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JellyPooga
2007-09-11, 08:25 PM
What's peoples thoughts on them?

It seems to me that they're worth a little more than 1 Feat, given that the 'balancing factor' is that the DM has the option of completely taking away the benefit of it (and much more). It'd be a bit like there being a clause in the Power Attack feat saying that if you use it to much, the DM has the right to impose the penalty on attack rolls, but you stop getting the damage bonus...permanently.

Also, the rules concerning adopting someone elses Item Familiar are a little vague...if someone takes someone elses Item Familiar that has, for example, 6 ranks of Move Silently invested in it and wins the ego contest and then takes the Item Familiar feat, does he then get a +6 bonus to his Move Silently Ranks (and the associated +1 to 2 skills for having 6 ranks invested in his Item Familiar). Similarly, if the original owner had invested Life and a Spell into it, would the new owner gain the benefit, without having to pay any cost (e.g. if he were a spellcaster and there was a level 5 spell invested in the item from the original owner, would he get a bonus spell at level 5 and 3 without having to invest any of his own spells?).

This led me to think that over time, much of a character can be invested into an item in this way...perhaps even several characters worth of skills, spells and life. Is there, anywhere, rules or guidlines for becoming an intelligent item? I can easily imagine a character who has an Item Familiar investing a little too much of himself into the item, so much so that he comes to think of himself as an extension of the item, rather than the other way around. Eventually, he essentially becomes an Intelligent Item with a Human Familiar. If the Human dies, the character is still "alive" in the item. Perhaps a modification of the Item Familiar rules would be a better model for this though. Thoughts?

Mewtarthio
2007-09-11, 08:34 PM
Item familiars strike me as a little unfair to the DM. If you invest everything you can into it, you get a ton of power, but become virtually powerless without it. It's like putting your finger on the deadman's switch and shouting, "You're not taking me alive! I'm standing here and fighting, and you can either deal with it or kill me outright!" In short, he can't take your familiar because that'd be unfair to you, but he can't let you keep it because that'd be unfair to everyone else. At a glance, it just seems like a regular gamble: You make an investment, and if you lose, sucks to be you. Unfortunately, when the gains and losses are drastic and long-term, that doesn't work out so well.

Machete
2007-09-11, 08:39 PM
I like it. I have heard of a scant few games where a PC would play an item familiar of another player. Something like a mechus gunlike object. Lots of fun. I have no ideas on the rules for such but it sounds fun.

Douglas
2007-09-11, 10:11 PM
For those not aware of exactly what we're talking about, here it is (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm).

My opinion? It's ridiculously overpowered and the supposed balancing factor of what happens when you lose it is no such thing. If you want to use something like it in your game, eliminate or at least drastically reduce the penalties for losing it and then build a PrC around it. Change the benefits to depend on your levels in the PrC, not overall character level, with only a bare minimum of benefit for someone with just the feat who hasn't entered the PrC yet. Rebalance the benefits to account for the fact that they're the primary class feature of a 10-level PrC now, give the PrC some levels of "+1 level of class features of a previous class" like the Legacy Champion, or some combination of both. Oh, and get rid of the free xp benefit.

kemmotar
2007-09-11, 10:27 PM
Was this in a book?I remember looking for it but couldnt find it. The site isnt very detailed...it only says invest a portion of its life energy(i shall assume hp) in exchange for XP...how much for ho much?Same with spell DCs etc...any ideas where i can find it? Also what would you think about a kensai with an item familiar?Sure the weapon would practically be his whole life but i think it could work nicely with a really high Con score..

Trade hp for xp and them use the xp to enchant the weapon:smallbiggrin:
might actually end up with even more xp than you started and a really good weapon:smallamused:
Hp loss can easily be made up for in better defences (since you dont need gp to enchant your weapon you might as well use it to better your defences)

Alleine
2007-09-11, 10:34 PM
I like the general concept of it, but I wouldn't invest much in it. It reminds me too much of Sauron, invest nearly everything in the ring and when its gone, so are you.

Douglas
2007-09-11, 10:41 PM
Was this in a book?I remember looking for it but couldnt find it.
Unearthed Arcana, I believe.


The site isnt very detailed...it only says invest a portion of its life energy(i shall assume hp) in exchange for XP...how much for ho much?
The "investing" part of that only means that some of your xp is now attached to the item and is lost along with the item if that ever happens. It's straight up, 10% extra xp for no cost but the feat. The only downside is what happens when you lose the item.


Same with spell DCs etc...any ideas where i can find it?
Same as for xp. The item familiar doesn't actually get a spell to cast, you just add a spell slot to the things you lose if the item goes away. In return for this added risk, you get a bonus spell slot yourself. Once again, there is no cost but the feat and the extra purely potential penalty.

Jacob Orlove
2007-09-12, 12:38 AM
If you really want to make your DM cry, make your spellbook into your item familiar. It's win-win!

Edit: btw, I strongly suggest not using item familiars (or spellbooks) in real games.

Dr. Weasel
2007-09-12, 01:21 AM
I've actually seen the feat used to good effect. The DM gave it to all players free and didn't give anyone any further magic items (actually I think someone got a ring somewhere and that was a big deal). We could enhance them any way we wanted with the proper cost in exp and no gold (I think the equasion we used was [Base Item Cost]x.08 in experience). This achieved a low-magic setting without causing the DM to stoop to drop soon-to-be-obscelete +1 weapons on the party. I remember the DM had an obscene amount of paperwork, but the result was just fun (I think my Bard had a lute of Perform +5, Feather-Falling, Sustenance, Deflection +2,Dexterity +2, Charisma +4 and Call Lightning 3/day, CL 5).

kemmotar
2007-09-12, 04:40 AM
Nice lute mate:smallwink:

really nice feat imo...just find a way for the item to never leave your person, maybe curse it so that nobody else can use it except you and anyone else who tries takes negative levels or damage...that should stop it from gettingn stolen...one more thing i thought of was an item that is integrated with your body, maybe something as unobtrusive as a piercing or something you actually place within your body...try stealing that:smalltongue:

I dont know how this might affect spellcasting but it wouldnt interfere in any of its other abilities and the DM would have to hack through your dead body to find and remove it which would probably leave you dead anyway...so no (further) harm done...dead men need no xp:smallwink:

AKA_Bait
2007-09-12, 11:14 AM
If you really want to make your DM cry, make your spellbook into your item familiar. It's win-win!

Edit: btw, I strongly suggest not using item familiars (or spellbooks) in real games.

I actually did this... at the DM's suggestion. It's balanced by the fact that I'm going to be spending lots and lots of xp crafting magical items for the rest of the party.

Person_Man
2007-09-12, 11:38 AM
I've seen it used to good effect, though like everything in D&D, powerful abilities need to be played with maturity and balance. It's a particularly good idea for Hexblades, who are essentially a nerfed Gish class.

Kaelik
2007-09-12, 12:00 PM
I actually did this... at the DM's suggestion. It's balanced by the fact that I'm going to be spending lots and lots of xp crafting magical items for the rest of the party.

You too? My DM wanted someone to go Item Familiar, so that was my level 3 feat. He had no idea how much I was going to hurt him. But luckily, my cleric took Craft Wondrous item at level 6 and just started handing things out.

Chaos Bringer
2007-09-12, 01:17 PM
This looks really nice. Oddly enough in my current campaign all of the players just got captured and stripped of all their gear. Think i could get away with taking this feat on a summoned magic weapon?

Thrawn183
2007-09-12, 02:27 PM
There's nothing stopping you from having more than one, right....?

I can see a sorceror having a lot more spell slots to invest suddenly being really, really useful.

Edit: How exactly does the invest skill ranks work? Are you treated as having those skills? Is it the familiar that is making the checks or you? (Would really stink before it is able to speak to you).

Ex: From the srd entry it had a wizard putting designated skill points into the familiar. Does the wizard treat his skill modifier as if he had kept those skillpoints and then add the +1's wherever he wants, or do his skill modifiers remain the same and the familiar gains the ability to make those skill checks (at least as trained).

I also can't tell what it means by mentioning cross class skills. Does that mean that the +1 provided by the familiar has to be given twice to cross class skills?

Justyn
2007-09-12, 03:12 PM
There's nothing stopping you from having more than one, right....?

You can only take a feat once unless the feat says otherwise.


I can see a sorceror having a lot more spell slots to invest suddenly being really, really useful.

You get one, and only one spell slot of two levels lower than your top slot to use. Although, it does not discuss what happens in multiclassing or gestalting.


How exactly does the invest skill ranks work? Are you treated as having those skills? Is it the familiar that is making the checks or you? (Would really stink before it is able to speak to you).

The skill ranks are in the object, but you can utalize them when the object is in your possession.


Ex: From the srd entry it had a wizard putting designated skill points into the familiar. Does the wizard treat his skill modifier as if he had kept those skillpoints and then add the +1's wherever he wants, or do his skill modifiers remain the same and the familiar gains the ability to make those skill checks (at least as trained).

He can use the skill ranks in the object, and put the +1 bonuses on any skill he pleases.


I also can't tell what it means by mentioning cross class skills. Does that mean that the +1 provided by the familiar has to be given twice to cross class skills?

For every three skill points added, you get a +1 bonus to any skill that you want: however, it cannot exeed you total amound of ranks in that skill.

I wanted the last one to be clear as day.

Douglas
2007-09-12, 03:15 PM
You can't take a feat twice unless it specifically says you can, and this one doesn't.

The skill ranks invested are neither removed from the character nor added to the item. The only effect investing skill ranks has on those ranks is that if you ever lose the item you lose the invested ranks with it.

The fact that Spot is a cross-class skill in the example is completely irrelevant, except possibly as an explanation for why the character hasn't bothered to get more than a single rank in it. The detail that actually matters in that example is that he only has one rank in the skill.

AKA_Bait
2007-09-12, 03:33 PM
Hey wait... am I reading this wrong or could you have an item familiar and a regular familiar?

Dr. Weasel
2007-09-12, 05:13 PM
Hey wait... am I reading this wrong or could you have an item familiar and a regular familiar?
Yeah. That's not a problem.

Thrawn183
2007-09-13, 11:52 AM
The skill ranks are in the object, but you can utalize them when the object is in your possession.



He can use the skill ranks in the object, and put the +1 bonuses on any skill he pleases.

I guess what I'm trying to ask is this: if I had 4 ranks in a skill, then put 4 more ranks into the item familiar, would I make the check as if I had 8 ranks?

Chaos Bringer
2007-09-13, 12:03 PM
Could you cast flesh to stone on something, make it into an item familiar, then cast stone to flesh? That would be really cool since it gains sentience.

Dr. Weasel
2007-09-13, 12:46 PM
I guess what I'm trying to ask is this: if I had 4 ranks in a skill, then put 4 more ranks into the item familiar, would I make the check as if I had 8 ranks?
Yes, though when your DM has an NPC "borrow" it you only count as having 4 and you lose your bonus modifiers.


Could you cast flesh to stone on something, make it into an item familiar, then cast stone to flesh? That would be really cool since it gains sentience.
That really depends if your DM would allow you to have a Dwarf of Charisma +4. (So that's almost definitely a "no," though it might work RAW under Item Creation rules as an unslotted item.)

Chaos Bringer
2007-09-13, 12:50 PM
That really depends if your DM would allow you to have a Dwarf of Charisma +4. (So that's almost definitely a "no," though it might work RAW under Item Creation rules as an unslotted item.)

I was thinking of something small like what a Wizard would normally have as a familiar, like a snake or rat. Something you could keep close. And what exactly is a Dwarf of Charisma?

Dr. Weasel
2007-09-13, 01:04 PM
I was just throwing out an example.

You need to have a non-expendable magic item to create an Item Familiar. This means that you would have to enhance the Flesh-to-Stone-ed creature somehow or another. This may be legal according to Item-Creation Guidelines if you consider the statue to be a non-slotted Wonderous Item. The ability to make them an Item Familiar then depends on whether or not the Enhancement carries over once you cast Stone-to-Flesh on the statue. Again, I don't think the rules expressly say enhancements don't.

So the question comes down to whether your DM will allow you to carry your Dwarf Buddy around to get a Charisma bonus.

Chaos Bringer
2007-09-13, 01:39 PM
Hmmm, im thinking you could turn a snake to stone in good shape to use as a club. Convince someone to enchant it and you should be good to go. Of course it does depend on the DM, but this is a somewhat logical method imo. And possibly a magical creature turned to stone could count as the magical item?

Douglas
2007-09-13, 01:58 PM
I guess what I'm trying to ask is this: if I had 4 ranks in a skill, then put 4 more ranks into the item familiar, would I make the check as if I had 8 ranks?
That's not really how it works. You have 8 ranks, and you put four of them into the familiar. You still have 8 ranks, and you now have a +1 bonus you can give to whatever skill you like. If you lose the familiar you will also lose both the bonus and those four ranks, but until that happens those ranks are still yours.

Dr. Weasel
2007-09-13, 04:19 PM
Hmmm, im thinking you could turn a snake to stone in good shape to use as a club. Convince someone to enchant it and you should be good to go. Of course it does depend on the DM, but this is a somewhat logical method imo.
That isn't the problem I was mentioning. That would be pretty valid under most DMs (as long as you don't enhance it as a weapon. Your snake probably won't make a masterwork club). The problem was Stone-to-Fleshing the snake back as you mentioned in your first question.


And possibly a magical creature turned to stone could count as the magical item?
That's not going to work as well because your magical creature has effectively just become an attractive rock.