OOTS #1130 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[NRSASD]

WOW. I am in absolute awe at this twist

[Resileaf]

And the winning bet is "Cat activates the protection against evil clasp"!

[Ted The Bug]

OH MY GOD

The question is...if Durkon retakes control, does Belkar not recognize it and try to kill him anyway?

[Great Dane]

I'm shaking. I just forcibly exhaled after holding my breath for way too long.

[Stabbey]

Ha ha! Brilliant! Brilliant! Absolutely nailed it! Perfection!



OH MY GOD

The question is...if Durkon retakes control, does Belkar not recognize it and try to kill him anyway?

He might, but the Anti-Life shell buys some time, which is enough for Durkon to undo his domination and free/heal the others, and then willingly drop down and let Belkar stake him. It probably won't happen exactly like that, but maybe close.

[Yxylu]

I haven’t felt this good after a comic since the last time Belkar snapped out of his incapacitation at Old Blind Pete’s house.

That’s a lot of dwarves to count for my tally, though.

[hamishspence]

So this is what everything's been leading up to.

[1chapelcredit]

This isn't a web comic.

We need a new word for it.

You don't see there is an update to a "web comic" on your phone, then decide NOT to read it because you want to read it in full-size on your laptop. THEN decide to wait again because you want to buy a special lunch that day to read it over.

This is something else entirely. Thank you Rich!

[Deuce]

Oh. My. God. Made a rough day much better.

[Yendor]

Wow. That was incredible.

[Resileaf]

This also certainly puts into perspective what happened to Malack. Did he go through the same epiphany as Greg and actually was the same person in undeath as he was in life? Or is it getting all the memories at once after an overload of feelings that breaks the vampire spirit?

[NRSASD]

I don't think the rodeo is over just yet though. Pretty sure Belkar is going to off the newly liberated Durkon. It's too tragically perfect to not happen

[oonker]

oh my

oh my

oh my

[Murk]

Oh no!!!!!

My favourite vampire :c

[Cristo Meyers]

First I was thinking 'somebody's been watching The Crow...'

Then I kept reading, and just...just damn. That was powerful. Shut that cynical head-voice of mine right down.

[dysprosium]

I've always been impressed with how the story progresses -- but this takes it to a whole different level.

[CoffeeIncluded]

I am still shaking. This was incredible, and I’m going to be thinking about what Durkon said for a while.

[SympathyBot]

Woooah - even if he is REALLY Durkon instead of Durkula now the Order has to kill him. They've been tricked once - they'd be silly to think it is actually Durkon a second time. Even if it is.

[valuedmember]

Incredible :) These are the moments that make OOTS one of the best works of fiction I ever read.

[Timy]

Holly crap !!!

it's kind of perfect !

[Resileaf]

Also damn, look at all those memories. Durkon officiating the wedding. Learning to fight trees. Studying with cousin Hoskin. His birth. Something with his grandpa, although I'm not sure what.
This really shows just how close Durkon was with his family. His whole family.

[factotum]

This also certainly puts into perspective what happened to Malack. Did he go through the same epiphany as Greg and actually was the same person in undeath as he was in life? Or is it getting all the memories at once after an overload of feelings that breaks the vampire spirit?

I think time is a factor, definitely. Malack absorbed these memories over months if not years, and didn't get all the emotional baggage in one massive lump like Durkula just did. It's difficult to say for certain, of course, because Malack had another 200 years of undeath experience on top of that, so he likely wouldn't have been very similar to who he was in life even if he was a carbon copy at the time he died--I'm certainly not the same person I was even 30 years ago, much less 200!

[pendell]

Well, that was really, really, really interesting.

Rich Burlew, if you're reading this, I hate to break it to you but Terry Pratchett got there first again. In his book Carpe Jugulum. The protagonist Granny Weatherwax is taken by vampires, but she's a woman very like Durkon. She doesn't get vampired, the vampires get Weatherwaxed.

That's essentially what happened here.

Which raises a question: Is that what happened to Malack? Granted, the vampire-spirit which arose in Malack's dead body was a different being at first, did it so completely pick up the memories of the previous host that it *became* the original mortal Malack? Forget it ever was anything else?

And thank you, imprisoned-Durkon, for giving that so-excellent rebuttal to Greg*. Yes, you are who you are on your worst day, but you also who you are on every other day of the week as well. That's why Durkon is adjudged lawful good and not lawful evil. Because, as he says, he took that worst day of his life and decided NOT to make the next day the new worst day.

Crowning moment of awesome for Durkon. Bravo, sir, Bravo.

If this were a Shakesperean theater I'd be stamping the ground and whistling in approval. But I can't do that physically, it causes comment :smallamused:

ETA: Oh yes. I notice the onscreen decapitation, which was managed without somehow being a total mess. Well done again, showing Belkar's ferocity while still keeping the comic PG-13.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Coyote0715]

Way to go Mr. Scruffy! :smallcool:

[Psyren]

Can't wait for Hel's reaction. She can't even do vampires right :smalltongue:
Though I guess the point here is that trying to corrupt a soul as pure as Durkon's was a losing proposition to begin with.

Rich's time-honoreed tradition of "fantasy is a tool for teaching us about our own humanity" continues. "Ye are who ye are on the NEXT day" indeed :smallsmile:

[Peelee]

Well, looks like that's why I never got an answer as to why the vampire spirit in Durkon's head never changed to robes as well.

Also, I never put it together that what the vampire missed in the memories was the experience, and that was why he couldn't make the connection. Makes perfect sense in hindsight.

[skim172]

But doesn't Greg have a separate consciousness of his own? And does that consciousness continue to exist independently or does it merge with Durkon's mind? And what happens to Greg's personality as High Priest of Hel - certainly, it was short-lived, but it existed. Does it simply get erased or does it combine with Durkon's own somehow?


Also, did Durkon just "Agent Smith" Greg?

[Jubal_Barca]

Oh. OK, wow, lots of things I didn't think could happen did in fact happen. And are awesome.

So I guess we have a Good Vampire now? Though I guess Belkar will try and stake him the second that antilife shield is down. And Hilgya will likewise do whatever she can to destroy the Vampire body as soon as she's released from domination.

What will Hel do about this?

So many questions!

[Resileaf]

Well, looks like that's why I never got an answer as to why the vampire spirit in Durkon's head never changed to robes as well.

Also, I never put it together that what the vampire missed in the memories was the experience, and that was why he couldn't make the connection. Makes perfect sense in hindsight.

Indeed. It's one thing to watch a movie, it's an entirely different thing to experience the movie.

[M.A.D]

Oh my god.. that was... I don't have anything to describe it.

Thank you, Giant.

[TheNecrocomicon]

Props to whoever called Mr. Scruffy activating Belkar's magic clasp.

Good riddance to evil overconfident ex-Creed vampire. Hopefully, good riddance to hardcore jerkass Lurkon.

Today's strip should make a few heads explode amongst the crowd who insisted to the Nine Hells and back that Durkon could never, ever throw off the vampire's control.

[declinator]

I'm not shedding tears over a web comic. So what is that in my eyes?

Also: Thanks Belkar :belkar: for ending Ponchella (?).

[DaOldeWolf]

So, he became Durkon! :smalleek:

If vampires spirits take all the memories of someone at once, the memories overwhelms then since they dont know how to deal with them?!

Unexpected but it is kinda cool. :smallbiggrin:

[Ron Miel]

Absolutely gobsmacked.

[Peelee]

Indeed. It's one thing to watch a movie, it's an entirely different thing to experience the movie.

I think that's a great way to put it. Also, on a completely unrelated note, kind of sad Poinchula didn't get the stake on her way out. Has anyone gotten the stake? Did I just miss it? There's vampires all around and Belkar made a stake, surely someone will be staked!

[Tundar]

Another EPIC update and a class A wallpaper there.
Go go Belkster.

And have a very happy day :)

[Giggling Ghast]

Oh no!!!!!

My favourite vampire :c

He forced that dagger through her neck. She felt that one.

[Stabbey]

Woooah - even if he is REALLY Durkon instead of Durkula now the Order has to kill him. They've been tricked once - they'd be silly to think it is actually Durkon a second time. Even if it is.

I'm not that worried about killing Durkon. Killing the vampire was part of the plan in Tinkertown. All they have to do is have enough hope that they're willing to Resurrect him. ...but first they might have to deal with the plan to interfere with the vote.

[Thokk_Smash]

Well, that was really, really, really interesting.

Rich Burlew, if you're reading this, I hate to break it to you but Terry Pratchett got their first again. In his book Carpe Jugulum. The protagonist Granny Weatherwax is taken by vampires, but she's a woman very like Durkon. She doesn't get vampired, the vampires get Weatherwaxed.

That's essentially what happened here.

Which raises a question: Is that what happened to Malack? Granted, the vampire-spirit which arose in Malack's dead body was a different being at first, did it so completely pick up the memories of the previous host that it *became* the original mortal Malack? Forget it ever was anything else?

And thank you, imprisoned-Durkon, for giving that so-excellent rebuttal to Greg*. Yes, you are who you are on your worst day, but you also who you are on every other day of the week as well. That's why Durkon is adjudged lawful good and not lawful evil. Because, as he says, he took that worst day of his life and decided NOT to make the next day the new worst day.

Crowning moment of awesome for Durkon. Bravo, sir, Bravo.

If this were a Shakesperean theater I'd be stamping the ground and whistling in approval. But I can't do that physically, it causes comment :smallamused:

ETA: Oh yes. I notice the onscreen decapitation, which was managed without somehow being a total mess. Well done again, showing Belkar's ferocity while still keeping the comic PG-13.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

It might be that Vampire!Malack didn't bother to view as many of Shaman!Malack's memories as Durkula had to. Vampire!Malack probably just kept Shaman!Malack's spirit locked away until it was absorbed into nothingness, without needing to feel his memories' experiences.

(And vampires don't have running blood, so even decapitation won't cause much blood flow)

[TenthousandDays]

Question to people who know their stuff on DnD more than I do: Is there a surprise round decapitation rule I dont know or how did belkar behead a full-hp vampire so fast?

[Elkad]

Fast and furious with the updates lately!

Love it.

[Ionbound]

"I am a shadow, the true self." Does this mean Durkon has a Persona now?

[TheNecrocomicon]

Also: Thanks Belkar :belkar: for ending Ponchella (?).

Question to people who know their stuff on DnD more than I do: Is there a surprise round decapitation rule I dont know or how did belkar behead a full-hp vampire so fast?

Quoth Belkar, "I would like to rage."

[Nazzo, the 102nd]

I'm typing with my toes because I can't stop clapping slowly to applaud this.

Wonderful. Absolutely wonderful.

[Thokk_Smash]

I think that's a great way to put it. Also, on a completely unrelated note, kind of sad Poinchula didn't get the stake on her way out. Has anyone gotten the stake? Did I just miss it? There's vampires all around and Belkar made a stake, surely someone will be staked!

Belkar staked several spawn (most noticeably the guy who got Mass Cure Light Wounds'd--"My heart can't take so much light" "Let me air it out for you").

[BowStreetRunner]

So who else besides me is looking through the time-capsule of Durkon's memories for anything important that might be hiding there?

[The Pilgrim]

Well delivered, mr Burlew. Giant.

[Giggling Ghast]

Question to people who know their stuff on DnD more than I do: Is there a surprise round decapitation rule I dont know or how did belkar behead a full-hp vampire so fast?

The rules can be changed on a circumstantial basis. In this case, mechanics bow to Rule of Cool.

[pendell]

So ... how does antilife shell work? Is it possible for Belkar to make the supreme sacrifice, die hitting the antilife shell and take out Greg*?

Or does antilife shell make him bounce off without taking damage?

ETA: Looks like the second is what happens by the rules. Belkar can't enter at all, no-save. The only way he can enter is if Greg* himself moves in such a way as to force Belkar into the shell, dismissing it.

Of course, Greg could dismiss it anyway.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Devonix]

Now this is how you use the " Turn Undead " ability

[Resileaf]

So who else besides me is looking through the time-capsule of Durkon's memories for anything important that might be hiding there?

Oh, there's nothing hidden in there. It's very much all in the open, and it's all important.
To Durkon anyway.


So ... how does antilife shell work? Is it possible for Belkar to make the supreme sacrifice, die hitting the antilife shell and take out Greg*?

Or does antilife shell make him bounce off without taking damage?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Antilife shell is just that, a shell. It doesn't do anything except block living things from entering. It's a purely defensive spell, nothing offensive in it.

[Peelee]

This also certainly puts into perspective what happened to Malack. Did he go through the same epiphany as Greg and actually was the same person in undeath as he was in life? Or is it getting all the memories at once after an overload of feelings that breaks the vampire spirit?

It may have something to do with the quick-vamp that he went through. Malack did say that it would be confusing for him; maybe he meant that the vampire needed processing time instead of just a highlight reel. And none of the other vamped clerics were able to make the same connections, or have the same experiences or force of will.

Like Roy said, it wasn't that they needed a cleric, but they needed Durkon.

Belkar staked several spawn (most noticeably the guy who got Mass Cure Light Wounds'd--"My heart can't take so much light" "Let me air it out for you").

Thanks. Not the first time I've forgotten stuff, won't be the last.

[Yirggzmb]

Fiiiiiiiine, I break my eternal lurkdom for this.

Holy wow. Just wow!

Loving the parallel between Durkula's and Belker's rage. And that memories panel is gorgeous.

[Kish]

Question to people who know their stuff on DnD more than I do: Is there a surprise round decapitation rule I dont know or how did belkar behead a full-hp vampire so fast?
He didn't. He stabbed her through the heart with the stake.

As for looking for D&D rules for it, you're on your own.

[hamishspence]

I believe Tropers would call this "Split Personality Takeover" (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SplitPersonalityTakeover) (Good version) - the most usual endpoint of a Battle In The Center of the Mind (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BattleInTheCenterOfTheMind).

[hroþila]

Nooo, Ponchette! :(

I don't think the rodeo is over just yet though. Pretty sure Belkar is going to off the newly liberated Durkon. It's too tragically perfect to not happen
I don't think Belkar will kill the vampire. My guess is that Belkar was woken up 1) to drive home what exactly Durkon was talking about, and 2) perhaps to set up a scene with only Belkar and Durkon next.

[TenthousandDays]

The rules can be changed on a circumstantial basis. In this case, mechanics bow to Rule of Cool.

Quoth Belkar, "I would like to rage."

Ah, got it. Thanks for the info.

[pendell]

So who else besides me is looking through the time-capsule of Durkon's memories for anything important that might be hiding there?

*Nods* Yep yep.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Peelee]

He didn't. He stabbed her through the heart with the stake.

As for looking for D&D rules for it, you're on your own.

We don't see it, but that makes sense. He has the stake when he jumps on her, but not while decapping her. Then has it again after.

[wRAR]

He didn't. He stabbed her through the heart with the stake.

That's not what I see in the comic. He is stabbing her in the throat with the dagger and the head flies off.

[Frozen_Northman]

The memories panel takes the definition of a "web comic" to a whole new level.

Brilliant storytelling. Great payoff for Durkon's slow memory reveal up to this point - a philosophy lesson and a Crowning Moment of Awesome blended together. And it's mirrored in Belkar's choosing to be better than his worst day, too.

[Devonix]

Nooo, Ponchette! :(

I don't think Belkar will kill the vampire. My guess is that Belkar was woken up 1) to drive home what exactly Durkon was talking about, and 2) perhaps to set up a scene with only Belkar and Durkon next.

Remember Durkon is still a vampire and still a high priest of Hel giving her a vote. My thinking is that Durkon will ask Belkar to kill him, costing Hel her vote and thus saving the world.

[Marcotix]

Awesome job.

Now my wonder is whether or not Durkon broke the vampire, or if this out come was inevitable?

Assuming Durkula slowly sucked memories from his host over time, would he eventually, slowly step by step become Durkon? Or Durkula be able to process it and maintain himself?

It would be a better story if Durkon overwhelmed Durkula though, since he is the hero of this arc, and so through his agency he must win.

[Korith]

Question to people who know their stuff on DnD more than I do: Is there a surprise round decapitation rule I dont know or how did belkar behead a full-hp vampire so fast?

Maybe she was a 4th edition minion.

[Blatt]

I'm lost! What has got Belkar all riled up? And how did he go from 0HP (I assume) to green-glowing terminator? And is Greg paying any attention at all to the outside world? And if Durkon actually turns Greg from the inside and is then killed by Bitterleaf, is it a simple raise dead to get him back? (Haley can probably afford it from loose change!)

Also, remembering Belkar is due to be permanently dead in the near future.

That said, I'm seeing gods handing out wishes if OOTS pull this off.

[anonynos]

Rich Burlew, if you're reading this, I hate to break it to you but Terry Pratchett got there first again. In his book Carpe Jugulum. The protagonist Granny Weatherwax is taken by vampires, but she's a woman very like Durkon. She doesn't get vampired, the vampires get Weatherwaxed.


I'm hoping you intend this as a compliment, but even if so this is like... one of the most dickish ways to phrase it you could... putting it this way turns it from "This is like Terry Pratchett's writing!" to "Yeah, your writing isn't special, someone else already did it."

[Marcotix]

Remember Durkon is still a vampire and still a high priest of Hel giving her a vote. My thinking is that Durkon will ask Belkar to kill him, costing Hel her vote and thus saving the world.

No he isn't, he gave up to one of his vampire back at the moot- unless I missed something. As I recall it was based on her being in the front (then there was a joke about being frontists).

[hamishspence]

That's not what I see in the comic. He is stabbing her in the throat with the dagger and the head flies off.

The stake is going in through the back - it's long enough to reach the heart but not long enough for the point to come out of the chest.

[GrayDeath]

I post rarely in these threads, mostly because they often are too long when we in europe get the chance, but ho boy, was that an epic three Strip Combo!
I am still gobsmacked!

[2D8HP]

Totally emphasising with Belkar right now

You made me think about things Mr. Burlew.

Dagnabbit!

[wRAR]

Is Belkar in the barbarian rage, getting temp HP?

[pendell]

I'm hoping you intend this as a compliment, but even if so this is like... one of the most dickish ways to phrase it you could... putting it this way turns it from "This is like Terry Pratchett's writing!" to "Yeah, your writing isn't special, someone else already did it."

Rich has deliberately been avoiding Terry's work for just this very reason. I'm hoping that, when he finishes OOTS and it won't compromise his own vision for the story, he'll have a look back and enjoy someone whose writing so closely resembles his own. If I were still in college, I think I could do a thesis on the similarities and parallels between two independent authors. Neither author is deliberately copying the other -- Rich is at pains not to steal Terry's ideas -- but the stories, characters and outcomes are remarkably similar. Perhaps it's a similarity in moral outlook plus a common fantasy 'dictionary' of tropes. As I said, I find it fascinating.

In any case, I take note that it came across as 'dickish' and will try better in future.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[hamishspence]

I'm hoping you intend this as a compliment, but even if so this is like... one of the most dickish ways to phrase it you could... putting it this way turns it from "This is like Terry Pratchett's writing!" to "Yeah, your writing isn't special, someone else already did it."

Plus, Pratchett's version is a little different - yes, they start to take on some of her personality traits - and regain vampire vulnerabilities - but they don't become clones of her, mentally.

Weatherwax, after being bitten, comes close to becoming a vampire - but doesn't change all the way, like Durkon did.

[xroads]

Simply awesome.

It took me a few minutes to understand the difference between Durkula's and Malack's situation. But I think I get it now.

[Resileaf]

Is Belkar in the barbarian rage, getting temp HP?

Belkar was never reduced to 0 HP. Roy knocked him out, probably with a feat of some kind.

[Yirggzmb]

I'm lost! What has got Belkar all riled up? And how did he go from 0HP (I assume) to green-glowing terminator? And is Greg paying any attention at all to the outside world? And if Durkon actually turns Greg from the inside and is then killed by Bitterleaf, is it a simple raise dead to get him back? (Haley can probably afford it from loose change!)

Also, remembering Belkar is due to be permanently dead in the near future.

That said, I'm seeing gods handing out wishes if OOTS pull this off.


Belkar is all ragey because Durkon sacrificed himself for him, and Belkar has had to deal with the emotional turmoil from that ever since. And I'm pretty sure he wasn't knocked down to 0hp. Just had been knocked out with non-lethal damage.

[Thokk_Smash]

To everyone saying Ponchella got staked: she turned to mist when she died. All the vampires who got staked (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1118.html) got X's (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1119.html) in their eyes, and didn't turn to mist. So my thought is that she wasn't staked.

[Marcotix]

I'm hoping you intend this as a compliment, but even if so this is like... one of the most dickish ways to phrase it you could... putting it this way turns it from "This is like Terry Pratchett's writing!" to "Yeah, your writing isn't special, someone else already did it."

Yeah, it's next to impossible to find completely new things do to. At some point, the Simpson's did it. That doesn't mean taking what is done and making it your own is bad though.

Good stories are often times like making a good steak - at some level all your doing is heating meat, but what seasonings, what marinade, baking, or grilling? That stuff still matters.

[wRAR]

To everyone saying Ponchella got staked: she turned to mist when she died. All the vampires who got staked (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1118.html) got X's (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1119.html) in their eyes, and didn't turn to mist. So my thought is that she wasn't staked.

She's got X's though.

[pendell]

To everyone saying Ponchella got staked: she turned to mist when she died. All the vampires who got staked (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1118.html) got X's (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1119.html) in their eyes, and didn't turn to mist. So my thought is that she wasn't staked.

ETA: Oh, I see it now. Belkar has the stake in his right hand and the dagger in his left. He sticks the stake in her chest while cutting off her head with his dagger. So he DID stake her.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Ornithologist]

I have to say, after looking at all the memories, my favorite is one of Durkon Failing at being a bard.



On a more serious note, I have no idea where this is going to head next... But It looks to be somewhere good.

[Marcotix]

To everyone saying Ponchella got staked: she turned to mist when she died. All the vampires who got staked (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1118.html) got X's (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1119.html) in their eyes, and didn't turn to mist. So my thought is that she wasn't staked.

Yeah i'm pretty sure this is right.

[Resileaf]

Just because we don't see the vampires who get staked misting doesn't mean they didn't. They don't appear in any other panel, so I would wager they just misted out of panel.

[Kish]

To everyone saying Ponchella got staked: she turned to mist when she died. All the vampires who got staked (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1118.html) got X's (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1119.html) in their eyes,
You mean like Cindy did in the first panel of the second page here?

That said, my mistake on her being staked; what he's holding is his new dagger, not the stake he was holding earlier.

[blackmage]

HOLY ****ING ****

DUR-KON!
DUR-KON!
DUR-KON!

giant!
giant!
giant!

[2.5 cats]

I'm lost! What has got Belkar all riled up?

For one thing, the Protection from Evil spell that the clasp activated really hurts! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0969.html)

[HMS Invincible]

Why did Bellkar say "made him think things" is this about when Durkon traded his life for Bellkar? I'm surprised how long he's been holding that in.

[Windscion]

Belkar. Mechanically, I don't know of anyway by 3.5 rules for the Belkster to recover like that. Even subdual damage doesn't just disappear, and I dunno if animal companions can perform 'aid other', but realistically, it is perfectly plausible. And yes, raging gives extra HP (2*level) but won't stop him from dropping dead the instant he comes out of the rage. Which would be an interesting and amusing twist.

[Kish]

I'm lost! What has got Belkar all riled up?
He couldn't have been more explicit about why he's angry.

[Darkhands]

I can tell that you've been waiting almost 15 years to post this strip, Rich. Thanks. :)

[rasborry]

That was amazing...

I've been reading this comic for years, and now I felt like making an account to comment on it. What a twist. Things beautifully culminated to this point. I have no idea where this is going next.

[wRAR]

Just because we don't see the vampires who get staked misting doesn't mean they didn't.

They shouldn't per the rules as I understand them.

[Hunter Noventa]

Wow. Just wow. I don't normally post in the comic threads but wow.

Of course all I can think of now is...

"Take this! My happiness! My peace! My contentment! Erupting Memory Finger!"

[LasVegasLawyer]

This is magnificent. Just wonderful storytelling.

Also, Belmar has taken several actions but doesn't seem to be taking any damage from his Protection from Evil item that Mr. Scruffy activates.

I could be wrong. I nearly always am.

[wRAR]

This is magnificent. Just wonderful storytelling.

Also, Belmar has taken several actions but doesn't seem to be taking any damage from his Protection from Evil item that Mr. Scruffy activates.

I could be wrong. I nearly always am.

I think it just hurts but doesn't do damage.

[Calmen1]

This also certainly puts into perspective what happened to Malack. Did he go through the same epiphany as Greg and actually was the same person in undeath as he was in life? Or is it getting all the memories at once after an overload of feelings that breaks the vampire spirit?

We don´t know how vamping happens with other races. But Malack specifically told Durkon that ressurrecting him would be the same as killing the person he was as undead. He said that the lizard-shaman he was before being vamped was not who he is.

[IceFox30]

As some other people have already done, after reading the comic for I don't know how many years, I made an account today, at 1130, just to post a comment.

Well done, sir. This moment has brought a tear to my eye, an incredible piece of storytelling so long in the making. There's no way for me to properly explain how I feel. Truly well done.

[Unoriginal]

Well, that was an exceptionally great few pages.

Up until the last panel.

I'm sorry to say but... it kinda ruins the whole thing for me.

I can't buy the vampire spirit and Durkon are the same person. Maybe the vampire was Durkon at his worse day at the start, but they've "lived" different experiences. Durkon has spent the last weeks/days imprisoned in his own body, and the vampire has spent that time going around, serving as jailer for Durkon, manipulating people, killing them, worshiping Hel, and the like.

Different perspectives, different experiences.

An evil spirit who's unable to grow being paralyzed by not understanding an act of pure selflessness which was fundamental in shaping who the person they're based on is? That's great. Pretty nice take on the concept, and done magnificent well.

The evil spirit becoming the person because they've absorbed the memories of said person? I can't get behind that. Especially because we were told before that the mental space in which the host and the parasite spirit discuss moves much faster than the outside time (if the vampire was unable to get the epiphany, it'd justify why its paralyzed in real time, while here the vampire do get the epiphany), and because Malack was pretty clear he was a different being for his original host even after absorbing all the memories (granted, it could have been only his perception of the issue, but all the other vampires who talked of the issue before seemed to agree).


Also, it kind of runs into the same problems that Harry Potter did with how it portrayed Lily's sacrifice. To explain myself: how come so few people know that a wiazrd/witch sacrificing themselves for someone else due to love grants protection? Sure, Lily Potter did a selfless sacrifice, but *a lot* of people in the world and in history have done that kind of things for the sake of their children or other beloved. Yet it's portrayed as if Harry is the only one in Magic England (or even the Magic World) who had someone sacrifice themselves like that, up until the last book where Harry's sacrifice protects one whole side of a battle, to the point most people don't know it's even possible and even the scholars regularly forget it's possible.

Here, it's kinda the same problem. Did no good person who had their identity shaped by a great tragedy which nevertheless pushed them to do good thing get turned into a vampire before? Is "getting talked into an existential crisis by the host" not among the main things a vampire should fear, hubris or not? Is the goddess of Death and Undead unaware that if a vampire absorb both the positive and the negative memories they become the person they're parasiting?

Again, this is only my opinion. Everything was incredible until that last panel. And I'm left puzzled.

[Arrghus]

It's like Durkula said. They're the same person. They always were. One of them was just... selectively the same person. And now he isn't.

I wonder what Hilgya has to say about all this.

[factotum]

We don´t know how vamping happens with other races. But Malack specifically told Durkon that ressurrecting him would be the same as killing the person he was as undead. He said that the lizard-shaman he was before being vamped was not who he is.

Again, though, we're talking about a 200 year difference here. If I die aged 80, and then someone resurrects the 20-year-old me, they're not really resurrecting *me*, they're resurrecting the person I was 60 years before I died. Same with Malack--if you resurrect the original shaman he was before being vamped, you're erasing 200 years of experience and effectively bringing back a different person, even if the two were at one point identical.

(Note I'm not saying that Malack ever *was* identical to his living self--I think that rather unlikely, to be honest--just that we can't say whether he was or not from that statement).

[Talion]

This also certainly puts into perspective what happened to Malack. Did he go through the same epiphany as Greg and actually was the same person in undeath as he was in life? Or is it getting all the memories at once after an overload of feelings that breaks the vampire spirit?

It really comes down to a combination of things. How long he took to review the memories. If actually reviewed all of them, or let a few slide here and there. The original Malack's alignment. How old Malack was when he became a vampire. If that transformation was willing in any way, or accidental. How much Malack the vampire grew as a person through his own experiences over the two centuries that he preserved himself for (which, at this time at least, makes him more successful than Xykon himself in the preservation department). Whatever his circumstances, Malack had ample time to become his own person, epiphany or no.

In many respects, Malack was an exceptional, and successful, vampire. If there were anyone who could be counted as an absolute authority on them in the world of the OotS, it would be him. Unfortunately, unless he took the time to complete a lengthy memoir of his experiences and thoughts on the subject, all that expertise on vampire philosophy and psychology is lost amidst the sands of the great barren desert of the western continent. While the original Malack may have had his own insights to bring to the table (assuming that after all that time there was still a meaningful distinction of any kind), there isn't even a means to Speak with Dead to him about it. Which is in its own way rather unfortunate, as the data from such an experience would be very beneficial to the world as a whole.

With that in mind, it would certainly have been interesting to see what Durkula would have become under Malack's tutelage/thralldom, rather than being set loose mere hours after being instant-vamped instead of naturally vamped and forced to scramble and think on his feet while enacting an apocalypse scenario of his own. Interesting, but certainly not Good (tm).

[Anarion]

Wow. I’ve been following this comic a long time and this is just, wow. I’m very excited for this comic and for where this is going. Though I put my money on this being temporary, at best.

[Toper]

This is so good, I love everything about it.

[Resileaf]

In many respects, Malack was an exceptional, and successful, vampire. If there were anyone who could be counted as an absolute authority on them in the world of the OotS, it would be him. Unfortunately, unless he took the time to complete a lengthy memoir of his experiences and thoughts on the subject, all that expertise on vampire philosophy and psychology is lost amidst the sands of the great barren desert of the western continent. While the original Malack may have had his own insights to bring to the table (assuming that after all that time there was still a meaningful distinction of any kind), there isn't even a means to Speak with Dead to him about it. Which is in its own way rather unfortunate, as the data from such an experience would be very beneficial to the world as a whole.


Y'know, a memoir from Malack would be fascinating. I didn't know I wanted it until just now.

[PlaguetheRoamer]

Dear Rich,
At the risk of sounding too hyperbolic, never in my life did I think I would get the chance to relive the moment I read the finale of Carpe Jugulum by Terry Pratchett. Thank you so very much. These last two pages have been storytelling masterpieces. I'll basically be recommending your comic to anyone I cross that wants to get into a fantasy saga from now on. You just ticked a crucial box.

[kivzirrum]

This comic hit me hard, for a variety of reasons.

I've been reading OotS for 12 years, but this is the first strip to make me feel like this (which I guess is appropriate, given the events of it).

[BaronOfHell]

But doesn't Greg have a separate consciousness of his own? And does that consciousness continue to exist independently or does it merge with Durkon's mind? And what happens to Greg's personality as High Priest of Hel - certainly, it was short-lived, but it existed. Does it simply get erased or does it combine with Durkon's own somehow?

Interesting point, but if it doesn't get touched upon, then I wouldn't mind either way.

[Peelee]

They shouldn't per the rules as I understand them.
Wheeeeeee!

If you are looking for moment-to-moment rules accuracy from this comic, you probably should stop reading. You are guaranteed to be continually frustrated and disappointed, because I don't care about that at all.

[littlebum2002]

I guess he succeeded on his "Turn Undead" roll? :smallbiggrin:

[Kish]

I don't really think the Granny Weatherwax comparison holds anyway. She uses magic to turn vampire mind control back on them; it's related to her ability to "borrow" animals' bodies. If she wasn't a powerful witch the vampires wouldn't be interacting with her memories, any more than the OotS vampires are currently being influenced by Elan, Haley, and Hilgya's memories. This is about Greg, as a newborn dark spirit, incorrectly thinking that what he had seen automatically--Durkon's worst day--was the only thing that had moral weight, and thus that it was logical and viable to exist as what Durkon would have been if the despair and rage he had felt then was all he had ever felt, and he could absorb the rest of Durkon's memories and not arrive at where Durkon arrived with them. The Exarch, right now, feels what Gontor felt when he was going along with his arranged marriage; he doesn't realize that, as he absorbs more memories, he'll inevitably come to understand why Gontor left to join the Creed of the Stone.

Going by the example of Malack, I would guess that if an OotS-verse-vampire doesn't demand the memories in any particular order (perhaps automatically during the normal three-day resting period before rising), the vampire gets all the memories in such an order that the negative emotions are highlighted and the positive ones presented largely disconnected from support. The vampire ultimately is the original person--in a sense--and has complete moral choice, but is still substantially more likely to be evil than they were as a living being who experienced all their experiences in chronological order. But they'll never feel the total disconnect and contempt for the host that Greg's been showing up to now. This was entirely predictable with information that someone who had thousands of years to closely observe vampires should have had, but Hel, just like real-world narcissists, is incapable of more than the more superficial understanding of how anyone else's mind works.

[Pampukin]

This is the way to start a friday! Awesome work!!
I would also think Belkar is going to kill the vampire, but in front of his child? Im doubtfull, plus Hylga is still there, there is more to this climax coming, I think.I wonder if she will be contempt with Durkon being vampire slayed. I just hope she prepared raise dead for the blonde priestess (I forgot her name).

[Throknor]

In regards to Malack, recall that Ponchella said her original personality was in agreement with her new one. The original Malack may have been different from the vampire but he wasn't necessarily the embodiment of Lawful Good that Durkon is. Hel used Durkon's worst day to make a vampire and it was that day that made Durkon the dwarf he is.

I don't know how he'll talk Belkar down but this is Durkon's book. One of him will somehow deal with stopping the Exarch, with or without the Order's help. Heck, besides Belkar he still needs to deal with Hilgya. There's a chance an apology will work with Belkar, since Durkon can understand why he's mad and possibly relate and he has time to discuss it with the shield up. Hilgya is going to be trickier to talk down, between her past feelings and the new humiliation of the Domination.

Unless he is just bumped to Lawful-Neutral, in which case he can just vamp them both. But I'm not putting money on that.

[Kashem]

I'm assuming that what Belkar did to Ponchula was more or less a Coup De Grace, because she paying no attention at all.

Also, I was wondering if we might get a recurrence of "Hit the negative energy spirits with positivity" like Elan did. Beautifully done Giant.
This comic also shows an interesting stance on nature vs. nurture. This is fundamentally an argument that there basically is no inherent nature to Greg that is different from Durkon.
Also, I'm pretty sure we are about to see the culmination of Belkar and Durkon and the potentially impending alignment change from Belkar.

These last 10 pages or so have been amazing. Great work Giant.

[Rrmcklin]

To everyone saying Ponchella got staked: she turned to mist when she died. All the vampires who got staked (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1118.html) got X's (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1119.html) in their eyes, and didn't turn to mist. So my thought is that she wasn't staked.

Whenever any of the vampires have been slain they've always gotten the Xs in their eyes, then turned to mist. It says nothing about how they died.

[Askthepizzaguy]

What Yahtzee of Zero Punctuation fame says ironically, I say with conviction.

ALL MY CHRISTMASES HAVE COME AT ONCE!!!


And, coincidentally, all of Durkon's holy days have come for the unholy version of him.

That's gotta sting!

Best comic of all time!!!!

[masonwheeler]

Can't wait for Hel's reaction. She can't even do vampires right :smalltongue:
Though I guess the point here is that trying to corrupt a soul as pure as Durkon's was a losing proposition to begin with.

Rich's time-honoreed tradition of "fantasy is a tool for teaching us about our own humanity" continues. "Ye are who ye are on the NEXT day" indeed :smallsmile:

Pendell may have looked at this and been reminded of Terry Pratchett, but what I thought of when I saw this line here was a very different fantasy author: this is quite similar to one of the strongest events that occurs at the climax of Brandon Sanderson's Oathbringer. One of the main characters has a very important epiphany along these same lines during a confrontation with a major bad guy. There's more to the similarities than that, but I wouldn't want to spoil it for those who haven't read it. (And if you haven't, you totally should! The Stormlight Archive series is an absolute masterpiece.)

[fishhead202]

Well, that was pretty cool!

Really hoping that they don't straight up kill Durkon. I know it'll be practically impossible to convince them that he's got control back, but I hope we can get the order back together on the same side.

[Leirus]

So now what? Will the vampire resurrect himself? And is this why they needed unassuming, pasive Durkon in the order? I doubt many other clerics would have managed this feat.

[Yana]

I am thou... Thou art I.

[crayzz]

Well, that was an exceptionally great few pages.

Up until the last panel.

I'm sorry to say but... it kinda ruins the whole thing for me.

I can't buy the vampire spirit and Durkon are the same person. Maybe the vampire was Durkon at his worse day at the start, but they've "lived" different experiences. Durkon has spent the last weeks/days imprisoned in his own body, and the vampire has spent that time going around, serving as jailer for Durkon, manipulating people, killing them, worshiping Hel, and the like.

Different perspectives, different experiences.

An evil spirit who's unable to grow being paralyzed by not understanding an act of pure selflessness which was fundamental in shaping who the person they're based on is? That's great. Pretty nice take on the concept, and done magnificent well.

The evil spirit becoming the person because they've absorbed the memories of said person? I can't get behind that. Especially because we were told before that the mental space in which the host and the parasite spirit discuss moves much faster than the outside time (if the vampire was unable to get the epiphany, it'd justify why its paralyzed in real time, while here the vampire do get the epiphany), and because Malack was pretty clear he was a different being for his original host even after absorbing all the memories (granted, it could have been only his perception of the issue, but all the other vampires who talked of the issue before seemed to agree).


Also, it kind of runs into the same problems that Harry Potter did with how it portrayed Lily's sacrifice. To explain myself: how come so few people know that a wiazrd/witch sacrificing themselves for someone else due to love grants protection? Sure, Lily Potter did a selfless sacrifice, but *a lot* of people in the world and in history have done that kind of things for the sake of their children or other beloved. Yet it's portrayed as if Harry is the only one in Magic England (or even the Magic World) who had someone sacrifice themselves like that, up until the last book where Harry's sacrifice protects one whole side of a battle, to the point most people don't know it's even possible and even the scholars regularly forget it's possible.

Here, it's kinda the same problem. Did no good person who had their identity shaped by a great tragedy which nevertheless pushed them to do good thing get turned into a vampire before? Is "getting talked into an existential crisis by the host" not among the main things a vampire should fear, hubris or not? Is the goddess of Death and Undead unaware that if a vampire absorb both the positive and the negative memories they become the person they're parasiting?

Again, this is only my opinion. Everything was incredible until that last panel. And I'm left puzzled.

I figured they weren't literally 100% the same, just that having so much of the same memories and experiences means they're effectively the same: Durkon but a vampire ("no more evil than Belkar I'd wager").

And this isnt strictly just a case of a random evil spirit absorbing memories and experiences becoming the person they've invaded: Hel designed Greg specifically to fit into Durkon. It makes sense that Greg is particularly vulnerable to influences from Durkon's positive memories, since he was designed from the get go to be particularly motivated by his negative ones.

EDIT: RE Malack

Malack spent hundreds of years as a vampire. He had lots of time to develop independently from his host. He might not have made the same argument if it had only been a fee weeks.

[FlawedParadigm]

This isn't a web comic.

We need a new word for it.

You don't see there is an update to a "web comic" on your phone, then decide NOT to read it because you want to read it in full-size on your laptop. THEN decide to wait again because you want to buy a special lunch that day to read it over.

This is something else entirely. Thank you Rich!

Webnovel??

[Unoriginal]

So who else besides me is looking through the time-capsule of Durkon's memories for anything important that might be hiding there?

I would say that every single one is important.

[Banderwock]

BOOM. Headshot. /comic

This was excellent.

[Ryeka]

Absolutely amazing. It was a slow burn but hell, was the payoff worth it.

It's amazing how you developed your run-of -the-mill stereotypical dwarf character into one with so much depth. I used to think Durkon was as bland as cardboard but now he's one of my favourite characters.

Great work, Giant!

[Ironsmith]

Okay, so the Giant's had a bit of a habit of making us go "holy ****" with a given comic, and then somehow making **** holier in the next comic. This is freaking awesome.

Also, props to whoever it was that predicted this was gonna be how Durkon finally makes peace with Greg. Granted, it seems less like "forms bond of cooperation" and more like "complete personality override", but that's pretty darn close to what happened.

[Mennhabar]

Another long time reader and forum lurker finally logging in just to say...

Well done, mr. Burlew! You never cease to amaze me.

[Slank]

I can't buy the vampire spirit and Durkon are the same person. Maybe the vampire was Durkon at his worse day at the start, but they've "lived" different experiences. Durkon has spent the last weeks/days imprisoned in his own body, and the vampire has spent that time going around, serving as jailer for Durkon, manipulating people, killing them, worshiping Hel, and the like.


I think this has more to do with Durkon's monologue about who you are after the worst day of your life. Arguably, the worst day of his life was his exile UNTIL he died and was turned into a vampire. From that point forward, he was dealing with the repercussions of the new worst day of his life and deciding that he would make something better of it and that meant he would not be subjugated in his own mind anymore. I won't pretend to know anything about vampires or D&D rules anymore but I imagine he figured sacrificing a little of himself to become this other thing was better than being nothing at all.

I liked how it resolved. Not looking forward to Durkon dying at the hands of Hilgya (sp?) shortly after such a huge victory :(

[PlaguetheRoamer]

It really comes down to a combination of things. How long he took to review the memories. If actually reviewed all of them, or let a few slide here and there. The original Malack's alignment. How old Malack was when he became a vampire. If that transformation was willing in any way, or accidental. How much Malack the vampire grew as a person through his own experiences over the two centuries that he preserved himself for (which, at this time at least, makes him more successful than Xykon himself in the preservation department). Whatever his circumstances, Malack had ample time to become his own person, epiphany or no.


Didn't Malack say he had smothered the original Host body's soul? The Lizard Shaman inside Malack must have given up on (un)life long before he met Durkon. Whereas Durkon's soul is very much still alive and kicking.

[zinycor]

Well, that was an exceptionally great few pages.

Up until the last panel.

I'm sorry to say but... it kinda ruins the whole thing for me.

I can't buy the vampire spirit and Durkon are the same person. Maybe the vampire was Durkon at his worse day at the start, but they've "lived" different experiences. Durkon has spent the last weeks/days imprisoned in his own body, and the vampire has spent that time going around, serving as jailer for Durkon, manipulating people, killing them, worshiping Hel, and the like.

Different perspectives, different experiences.

An evil spirit who's unable to grow being paralyzed by not understanding an act of pure selflessness which was fundamental in shaping who the person they're based on is? That's great. Pretty nice take on the concept, and done magnificent well.

The evil spirit becoming the person because they've absorbed the memories of said person? I can't get behind that. Especially because we were told before that the mental space in which the host and the parasite spirit discuss moves much faster than the outside time (if the vampire was unable to get the epiphany, it'd justify why its paralyzed in real time, while here the vampire do get the epiphany), and because Malack was pretty clear he was a different being for his original host even after absorbing all the memories (granted, it could have been only his perception of the issue, but all the other vampires who talked of the issue before seemed to agree).

Also, it kind of runs into the same problems that Harry Potter did with how it portrayed Lily's sacrifice. To explain myself: how come so few people know that a wiazrd/witch sacrificing themselves for someone else due to love grants protection? Sure, Lily Potter did a selfless sacrifice, but *a lot* of people in the world and in history have done that kind of things for the sake of their children or other beloved. Yet it's portrayed as if Harry is the only one in Magic England (or even the Magic World) who had someone sacrifice themselves like that, up until the last book where Harry's sacrifice protects one whole side of a battle, to the point most people don't know it's even possible and even the scholars regularly forget it's possible.

Here, it's kinda the same problem. Did no good person who had their identity shaped by a great tragedy which nevertheless pushed them to do good thing get turned into a vampire before? Is "getting talked into an existential crisis by the host" not among the main things a vampire should fear, hubris or not? Is the goddess of Death and Undead unaware that if a vampire absorb both the positive and the negative memories they become the person they're parasiting?

Again, this is only my opinion. Everything was incredible until that last panel. And I'm left puzzled.

My guess is that normally by the point that a vampire has absorbed all of the hosts memories the vampire has lived enough time that his own experiences (which could be years or centuries worth of experiences) outclass whatever memories the host has.

This was not the case for Greg, He has only existed for a very limited time, essentially he lacks his own way of seeing he world, and up until this point relies on his view of Durkon's life to give his own life meaning. Therefore, the transformation can take place because of Greg lack of maturity.

So, in the end, Greg absorbed Durkon's memory way too soon, if Malack or any other older vampire wold have been there to guide him and advise him to go slower with the memory abosorbing the transformation would not have happened.

[Kish]

The evil spirit becoming the person because they've absorbed the memories of said person? I can't get behind that. Especially because we were told before that the mental space in which the host and the parasite spirit discuss moves much faster than the outside time (if the vampire was unable to get the epiphany, it'd justify why its paralyzed in real time, while here the vampire do get the epiphany), and because Malack was pretty clear he was a different being for his original host even after absorbing all the memories

Was he? He talked about his mortal host's brothers as his brothers and spoke of Durkon as if he expected the Durkon-vampire to go back to being the dwarf who had been his friend.

(granted, it could have been only his perception of the issue, but all the other vampires who talked of the issue before seemed to agree).
All the other vampires created by Greg, even younger than him, with even less understanding of how vampire memory absorption works?

[Merellis]

Oh.

Belkar is Greg.

How the hel did I not see that till now?

[Rrmcklin]

I liked how it resolved. Not looking forward to Durkon dying at the hands of Hilgya (sp?) shortly after such a huge victory :(

That could happen; it'd be pretty tragic and all. But it would also be pretty pointless, so, yeah I'm cautiously going to say that isn't going to immediately happen.

[Crisis21]

And thus Rich answers the question of what happens when Evil that cannot comprehend Good is forced to.

[PlaguetheRoamer]

So who else besides me is looking through the time-capsule of Durkon's memories for anything important that might be hiding there?

Way ahead of you.

Durkon's memories are:
947,958,962,963,983,991,1086,1087,1088,1089,1126,1 127,1128,1129, and of course 1130

[2.5 cats]

Regarding Durkon vs. Malack, it has to be vanishingly-rare for someone's "worst day/hole in their soul" to be caused by pure, unselfish goodness. So Durkon's vampire spirit would be one of very few who was shaped to take that.

If you're a paladin but your worst day is the day you doubted your faith, or the day a family member gets killed in a freak accident, then if you get vamped the spirit is shaped by those and doesn't care about all the good moments.

[Grey Watcher]

HA! Whose soul is absorbing who's now!

Also, the vignettes are adorable! The Uncle Durkon panel! :smallsmile::smallbiggrin::smallsmile:

[NihhusHuotAliro]

I thought that these memories and dialogues between Durkon and Durkon* happened at the speed of thought, in such a way that no delay could be noticeable.

Also, I thought that the absorption of the host's memories meant eternal dormancy for the host (though, as others have pointed out, the few weeks that the parasite has been around might not be enough to form a developed enough consciousness to consume/iterate/compartmentalize the entire life/being of the host so quickly).

Color me confused (I mean, "death and destruction for us all hasn't even happened yet).

[denthor]

Mad now no more evil stuff afterwards. :smallfurious:

Belkar got to make his own prophecy of Happiness come true. He cut off the head of a vampire. :belkar:

[Keltest]

Forcing Greg to grow out of his bitterness and pain? Brilliant!

[hamishspence]

Just because we don't see the vampires who get staked misting doesn't mean they didn't. They don't appear in any other panel, so I would wager they just misted out of panel.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm


Driving a wooden stake through a vampire’s heart instantly slays the monster. However, it returns to life if the stake is removed, unless the body is destroyed. A popular tactic is to cut off the creature’s head and fill its mouth with holy wafers (or their equivalent).

Possibly in this case, chopping off the head, caused the "body is destroyed" principle to kick in - hence the change to mist. I would guess that an unbeheaded, staked vamp's body, remains where it is.

[resound]

I'm lost! What has got Belkar all riled up? And how did he go from 0HP (I assume) to green-glowing terminator? And is Greg paying any attention at all to the outside world? And if Durkon actually turns Greg from the inside and is then killed by Bitterleaf, is it a simple raise dead to get him back? (Haley can probably afford it from loose change!)

Also, remembering Belkar is due to be permanently dead in the near future.

That said, I'm seeing gods handing out wishes if OOTS pull this off.

Belkar goes down after Roy smacks him with [the flat edge of?] his sword. I assume Roy's dealing non-lethal damage, but I'm not sure how that works in a knockout situation. Does Belkar's berserker rage grant him hit points? He did get some barbarian levels a while back, didn't he?

Does someone know how the rules on these? I'm too rusty to remember.

I really don't get why Belkar seems to be channeling Durkula (or Durkon). Thoughts?

[Ron Miel]

Well, that was really, really, really interesting.

Rich Burlew, if you're reading this, I hate to break it to you but Terry Pratchett got there first again.



And, no doubt, a hundred other authors did something similar before Terry did.


Rich has deliberately been avoiding Terry's work for just this very reason.



Cite? As far as I know, he has just stated that he hasn't read Terry Pratchett, not that he deliberately avoids him. Nobody could possibly read every book going.

[zinycor]

I thought that these memories and dialogues between Durkon and Durkon* happened at the speed of thought, in such a way that no delay could be noticeable.

Also, I thought that the absorption of the host's memories meant eternal dormancy for the host.

Color me confused (I mean, "death and destruction for us all hasn't even happened yet).

It is happening at the speed of thought, Just not at the maximum speed that thoughts can go. Afterall, normally greg only takes whatever information he needs from the memory, so it's a fast and simple thing. This time Greg has to look at the memories, and then come to conclusions about them which allow him to change into Durkon. This can take some time.

[Anansiil]

This was great! Very well played and interesting. He was designed to fit into Durkon, and if he took in everything that defined Durkon, he would practically be Durkon.

If you lose all of your memories and experiences, are you the same person you were before? Adding new experiences changes who we are too, so I like where this is going.

(A pity poor Malack didn't have this conversation with himself 😢 )

[Kish]

I really don't get why Belkar seems to be channeling [...]. Thoughts?
Is "What are you talking about" a thought?

Belkar's thoughts, feelings, and words are all Belkar's.

[SunnyFox]

ETA: Oh, I see it now. Belkar has the stake in his right hand and the dagger in his left. He sticks the stake in her chest while cutting off her head with his dagger. So he DID stake her.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Panel 14 shows us both of Belkar's hands, one empty and one holding his dagger. No stake. Cutting off a vampire's head is the same as staking them.... they ded.
And in Panel 11, Belkar uses only his dagger (the stake is in his other hand, but is clearly not being used to stab Ponchella.

[resound]

Is "What are you talking about" a thought?

Belkar's thoughts, feelings, and words are all Belkar's.

"How dare you make me think about things, Durkon!" (as if Belkar is Durkula seeing Durkon's thoughts).

Also...

"How could you not think about how your selflessness would affect me?!?" (again, as if Belkar is seeing Durkon's thoughts).

[Perficio]

Awesome job.

Now my wonder is whether or not Durkon broke the vampire, or if this out come was inevitable?

Assuming Durkula slowly sucked memories from his host over time, would he eventually, slowly step by step become Durkon? Or Durkula be able to process it and maintain himself?

It would be a better story if Durkon overwhelmed Durkula though, since he is the hero of this arc, and so through his agency he must win.

No, I don't think this was inevitable. Consider the differences here between Durkula and the other vampires we know a bit about, Malack and Ponchula.

Malack slowly absorbed memories over a long time, during which he was making new memories as a vampire. The memories of his shaman template were fainter and vaguer than those drinking the blood of his once-relatives, and easily dismissed.

Ponchula wasn't so much absorbing the memories of a struggling host as working together with somebody who was down for being an evil vampire. They probably had an easy flow back and forth, but the conversation kept their identities somewhat separate... for now. Maybe they would have blended over time.

Durkula described himself as made-to-order for the holes in Durkon's heart, meaning he was fundamentally shaped around Durkon's self image from the start. He's had only a couple of days to operate, during which he's been pretending to be Durkon and surrounded by people Durkon knows - continuing Durkon-memories, instead of really making his own. He's had nowhere near the amount of time or distance needed to establish his own identity. And now Durkon took advantage of that, getting Durkula off balance with the emotions that he - as Durkon on his worst day, with some additional shaping by Hel - would be susceptible to... and overwhelmed him with memories to the point that Durkon's identity is now most of who Durkula is. I don't think it's 100%, but there's so little anything else in him - besides some knowledge of the plans Hel laid out - that he's now basically what he'd claimed to be before - Durkon, but a vampire and probably some alignment shift.

I don't think this is normal for a OOTS vampire at all. I think it's the combo of custom-made soul, the work of going incognito... and most of all, Durkon having the exceptional insight, wisdom, and stubbornness to figure out how to reframe Durkula's identity and make it happen.

[Sky_Schemer]

I figured they weren't literally 100% the same, just that having so much of the same memories and experiences means they're effectively the same: Durkon but a vampire ("no more evil than Belkar I'd wager").


Durkula described himself as made-to-order for the holes in Durkon's heart, meaning he was fundamentally shaped around Durkon's self image from the start. He's had only a couple of days to operate.

My biggest question is...why now? Why not 30 minutes ago? Or an hour ago? Or yesterday? Or last week?

I don't see any specific reason why waiting until now offered some advantage.

Edited to add: OK, obviously yesterday and last week is before Durkon had his epiphany, but the larger question still stands.

[theMycon]

Really, Ponchella? What good would Harm have done there?

"I'm going to make you have 1 HP for real real, not just 1 HP for play play". GREAT use of what could've been your only action.

[AchtungNight]

My own two points to put in-

- Scruffy did wake Belkar by activating the clasp. It put Belkar in sudden pain and effectively slapped him awake. I cheered when I saw it, and when he raged.

- Regarding Durkon’s epiphany- let’s not forget that Durkon’s a stubborn a-hole, perhaps the most stubborn a-hole a negative energy spirit has ever dealt with. If you look back through the strips since he was vamped and his inner soul struggling was revealed, you can see Durkon continue to be this stubborn a-hole through every one of Greg’s defense mechanisms. Denial, bargaining, being evil, Durkon has stood up to all that and more from Greg over and over again. And he also has the arguably very unique experience of benefitting his entire life from a very unselfish act. It’s easy for a bad person to reject a good deed as ultimately beneficial on a lasting basis when the helper just helps you and then walks away. But when a person sticks around and pays it forward to the degree Durkon’s family did? When his mother presumably did the same? It’s easy to be evil and just kill, dominate, bribe, mock, etc the people who wrong you or who make your world not make sense or who make your life harder. Easy to reject them too. But Durkon does the opposite- and stubbornly too. And Greg can’t get rid of the troublesome person in his own soul when Durkon refuses to die.

That said, we can’t forget that we haven’t seen the effects of this epiphany in the world outside Durkon’s mind yet. His mind may be his, but his body’s still a vampire. And his inner evil soul may be snapping under the pressure of so many good memories from an unselfish act it still can’t comprehend, but it may be about to reassert itself too. I am eagerly waiting for the next comic however long it takes.

[Mike Havran]

Wonderful.

[Darth Paul]

Hilgya is going to be trickier to talk down, between her past feelings and the new humiliation of the Domination.


Not that kind of Domination. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0524.html) I'm sorry, I couldn't help myself....

[Kish]

"How could you not think about how your selflessness would affect me?!?" (again, as if Belkar is seeing Durkon's thoughts).
Your parentheticals are your choices; if you're choosing to be confused it's your business.

If you want to be not-confused, I suggest you drop the assumption encoded in the parentheticals and read what Belkar's saying as being about what Belkar thinks and feels.

[Ironsmith]

I thought that these memories and dialogues between Durkon and Durkon* happened at the speed of thought, in such a way that no delay could be noticeable.

Also, I thought that the absorption of the host's memories meant eternal dormancy for the host.

Color me confused (I mean, "death and destruction for us all hasn't even happened yet).

The way I understand it, what's going on still takes place at the speed of thought... but just like an exceptionally complicated task can slow down your computer, an exceptionally powerful cocktail of emotions and experiences still takes some time to process through... Durkon's whole life, in fact. Even condensed down to a hundredth of a percent of that time (and assuming around 50 years), that'd take Greg a few hours to sift through. (It looks like it's been condensed down even further to a few minutes, which is still a Hel of a lot faster than it initially happened.) If that doesn't quite do it for you, then it could be that Greg is "conscious" the whole time and fully aware of what's happening, but the epiphany preoccupies him to such a degree that he's choosing not to respond to anything going on outside of his head.

As for eternal dormancy of the host... maybe that's what would have happened, but the only person we've seen say that kind of thing is Greg, who was kinda-sorta just proven wrong (and was only a few days old when he said it). It could just be that becoming the host is the inevitable conclusion; but since the host now has about an extra month or so of blood-fueled debauchery under their belt, they remain evil anyway.

(Also, still plenty of time for death and destruction... Gontor's still in their base, dominating their doods.)

[SunnyFox]

My biggest question is...why now? Why not 30 minutes ago? Or an hour ago? Or yesterday? Or last week?

I don't see any specific reason why waiting until now offered some advantage.

Because Durkon was holding back memories until a chance was offered to use them to revert Greg.

[Perficio]

My biggest question is...why now? Why not 30 minutes ago? Or an hour ago? Or yesterday? Or last week?

I don't see any specific reason why waiting until now offered some advantage.

Quippy answer: It made for a more emotionally tense story, which Elan or Tarquin could remind us is part of how the OOTS universe operates.

[pendell]

And, no doubt, a hundred other authors did something similar before Terry did.




Cite? As far as I know, he has just stated that he hasn't read Terry Pratchett, not that he deliberately avoids him. Nobody could possibly read every book going.

It's been awhile. I remember reading that Rich said on this forum that he had started to read Sir Terry's work, then put it aside for fear it would interfere with what he was trying to do as well. I'm afraid I'm not in a position to research it at the moment. Possibly my memory is incorrect.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[hamishspence]

Panel 14 shows us both of Belkar's hands, one empty and one holding his dagger. No stake. Cutting off a vampire's head is the same as staking them.... they ded.

From the way the SRD words it, you have to behead it after staking it to "kill it permanently" - a staking doesn't permanently kill the vampire since just removing the stake will bring it back to life.



And in Panel 11, Belkar uses only his dagger (the stake is in his other hand, but is clearly not being used to stab Ponchella.


I assumed he'd stuck the stake most of the way into her back, immediately after panel 11, then removed his hand from the stake (hence it not being visible tucked into his belt, or on the floor, in panel 14) and he shoved it the rest of the way in while finishing the beheading.

Belkar's chest would be acting as "the hammer" in this analog.

[zinycor]

My biggest question is...why now? Why not 30 minutes ago? Or an hour ago? Or yesterday? Or last week?

I don't see any specific reason why waiting until now offered some advantage.

Because now Greg asked for those memories. If Durkon just tried to overload Greg's brain with his memories without Greg's consent, then Greg would be suspicious and wouldn't accept them and wouldn't change.

Greg wanted to understand and change, therefore, He could.

[1130]

I'm speechless.

[hroþila]

This was entirely predictable with information that someone who had thousands of years to closely observe vampires should have had, but Hel, just like real-world narcissists, is incapable of more than the more superficial understanding of how anyone else's mind works.
I don't think this is necessarily fair on Hel. Regardless of how well or how poorly she understood the minds of vampires and the process of vampirization, she had no candidates to be her high priest other than Durkon, and she had no say in how exactly he was vamped (whether he'd be given those three days or not). Hel did make the vampire spirit, but she had to do so in accordance with a pre-existing blueprint that she didn't necessarily design herself or have absolute power over, and that wasn't created specifically to serve her unconditionally and unerringly, but simply to be yet another element in this world.

[chy03001]

Thank you Giant,

You just convinced me to buy the entire series when you've finished it.

Today's page was truly breathtaking.

[SunnyFox]

It's been awhile. I remember reading that Rich said on this forum that he had started to read Sir Terry's work, then put it aside for fear it would interfere with what he was trying to do as well. I'm afraid I'm not in a position to research it at the moment. Possibly my memory is incorrect.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

You do realize that signing your posts as "Respecfully, <return> Brian P is entirely redundant, since your username is shown every time you post?

[Sky_Schemer]

Because now Greg asked for those memories. If Durkon just tried to overload Greg's brain with his memories without Greg's consent, then Greg would be suspicious and wouldn't accept them and wouldn't change.

Greg wanted to understand and change, therefore, He could.

Hmm. OK. I buy that Durkon can't just flood memories: Durkula has to ask for them. So the argument here is that Durkula wasn't going to ask about this memory on his own, so he needed a moment when Durkula would let him offer up an arbitrary memory.

This makes sense and I can accept it. It's...maybe a little thin narratively. But it feels consistent.

[Aahz]

Can someone explain the in-game mechanics here? Why did the protection from evil clasp rejuvenate Belkar -- I would have assumed that it would have just protected him from further damage. It looks like it also gave him some kind of extra magical ability, too, based on the green glow.

And what exactly is the anti-life shield/dome thing? Does that protect the vampires from injury, damage living creatures...?

[hamishspence]

The antilife shell prevents living creatures from passing through - but nothing more.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antilifeShell.htm



The protection from evil spell suppresses the vampire's domination ability over Belkar when activated:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromEvil.htm

[Finagle]

How's Hilgaya standing in the middle of the anti-life field? Is she considered undead while under domination?

[Kish]

The clasp glows because it's causing Belkar pain, just like every previous time he's used it.

Affected by Protection from Evil, he is no longer mind-controlled, for as long as he keeps the Protection from Evil up. As for why he's able to go back to fighting, either he wasn't in negative hit points before, or he's using barbarian rage now (and will quite possibly die when it wears out and he loses the bonus hit points from it).

Anti-Life Shell creates a shell, centered on the caster, which the living cannot pass through in either direction.

[Calmen1]

Again, though, we're talking about a 200 year difference here. If I die aged 80, and then someone resurrects the 20-year-old me, they're not really resurrecting *me*, they're resurrecting the person I was 60 years before I died. Same with Malack--if you resurrect the original shaman he was before being vamped, you're erasing 200 years of experience and effectively bringing back a different person, even if the two were at one point identical.

Well, except Durkon IS experiencing what Durkula is living, right? He sees and feels it, he learns it. He is just not in charge. You are not a 20 years old if you lives for 20 years old than "experiences" another 60 years.

But this is a "Let´s play "Roy" Rick and Morty" discussion.

[Resileaf]

Can someone explain the in-game mechanics here? Why did the protection from evil clasp rejuvenate Belkar -- I would have assumed that it would have just protected him from further damage. It looks like it also gave him some kind of extra magical ability, too, based on the green glow.

And what exactly is the anti-life shield/dome thing? Does that protect the vampires from injury, damage living creatures...?

Protection from evil does not rejuvenate, but Belkar was never hurt in the first place, he was just KOed by Roy in what I assume was a feat because he dealt little damage. But the Giant has decided that an evil creature using a protection spell against their own alignment would be hurt somewhat by it, enough for it to be bothersome, and this is probably what woke Belkar up.
The glow is a visual representation of the spell being active.

The anti-life shell is a wall that only blocks living things from entering it. It deals no damage to the living, it just prevents them from entering it.

[Darth Paul]

A beautiful touch halfway through, as Greg starts talking more like Durkon... foreshadowing the final moment of change.

[SunnyFox]

How's Hilgaya standing in the middle of the anti-life field? Is she considered undead while under domination?

Nope. She was inside the radius when the spell was cast: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1126.html The shield prevents life from entering, it doesn't expel life already within the spell radius.

[pendell]

You do realize that signing your posts as "Respecfully, <return> Brian P is entirely redundant, since your username is shown every time you post?

I am aware. This is how I sign my name on these forums since my join date in 2006. I review every post I make to ensure I can sign that signature truthfully. If I can't, I usually use another adjective.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[georgie_leech]

No doubt everyone is already yelling about what an awesome scene this is for both Belkar and Durkon. So I'm instead going to say, hot DAYUM can Mr. Burlew pull off a splash page.

[ProfLucario]

Oh man.

Oh man, oh man, oh man. I never thought Durkon would be able to retake control, but dang if this wasn't the last thing I expected.

So... first question, do we keep calling the spirit Greg? Or should we call it Durkon? For the purposes of this post I'll stick with Greg, but... wow. The main thing is, though, what happens to Durkon Classic? Does he now pass to oblivion, having effectively been replaced by the not-so-negative-anymore energy spirit? Does he still have miscellaneous memories left over to hold onto?

Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if Durkula (Greg? Durkon now? Whatever) frees everyone from domination, drops the antilife shell, and then willingly asks to be destroyed and resurrected.

[Keltest]

Oh man.

Oh man, oh man, oh man. I never thought Durkon would be able to retake control, but dang if this wasn't the last thing I expected.

So... first question, do we keep calling the spirit Greg? Or should we call it Durkon? For the purposes of this post I'll stick with Greg, but... wow. The main thing is, though, what happens to Durkon Classic? Does he now pass to oblivion, having effectively been replaced by the not-so-negative-anymore energy spirit? Does he still have miscellaneous memories left over to hold onto?

Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if Durkula (Greg? Durkon now? Whatever) frees everyone from domination, drops the antilife shell, and then willingly asks to be destroyed and resurrected.

That seems likely. Im going to be surprised and more than a little disappointed if he just goes "no, I really am Durkon this time" and the Order just accepts it and lets him stay a vampire.

[AlurenDarkfire]

"I don't unnerstand"
That's when I knew what was up. Greg started using Durkon's accent.

[Calmen1]

It is not like Durkon is free of his domination. It is just that Durkula feels the same as him, thinks the same as him, knows the same. And that person logically acts the same. This mean he will do his best to acomplishes Durkon goals, which is saving the world and... dying and being ressurrected.

Durkon has a family now. He needs to be alive for Kudzu. I hope Belkar doesn´t believe in Durkula being Durkon and kills him. In this case, Durkula will probably just let Belkar kills him.

[Darth Paul]

I am aware. This is how I sign my name on these forums since my join date in 2006. I review every post I make to ensure I can sign that signature truthfully. If I can't, I usually use another adjective.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

That is awesome, Brian. And in case I've never mentioned, you are the very model of a GitP member. I'm happy to share this playground with you.

[Nymrod]

So much work on this comic, I wonder how much time it took to draw all those memory scenes.

It does make sense with the way the Giant decided to handle vampirism; if the original soul is trapped inside (and by the rules it must be, else you could raise the soul with True Rez even without killing the vampire first) then that means that the sentience of the vampire is separate and vulnerable. I wonder if this is in any level a commentary on the rules and their implication or it is entirely a narrative decision (either way it's interesting).

Will be interesting to see how this is handled next; they are still on a tight schedule considering the Exarch is already on his way to the council and ready to fix the vote.

[SilverCacaobean]

Great comic.

As I understand it, not all vampires end up as clones of their host necessarily. (Rip Greg by the way) Vampires can request which memories they want to see and this is what makes them who they are. They are born out of the worst moment of their host, and it gets reflected in which memories they choose to watch. What Durkon was trying to do all this time is make Greg request all the memories and experiences of Durkon, which would make him effectively Durkon.

So Greg didn't lie, he was effectively Durkon all along after all. A version of Durkon who was stuck in that moment he hated everyone. Durkon helped him move on.

[Jubal_Barca]

So, some thoughts and theorising.

I didn't call either of the two main plot points here - I think I hadn't realised either was plausible within the mechanical framework of the comic.

Thought 1: we still don't know what Greg becoming Durkon means externally, or even to some extent internally, and he has one good and one probably-evil character that are both in a strong position to destroy his current body. This seems narratively unlikely to happen for a few strips at least, though my suspicion is still marginally towards the idea that we'll return to alive-Durkon before the end of this book.

Thought 2: Whilst we don't really know what the mind-takeover means, we can speculate about how and why it happened here and not otherwise. I think one can definitely construct plenty of frameworks in which it's reasonable that this isn't a possibility Vampires would consider or be protected against. Firstly it's tactically counter-intuitive: Vampire spirits will tell their hosts that once they have all their memories they'll discard them into dormancy, so the obvious option for most people opposing their implanted spirit is to resist removal rather than bombard. Secondly, actions like Sigdi's are presumably extremely rare, and seem to in this case be a necessary factor to "soften up" a Vampire spirit in order to overwhelm it. I agree with those who think that the Vampire's youth and lack of an independent worldview seems to be a major factor. Third, Vampires are often pretty screwed up (in various depictions, obviously we have little data for OOTSvers); it may actually be the case that fightback or messing with the Vampire in some way is actually pretty common (say a bit under a tenth of cases), but the result after those is 99% usually either Vampire Wins or an Everyone Loses where the resulting memory confusion drives both mad or whatever - we can also allow for the fact it's something Vampires do actively protect against, and that this is precisely why you got Greg trying to crush Durkon's soul.

Thought 3: Belkar survival time feels likely to be low - the juxtaposition of panels around Durkon saying "Ev'ry single one counts. All tha way to the end" suggests/foreshadows this may apply as much as to Belkar as to himself. I have to say, at this point I'm really not seeing Vampire Belkar, I suspect he'll stay dead when gone, though goodness knows I've been wrong before. It may be that this is his alignment-change moment but not his death moment of course.

Thought 4: I think what we now have is not Durkon and Greg-Kon, but literally Durkon and Durkon: Greg is, I think, dead, whatever that means for a negative energy spirit. I don't know if this framing of it makes any difference, but I think that it's narratively important: the Vampire did not have a "change of heart", he had his heart changed, aggressively. Durkon didn't in that sense "persuade" the Vampire, he obliterated its separate sense of self, after tricking it into a point where it pretty much asked him to do so.

[Finagle]

I am aware. This is how I sign my name on these forums since my join date in 2006. I review every post I make to ensure I can sign that signature truthfully. If I can't, I usually use another adjective.

Respectfully,

Brian P.
Please put that in your signature file. That way, those of use who find sigs to be meaningless noise can opt out of it. It just spams the forum. Thanks!

Even if Durkula gets staked, the Order doesn't have enough diamonds for a resurrection. They spent the cash on the boat people. I think Durkon ain't coming back. The story doesn't need him, anyway.

Or if they do experience a continuity error and still have the diamonds, Durkon will refuse to come back because he's enjoying the afterlife. That "plot twist" is very popular in D&D comics for some reason.

[Giscard76]

One of my favorite strips of all time...

[warmachine]

This is why you don't let newbies lead important missions. They can be too easily corrupted by the enemy. Some people call it 'going native'. Use experienced subordinates who've experienced life.

[Kish]

Please put that in your signature file. That way, those of use who find sigs to be meaningless noise can opt out of it. It just spams the forum. Thanks!

Y'know, man, you're really not in a position to expect other people not to post things you don't find value in.

[resound]

Your parentheticals are your choices; if you're choosing to be confused it's your business.

If you want to be not-confused, I suggest you drop the assumption encoded in the parentheticals and read what Belkar's saying as being about what Belkar thinks and feels.

I agree that the quote above can easily apply to when Durkon saved Belkar from Malack, but it can also apply to the current drama taking place in Durkon's mind. I think the Giant is trying to create this parallel in order to reinforce Durkula's internal struggle; that is, Belkar has always struggled with his own identity - conflicted between his mostly selfish tendencies and periodic his selflessness - and he can't imagine that Durkon would save him because he projects his self image on others.

[Jubal_Barca]

That is awesome, Brian. And in case I've never mentioned, you are the very model of a GitP member. I'm happy to share this playground with you.

Which of course started off in my head:

He is the very model of a G-I-T-P posting man,
He signs off posts politely as a Playground forum poster can,
He's very well acquainted with the Order and IFCC,
And lots of other characters we read about quite frequently!

[Askthepizzaguy]

My biggest question is...why now? Why not 30 minutes ago? Or an hour ago? Or yesterday? Or last week?

I don't see any specific reason why waiting until now offered some advantage.

He needed to tell the entire story of his mother and his mother's family of five friends that she adopted.

Then, it needed to confuse the vampire emotionally, not understanding the concept of sacrifice or selflessness and how it would be a good thing.

That takes time.

Once that is done, the vampire is literally asking Durkon to show him how how to make sense of it.

Only then does Durkon even have permission to shove every single positive, warm, heartfelt memory of family into the hole where Durkula's heart should be, and force-feed him positivity until he vomits nothing but sunshine and warm summer days.

Basically, Durkula had to ask for it. Durkon set him up, and when the window was open, BAMMMMMM

He shoved the sunlight into his soul, and then the darkness vanished.

[Rrmcklin]

Also, for whoever was going to don't buy this because Durkula has had his own experiences, feelings etc, he's had like, what, a couple of weeks of those? I have no problem whatsoever that that can be overridden by Durkon's 54 (or is it 55?) years of life bombarding him all at once.

[Darth Paul]

Which of course started off in my head:

He is the very model of a G-I-T-P posting man,
He signs off posts politely as a Playground forum poster can,
He's very well acquainted with the Order and IFCC,
And lots of other characters we read about quite frequently!

Of course. :smallbiggrin:

[elliott20]

Rich is at the top of his game here. Goddamn. *wipes away tear*

[Lord_Drayakir]

Welp, that's it.

My prediction was correct, this was the most obvious, hackneyed, and an ass-pull of storytelling. If I, as a DM, ever did something like this to my PCs, they would call me out on this cliched BS.

I am no longer invested in the comic and no longer care what happens to the characters. I want to see how the story ends - too bad there's going to be another thousand strips before we come to what will be a probably unsatisfying conclusion.

[Nion]

Epic work, beautiful, thoughtful writing. I greatly appreciate this comic you have made for the world. Thank you, Giant.



I think that's a great way to put it. Also, on a completely unrelated note, kind of sad Poinchula didn't get the stake on her way out. Has anyone gotten the stake? Did I just miss it? There's vampires all around and Belkar made a stake, surely someone will be staked!

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1118.html

[chy03001]

I wonder if Greg still has spells.

They were bestowed by Hel but if he no longer serves her, then in theory his spells are taken away no?

Maybe Thor would be willing to supplement the rest ;-)

[warmachine]

I don't understand what selflessness Belkar had to think about. Vampire domination allows issuing commands, not sharing experiences. And I'm also surprised Belkar cares. He always struck me as a sociopath who dismisses altruism as foolish.

[The MunchKING]

I don't understand what selflessness Belkar had to think about. Vampire domination allows issuing commands, not sharing experiences. And I'm also surprised Belkar cares. He always struck me as a sociopath who dismisses altruism as foolish.

He's talking about the selflessness of dying at the teeth of Malek to save Belkar's life.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I don't understand what selflessness Belkar had to think about. Vampire domination allows issuing commands, not sharing experiences. And I'm also surprised Belkar cares. He always struck me as a sociopath who dismisses altruism as foolish.

He is still preoccupied with Durkon risking and losing his life trying to save Belkar.

Belkar didn't understand it then, thought it was illogical and stupid, and has been bad mouthing that decision ever since, and resisting the feeling that he is grateful to Durkon for doing so. Even before this very battle, he was ranting about how foolish the choice was, and how much better his own philosophy of selfishness and lack of empathy was.

But as he was saying it, everyone in the audience could tell he was lying to himself.

Even Belkar didn't really buy his own bull droppings. Which is why he had to keep telling himself what he was supposed to be thinking, as a chaotic evil character.

Belkar doesn't buy that his selfish philosophy is better than Durkon's, but he doesn't understand why, and that's what pisses him off so much.

Enough to rage like a barbarian.

[Keltest]

I don't understand what selflessness Belkar had to think about. Vampire domination allows issuing commands, not sharing experiences. And I'm also surprised Belkar cares. He always struck me as a sociopath who dismisses altruism as foolish.

Belkar is ticked off with Durkon for sacrificing himself to save Belkar. He's struggling to process the emotions that invoked, and blames Durkon for making him feel things he isn't used to feeling, like empathy and guilt.

[Darth Paul]

I don't understand what selflessness Belkar had to think about. Vampire domination allows issuing commands, not sharing experiences. And I'm also surprised Belkar cares. He always struck me as a sociopath who dismisses altruism as foolish.

He's been stifling his feelings about Durkon sacrificing himself in the pyramid all this time. The only way Belkar can find to express even gratitude, is through rage. He may be trying to attack Greg, but it's Durkon he's mad at.

EDIT: Wow. Triple ninjas!

[Ironsmith]

Welp, that's it.

My prediction was correct, this was the most obvious, hackneyed, and an ass-pull of storytelling. If I, as a DM, ever did something like this to my PCs, they would call me out on this cliched BS.

I am no longer invested in the comic and no longer care what happens to the characters. I want to see how the story ends - too bad there's going to be another thousand strips before we come to what will be a probably unsatisfying conclusion.

If it's any consolation, I see where you're coming from... as far as overused tropes go, "good spontaneously overrides evil with nothing but words" is near the top of the list.

However, I'd suspend judgement on that for a bit here. Even if you don't wanna hold this up as an awesome instance of such an event that makes the trope relevant, what happens afterwards has a gigantic effect on the relative quality of the usage. Comic's not over yet.

[Perficio]

Welp, that's it.

My prediction was correct, this was the most obvious, hackneyed, and an ass-pull of storytelling. If I, as a DM, ever did something like this to my PCs, they would call me out on this cliched BS.

I am no longer invested in the comic and no longer care what happens to the characters. I want to see how the story ends - too bad there's going to be another thousand strips before we come to what will be a probably unsatisfying conclusion.

Do you have any recommendations on stories that you do not find obvious / cliche? I'm curious how different our tastes are, and what we look for in a story for meaningful arcs and interesting twists.

[hroþila]

I don't understand what selflessness Belkar had to think about. Vampire domination allows issuing commands, not sharing experiences. And I'm also surprised Belkar cares. He always struck me as a sociopath who dismisses altruism as foolish.
Where have you been the last two books? Belkar has spent them both struggling with how his new-found empathy is shaking hs self-image as a sociopath, and on top of that he's spent the whole current book struggling with survivor's guilt.

Belkar is talking about Durkon's selflessness in facing Malack to save him and in doing it alone so that the rest of the Order wouldn't be dominated and killed, and also about his final request to Malack, when he didn't care about how own life and only asked him to spare the others.

[Finagle]

Y'know, man, you're really not in a position to expect other people not to post things you don't find value in.
Oh, I'm not expecting it. It's just a nice show of respect to other forum members to refrain from spamming your posts with the same text every time. That's what the sig file is for. And the avatar. And the location, biography, interests and all the other parts of the user profile. We've got plenty of room to express ourselves. But some of us feel we have to display status in public by doing even more and repeating the same dang thing over again. I've seen this on other forums, too. It's like conspicuously putting your name on a building.

[jafar]

He forced that dagger through her neck. She felt that one.

I think he used the dull dagger too.

[Resileaf]

I don't understand what selflessness Belkar had to think about. Vampire domination allows issuing commands, not sharing experiences. And I'm also surprised Belkar cares. He always struck me as a sociopath who dismisses altruism as foolish.

Belkar has been struggling with those feelings ever since Durkon died in front of him in the pyramid. He's yelling about those feelings, no relation to what's going on inside of Durkon's head except as a way to juxtapose Greg and Belkar's life experiences.

[Nion]

I wonder if Greg still has spells.

They were bestowed by Hel but if he no longer serves her, then in theory his spells are taken away no?

Maybe Thor would be willing to supplement the rest ;-)

That made me think...

I bet all the gods were watching this fight.



I don't understand what selflessness Belkar had to think about. Vampire domination allows issuing commands, not sharing experiences. And I'm also surprised Belkar cares. He always struck me as a sociopath who dismisses altruism as foolish.

Belkar was talking about selflessness of Durkon when Durkon saved Belkar from Malek.

Belkar (similar to evil Durkon) struggled to rationalize and accept the selflessness of a person sacrificially giving to others, even when the recipient(s) did nothing to deserve the help.

[hroþila]

Someone should really answer warmachine's post.

[crayzz]

On another note:

Greg and Belkar both being unable to deal with new emotions wrt Durkon is a really cool parallel.

[braveheart]

F*** yeah durkon for the win!!!

[Resileaf]

Someone should really answer warmachine's post.

It's not my fault posts move at the speed of light!

[jwhouk]

First of all - seven pages, and the strip's only been up for what, two and a half hours????

Secondly - heh, two guesses come true at the same time. Durkon essentially "Turn Undeads" Durkula, while Mr. Scruffy rubs the "Protect from Evil" medallion on Belkar.

The obvious thing to happen next strip, of course, is Durkon killing Belkar - unless of course Hilgya does it for him?

[Going Hereward]

I don't think I've ever waited so long for a page.

RIP Ponchula. If Minrah ain't getting out of this fight alive, you shouldn't.

Unalive.

... :smallannoyed: Whatever.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Someone should really answer warmachine's post.
I laughed when I saw that parade.

Was a fun parade to march in, too.

[Alsadius]

This is a fantastic strip, but everyone else has said that already, so I'm going to throw a theory out here.

Compare Belkar in #969 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0969.html) to Belkar in this one when his Protection from Evil clasp activates. In #969, he's obviously in pain from it - he's evil, and thus Protection from Evil hurts him. If I'm reading his facial expressions right, he's not in pain in #1130. He's angry, but he's not hurting physically. And that anger seemingly comes from Durkon - Durkon who acted selflessly, Durkon who made him think and feel. He's reacting to a moment of emotional stress, so he's still cranky, but he's not being harmed by Protection from Evil - it is only preventing the domination effect. The yellow glow is still there, but it's not causing the effects it did back in #969.

Belkar is in the middle of an alignment change.

[Turin_19]

This is so beautiful.

[Lkctgo]

This is one of the thread's crowning moments. This was epic.

[Askthepizzaguy]

So, it's official.

Durkon can kick a vampire's butt with both arms and legs tied behind his back.

[AutomatedTeller]

that is awesome. The funny thing is, I STILL don't know how this ends!! I mean, Durkon is still a vampire. Does he stay one, just with a different personality that is working with the order? Does he get killed? Does Belkar get killed?

Great comic!! Answers a couple of questions.

[Doug Lampert]

Really, Ponchella? What good would Harm have done there?

"I'm going to make you have 1 HP for real real, not just 1 HP for play play". GREAT use of what could've been your only action.

Try, I'm going to heal all my damage so your dagger fails to do enough to take me down me. Harm is pretty useful to undead.

[Perficio]

I don't understand what selflessness Belkar had to think about. Vampire domination allows issuing commands, not sharing experiences. And I'm also surprised Belkar cares. He always struck me as a sociopath who dismisses altruism as foolish.

Belkar isn't sharing in any of Durkula and Durkon's experiences, he isn't seeing or hearing the memories or even knows they're being exchanged. He's still talking about something that's been on his mind (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1115.html), the selflessness that Durkon displayed when he stopped resisting and just asked for his friends' lives (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0877.html).

Belkar is bothered by the way Durkon helped him, in a way not unlike Durkula's confusion.


On another note:

Greg and Belkar both being unable to deal with new emotions wrt Durkon is a really cool parallel.

(yes, this)

[Darth Paul]

Oh, I'm not expecting it. It's just a nice show of respect to other forum members to refrain from spamming your posts with the same text every time. That's what the sig file is for. And the avatar. And the location, biography, interests and all the other parts of the user profile. We've got plenty of room to express ourselves. But some of us feel we have to display status in public by doing even more and repeating the same dang thing over again. I've seen this on other forums, too. It's like conspicuously putting your name on a building.

Obviously you don't like signatures, since your own signature is all about how to turn off other people's annoying signatures (which in and of itself is a sort of annoying signature). But I can think of a lot worse things to sign with than "Respectfully". That you find a gesture of respect disrespectful, strikes me as odd.

And that's the last I have to say on the subject.

[hroþila]

This is a fantastic strip, but everyone else has said that already, so I'm going to throw a theory out here.

Compare Belkar in #969 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0969.html) to Belkar in this one when his Protection from Evil clasp activates. In #969, he's obviously in pain from it - he's evil, and thus Protection from Evil hurts him. If I'm reading his facial expressions right, he's not in pain in #1130. He's angry, but he's not hurting physically. And that anger seemingly comes from Durkon - Durkon who acted selflessly, Durkon who made him think and feel. He's reacting to a moment of emotional stress, so he's still cranky, but he's not being harmed by Protection from Evil - it is only preventing the domination effect. The yellow glow is still there, but it's not causing the effects it did back in #969.

Belkar is in the middle of an alignment change.
Nah. Compare it to 996 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0996.html), where Belkar was already expecting the pain so it didn't catch him off guard. His reaction there is undistinguishable from the one in this comic. The lines around his eyes are a sign of pain and discomfort.

[pendell]

Which of course started off in my head:

He is the very model of a G-I-T-P posting man,
He signs off posts politely as a Playground forum poster can,
He's very well acquainted with the Order and IFCC,
And lots of other characters we read about quite frequently!



In short in matters Wizards of the Coast-er
He is the very model of a GITP-Poster!

Now that song is going to sit in my head.

Thanks to Darth Paul and others for your support :). As towards the matter of my signature, I will consider it -- but no promises.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Rrmcklin]

Welp, that's it.

My prediction was correct, this was the most obvious, hackneyed, and an ass-pull of storytelling. If I, as a DM, ever did something like this to my PCs, they would call me out on this cliched BS.

I am no longer invested in the comic and no longer care what happens to the characters. I want to see how the story ends - too bad there's going to be another thousand strips before we come to what will be a probably unsatisfying conclusion.

Looking at your other posts it doesn't seem like you called this. Honestly it just seems like regardless of what happens you just want to complain about how "obvious, hackneyed, and ass-pull"ey it is. Which I'd imagine is a form of trolling but, I don't get to make that call.

[Unoriginal]

On other subject: music to read this strip with:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJiHDmyhE1A

[Dagny]

This was amazing and immediately took its place as one of my favorite pages. The story has been building up to this payoff for so long, and it delivered. It's everything I could have hoped for in a payoff. The character development in OOTS is the best thing among the many great things about it.

Edited to add:


If I, as a DM, set up a situation in which all my PC could do was talk and show memories when asked, and they managed to work out that overwhelming two weeks of memories with fifty-four years of them to obliterate or suppress their opponent's sense of self was a valid play in that situation and that they needed to set up a point where the opponent was feeling vulnerable enough to ask for that to happen, and they then went and did that... fair play and a solid win to them.

I think this is the best description I've seen so far of what happened. It really sums up how this isn't just the result of Durkon being a solidly Good person, but of him being a solidly Good person who executed a carefully-devised strategic play.

[Jubal_Barca]

Welp, that's it.

My prediction was correct, this was the most obvious, hackneyed, and an ass-pull of storytelling. If I, as a DM, ever did something like this to my PCs, they would call me out on this cliched BS.

I am no longer invested in the comic and no longer care what happens to the characters. I want to see how the story ends - too bad there's going to be another thousand strips before we come to what will be a probably unsatisfying conclusion.

If I, as a DM, set up a situation in which all my PC could do was talk and show memories when asked, and they managed to work out that overwhelming two weeks of memories with fifty-four years of them to obliterate or suppress their opponent's sense of self was a valid play in that situation and that they needed to set up a point where the opponent was feeling vulnerable enough to ask for that to happen, and they then went and did that... fair play and a solid win to them.

I certainly don't think we should see this at all as "good talks evil out of being evil". Durkon hasn't talked Greg into or out of anything, he's engineered a situation where he's defeated Greg by psychologically stomping his personally into mites of vampire dust. And getting the Vampire to invite him to do so. I would've found it a little hackneyed if it had been a soppy "Greg has turned to the light now because he's seen what good is like", but that's definitely not my reading of this comic.

[Alsadius]

Nah. Compare it to 996 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0996.html), where Belkar was already expecting the pain so it didn't catch him off guard. His reaction there is undistinguishable from the one in this comic. The lines around his eyes are a sign of pain and discomfort.

Good catch. You may be right. That said, it was Belkar's words that got me thinking about this, and I only compared faces afterwards. I think he's heading from CE to CN before his story ends, but you're right that I might be over-stating the case here.

Also, secondary theory I've been thinking for a decade or so now - Belkar will die near(but not at) the end of a lengthy strip. The last panel will involved someone uttering the line "Happy new year".

[Ralanr]

This reminds me a lot of Spiderman and Doctor Octopus.

[RichTF]

Regarding “things that make Durkon’s situation special”, i.e.: why doesn’t this sort of thing happen more often? Wasn’t it also mentioned in an earlier comic that it’s pretty rare for a high-level cleric to succumb to vampirisation?

So if we’ve started from an already unusually powerful cleric host, and combined that with Durkon’s “worst day” being connected to an act of pure altruistic self-sacrifice, in addition to Greg being a very young vampire AND raised artificially-quickly… Yeah, I can totally buy this being an exceptionally rare occurrence, possibly even a one-off in the entire history of OOTS-world.

[Banderwock]

No, I don't think this was inevitable. Consider the differences here between Durkula and the other vampires we know a bit about, Malack and Ponchula.

Malack slowly absorbed memories over a long time, during which he was making new memories as a vampire. The memories of his shaman template were fainter and vaguer than those drinking the blood of his once-relatives, and easily dismissed.

Ponchula wasn't so much absorbing the memories of a struggling host as working together with somebody who was down for being an evil vampire. They probably had an easy flow back and forth, but the conversation kept their identities somewhat separate... for now. Maybe they would have blended over time.

Durkula described himself as made-to-order for the holes in Durkon's heart, meaning he was fundamentally shaped around Durkon's self image from the start. He's had only a couple of days to operate, during which he's been pretending to be Durkon and surrounded by people Durkon knows - continuing Durkon-memories, instead of really making his own. He's had nowhere near the amount of time or distance needed to establish his own identity. And now Durkon took advantage of that, getting Durkula off balance with the emotions that he - as Durkon on his worst day, with some additional shaping by Hel - would be susceptible to... and overwhelmed him with memories to the point that Durkon's identity is now most of who Durkula is. I don't think it's 100%, but there's so little anything else in him - besides some knowledge of the plans Hel laid out - that he's now basically what he'd claimed to be before - Durkon, but a vampire and probably some alignment shift.

I don't think this is normal for a OOTS vampire at all. I think it's the combo of custom-made soul, the work of going incognito... and most of all, Durkon having the exceptional insight, wisdom, and stubbornness to figure out how to reframe Durkula's identity and make it happen.

Particularly agree with the above. I have interpreted it as Greg/Durkula being essentially a mirror of Durkon's personality, with vast differences in perspective. Durkon in his stubbornness and selflessness has "ne'er let go" of the possibility that he could eventually do something to help his friends and everyone he cares about. Although he had no control of his body, inside his head Durkon has maintained his identity and systematically revealed this perspective to bring about change. After accepting Durkon's memories and viewpoint, any differences between them are trivial (probably, unless they're no longer separate at all, or something).

Pre-Malack, like most vamped souls, certainly witnessed horrible things very early (his family, etc), and lacked the strength of will to resist effectively. The Evil maintained control, so the former perspective was ignored and former identity/memories selectively absorbed. IMO.

[factotum]

It does make sense with the way the Giant decided to handle vampirism; if the original soul is trapped inside (and by the rules it must be, else you could raise the soul with True Rez even without killing the vampire first)

Um, no? A person who has been turned into *any* type of Undead (even mindless ones like Skeletons) cannot be resurrected by any means, not even True Resurrection, unless the undead creature is destroyed. There's no requirement for the soul to be captured.

[Ironsmith]

On other subject: music to read this strip with:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJiHDmyhE1A

*flashbacks to cumulative years lost playing Civ IV*

[The MunchKING]

Looking at your other posts it doesn't seem like you called this. Honestly it just seems like regardless of what happens you just want to complain about how "obvious, hackneyed, and ass-pull"ey it is. Which I'd imagine is a form of trolling but, I don't get to make that call.

Well to be fair to him, when asked to describe what he thought it was going to be, he said


yah im totes not gonna b evil anymore bcuz self sacrifice is gud and im gonna throw away my service 2 hel bcuz my host showed me sum sad story

And now we have Durkula turning into Durkon (Presumably to not be evil anymore) because of the sad story his host showed him about goodness and self-sacrifice and all that. So while I think he's not giving it credit for being well told and incorporating the whole 'other good memories' bit, it does seem like he got the broad outline correct.

[Kish]

Durkon's worst day was being kicked out of dwarven lands.

What was connected to an act of pure altruistic self-sacrifice was his mother's worst day.

Lord_Drayakir predicted that Greg would turn to good because of "sum sad story[sic]", which is, in my view, rather different from "would realize he is actually Durkon after all." More to the point, I simply don't believe that he was ever invested in this story except to tear it down and try to make it into something it's not, which would have been entirely contrary to the themes of what it is and always was.

[Finagle]

Obviously you don't like signatures, since your own signature is all about how to turn off other people's annoying signatures (which in and of itself is a sort of annoying signature). But I can think of a lot worse things to sign with than "Respectfully". That you find a gesture of respect disrespectful, strikes me as odd..
I chose the word deliberately. By spamming "respectfully" in the message body instead of in the signature file where it belongs, it's disrespectful to everyone else who has to read the same thing, over and over.

[The MunchKING]

Um, no? A person who has been turned into *any* type of Undead (even mindless ones like Skeletons) cannot be resurrected by any means, not even True Resurrection, unless the undead creature is destroyed. There's no requirement for the soul to be captured.

Although "soul being trapped" would be a good explanation for WHY True Res can't just magic you up a new body and stick your soul in THAT. I mean it does it if you got your body completely annihilated, so you would think "Something else using it" wouldn't be a hassle either.

[warmachine]

Silly me forgetting about Malak.

Now that Greg and Durkon are the same, he's now a devout worshipper of Thor. Alas, I suspect Thor isn't fond of vampires and may even cut off spells. Greg/Durkon will have a new existential crisis.

[Kamendae]

This reminds me a lot of Spiderman and Doctor Octopus.

For me, the triggered memory was "Elminster in Hell" (Amazon link not supplied due to not-enough-posts-yet), which has much the same denouement.

[Kish]

I chose the word deliberately. By spamming "respectfully" in the message body instead of in the signature file where it belongs, it's disrespectful to everyone else who has to read the same thing, over and over.
You should stop claiming to speak for anyone but yourself.

[Sky_Schemer]

Regarding “things that make Durkon’s situation special”, i.e.: why doesn’t this sort of thing happen more often? Wasn’t it also mentioned in an earlier comic that it’s pretty rare for a high-level cleric to succumb to vampirisation?.

It's not the level of the cleric: it's the timing. Durkula only had so much time to pull this whole thing off. Other vampires have the luxury of assimilating memories slowly (several months according to Durkula) because they don't have a deadline measured in days. Durkula asked for a full dump because he can't process what he just saw.

[TriForce]

Even if Durkula gets staked, the Order doesn't have enough diamonds for a resurrection. They spent the cash on the boat people. I think Durkon ain't coming back. The story doesn't need him, anyway.



i Disagree, i believe these past few comics have shown EXACTLY why the story needs Durkon

[VoxRationis]

Satisfying though it might be to watch, I feel like this scene only works because it violates what was previously well-established about how vampires and their bodies' native souls operate. We were both told and shown earlier that the discussions and reactions the vampire and Durkon had were instantaneous from the perspective of outside time, which precludes the first half of this strip. Perhaps the "flood of all memories at once" works slightly differently, but that only applies near the end.

[Nazzo, the 102nd]

I made a quick look on the thread but didn't see it posted, so sorry if it was already said. But I noticed something: on the 10th panel of the second page, Durkon says "Exactly wha our Ma were afraid..." So it looks like that he already knew what was going to happen. This also matches neatly with Greg starting to talk like Durkon, in the last comic ("... from tha dead") and in this one ("I don't unnerstand").

[Askthepizzaguy]

Regarding “things that make Durkon’s situation special”, i.e.: why doesn’t this sort of thing happen more often? Wasn’t it also mentioned in an earlier comic that it’s pretty rare for a high-level cleric to succumb to vampirisation?

So if we’ve started from an already unusually powerful cleric host, and combined that with Durkon’s “worst day” being connected to an act of pure altruistic self-sacrifice, in addition to Greg being a very young vampire AND raised artificially-quickly… Yeah, I can totally buy this being an exceptionally rare occurrence, possibly even a one-off in the entire history of OOTS-world.
Yeah.

Rich really covered a lot of bases here. There was oceans of foreshadowing regarding how the vampires work, how Durkon in particular affected a person with Evil alignment (Belkar), the odd nature of this particular vampire coming into being, making it not a cookie cutter vampire, and everything you just said.

And the 'what we needed... was Durkon' line. So many things.

It was all there and even as late as the very previous strip I only had it as a 1:4 possibility, even though the narrative was screaming it at me. I thought there was a chance Sigdi or the other dwarfs came in, I thought Durkon merely causes Durkula to lose enough concentration that Belkar saves the day, nothing as spectacular as this, I thought Durkula himself would experience character growth maybe, and abandon the Order to go carry out his plan without finishing them off, so many other paths.

I was going to post this last thread, but when I concluded option 4 was narratively the best option, I just saved it in a wordpad and didn't post it.

1. Sigdi and/or the rest of her gang show up and assist in saving the day, because they meet every Wednesday. Either as the primary reason the day gets saved, as a secondary piece of it, or after the critical turning point has taken place. Even if it is just to cast some healing spells or something. I can see some foreshadowing which leads me to believe this is possible. I just think it is unlikely to be the primary reason why this situation would go pear-shaped for team evil.


2. Belkar (with a dash of Hilgya) save the day due to some blown concentration on the part of Durkula. Hilgya is in place to help the party and hurt Durkula and Belkar is in prime position to wipe out the rest of the vampires. The 'stakes' couldn't be any higher or closer, and I mean that in both ways. And he has an arc that is about to peak right around this point in the story. It could all be a mislead but I am still rooting for Belkar to be consequential here as part of his character growth. Less so for Hilgya. I just do not see how they can do this alone, something has to shake Durkula's concentration. Maybe this memory actually succeeds, maybe something more dramatic. You can clearly see Durkula's concentration and focus on the events happening outside his own head are waning. He is barely interested in the real world at the moment.


3. Durkula undergoes some kind of character change, growth, development, or exercises his free will in opposition to Hel's plan, as has been foreshadowed in certain dialogue. However, there is also a lot of indication that he is incapable of making those connections and growing in that fashion, as he is pure negative energy. I felt like maybe that was the direction this was going, because Durkon himself cannot actually affect Durkula, and so I felt like it had to be a voluntary or involuntary change on Durkon's part, either by losing concentration or by changing his mind. However...


4. It has been raised as a possibility that the real Durkon might be about to break free of the metaphorical binds holding him captive, since they seem to be based on this dark chapter of his own life, and might be the negative energy spirit's weakness, instead of its strength. The mistake on the part of Hel might have been choosing Durkon as a vessel, as perhaps those binds are there because Durkon chose that life, and it is a fundamental part of his personality. However, there are times, as this flashback indicates, that even a dwarf can release him or herself from the binds of duty when it comes to family. I think this will be harder to explain or pull off, but it could simply be a matter of releasing the binds, and challenging Durkula inside his own head. That could break the concentration and allow Belkar and perhaps Hilgya to do their thing. Even if Durkon can't do anything besides break free and capture Durkula's attention for a whole second, that could be significant.


5. I don't think Roy, Haley, Elan, Vaarsuvius, Scruffy, any other deus ex machina, or surprise characters, are narratively equipped to turn the tide here. There's too much foreshadowing and structure indicating that one of the other above options is correct. I think there is still a possibility I am missing something, and the Giant can go with this option and still make the story really good, I just don't think that's where we are headed. I think it is narrowed down to Sigdi/Sigdi's gang, Durkula, Belkar and possibly to a lesser extent, Hilgya, to turn the tide.


That said, I also think, somehow, option 4 is now the most likely. It's not going to be a change of heart by the heartless, if free-willed vampire. It's going to be Durkon himself succeeding somehow from behind the dead man's eyes.


At this point, it's even clear within the comic itself that the real battle is happening inside Durkon's head, between two souls. The real Durkon almost HAS to prevail here.


That said, given how the Giant used the Tarquin character to dispel the notion that the story has to be a certain way, I don't trust my own eyes, or my predictive ability. Nor would I ever bet against the Giant to come up with something I did not expect. That is basically a sure bet.


Even if any of the above is right, I still cannot tell which one it is going to be, and it's basically been spelled out for months. All the clues were there, and I still couldn't get it. Only now, when the comic is narrowing down the options rapidly, do I have any idea. And I still don't know.

I had all the pieces put together and I still wasn't sure. It was so well written and I trusted Rich could do anything to still surprise me.

I felt this was the strongest possibility (which someone else came up with to begin with) and I was still dumbfounded when I saw it.

I had a different idea a few strips ago about his dad still being alive to save the day. I'm dumb like that.

I discarded the dad idea when someone pointed out the troll/dragon couldn't have been descended from the family V killed, and it was ignoring the moral lessons of Sigdi's story anyway.

I thought Sigdi and the crew showing up was plausible because of the day of the week thing, which I probably focused way too much on.

Turns out, it was just to get Durkula to go away from the more crowded area so he could face him alone, so to speak. Now it adds up.

So great. I haven't been able to pick who dies next, and literally all my theories about how this would wrap up have been a disaster, no matter how close to the end we got.

Amazing story by Rich, cannot be overstated.

[Lethologica]

I'm reflecting on the first time Durkon* drew from Durkon's memories (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0948.html). All he wanted then was two little words, the knowledge without the experience, to help him imitate Durkon. Now he's begging for the full treatment. And in getting the full treatment, he's no longer just imitating Durkon, but becoming Durkon. What a journey it's been.


Looking at your other posts it doesn't seem like you called this. Honestly it just seems like regardless of what happens you just want to complain about how "obvious, hackneyed, and ass-pull"ey it is. Which I'd imagine is a form of trolling but, I don't get to make that call.
Technically, he 'called it'...but only in the #1129 update thread, after about 100 other people. As predictions go, that's akin to predicting what I'll have for breakfast this morning when I have a bowl full of milk and corn flakes and am reaching for a spoon.

[Zanzaras]

You should stop claiming to speak for anyone but yourself.

Absolutely, 100% agree with this statement. Thank you for voicing exactly what i was thinking.