis_Elrod

2018-07-30, 12:09 AM

If the Feat is GWM, you need to include hit chance for a fair comparison. 46*.35 = 16.1 vs 42*.6 = 25.2

Edit: of course, magic weapons are easier to come by than magic pact rods. And advantage is slightly easier to come by in melee than at range. So it's still not a perfect picture.

Well did you include the need for EB to land all 4 hits and blade needing only 2? I feel like that should be considered as well if you really want to include everything...

But, even so i think that stating EB damage as a reason that pact of the blade has no use is..... at the very least misguided.

Tanarii

2018-07-30, 12:22 AM

Well did you include the need for EB to land all 4 hits and blade needing only 2?
I feel like you don't understand the basic concept of hit chance and dpr ...

Mortis_Elrod

2018-07-30, 12:30 AM

I feel like you don't understand the basic concept of hit chance and dpr ...

I in fact might not be thinking correctly... Long night at work is my excuse.

Blood of Gaea

2018-07-30, 01:30 AM

The point isn't that melee warlocks can't cast spells, the point is that you were comparing one warlock burning a spell slot while the other was not, that's it.

Citan

2018-07-30, 02:24 AM

The point isn't that melee warlocks can't cast spells, the point is that you were comparing one warlock burning a spell slot while the other was not, that's it.
To be fair, you are the one that started the string of improper comparison when spurting out a level 17+ case with two related feats illustration... when everyone is talking about benefits you can obtain at levels 3, 5 and 12(14?) respectively.

And, no, it's not the same anyways.
- When in melee, although I agree and advocate about using Repelling Blast *when you don't have better option*, the fact you get disadvantage means that until you get at least 3 rays, you will often have a strong probability to miss at the very least one, possibly both rays.
- When you are gagged up and tied up (taken someplace ruled by a very cautious leader knowing about magic, or the classic prison trope), besides a Subtle Sorcerer or maybe Wizard using spell shenanigans that I don't know off (maybe with Contingency?), any caster is useless. Blade Pact can conjure a dagger (smallest melee weapon that I know off), and seeing how he "creates" it, any reasonable DM would admit he can create in with a direction directly allowing to cut ropes.
- When in settings/localities where magic is frowned upon, it's much easier to make a "weapon appeared from nowhere" tolerated (things like this exists in our real world, so it can pass as a simple trick) rather than straight display of magical energy.
More generally, it's a great asset whenever you don't want to show off the fact you have magical powers. Which is actually often a good idea whatever kind of game you play. Knowledge being power after all...

Blood of Gaea

2018-07-30, 03:04 AM

To be fair, you are the one that started the string of improper comparison when spurting out a level 17+ case with two related feats illustration... when everyone is talking about benefits you can obtain at levels 3, 5 and 12(14?) respectively.
I've not mentioned eldritch blast or agonizing blast a single time in this thread, you're thinking of someone else.

This was my initial post:

Before hexblade, my most optimal way to be a Warlock gish was to take book of ancient secrets for the shillelagh cantrip.

I would then suggest taking 6 levels of fighter for two feats, action surge, and con proficiency or paladin for smite, spell slots, good spells, and aura of protection. Either option also gives you heavy armor, shields, and a fighting style. You'll also need to take your first level in one of those classes in order to get heavy armor.

It's not the only way to go about it, but it was just my thoughts on the matter. The only single class melee warlock I played before hexblade used shillelagh with booming blade.

The rest of your post does bring up good points.

Citan

2018-07-30, 03:48 AM

I've not mentioned eldritch blast or agonizing blast a single time in this thread, you're thinking of someone else.

This was my initial post:

It's not the only way to go about it, but it was just my thoughts on the matter. The only single class melee warlock I played before hexblade used shillelagh with booming blade.

The rest of your post does bring up good points.
Ooops.
Ahem.
My apologies.
Should have read more carefully. :smallredface:
It was indeed rather this post I was thinking about. ;)

You're a warlock. You do 4d10+20 with 15 foot knockback with your bare hands. Why do you care if weapons are allowed or convenient? They're completely superfluous. This is a form of utility you already possess without taking Pact of the Blade.

Blood of Gaea

2018-07-30, 04:04 AM

Ooops.
Ahem.
My apologies.
Should have read more carefully. :smallredface:
It was indeed rather this post I was thinking about. ;)
Even at level 5, there's still a decent damage output of 2d10+8 with a potential rider. So it's still a competitive option to using a pact weapon, especially as it keeps you SAD. This is especially true if you only have a 17 or lower in your weapon attack attribute.

Citan

2018-07-30, 04:08 AM

Even at level 5, there's still a decent damage output of 2d10+8 with a potential rider. So it's still a competitive option to using a pact weapon, especially as it keeps you SAD. This is especially true if you only have a 17 or lower in your weapon attack attribute.
Yeah, sure, *when you are not in melee*.
In melee, you will be at disadvantage, so the output will be definitely lower over a day.

Besides, as many people said already, it's not like a Bladelock couldn't also take the Eldricht Blast Invocations (even if it means taking them a bit later), so there is really no reason to oppose EB and Blade Pact.

And at level 5, with point-buy, you just cannot have more than a +4 modifier in casting stat (18-19: either starting 15+2 and taking +2 stat or half-feat, or starting Variant Human with half-feat and taking +2 after). While it's perfectly doable to start with 16 in both physical stat and casting stat.
So it's a +1 difference, +2 at best if you favored Constitution and beared with a 14-15 in physical stat.
Not that big of a deal, *especially* when you consider...
- How easier it is to get a source of advantage for melee attacks (Wolf/Shove/Help/I don't remember all XD/all that applies to ranged attack) compared with ranged attacks (mainly spells imposing restrained, stunned or paralyzed conditions, or Faerie Fire).
Shove/Help are things anyone can do, and Shove is a feature many martials can do as reliably as a Help, with less action economy involved, and longer lasting benefit.
- How the paralyzed condition, specifically, greatly ups the output of melee damage by making them autocrit, compared to ranged attacks.

These are the kind of things many people tend to forget about that make a big difference in actual play, and a reason enough to consider Blade Pact for some parties. :)

Like a party with a Swashbuckler, a Battlemaster and a Tempest Cleric. Those will certainly try and push creatures prone because they all favor melee attacks, so if you want to focus fire, between disadvantage of creature being prone and the cover allies may provide against you, it would be a pain to hit with EB. Whereas darting in and out with Blade is reliable.

Blood of Gaea

2018-07-30, 04:18 AM

Yeah, sure, *when you are not in melee*.
In melee, you will be at disadvantage, so the output will be definitely lower over a day.

Besides, as many people said already, it's not like a Bladelock couldn't also take the Eldricht Blast Invocations (even if it means taking them a bit later), so there is really no reason to oppose EB and Blade Pact.
Opportunity cost. If you don't need to use your weapon often, you'd be getting more use out of the other two options. One of those options even gives you a decent option for a gish on its own.

It's the same reason I compare eldritch smite to a casting of fireball or hypnotic spectrum, as any time you spend a turn smiting you could instead be casting a potentially encounter ending or altering spell.

Citan

2018-07-30, 04:20 AM

Opportunity cost. If you don't need to use your weapon often, you'd be getting more use out of the other two options. One of those options even gives you a decent option for a gish on its own.

It's the same reason I compare eldritch smite to a casting of fireball or hypnotic spectrum, as any time you spend a turn smiting you could instead be casting a potentially encounter ending or altering spell.
Post edited, you misevaluate the opportunity cost. ;)

Sindeloke

2018-07-30, 05:17 AM

Well did you include the need for EB to land all 4 hits and blade needing only 2? I feel like that should be considered as well if you really want to include everything...

But, even so i think that stating EB damage as a reason that pact of the blade has no use is..... at the very least misguided.

That's not what was stated. What was stated was that "a bladelock can hide his weapon" is an... at the very least misguided argument that the Pact does have use, because "oh no what do I do in this situation where I don't want to carry an obvious weapon, I have no ability to defend myself or hurt people without one" is not a problem a warlock will ever have.

That a bladelock can do more damage by investing significantly more resources is irrelevant. The lock's base damage without the blade is, by design, good enough to be competitive in any combat situation. It's not like a naked kidnapped bard trying to get by on Cutting Words.

Now if you want to argue that bladelock is awesome because it has access to GWM and, with Xanathar, a smite ability, and thus has more damage potential then EB, that's fine and legitimate. But that's not what was said. What was said was "bladelock can hide his weapon and that's a meaningful utility for a warlock" and it isn't.

Citan

2018-07-30, 05:29 AM

That a bladelock can do more damage by investing significantly more resources is irrelevant. The lock's base damage without the blade is, by design, good enough to be competitive in any combat situation where you can aim at targets at least 10 feet away from you and which isn't behind any kind of cover nor prone. It's not like a naked kidnapped bard trying to get by on Cutting Words.

Now if you want to argue that bladelock is awesome because it has access to GWM and, with Xanathar, a smite ability, and thus has more damage potential then EB, that's fine and legitimate. But that's not what was said. What was said was "bladelock can hide his weapon and that's a meaningful utility for a warlock" and it isn't for my games.
Here, I fixed that for you.

RSP

2018-07-30, 07:42 AM

Here, I fixed that for you.

To be fair: any comparison of damage that includes GWM for the Bladelock could just as easily include crossbow expert for the EB-er to not have disadvantage. And if we’re assuming invocations on the Bladelock, the blaster can easily (and should) have repelling; once a hit is made, the 10’ pushback negates Disadvantage for the upclose and personal.

As for the EB vs Smite I saw upthread:
Playing a Bladelock really just comes down to how/what you want to play. I dislike when people say “Bladelock does this damage with Smite” who then also counter with “Bladelock can still cast HP or Fear, etc.” (not saying this was you Citan, was just also responding to your post) as you only have 2 slots per SR the majority of your career; if you use them on smites, you’re not using them on other spells, and vice versa.

Plus, for those who choose to add smite in to their damage calculations, you’re not really giving fair average damage, but rather, the average damage you can do on 2 Attacks per SR. And I’d probably say an EB Warlock with AB, gets a lot more out of Hex then the Bladelock, as the blaster doesn’t have to worry about concentrations saves as much.

So twice a SR you can (-5) 2d6+10+Mod+6d8 at level 5, or every round do 2x 1d10+Mod+1d6. The smite plus second attack (assuming +3 mod as GWM is in play) averages to ~47 assuming both hit (which is a big assumption given the -5).

Or, every round you can do 24 with EB and Hex (again assuming all hits). If you factor in the -5 to hit from GWM, the comparison is something like EB+Hex: 24 to GWM’s: 32.5. (On non-smiting Rounds GWM will be: 15, adjusted for accuracy). (Edit: has wrong math earlier).

Again, bladelocks are fine and are dependent on how you want to play, but straight damage assessments, particularly using Smite and GWM to pump numbers, doesn’t really work.

Citan

2018-07-30, 08:43 AM

To be fair: 1. any comparison of damage that includes GWM for the Bladelock could just as easily include crossbow expert for the EB-er to not have disadvantage. 2. And if we’re assuming invocations on the Bladelock, the blaster can easily (and should) have repelling; once a hit is made, the 10’ pushback negates Disadvantage for the upclose and personal.

As for the EB vs Smite I saw upthread:
3. Playing a Bladelock really just comes down to how/what you want to play. I dislike when people say “Bladelock does this damage with Smite” who then also counter with “Bladelock can still cast HP or Fear, etc.” (not saying this was you Citan, was just also responding to your post) as you only have 2 slots per SR the majority of your career; if you use them on smites, you’re not using them on other spells, and vice versa.

4. Plus, for those who choose to add smite in to their damage calculations, you’re not really giving fair average damage, but rather, the average damage you can do on 2 Attacks per SR. And I’d probably say an EB Warlock with AB, gets a lot more out of Hex then the Bladelock, as the blaster doesn’t have to worry about concentrations saves as much.

So twice a SR you can (-5) 2d6+10+Mod+6d8 at level 5, or every round do 4x 1d10+Mod+1d6. The smite plus second attack (assuming +3 mod as GWM is in play) averages to ~47 assuming both hit (which is a big assumption given the -5).

Or, every round you can do 48 with EB and Hex (again assuming all hits). If you factor in the -5 to hit from GWM, the comparison is something like EB+Hex: 48 to GWM’s: 32.5.

Again, bladelocks are fine and are dependent on how you want to play, but straight damage assessments, particularly using Smite and GWM to pump numbers, doesn’t really work.
1. Except I wasn't talking about any GWM myself. Just a "basic" Blade + Extra Attack, plus whatever a pure Warlock may have in store, such as Hex (better with more attacks) or Hold Person (advantage and autocrit).
2. It is exactly what I said in one of the previous posts, you know. :) But it still means...
- High chance of dealing no damage at all before level 5 (straight less than a Disengage / Shocking Grasp / melee weapon attack)...
- Just decent chance of hitting once for a "Disengage+" action between level 5 and 11 (but still completely inferior to either Shocking Grasp / Disengage if main objective was to get to safety, as well as Extra Attack + possibly Hex if main objective was to deal damage).
- Only at level 11 does it becomes a reliable way to "disengage from one enemy while dealing some damage", possibly more than Shocking Grasp depending on when you land the repelling shot.

3. Completely agree on that: Blade can be as accessory or as primary to a build as each one likes. :) That's actually one of the thing I find well designed in Warlock, but many people seem to have a different view on that. ^^

4. I didn't account neither for smites*, nor for Hex actually before you bring it up.
But while indeed a ranged character usually has less threat on him, it's not sure proof either. And melee attacks with Hold Person(later Monster) active will deal more damage than Eldricht Blast without any Invocation both sides, even with Hex active on EB. At least until level 11.
Also, let's not forget that creature under Hold cannot act. Which means one less source of threat. And crit applies also to Hex's extra die :)
Even with Invocations, both will probably deal overall the same damage, although obviously EB will be more consistent. :)

That's for me the big selling feature of the "basic" Eldricht Blast: you choose when to apply riders (and which ones), it's usually not that hard to keep perfect range and possibly Hide for advantage, the +CHA ensures a better minimum damage, and the basic Hex is also auto-hit...
Whereas a Hold Person/Monster is rarely sure to apply unless heavy knowledge of creature's weakness, specific multiclass to impose roll malus or having an ally like Diviner Wizard in party. Plus even with a crit you can make miserable rolls. XD **

* I don't like smites in essence, because as you said there are so many "bigger", "longer" effects you may apply with... Especially on a Warlock with few slots available at a time... Unless I make a character specifically around it (Shadow Sorcerer 9 / Hexblade Warlock 11), but I find it still kinda a waste. But I have overall the same opinion for Paladin's smiting, except less strong so... :)

** Did it happen to you already, to roll a crit as a lvl 7 Rogue (so 8d6 of Sneak Attack) and amount to 16? Because you rolled 4*1...
It leaves a very nasty aftertaste XD

Blood of Gaea

2018-07-30, 11:52 AM

-snip-
Needing to wait until 11th level for an eldritch blast to be good to disengage is completely wrong. 10ft of push is arguably better then shocking grasp as you can create up for 40ft of distance between you and the enemy. Past level 5 it's outright better then shocking grasp as you only need to land one hit on a target to get them out of OoA range, it can also push multiple targets away from you.

Citan

2018-08-01, 02:37 PM

Needing to wait until 11th level for an eldritch blast to be good to disengage is completely wrong. 10ft of push is arguably better then shocking grasp as you can create up for 40ft of distance between you and the enemy. Past level 5 it's outright better then shocking grasp as you only need to land one hit on a target to get them out of OoA range, it can also push multiple targets away from you.
Okay, so, do you realize you are talking about a 17th level ability here?

Before level 5, you have ONE ray (10 feet push max). Period.
At level 5, you have 2 rays. Two. Rays. Period. So 20 feet max of push. Period.

Take an enemy with 15 AC.
At level 4, let's say you bumped CHA to 18.
Shocking Grasp, chance to hit: +6 against AC 15, 60%. Not accounting for any ally putting the creature prone for advantage, pushing it to 84%.
Eldricht Blast, chance to hit, +6 against AC 15 at disadvantage: 36%.

At level 5, with a bit bump in proficiency (so now bonus is +7), Eldricht Blast, chance of hitting both times: (42/100)*(42/100) = ~18%
Chance of missing both times: 58/100*58/100 = 26%
Chance of hitting at least once: 100-18-26 = 46%.
Shocking Grasp? 65%, or ~88% with an ally putting down for advantage.

This is not comparable.
Especially when you consider the other thing: with Eldricht Blast and Repelling, you *may* also be in a situation when allies could also move without risk of OA (because you all were clumped around in half-sphere by luck or coordination). With Shocking Grasp, it's guaranteed.

So...
When looking for safety, Shocking Grasp is better because it is *reliable* whereas Eldricht Blast is still a bet on luck.
When looking for coordination with melee pals, Shocking Grasp is better because you can profit from advantage so you have a high chance to deal damage and your friends know they have a high chance of being able to move without risk. Making coordinated assaults much safer thus easier to organize. :)

Sorry mate, but my argument is backed up. Yours is not at all. I'm glad EB is working well for you in emergency, but that's just a streak of luck in your own game. Not a proof of fact.
Unless you explain to me how my math is wrong of course, which is always in the realm of possibility, since I'm surviving on old basic knowledge but having strayed of maths since many, many years ago. But on that particular example I'm rather confident that I didn't make mistakes. :)

Segev

2018-08-01, 02:43 PM

When looking for safety, Shocking Grasp is much better because it is *reliable* whereas Eldricht Blast is a wild bet on luck.

Shocking grasp still requires a to-hit roll. I don't see how it's more reliable than Repelling Blast.

Citan

2018-08-01, 02:46 PM

Shocking grasp still requires a to-hit roll. I don't see how it's more reliable than Repelling Blast.
Mate, you're jumping into a discussion, apparently you missed a bit of context.
Blood and me were arguing about Eldricht Blast's interest (compared to Shocking Grasp) when you are forced into melee.
Which implies you have to roll at disadvantage, unless you picked Crossbow Expert.

Of course, without that bit, it's hard to understand why I'd advocate SG being more reliable (unless we had specifically defined a more precised context with a Shoving ally, but that was not the case ;)). :)

Segev

2018-08-01, 03:10 PM

Mate, you're jumping into a discussion, apparently you missed a bit of context.
Blood and me were arguing about Eldricht Blast's interest (compared to Shocking Grasp) when you are forced into melee.
Which implies you have to roll at disadvantage, unless you picked Crossbow Expert.

Of course, without that bit, it's hard to understand why I'd advocate SG being more reliable (unless we had specifically defined a more precised context with a Shoving ally, but that was not the case ;)). :)

Ah, yes, I did, in fact, miss that context.

It's weird that a feat ostensibly (and, to be fair, 2/3 in terms of bullet-point count) focusing on crossbows is so amazingly good for spellcasters who may not even use the darn things, for literally just 1/3 of its effects.

I suppose this even holds true if you're using one of the tricks to give yourself sight and deny it to others in the combat; it's more reliable to retain your Advantage on the shocking grasp (in melee against an effectively-blinded foe) than it is to "merely" have Advantage and Disadvantage cancel out on eldritch blast (in melee against an effectively-blinded foe).

The real benefit of shocking grasp is the denial of Reactions, perhaps letting you disengage from melee. Though I'd also be interested to compare the benefits of expending one of your limited spell slots on misty step; are you likely to be forced into melee so regularly that you need more than the once every few combats use of that spell?

Corran

2018-08-01, 03:24 PM

@Citan:
In a white room scenario, where an enemy is chasing you down, and you are starting adjacent to said enemy, I think EB (with repelling blast) could potentially end up better than shocking grasp (say for a lvl 5 build). The reason is that the if you push the enemy back (and I realize that you roll at disadvantage) and then run away, you will probably create enough distance for the enemy not to be able to attack you in his turn. Instead the enemy will probably choose to dash with his action, and then you are back where you started, with the difference that you also did some damage. It could even be worth it to risk an OA and roll your EB attacks without disadvantage (for better damage and better/more guaranteed push effect), especially if the enemy has multiple attacks. I am not sure if this is better than using shocking grasp, but you have to involve these things when trying to compare it. In actual fights, with allies and by taking account more resources (like expeditious retreat, but more likely misty step), I think shocking grasp will probably start looking less appealing. I think this spell shines when up against enemies with strong uses for their reactions, and I think it falls a bit short when running out of enemy's reach is concerned.

Tanarii

2018-08-01, 03:43 PM

Ah, yes, I did, in fact, miss that context.
Even in that context, it stops being true at level 5 against non-metal-wearing opponents. Two EB blasts at disadvantage, with either one pushing the target back 10ft, has the same disengaging power as one shocking grasp at a normal roll preventing reactions.

Against metal-wearing opponents it's a different matter of course. Takes 4 EBs at disadvantage to be equivalent to 1 shocking grasp as advantage.

Of course, their is also the minor issue that a warlock needs to be Pact of the Tome to get shocking grasp, but in the context of comparison to Pact of the Blade, that's perfectly acceptable. As long as we're not quantum-pacting and assuming everything that provides a similar benefit to Blade is happening at once.

Blood of Gaea

2018-08-01, 04:30 PM

-snip-
You're looking at what I said incorrectly. You only need to land one ray to push an enemy back 10 feet, which will let most races run 30 or more feet away, therefore creating more distance then shocking grasp would. Depending on how many rays you land you are creating 40-70 feet of distance, provided there is enough room and you don't have higher or lower speed than average. Shocking grasp creates 30 feet, which means there's a solid chance that enemy will be right back in your face making a full attack on its next turn.

Tanarii

2018-08-01, 04:37 PM

Shocking grasp creates 30 feet, which means there's a solid chance that enemy will be right back in your face making a full attack on its next turn.
not arguing with your general point, but hopefully you've got some allies trying to do something about that ...

Citan

2018-08-01, 06:00 PM

You're looking at what I said incorrectly. You only need to land one ray to push an enemy back 10 feet, which will let most races run 30 or more feet away, therefore creating more distance then shocking grasp would. Depending on how many rays you land you are creating 40-70 feet of distance, provided there is enough room and you don't have higher or lower speed than average. Shocking grasp creates 30 feet, which means there's a solid chance that enemy will be right back in your face making a full attack on its next turn.
AAAaaaaah ok.
Sorry for my misunderstanding.

Yeah, I completely agree on that bit, which may end as a higher benefit than Shocking Grasp against (many) enemies which only have 30 feet.
Counterpoint though: most "melee" creatures have backup ranged options that go up to 30 feet at least. Usually less potent, but still. :)

Well, I'll have to evolve my standing to the following: "Repelling Blast and Shocking Grasp have definitely completementary uses". :)