Shivering Touch is OP

[skunk3]

Just as the title says. Wow, what an OP spell.

[Segev]

I’ll play along: what makes you say that?

[heavyfuel]

Just as the title says. Wow, what an OP spell.

Yup. Sure is.


I’ll play along: what makes you say that?

Are we really playing devil's advocate that the 3rd level spell that one shots about two thirds of the Monster Manual plus most NPCs isn't OP? Especially if Maximized (lesser rod or DMM or whatever)

Ok then.

[BowStreetRunner]

I’ll play along: what makes you say that?You mean besides being a touch attack with no save that can potentially render the target helpless in one shot, right?

Yeah, a lot of people think Shivering Touch is OP. I honestly think 2d6 ability score damage at 3rd level would be a bit more balanced, and still good enough that people would use it.

[Segev]

I more was posting that for two reasons:

1) I don't actually know what the spell does, and
2) I wasn't sure what the point of this thread was.

Elaborating on (2), I wasn't sure if he had a particular story behind his inspiration to post it, or just was feeling like calling out something he felt people would agree with him on, or was looking for an argument on a controversial topic, or what.

[heavyfuel]

I think this is a post born of frustration. Maybe he was DMing and a player one-shot his awesome dragon or he's a Fighter and the Cleric is steamrolling encounters with the spell and he feels useless.

[BowStreetRunner]

I more was posting that for two reasons:

1) I don't actually know what the spell does, and
2) I wasn't sure what the point of this thread was.

Elaborating on (2), I wasn't sure if he had a particular story behind his inspiration to post it, or just was feeling like calling out something he felt people would agree with him on, or was looking for an argument on a controversial topic, or what.That's what you get for 'playing along'! lol

But I'd like to know more about the inspiration behind the OP as well.

[tyckspoon]

I more was posting that for two reasons:

1) I don't actually know what the spell does, and


Touch attack for 3d6 Dex damage as a 3rd level spell. The majority of D&D's monsters are big bruiser types, which means this is a serious debuff to probable knockout, going to guaranteed knockout against huge chunk of the Monster Manual if you can put a Maximize on it. Which is fairly cheap to do, since it's only a 3rd level spell - it can be affected by Lesser metamagic rods.

[Cosi]

shivering touch is broken because ability damage is broken. Lethal ability damage is an instant win that often feels incredibly cheap because what creatures have stats low enough to be killed by what type of damage is essentially arbitrary, and non-lethal ability damage is mostly pointless unless it's CON damage (in which case it just behaves like regular damage) or you're hitting a caster's primary stat. This is particularly amplified against dragons, because dragons tend to be under CR-ed by a fair margin, meaning that shivering touch looks even better relative to other options.

[Teaguethebean]

I was reading on the spell and it seems the helpless state only lasts 1 round/level meaning not an instant kill am i reading this right

[flappeercraft]

I was reading on the spell and it seems the helpless state only lasts 1 round/level meaning not an instant kill am i reading this right

That's not how ability damage works. The 1 round/level has been discussed quite a bit about and the arguments vary with some being this ability damage in specific lasted that long, that all your touch attacks have the effect of shivering touch for the duration, that it's the limit for holding the charge so you only use it once within the duration and that it should be dismissed since it makes no sense in there among others.

Edit: I love being a ninja

[BowStreetRunner]

shivering touch is broken because ability damage is broken. Lethal ability damage is an instant win that often feels incredibly cheap because what creatures have stats low enough to be killed by what type of damage is essentially arbitrary, and non-lethal ability damage is mostly pointless unless it's CON damage (in which case it just behaves like regular damage) or you're hitting a caster's primary stat. This is particularly amplified against dragons, because dragons tend to be under CR-ed by a fair margin, meaning that shivering touch looks even better relative to other options.Lethal ability damage...non-lethal ability damage...??? Do you mean Ability Damage and Ability Drain?


I was reading on the spell and it seems the helpless state only lasts 1 round/level meaning not an instant kill am i reading this rightThat is a point that has been debated previously elsewhere in the forums. Ability Damage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#abilityDamage) is recovered at a rate of 1 point per day. Touch spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#standardCastaSpell) normally once cast can be held until a touch is made or another spell is cast. Most touch spells with a duration have an effect that lasts from the time the touch occurs until the duration expires. Shivering Touch is strange because the only effect mentioned besides the ability damage is the numbness. So the question most asked is: does the duration apply to the ability damage (which would be a strange exception) or to the time within which the touch must be made (which would be a strange exception) or to the fluff effect (which would be a strange exception)?

[Cosi]

Lethal ability damage...non-lethal ability damage...??? Do you mean Ability Damage and Ability Drain?

Lethal in amount, not kind. Every kind of ability damage (except CON, which just instantly kills you) leaves you helpless if it reduces the relevant stat to 0, at which point you get hit with coup de grace attempts until you die. If it doesn't reduce the stat to zero, you take penalties you mostly don't care about. Compare, for example, the effect of hitting an Ogre with a ray of stupidity to the effect of hitting a Dire Ape with a ray of stupidity. In one case, you instantly win the combat. In the other, you inflict single digit penalties to things the Ogre isn't even going to roll.

This is also why the duration issue doesn't matter. Even if shivering touch completely disappears after 1 round per level, that's still at least five rounds of the Dragon getting smacked with coup de grace attempts from the entire party.

[BowStreetRunner]

Lethal in amount, not kind. Every kind of ability damage (except CON, which just instantly kills you) leaves you helpless if it reduces the relevant stat to 0, at which point you get hit with coup de grace attempts until you die. If it doesn't reduce the stat to zero, you take penalties you mostly don't care about. Compare, for example, the effect of hitting an Ogre with a ray of stupidity to the effect of hitting a Dire Ape with a ray of stupidity. In one case, you instantly win the combat. In the other, you inflict single digit penalties to things the Ogre isn't even going to roll.

This is also why the duration issue doesn't matter. Even if shivering touch completely disappears after 1 round per level, that's still at least five rounds of the Dragon getting smacked with coup de grace attempts from the entire party.Got it. So you're saying the difference between a -5 penalty from a DEX of 1 on the one hand and Helplessness on the other is a huge difference. You'll get no argument from me on that point!

[King of Nowhere]

I would never allow that as a DM. I would never attempt to use it as a player, unless the DM was consistently using it.

What were the developers thinking? a 3rd level spell with no save and a realistic chance to render helpless a wirm dragon?

[frogglesmash]

I would never allow that as a DM. I would never attempt to use it as a player, unless the DM was consistently using it.

What were the developers thinking? a 3rd level spell with no save and a realistic chance to render helpless a wirm dragon?

It seems to me that the devs intended for it to be a penalty, not actual damage, but even if you run it like that, the aforementioned 5 rounds of coups de Graces is pretty dang lethal.

Edit: Along the same lines there's Lahm's Finger Darts which is a 2nd level spell that is functionally identical to magic missile, but deals Dex damage with no save. The only downsides being that you take one point of str damage and lose one finger per dart, but the fingers come back at the same rate as the str, and therefore, are not a major loss. Oh, and the spell is evil.

[Buufreak]

It seems to me that the devs intended for it to be a penalty, not actual damage, but even if you run out like that, the aforementioned 5 rounds of coups de Graces is pretty dang lethal.

That's really been my sorta fix all along. Penalty for appropriate rounds. Still lethal, but I find less headache and table talk.

[Deophaun]

It seems to me that the devs intended for it to be a penalty, not actual damage, but even if you run it like that, the aforementioned 5 rounds of coups de Graces is pretty dang lethal.
Penalties cannot reduce a stat below 1, so if you run it like that it turns out to just be a minor debuff to dragons as opposed to an open invitation to murder.

[Doctor Awkward]

That is a point that has been debated previously elsewhere in the forums. Ability Damage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#abilityDamage) is recovered at a rate of 1 point per day. Touch spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#standardCastaSpell) normally once cast can be held until a touch is made or another spell is cast. Most touch spells with a duration have an effect that lasts from the time the touch occurs until the duration expires. Shivering Touch is strange because the only effect mentioned besides the ability damage is the numbness. So the question most asked is: does the duration apply to the ability damage (which would be a strange exception) or to the time within which the touch must be made (which would be a strange exception) or to the fluff effect (which would be a strange exception)?

The duration listed in Shivering Touch is definitely how long the ability damage lasts.

Compare Shivering Touch to both Poison (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/poison.htm), which also deals ability score damage and has a duration of instantaneous. If Shivering Touch were meant to function the same way, it would have the same duration.

The general rule on "holding the charge" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#duration) on touch spells is that once you finished casting you may hold it indefinitely. So if that duration is meant to be an exception to that rule, it would have been called out as such in the spell description.

Still, even three uninterrupted rounds should be enough for a party to slaughter whatever it is fighting with repeated coup-de-grace attempts.


If you have players that are successfully abusing this, use white dragons. Or silver ones. Or literally anything combined with the ritual from Savage Species to give it the cold subtype. Or (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType) things (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#constructType) immune (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tarrasque.htm) to ability damage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#nonabilities).

[KillianHawkeye]

Penalties cannot reduce a stat below 1, so if you run it like that it turns out to just be a minor debuff to dragons as opposed to an open invitation to murder.

I don't think that's a general rule. Ray of enfeeblement, and maybe some other spells have a specific limit about not reducing an ability score below 1, but I don't think shivering touch has any such limit.

[Deophaun]

I don't think that's a general rule. Ray of enfeeblement, and maybe some other spells have a specific limit about not reducing an ability score below 1, but I don't think shivering touch has any such limit.
Hmm. Seems you are right. Now I need to find a list of creatures with a Str or Dex of two or less than I can take out with kelgore's gravemist.

Edit: RIP oozes and swarms.

[137beth]

It's a very powerful spell. On the other hand, there are a lot of ways to get immunity to ability damage, and the fact that Shivering Touch is a single-target spell with a range of touch puts it at a disadvantage compared to some other spells in the game. It's certainly not a spell you want in a game where a caster is supposed to be a roughly equal teammate with a fighter who just hits things, but it isn't going to completely break a campaign the way early-access Ice Assassins would.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The only way to read the RAW without misrepresenting it or houseruling it (unintentionally or no) is that a creature you touch for 1 round/lvl takes cold-based ability damage (Dex). It doesn't say it's discharged when you touch something. It deals ability damage, which follows normal ability damage rules (that is, it is permanent until healed, either naturally or magically). And it lasts for a duration greater than instantaneous, so you don't cast with a touch and then forget about it. You just keep dealing Dex damage with every touch attack, round after round after round.

Everyone used to think shivering touch was extremely powerful before that little fact was brought up. Now? Sheesh.

[RoboEmperor]

shivering touch is noob bait. No self respecting dragon would ever be hit by that (scintillating scales).

In addition, too many things render it worthless to devote a build on it.

So unless your build already relies mostly on reach spell, the spell is worthless except against inexperienced DMs. However if your build does rely mostly on reach spell, then grabbing Shivering Touch to dispatch non-undead mooks is not a bad idea.

[sleepyphoenixx]

shivering touch is noob bait. No self respecting dragon would ever be hit by that (scintillating scales).

In addition, too many things render it worthless to devote a build on it.

So unless you're build already relies mostly on reach spell, the spell is worthless except against inexperienced DMs. However if your build does rely mostly on reach spell, then grabbing Shivering Touch to dispatch non-undead mooks is not a bad idea.

Spectral Hand is your friend. No need to get Reach Spell.
Or use your familiar to deliver it (assuming it can survive getting that close to a dragon, otherwise don't). Or dump it into your fighters Spell-Storing weapon.
Point is there are plenty of ways to use touch spells at range without taking a rather situational feat.

And no one devotes a build to Shivering Touch. That'd be silly.
They just scribe it in their spellbook and prepare it when they know they're facing a (non-cold subtype) dragon or similar opponent. Or use it with Uncanny Forethought.

I'm not one of the people screaming about how OP it is, but lets not go too far in the other direction. It's a good spell in a variety of situations.
Sure, it's not the guaranteed one-shot dragon killer it's hailed as (SR is a thing and dragons have spells too). Sure, it has its counters. But pretty much all spells do. That doesn't make them worthless.

[RoboEmperor]

Spectral Hand is your friend. No need to get Reach Spell.

I do tend to exaggerate.

Spectral Hand in my experience is far too fragile to do anything beyond low levels. Even without a readied action the slightest of AoEs break it. That's why I grab reach spell if I want to use touch spells, because reach spell is infallible (apart from landing the touch attack).

[sleepyphoenixx]

I do tend to exaggerate.

Spectral Hand in my experience is far too fragile to do anything beyond low levels. Even without a readied action the slightest of AoEs break it. That's why I grab reach spell if I want to use touch spells, because reach spell is infallible (apart from landing the touch attack).

Reach Spell also costs a feat and needs you to stand in charge range. Aside from the +2 spell level cost of course.
Standing within 30ft of a dragon is slightly better in the sense that it won't be getting AoO's or full attacking you on its next turn (probably), but it's still a lot closer than i'd like to be. The slot cost just seals it for me.

I'll take the alleged fragility (it does have Imp Evasion and uses your saves, in addition to being incorporeal and having decent AC) of Spectral Hand, thanks.

[RoboEmperor]

Reach Spell also costs a feat and needs you to stand in charge range. Aside from the +2 spell level cost of course.
Standing within 30ft of a dragon is slightly better in the sense that it won't be getting AoO's or full attacking you on its next turn (probably), but it's still a lot closer than i'd like to be. The slot cost just seals it for me.

I'll take the alleged fragility (it does have Imp Evasion and uses your saves, in addition to being incorporeal and having decent AC) of Spectral Hand, thanks.

We're talking mages right? Ref save isn't exactly reliable. So it's gonna go... pre-buff cast spectral hand, some aoe kills it, you cast spectral hand again, another aoe kills it because the DM put an AoE spellcaster in the challenge solely to piss you off, you cast spectral hand again... at which point you decide NOPE, no spectral hand.

It does depend on use. A build that relies mostly on touch spells ain't gonna like spectral hand. On the other hand, a BFC wizard (conjuration specialist) would prefer spectral hand because he's only gonna bring it out after the opposition is no longer a threat to him and his spectral hand (walled off/fogged the caster).

Obviously a build revolving around reach spell is gonna have metamagic reducers. But as I keep saying, you need to devote a build to reach spell and if you do it will be superior to spectral hand in every way. Or alternatively, the Archmage PrC if you can get to high level.

[Deophaun]

We're talking mages right? Ref save isn't exactly reliable. So it's gonna go
I don't get how. Most spells that force a reflex save require line of effect with some spill-over from bursts or emmanations. A spectral hand just requires line of sight and an unblocked path. If you're making use of spectral hand, I don't know why you wouldn't take advantage of that.

[Segev]

While I agree that Max du Rarity's interpretation seems like the strictest RAW reading, the RAI also seems pretty clear to me. A 3rd level spell with a duration of rounds probably means that the damage persists only for that duration. Still powerful, but not the end of the world.

If you want to see how to counter it, give it to some of your own spellcasters and watch a party adapt.

[Elkad]

At L8 with a 22int, Spectral Hand will have AC28. CR11 Blue Dragon hits it on a base roll of 10. Plus incorporeal miss chance. Between missing and miss chance, it's getting to the target 75% of the time.

Since it's visible and has to move to the target, it's possible the dragon gets an AoO against it.
If you are 150' from the Dragon (trying to stay out of charge range - smart for a wizard), and you hold the hand 150' behind yourself, it's safe from most attacks when it isn't your turn.

If you have Invisible Spell, that should add another layer to getting it to the target though (only 1 in 8 chance of being hit).

If you are a dragon, take Magic Missile. 82% kill vs spectral hand even at CL1, and 100% at CL3. Though you may have to Ready to intercept it, since the Wizard will have a longer range than you.

Now I'm seeing an arms race where the whole party UMDs a Spectral Hand (or the illusion of one, or dangles a translucent glove from a string on a stick) before charging into combat with the dragon. Who then wastes his actions killing fake Spectral Hands instead of fighting.

Hmm. Is there a sustainable aura that does a small amount of damage to anyone (including Incorporeal, so probably Force) that enters it's radius?

[liquidformat]

On a side note, anyone know a good way to get Shivering Touch onto a duskblade?

[heavyfuel]

On a side note, anyone know a good way to get Shivering Touch onto a duskblade?

Extra Spell feat. Can't be gotten before level 13 though (which means you'll probably only get it at 15)

Getting 5 levels in Wizard and using the Wizard slots with your Arcane Channeling.

[Segev]

On a side note, anyone know a good way to get Shivering Touch onto a duskblade?

Well, just use any of the usual tactics for landing a touch spell on--oh! You mean for him to KNOW and CAST it!

Extra Spell, maybe? It'd take DM permission, but honestly, with so controversial a spell, you're going to want that anyway.

[Deophaun]

A drake helm (Explorer's Handbook) is the most direct way, but not the cheapest. You can also UMD a knowstone.

[RoboEmperor]

If you are a dragon, take Magic Missile. 82% kill vs spectral hand even at CL1, and 100% at CL3. Though you may have to Ready to intercept it, since the Wizard will have a longer range than you.

If a dragon readies his action to take it out, the wizard won. A 4 v 1 fight and the 1 wastes an action to ready against a spectral hand is... well... No, the dragon has to take out the spectral hand with an AoE spell so it hits everyone too not just the hand.

I remember now, AoO was the main thing that made me give up on the spell. Though, if I'm being honest, our group didn't really know the full power of Incorporeality so we didn't apply the 50% miss chance.

I remember the build, it was a Necrotic Cyst/Tumor sorcerer trying to implant cysts from range and spectral hand failed me miserably (I was trying to implant cysts on planar bound outsiders too).

Went Archmage because I was only interested in Necrotic Tumor so it wasn't a build that relied on Reach Spell.

So... spectral hand is investment free, but has a 50% chance of failure, not something you'd rely on. There's a reason no one incurs even a 10% arcane spell failure chance.

[Elkad]

On a side note, anyone know a good way to get Shivering Touch onto a duskblade?

UMD (cross-class, apprentice feat, dip cleric for Magic domain, Able Learner, etc ).
Ring of Spell Storing?
Custom Spell Research? It fits Duskblade flavor reasonably-well, I'd probably let it fly at my table.

[Skevvix]

A drake helm (Explorer's Handbook) is the most direct way, but not the cheapest. You can also UMD a knowstone.

AFB, but doesn't the duskblade cast from a set list? Knowstones only allow you to cast a spell from your class list, so unless duskblade cast from sorc/wiz lists they won't work for him.

[Deophaun]

AFB, but doesn't the duskblade cast from a set list? Knowstones only allow you to cast a spell from your class list, so unless duskblade cast from sorc/wiz lists they won't work for him.
That is why I said you need to UMD the knowstone, to simulate having access to the wiz/sorc list. You need to make that check once every hour.

[liquidformat]

Hmm, I thought using Extra Spell feat to grab a spell not on your spell list was one of those gray areas of the rules? Too bad it isn't on a domain spell list since I could just take Arcane Disciple. UMD looks to be one of the best ways to grab it, maybe in a wand in a wand sheath inside the guisarme?

[Deophaun]

maybe in a wand in a wand sheath inside the guisarme?
Keep in mind if you go the wand route it won't be a spell you know, so you can't use it with your channeling. If that's fine (which, it's shivering touch, so yeah, it's fine) you can also use an eternal wand without UMD (and there's an argument that anyone can use an eternal wand).

[liquidformat]

good point, I always forget about the ease of restrictions on eternal wands also that will probably be cheaper long run anyways. Then again the only duskblade I am currently playing is gestalt cleric/ordained champion so it is kind of a moot point for him.

[Skevvix]

That is why I said you need to UMD the knowstone, to simulate having access to the wiz/sorc list. You need to make that check once every hour.

Ah, I need to read through all of the skill usages to re-familiarize myself with them. So would this just be a DC 21 umd or world it be 25 for 3rd level spell access?

[Deophaun]

Ah, I need to read through all of the skill usages to re-familiarize myself with them. So would this just be a DC 21 umd or world it be 25 for 3rd level spell access?
21. You're just emulating access to the list, which the classes get at first level.

[Cosi]

Hmm, I thought using Extra Spell feat to grab a spell not on your spell list was one of those gray areas of the rules?

Extra Spell is funky because it works by RAW (that is, according to the printed text in the book, you can totally grab spells from other lists), but errata (or maybe FAQ, I forget) explicitly changed it to not work. I expect a lot of DMs would allow it because the result is rarely all that impressive, but it doesn't strictly work. Also, as has been pointed out, it's kinda bad in this case because it won't come online until 15th level.

[Cosi]

21. You're just emulating access to the list, which the classes get at first level.

Note that if you do make that DC 25 check, there's a good argument that per the phrasing of the Knowstone and the example given in the PHB, you can emulate expending the spell slot. That's pretty cheesy though.

[heavyfuel]

But errata (or maybe FAQ, I forget) explicitly changed it to not work. I expect a lot of DMs would allow it because the result is rarely all that impressive, but it doesn't strictly work.

It was a FAQ, so my first instinct is to go and do the exact opposite of what it says and allow spells from other lists. I wouldn't allow Shivering Touch to work with extra spell, but that's more because Shivering Touch is banned in games

[Kelb_Panthera]

At L8 with a 22int, Spectral Hand will have AC28. CR11 Blue Dragon hits it on a base roll of 10. Plus incorporeal miss chance. Between missing and miss chance, it's getting to the target 75% of the time.

Since it's visible and has to move to the target, it's possible the dragon gets an AoO against it.
If you are 150' from the Dragon (trying to stay out of charge range - smart for a wizard), and you hold the hand 150' behind yourself, it's safe from most attacks when it isn't your turn.

If you have Invisible Spell, that should add another layer to getting it to the target though (only 1 in 8 chance of being hit).

If you are a dragon, take Magic Missile. 82% kill vs spectral hand even at CL1, and 100% at CL3. Though you may have to Ready to intercept it, since the Wizard will have a longer range than you.

Now I'm seeing an arms race where the whole party UMDs a Spectral Hand (or the illusion of one, or dangles a translucent glove from a string on a stick) before charging into combat with the dragon. Who then wastes his actions killing fake Spectral Hands instead of fighting.

Hmm. Is there a sustainable aura that does a small amount of damage to anyone (including Incorporeal, so probably Force) that enters it's radius?

I get the distinct impression you're not solid on how incorporeality works.

Unless the blue has magically enhanced his attack, either with magic claw-caps (I think that was a thing) or a casting of magic weapon, he has -no- chance of hitting the spectral hand. Even in the case that his claw is enhanced, hitting on a 10 with the incorporeal miss chance is a 27.5% chance to hit rather than a 75% chance.

The breath attack is a coin-flip but you can't AoO with it normally.

Magic missile is a force effect. It just mercs the hand since the minimum damage of two missiles is 4 and that's the max for the hand.

[Elkad]

I get the distinct impression you're not solid on how incorporeality works.

Unless the blue has magically enhanced his attack, either with magic claw-caps (I think that was a thing) or a casting of magic weapon, he has -no- chance of hitting the spectral hand. Even in the case that his claw is enhanced, hitting on a 10 with the incorporeal miss chance is a 27.5% chance to hit rather than a 75% chance.

The breath attack is a coin-flip but you can't AoO with it normally.

Magic missile is a force effect. It just mercs the hand since the minimum damage of two missiles is 4 and that's the max for the hand.

You read my percentage backwards. 75% chance of the hand getting past the AoO (rounded badly, couldn't be bothered to do half of 55% hit chance).
As to not hitting it at all with base claws, I claim a long history of HD counting as magic weapons in earlier editions, so I always forget they sometimes don't in this newfangled 3.5 stuff.

Not sure why you brought magic missile up, what you said agreed with me. 13/16 chance of a kill with 1 missile. Guaranteed with 2.

[RoboEmperor]

Extra Spell is funky because it works by RAW (that is, according to the printed text in the book, you can totally grab spells from other lists), but errata (or maybe FAQ, I forget) explicitly changed it to not work. I expect a lot of DMs would allow it because the result is rarely all that impressive, but it doesn't strictly work. Also, as has been pointed out, it's kinda bad in this case because it won't come online until 15th level.

The entire point of Wyrm Wizard and Recaster is to grab spells not on your spell list and they come with loss of spellcasting levels on top of feat and skill taxes. So to claim that one feat renders these PrCs completely and totally obsolete is RAI is clearly wrong.

Also it's not RAW. The level of "RAW" rule lawyering required to get that ruling is the same level of rule lawyering as saying "Shades lets you mimic any conjuration spell, including ones that are not summoning or creation" because it didn't say "creation" or "summoning" spells when it says it is identical to shadow conjuration except up to 8th level conjuration spells.

d&d has been consistent in adding "from any spell list" when something lets you grab a spell from any spell list. Extra Spell lacks such language.

[Cosi]

Lots of stuff exists that is better than other stuff. Warblades are substantially better than Fighters, but no one says we should assume that Warblades aren't RAI.

[zergling.exe]

I get the distinct impression you're not solid on how incorporeality works.

Unless the blue has magically enhanced his attack, either with magic claw-caps (I think that was a thing) or a casting of magic weapon, he has -no- chance of hitting the spectral hand. Even in the case that his claw is enhanced, hitting on a 10 with the incorporeal miss chance is a 27.5% chance to hit rather than a 75% chance.

The breath attack is a coin-flip but you can't AoO with it normally.

Magic missile is a force effect. It just mercs the hand since the minimum damage of two missiles is 4 and that's the max for the hand.

The Incorporeal subtype glossary entry says:

magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons,
Doesn't a creature that has DR/magic strike as a magic weapon or am I reading that wrong? The Damage Reduction entry says it's for the purpose of overcoming DR only, but the specific wording of Incorporeal wouldn't make much sense without reading that, since a natural weapon that has a +1 bonus on it from magic fang or +1 claw-caps would BE a magic weapon, and not "creatures that strike as magic weapons".

[flappeercraft]

The entire point of Wyrm Wizard and Recaster is to grab spells not on your spell list and they come with loss of spellcasting levels on top of feat and skill taxes. So to claim that one feat renders these PrCs completely and totally obsolete is RAI is clearly wrong.

Also it's not RAW. The level of "RAW" rule lawyering required to get that ruling is the same level of rule lawyering as saying "Shades lets you mimic any conjuration spell, including ones that are not summoning or creation" because it didn't say "creation" or "summoning" spells when it says it is identical to shadow conjuration except up to 8th level conjuration spells.

d&d has been consistent in adding "from any spell list" when something lets you grab a spell from any spell list. Extra Spell lacks such language.

Consider that Wyrm Wizard is from Dragon Magic, Recaster is from Races of Eberron and Extra Spell is from Complete Arcane and previously Tome and Blood, they all come from different sources. Also consider that they all have different authors and that 3.5 was super uncoordinated, the author for Complete Arcane likely did not read Races of Eberron or Dragon Magic so it's not necessarily RAI especially since WotC makes these kind of mistakes all of the time and is super inconsistent with everything.

Also it is not really rules lawyering for Extra spell to nab other spell lists


You learn one additional spell at any level up to one lower than the highest level of spell you can currently cast. Thus, a 4th-level sorcerer (maximum spell level 2nd) gains a new 0-level or 1st-level spell known with which to expand her repertoire. For classes such as wizard that have more options for learning spells, Extra Spell is generally used to learn a specifi c spell that the character lacks access to and would be unable to research.

It is literally in the description of the feat that it is used for spells one could normally not obtain which is most probably referring to other lists which can't be researched since they ar enot in the wizard list but any wizard spell could be accessible and researched.

[RoboEmperor]

It is literally in the description of the feat that it is used for spells one could normally not obtain which is most probably referring to other lists which can't be researched since they ar enot in the wizard list but any wizard spell could be accessible and researched.

By that logic you can't add any spell with Extra spell since 100% of the spells can be researched.



Independent Research

A wizard also can research a spell independently, duplicating an existing spell or creating an entirely new one.

Notice the lack of restrictions. A wizard can research an arcane version of any spell in existence, and any spell that doesn't exist, at the DM's discretion. The only spells the wizard can't research is the ones that DM says you can't. Are you saying this is a way to give the DM the finger and add an epic-level-spell effect as a 1st level spell since it's a spell the DM says you can't research?

No, the "lack access to" and "unable to research" refers to magic shops not holding those spell scrolls or lack of access to time or a metropolis to research spells.

Again, extra spell lacks the language "from any spell list" that is present in Wyrm Wizard, Recaster, and Unseen Seer. Unseen seer is in Complete Mage. If the rules go out of their way to point something out specifically, then only those that have that language may use that effect. This is the RAW argument. The RAI argument is the FAQ.

edit: For example, I asked whether you can cast Animate Objects multiple times to animate a Colossal Object in our simple RAW thread. The answer given was no and the reason is the spell Warp Wood specifically says you can warp colossal objects through multiple castings, but Animate Objects lack that language so it can't, and I fully agree with this. An example that exists that specifically went out of its way to point this interaction out is proof that other spells who lack that level of detail cannot do that. If we follow your logic, then I can animate colossal objects with multiple castings of Animate Objects because the rules didn't address the issue in Animate Objects' description regardless of whether it did in Warp Wood or not.

[liquidformat]

Lots of stuff exists that is better than other stuff. Warblades are substantially better than Fighters, but no one says we should assume that Warblades aren't RAI.

I know more DMs that won't allow anything from ToB because they believe the book is broken than I know that will allow it, so yes this is stated quite often by many people outside of charops boards...

[sleepyphoenixx]

On a side note, anyone know a good way to get Shivering Touch onto a duskblade?

Ring of Theurgy (CArc), assuming you have someone in the party who can cast it for you. Or just get it on an Eternal Wand, cast it into the ring and you can treat it as one of your spells known up to 3/day.

[Deophaun]

The Ring of Theurgy is most useful for attuning dragonshards to divine spells for use with the Drake Helm, allowing spontaneous arcane casters access to any spell in the game.