possible side effets of illusions

[kulosle]

So I'm running a campaign and currently one of my players is cursed by an illusion that has him looking like a goblin all the time. Normally he is a skulk. I think by raw the illusion doesn't effect anything but it feels like it should. like how would the skulks camouflage work if there is an illusion covering it up. does he get a bonus to hide from being smaller. Is there any other unforeseen consequences of being covered up by an illusion? mostly I want to know what people feel like would be the most fun. should I just leave all the numbers alone?

[BowStreetRunner]

Is there a specific illusion spell that the curse is based on? It would help to know what kind of illusion spell it is, particularly whether it is a figment, glamer, pattern, phantasm, or shadow, as those all work slightly differently.

[kulosle]

I hadn't really thought of that. I'm not overly familiar with what the difference is. I've been having it be a mind affecting spell. the players have already made the save by now and can see through it. but any random guard that he might be sneaking by hasn't interacted with him and wouldn't get a save. I think that means its a glamour right?

Edit: I didn't really base it off of a spell. just thought it would be an interesting curse for stealing a cursed items.

[Deophaun]

I hadn't really thought of that. I'm not overly familiar with what the difference is. I've been having it be a mind affecting spell. the players have already made the save by now and can see through it. but any random guard that he might be sneaking by hasn't interacted with him and wouldn't get a save. I think that means its a glamour right?
Mind-effecting illusions would be a phantasm or a pattern, which makes this curse really, really weird, as it's acting like a glamer, which are not mind-affecting. When you think about it, you're having this curse cast another spell on everyone who views the target to make them think the target looks like the thing, as opposed to just making the target look like the thing. If the viewer has SR, it should apply.

[daremetoidareyo]

This really depends on how rules-based you want this to be. A good compromise is that the skulk abilities make it look like the goblin is disappearing, if witnessed. That way you aren't screwing over the players agency.

[Psyren]

Rule #1 for creating custom effects is to pick an existing spell that's close and say "it works like that, except..." That will solve 90% of your problems when adjudicating corner cases and things like that.

Rule #2 is the "DM's best friend" rule (DMG 30.) If you're not sure how something new works, stick a +2 or -2 circumstance mod on it and keep the game moving.

With these rules in mind, let's look at your effect. It's an illusion that moves with the player, it lasts a long time (I'm assuming permanent until he can decurse it), it makes them look like another creature, folks who interact with him get a save to see through it while folks who don't, don't. For me, the best bet as a base effect would be Veil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/veil.htm), so just say it works like that (minus the duration and the fact that he's the only one affected, of course.)

As for whether he should get a hiding bonus, that's where rule 2 comes in. A +2 Circumstance to hide seems appropriate; he's smaller, so that suggests a bonus. However, rather than dig through the books to figure out exactly what his size bonuses should be or whether you should add anything for his apparent race or whatnot, just say that he's in an unfamiliar form so he may not be able to use it to his best potential; say he's probably going to need a month or more under that curse to fully acclimatize to it, which gives you plenty of time to figure out if the +2 is working the way you want it to. It's fast, it's effective, and it's easy to change later if you want to.

[kulosle]

oh I like veil. That is what I'm going for. so is veil not mind affecting? that feels strange but okay.

so what about if someone is trying to shoot him. does he get a plus 1 size bonus cause the archer is aiming at a smaller target?

[BowStreetRunner]

oh I like veil. That is what I'm going for. so is veil not mind affecting? that feels strange but okay.

so what about if someone is trying to shoot him. does he get a plus 1 size bonus cause the archer is aiming at a smaller target?So the actual AC of the skulk character isn't affected by the spell, but any time someone interacts with the illusion they would receive a Will save to see through the glamer. Basically they're noticing that they are shooting at a small target but the actual result of their shot is more like they hit or missed a medium target.

[Psyren]

oh I like veil. That is what I'm going for. so is veil not mind affecting? that feels strange but okay.

It's no more mind-affecting than a hologram or a picture would be.


so what about if someone is trying to shoot him. does he get a plus 1 size bonus cause the archer is aiming at a smaller target?

He's actually bigger than the glamer right? If anything, they should be hitting him more often than they think they would, because they're aiming at a more difficult target. And BowStreetRunner is correct, every single shot the archer fires at him should be giving them free will saves to realize something is up.

[kulosle]

okay yeah that all makes sense. Thank you. Just wanted to make sure I didn't miss anything before I next session.

[Jay R]

And BowStreetRunner is correct, every single shot the archer fires at him should be giving them free will saves to realize something is up.

I would say that if the archer hit him, and wouldn't have if he actually had the +4 AC bonus, then they would get the will save. There's no reason to get a will save if the shot missed, and would have missed anyway.

[BowStreetRunner]

I would say that if the archer hit him, and wouldn't have if he actually had the +4 AC bonus, then they would get the will save. There's no reason to get a will save if the shot missed, and would have missed anyway.While I agree that an archer actually missing when the archer would have missed the illusory target as well would probably not be sufficient to count as interaction (otherwise I could just shoot in the other direction entirely and say I missed, give me my saving throw), I would say that any other outcome would constitute interaction - missing in actuality when you should have hit the illusion, hitting when you should have missed, or even hitting when you should have hit. In the latter instance - hitting in actuality when you would have hit the illusion - you can think of it as "I hit him in the knee, but he's acting like I hit him in the shin..."

[Psyren]

I would say that if the archer hit him, and wouldn't have if he actually had the +4 AC bonus, then they would get the will save. There's no reason to get a will save if the shot missed, and would have missed anyway.

I think firing at it, miss or not, would give you the will save. That is RAW how it works in Pathfinder anyway.

[denthor]

I would not say every shot. Give one saving throw per encounter for a group then randomly select who see it as it is. Then if it is communicated (link to DM should be avoided).

Also once the illusion is defeated. Skulk abilities kick in. So the player wants it gone. 2nd effect 20% miss chance if failed saving throw. In older edition 2nd skulks were nasty. They have been toned down.

[BowStreetRunner]

The skulk's other racial abilities are a bit more problematic than their size. Normally I would allow the character their normal abilities, but any time their abilities allow them to do something that their illusory appearance wouldn't be able to do, it would allow a will save for interaction. (For instance if a character had wings but appeared as a creature without wings, they could fly but anyone seeing them fly would immediately get a will save.)

The problem here is that most of a skulk's abilities are stealth related. So I am not sure I would give someone a will save just because they're walking around and don't detect the skulk, even if they would have detected the goblin. :smallamused: That would be just a bit absurd.

"Roll a will save. You made it? Great. You do not think that the skulk that you didn't detect is actually a goblin."

There might be exceptions. For instance casting a detection spell that would normally ping on the goblin but don't because of the skulk's nondetection might allow a save if they are standing right there casting on the skulk/goblin.

[Jay R]

"Roll a will save. You made it? Great. You do not think that the skulk that you didn't detect is actually a goblin."

Oh, well said. You have made your point clear and obvious. Nicely done.

[liquidformat]

He's actually bigger than the glamer right? If anything, they should be hitting him more often than they think they would, because they're aiming at a more difficult target. And BowStreetRunner is correct, every single shot the archer fires at him should be giving them free will saves to realize something is up.

I don't think I completely agree with this because of some weird interactions going on. Yes you should technically be hitting more often if shooting was random or if you were a horrible shot, however, in reality you should be missing more and often doing less damage than you think you should have. If we make this a bit more realistic say you aim for a head shot on the illusory goblin and you hit it perfectly, however the goblin is enough shorter than a skulk that you just shot between his legs....

Because of the fact that you can aim for parts of its body that aren't actually where you think they are says to me there should be an inherent miss chance. Sure if I aim for his head and shoot a bit high I should end up with a torso shot but if I aim for an arm I could hit air because his arm is a couple of feet higher. There would be similarly weird things going on in melee if you are trying to stab something that is almost double the size you think it is. I also question whether the skulk should be getting an attack bonus against enemies who can see him but have failed their will save/ haven't rolled yet. Since he appears to be stabbing me in the knee but is actually trying to stab me in the chest.

There are also questions as to what constitutes interacting with. If the skulk/goblin is playing with a coin flicking it in the air does a random passer by who happens to see the coin magically disappearing feet above the goblin's head and appearing in his hand then the instant it leaves his hand it once more appears feet above his head get a will save for interacting with the skulk. Also if they fail do they ignore this strange physics or just think it is a cool magic trick?

[Psyren]

^ I would only apply the "headshot flying between the gap between the legs" ruling if the archer was going for a Called Shot, and even then I would use rule #2 above to apply a circumstance penalty to that specific called shot attempt. The Veil spell grants neither concealment nor cover on its own.

As for "interacting with" - this isn't a Pathfinder thread, but their ruling in Ultimate Intrigue is what I would go with in my games. It's OGL so I'll repost it here:


Disbelief and Interaction: All three of the {Illusion subschools} tend to have saving throw lines that say “Will disbelief,” but they differ in how those saving throws apply. Phantasms directly assail a creature’s mind, so the creature automatically and immediately receives a saving throw to disbelieve a phantasm. Figments and glamers, however, have the more difficult-to-adjudicate rule that creatures receive a saving throw to disbelieve only if they “interact” with the illusion.

But what does it mean to interact with an illusion? It can’t just mean looking at the illusion, as otherwise there would be no need to make the distinction, but drawing the line can be a bit tricky. Fortunately, the rules can help to define that difference. A creature that spends a move action to carefully study an illusion receives a Will saving throw to disbelieve that illusion, so that is a good benchmark from which to work.

Using that as a basis, interacting generally means spending a move action, standard action, or greater on a character’s part. For example, if there were a major image of an ogre, a character who tried to attack the ogre would receive a saving throw to disbelieve, as would a character who spent 1 minute attempting a Diplomacy check on the ogre. A character who just traded witty banter with the ogre as a free action would not, nor would a character who simply cast spells on herself or her allies and never directly confronted the illusory ogre. For a glamer, interacting generally works the same as for a figment, except that the interaction must be limited to something the glamer affects. For instance, grabbing a creature’s ear would be an interaction for a human using disguise self to appear as an elf, but not for someone using a glamer to change his hair color. Similarly, visually studying someone would not grant a save against a glamer that purely changed her voice.

Above is RAW for Pathfinder rather than 3.5, but to me it makes perfect sense and would be applied regardless of system.

[Talanic]

I know the question is more about rules, but I'm imagining the locals developing a legend about the sneaky-as-hell "ghost goblin" who can disappear at a moment's notice.

If few make their saves then the player character might gain notoriety as a goblin. Maybe even learning the goblin tongue and rolling with it. Getting approached by goblins bearing plot threads. Using disguise skills to confuse anyone who sees through the illusion and keeping everything going until it's time to get out of the business for good.

[liquidformat]

^ I would only apply the "headshot flying between the gap between the legs" ruling if the archer was going for a Called Shot, and even then I would use rule #2 above to apply a circumstance penalty to that specific called shot attempt. The Veil spell grants neither concealment nor cover on its own.


I still don't think that makes sense even a normal shot at a smaller target or melee attack would have some inherent issues since what you are aiming for isn't where you think it is which scream miss chance at me. You are aiming your sword to strike my torso but in fact that is my leg and much quicker to move out of the way than my entire torso, or like I said earlier the opposite is true to since I would appear to be attacking your knees but the hit is going at your chest. It makes no sense what so ever that if my physical body is dramatically different in size than others perceive me to be that their would be no change in the inherent interaction between the two of us.

Let's say instead I am a halfling that has now been glamored with the illusion of a cloud giant. If that same archer is shooting at the cloud giant, should he not have a miss chance because I am actually only taking up the space of the giant's foot? Further more my body that is about the same size as the giants foot is actually standing between the giant's two feet and the illusion is be projected out from there. No shot that would hit the giant should be able to hit me as the halfling standing between the giant illusion's feet. But by your logic that is worth a -2 to attack...

This seems like a situation where said glamored character should be given a miss chance for any attack that is made against it. And enemies should be treated as flat footed against their attacks since where attacks appear to be coming from and going are not in fact where they are coming from or going. At the same time anyone who attacks or is attacked by said character should also be getting a pretty sizable bonus to their Will save to disbelieve.

[kulosle]

see I agree it feels like it should do a lot but by raw it doesnt. I don't think you can have it give miss chance because that would imply that it's giving you concealment. which I guess it kind of is. But then you'd be able to hide behind the illusion which makes no sense.

[liquidformat]

see I agree it feels like it should do a lot but by raw it doesnt. I don't think you can have it give miss chance because that would imply that it's giving you concealment. which I guess it kind of is. But then you'd be able to hide behind the illusion which makes no sense.

aren't you technically hiding behind/in the illusion? If you are bigger than what other perceive then part of you is hidden, or if the illusion is much bigger than you you are also hidden inside of it. Like the halfling showing as a giant, is the halfling actually inside one of the giant's feet, is he between the feet?

[Psyren]

I still don't think that makes sense even a normal shot at a smaller target or melee attack would have some inherent issues since what you are aiming for isn't where you think it is which scream miss chance at me.

No offense, but I've said my piece and convincing you was never my goal. You can rule it however you like, just like I will.