Gaming With Kids: How do?

[DRD1812]

I haven't had much experience gaming with kids 12 and under. How young is too young? How long should sessions be? Any advice or anecdotes for an aspiring DM-dad?

Comic for illustrative purposes. (http://www.handbookofheroes.com/archives/comic/jeremy-the-dragon-part-12)

[BowStreetRunner]

I haven't had much experience gaming with kids 12 and under. How young is too young? How long should sessions be? Any advice or anecdotes for an aspiring DM-dad?

Comic for illustrative purposes. (http://www.handbookofheroes.com/archives/comic/jeremy-the-dragon-part-12)

I have young kids and can offer a couple of tips on this. First off, most kids are to some extent natural role-players. I've sat and watched my kids play pretend together and was often surprised how much some of their games sounded like an RPG session. While the degree of imagination will vary from kid to kid, most of them are able to get into running a character pretty well.

It's the rules that tend to trip them up. When they want to do something they don't want to hear "you can't". What they want to hear is how they can do what they want. I came across my kids playing with lightsabers one day and they were arguing about whose force powers were stronger. So I taught them a simple trick we used in one of our LARPs (live-action role-playing) - use rock-paper-scissors (RPS) to decide. This worked fine, as it allowed one of them to use their force lightning and the other to attempt to block, with the RPS check deciding who won. However, when one of them said they wanted to use force lightning and the other said "no, you're a Jedi, only Sith use force lightning" the sparks really flew! Be prepared for the point where they want to do something that is against the rules. How well you handle this will determine whether they accept it or rage-quit. I wish I could tell you how to do that best, but it's going to vary from child to child.

You also mentioned session length. That is going to depend upon the attention span of the kids in question. Younger kids will only last a short while before they get interested in something else. But even older kids aren't going to sit around a lot if their character isn't part of the action - so avoid spending a lot of time dealing with one PC while the others have to sit and watch doing nothing.

My 10 year old is old enough to build a character making decent decision regarding things like class and feat selections. My younger kids work better with characters I make for them - they just tell me what they want and I give them something that fits. Most of them aren't yet to the point where they can pull off some clever and unexpected use of their abilities that will surprise me, so I have to make sure I don't give them challenges that are too complicated. Straightforward challenges with obvious uses of abilities are best at their ages.

And above all, have fun! I know that sounds like a cliche, but you should always remind yourself that is your bottom line when playing with kids. No DM vs PC aiming for the TPK mentality here. Nor should you be concentrating on issues like balance either. If all of the kids playing are having fun, then you are being successful. Don't worry about the rest at these ages. That will come later.

Good luck!

[daremetoidareyo]

Magic items way above WBL are also fun with younger players. Rod of wonder, wand of polymorph other, invisibility rings, Thor's hammer (like from the comics). If you can use it to be like a super hero, dole it out

No save or dies. Adults hate them too.

Add lots of slapstick and you'll have fun for like 30 mins.

The rest depends on the kids. Some like social shenanigans more than combat, especially if you perfect your shocked and befuddled NPC expressions.

NPCs, even ones that aren't important, in my experience, can provide tons of Joy just by making positive comments about the players actions.

"Oh snap!" "I can't believe it!"

[Pleh]

You'll also find many kids that like the idea, but just aren't getting into it because they're wired to engage in different ways and haven't learned to compensate for that yet.

For example, some kids will need to be able to incorporate movement into the game in order to invest in the abstraction. They basically need SOME larping to be able to meaningfully process the scenario and their response

Likewise, others will want to think things through and need distractions minimized.

Others will get excited only when they finally get to roll the dice.

The idea of emphasizing what the CAN do rather what they can't is gold advice. You just about can't overdo it on that.

In that regard, PVP just about necessitates someone will lose. It will be easier for no one to have to lose if you can keep the game PVE. If they start fighting, interrupt with a common enemy they need to fight together and you become the bad guy who needs to lose. You know how to have fun losing.

[flappeercraft]

I have had the same experience but from the kids perspective, in fact it's what got me into D&D, honestly got me a bit too much into it for my own good. So these are a couple reccomendations but you need not use them all.

1. Help them make a character they like that is inspired on some character they like
2. Make the game a whole new experience, while tropes are good and should still be used, deviate from the normal, make it feel special and different from playing runescape
3. Make them feel powerful
4. Make them discover new things
5. Let them struggle but not too much, if they struggle it will be fun but if they do so too much then either they will be frustrated or learn to optimize and will do it to compensate for too much struggle, frequently they will just be frustrated (for me it was the latter honestly)
6. The sessions length should depend on the kids, not on what we say, someone patient could endure something 2 hours long without problem but a hyperactive kid won't last 40 minutes
7. Describe the game well and what happens incredibly, visualization and imagination are astrong suit for most kids, what better than stimulating that with D&D, it helps a lot
8. If you are going to put easter eggs, don't put those from movies like Monty Python, they most likely have not seen it, put it from something they watch like from Marvel movies or whatever they like that could be somewhat compatible

[Segev]

Depending on their age, there are board games like Hero Quest (https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/699/heroquest), which might be a good way to engage them in the idea of the rules.

[Darth Ultron]

Any age really, as long as the kid can read and do basic math.

In youth groups, RPGs are a great way to get kids interested in both reading and math. A lot of kids, that are ''bad'' in both, will often jump at the chance to learn more once they play in an RPG and see a use for both. You can watch kids that ''hate math'' suddenly be amazed with they see an older kid use real ''math magic'' to do something in a game. The same goes true for reading.

The average under 12 game is an hour....but if you do it right, you can hold their attention for at least three hours.

You need to keep the game play fast, and mostly simple and direct. Much more cartoon or fairy tale like.

Kids love the idea of playing a character they like, so making custom characters to fit that is a must. A lot of boys like spider man, so I made a quick 'warlock with webs not a blast' and it worked great. A lot of girls loves the idea of being an ''ice princess' (wonder where they got that from?) and so was made 'icelocks'.

Most kids love puzzles and mysteries that they can solve, so make sure to add them in.

[BowStreetRunner]

Any age really, as long as the kid can read and do basic math.I'd have to disagree with this point. My kids started well before being able to read and do basic math. Others just helped them with those parts of the game and it worked fine.

[Blue Jay]

Kids love the idea of playing a character they like, so making custom characters to fit that is a must. A lot of boys like spider man, so I made a quick 'warlock with webs not a blast' and it worked great. A lot of girls loves the idea of being an ''ice princess' (wonder where they got that from?) and so was made 'icelocks'.

I only got my kids to sit down once. My daughter was a unicorn, and my son was a "fire guy" (fire elemental). I made up simple stats and put them in combat against "wood guys" and '"balloon guys," so my son could burn the wood guys and my daughter could pop the balloon guys with her horn. They were 7 and 4 at the time. My son is autistic, so he really just likes rolling dice. My daughter will play anything with unicorns in it.

[DRD1812]

I only got my kids to sit down once. My daughter was a unicorn, and my son was a "fire guy" (fire elemental). I made up simple stats and put them in combat against "wood guys" and '"balloon guys," so my son could burn the wood guys and my daughter could pop the balloon guys with her horn. They were 7 and 4 at the time. My son is autistic, so he really just likes rolling dice. My daughter will play anything with unicorns in it.

How long was the session? I mean, is an hour too much to ask kids to sit still?

[BowStreetRunner]

How long was the session? I mean, is an hour too much to ask kids to sit still?I don't think an RPG is going to hold their attention span any longer than a board game in most cases. So if you cannot get them to sit through a 30 minute board game then you probably won't have success with an hour long RPG session either.

[Blue Jay]

How long was the session? I mean, is an hour too much to ask kids to sit still?

I think mine lasted almost an hour. My kids focus well if they're engaged (autism: if my son gets engaged in something, he pretty much can't stop doing it, and my daughter tries to do whatever he does). But, you don't necessarily need them to sit still: it helps to act silly and let them move around while they play. Definitely have some miniatures, don't play with a lot of rules, and make the miniatures do things.

Like, when my daughter's unicorn popped a balloon guy, he flew away like a popped ballon, and all the other miniatures got blown away and had to roll Ref or fall over.

I think I ended up just running the same encounter 4 or 5 times, and they just wanted to make the balloon guy pop and hear the noise when the wood guys burned up. And I think we ended up switching gears and playing random dice games for an hour or two after that, and then sorted dice into different piles for a long time.

[Afgncaap5]

I think this is a tricky issue. D&D can be a pretty strongly addictive pastime. I don't think you should wait until 18 like with mind altering substances out there, but I think a close eye should be given to the individual kids and the way the game is presented and played, sort of like with deciding how much TV, video game, or Internet time should be allotted. Having said that, I think D&D... by its nature a group project where the adults will be actively aware of what's happening... is a lot safer than, say, YouTube (which if I ever have kids is a website that I'll never let them use until at least 10 what with the way its algorithm works.)

Having said that, once you've got responsible adults and responsible kids, I say go for it. If an eight year old wants to play a dragon, then I'll just tell 'em "Okay!" and I'll quickly make a character with stats that feels like a dragon (probably just using a Human for the basic abilities.)

And the great thing about kids? They're usually all about the story and how awesome their character is, not about the numbers. They want a fairy with built-in flying? Sure, go for it! They want their knight's sword to be able to break other swords? Too bad for the kid's enemies! They're probably not going to look for the "mechanical advantage" so a lot of D&D's rules set up to prevent powergaming won't apply. And hey, you get the kid who figures out that flying is an "I Win" button? Time to introduce the goblin lord who's mutated a race of aerial goblins!

As a side note, it's possible that 3.5 might not be the best edition of D&D for kids to play. 3.5 and Pathfinder are incredibly crunch-heavy. If it's the system you know, go for it, but there's also a lot of other game systems out there that might appeal more to how a given group of kids might want to play.

[Segev]

YouTube (which if I ever have kids is a website that I'll never let them use until at least 10 what with the way its algorithm works.)I'm curious as to what you're specifically concerned about. There's plenty to be concerned by, but you specified "the way its algorithm works," and that made me curious what it is it does that you're specifically thinking of.



And the great thing about kids? They're usually all about the story and how awesome their character is, not about the numbers. They want a fairy with built-in flying? Sure, go for it! They want their knight's sword to be able to break other swords? Too bad for the kid's enemies! They're probably not going to look for the "mechanical advantage" so a lot of D&D's rules set up to prevent powergaming won't apply. And hey, you get the kid who figures out that flying is an "I Win" button? Time to introduce the goblin lord who's mutated a race of aerial goblins!


Actually, little kids are very much looking for mechanical advantage; they just don't know to call it that. Their let's pretend involves a lot of one-upsmanship of the "infinity+1!" variety. I remember being one, myself, and I also know several and watch it happen. It's kind-of adorable in a way it ceases to be in teenagers. "My shield is invincible, and turns the kind of thing you are into frogs!" is the level of silly overpoweredness they go for. Of course, they also will accept, then try to one-up again, "Okay, but my cape actually makes frogs even MORE powerful than it makes humans, so now I'm SUPERFROG!"

[Afgncaap5]

I'm curious as to what you're specifically concerned about. There's plenty to be concerned by, but you specified "the way its algorithm works," and that made me curious what it is it does that you're specifically thinking of.

Well, to keep this from distracting too much from the D&D talk, lemme just hide this in a spoilery thing...

Well, YouTube's algorithm takes a look at things you like, and then takes a look at things that are popular, and tries to find matches that it can suggest. It used to be that I was just afraid that any kids I might have would start picking up bad words without me discussing them and their usage, or see uploaded clips of TV shows I don't like. I mean, I enjoy Markiplier or Film Cow('s older material) but I wouldn't just let any kids of mine watch them casually. YouTube also rewards long stretches of watched time and easily searchable material, which is why you'll find long videos of people just opening up eggs to see what prizes might be within them and other such stuff that might not technically be "bad", but I'm kinda worried about that long-term minimal-reward structure (something that casinos depend on for addicting people) being so accessible to kids for free. I don't wanna go all "It'll make our attention spans shorter!" but, well, maybe? The research on it is still kinda new since the Internet isn't really that old yet.

Lately, though, I hear more YouTubers talking about the weirdly selective way that YouTube gets people to view things, and while there's nothing specific I can point to and say "This thing is EVIL!", there's enough there for me to be concerned that maybe, just maybe, I should take an active interest in the viewing habits of any kids I may or may not have in the future, on YouTube or similarly patterned platforms in the future.

Also, here's a TED Talk about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9EKV2nSU8w

The talk didn't really tell me anything I hadn't already heard from the hands-on experience of YouTubers who talk about it as part of their day to day job, but the video's suggestion that there might be some people in weird endless cycles of content creation to try to keep up with it all struck me as particularly nightmarish. Maybe not as bad as sweatshop labor (the closest parallel I could think of to it), but it still sounds like something that I don't want to do too much to contribute to.

As for kids looking for the mechanical upgrade constantly... good point! You're totally right about the Infinity +1 swords of childhood imagination. Having said that, I think they've also got a better grip on the story-related aspect of things. Based on what I've seen from kids playing and adults playing, kids are more likely to be the ones to ask if they can be royalty, or if they can have a weird pet, or if they can be a super hero or something. They're also the players I see who are more eager to invent story elements that the DM hasn't gotten to explaining yet. I can't say if that's the "more fertile imagination of youth!" or if it's adults who are too used to just having to follow the rules they're given or if it's something else entirely, but it does seem to be there, and it can be a lot of fun to work with.

[Pleh]

I'm surprised you didn't mention the problems a few months back with people making videos that look harmless and designed for kids in the thumbnail and first few seconds (to trick parents and algorithm filters) only to harbor adult themes and disturbing content later in the video, creating a danger of kids starting with great videos getting served inappropriate material via AI auto play selection.

@Segev: actually, you're talking about high power level, not necessarily heavy crunch.

The advantages they seek might happen to be mechanical, but even your examples aren't very complex ("my shield turns you into frogs"). People who like 3.5 are seeking mechanical complexity in addition to power.

The problem with 3.5 isn't power floors and cieling, but the prohibitive "learn the path to power" system of character creation.

All the kids really want is to be way over leveled with respect to their enemies. You can be overleveled at level 1 if your boss battles are CR 1/4.