So what happens to Durkula now?

[martianmister]

He's absorbed all of Durkon's memories and basically turned into him now. What will happen to him now? Will they kill the vampire body and destroy him? Will he stay within Durkon's mind?

[hamishspence]

Maybe "bound Durkon" will be released from the bonds - move toward "Durkula" and merge - the two becoming one.

The "Yer me" bit may be a hint that it's already in the process of happening.

After that - maybe Durkon will undo the relevant spells, apologise to the Order for Durkula's actions, etc.

[hroþila]

If they kill him, he goes back to Hel, who might not be the happiest bee and would perhaps give him a pretty hard time for all eternity.
If he survives, then he goes on unliving and is still in charge, but with a very different outlook.

Even if he wants to keep unliving (and I don't see why he wouldn't), he should have a hard time convincing the Order (especially Roy and Belkar) that everything is alright, for realsies this time. And even if he does, there's still Hilgya. It's not looking good for him, but he might manage.

[zinycor]

Probably will just hand Kudzu over to Hilgya, maybe resurrect Minrah, stop the dominatio nand then allow Belkar to kill him.

Afterall, it's not like the order wuld just believe him that he is good now, not after all that Greg has done.

[Jubal_Barca]

If they kill him, he goes back to Hel, who might not be the happiest bee and would perhaps give him a pretty hard time for all eternity.
If he survives, then he goes on unliving and is still in charge, but with a very different outlook.

Even if he wants to keep unliving (and I don't see why he wouldn't), he should have a hard time convincing the Order (especially Roy and Belkar) that everything is alright, for realsies this time. And even if he does, there's still Hilgya. It's not looking good for him, but he might manage.

Not sure this is true. Energy spirits don't have an afterlife, do they? So if the Vampire is staked, Original-Durkon goes to Valhalla and Neo-Durkon ceases to exist.

[hroþila]

Not sure this is true. Energy spirits don't have an afterlife, do they? So if the Vampire is staked, Original-Durkon goes to Valhalla and Neo-Durkon ceases to exist.
Yeah, probably.

[SlashDash]

My guess?

I can't see Durkon gaining control of his body while maintaining his vampiric nature. He can't stay a vampire for long.

Resurrecting him now seems unlikely, I mean even if they have the diamonds and Hilga can do it, they would use it on Minrah obviously (that WAS the whole point of his mother's memory).

So... Either Belkar will kill him - which... could happen I guess. But it can't happen right away. He needs to put the baby out of harm's way (No way Rich will put the baby at risk) and take off the anti life shell which is plenty of time to calm Belkar down perhaps.


Or... The victory over Greg is only temporary and he will be back in control somehow.
Enough to give the Order some time to recover, but not enough to eliminate the threat.
Maybe Hel made a contingency with him?

[sum1won]

My guess?

I can't see Durkon gaining control of his body while maintaining his vampiric nature. He can't stay a vampire for long.

Resurrecting him now seems unlikely, I mean even if they have the diamonds and Hilga can do it, they would use it on Minrah obviously (that WAS the whole point of his mother's memory).

So... Either Belkar will kill him - which... could happen I guess. But it can't happen right away. He needs to put the baby out of harm's way (No way Rich will put the baby at risk) and take off the anti life shell which is plenty of time to calm Belkar down perhaps.


Or... The victory over Greg is only temporary and he will be back in control somehow.
Enough to give the Order some time to recover, but not enough to eliminate the threat.
Maybe Hel made a contingency with him?

Minrah died honorably in battle.

[2.5 cats]

Probably will just hand Kudzu over to Hilgya, maybe resurrect Minrah, stop the domination and then allow Belkar to kill him.

I don't see Minrah coming back. She died in battle and "is up in Valhalla, drinkin' wit Thor." Most likely any attempt to raise her would fail as, like with Soon, her spirit would be like "Yeah, pass."

The rest is believable--though (undonimated) Hilgya may been Belkar for the honors.

[Kish]

Indeed. The whole point of the memory was most certainly not "resurrection is always for someone else."

In fact, even if someone read it as "resurrection is always for someone who died dishonorably," it would be tricky to find any of them around here; everyone who's died here recently has done so in battle (specifically battle against vampires) for some strange reason.

[Jubal_Barca]

Indeed. The whole point of the memory was most certainly not "resurrection is always for someone else."

In fact, even if someone read it as "resurrection is always for someone who died dishonorably," it would be tricky to find any of them around here; everyone who's died here recently has done so in battle (specifically battle against vampires) for some strange reason.

Darndest thing, really. It's playing havoc with the Firmament actuarial statistics department.

[SavageWombat]

No matter how much we love Durkon, it wouldn't ruin the story if he died heroically here. My bet is on getting a chance to explain something (briefly) and letting Belkar stake him for the good of the world. Hopefully that counts as "dying in battle" for Thor's purposes.

Durkon can then meet Roy's Archon on Mt. Celestia and we can learn more about that dangling plot thread.

[The Pilgrim]

Durkon will come back if resurrected because, though he has died honorably in battle and is bound for Valhalla, he still has a Duty to fulfill - To stop Xykon and save the world. Even if Hel's plans are twarted here, the dwarves will still go to Hel if the last Gate is blown and the Gods have to destroy the World.

[Jubal_Barca]

My thought line regarding survival of the Vampiric form is:


I really can't see how Durkon-Vampire plausibly gets the Order to accept him as a Vampire, even if he's now Good. Plus he has two very imminent threats to his corporeal form as two of the three nearest living beings.
The Order will ultimately leave for the last book with a cleric, because they need one, and I'm 99% sure that's going to be Durkon and not Hilgya.
I don't know how the Order persuades Hilgya that Durkon needs resurrecting aafter they dust the vampire body. She might not be up for that.
Unclear who can/cannot cast resurrection. Presumably some High Priests can - can Hilgya, and would she?
Expected outcome is in any case a resurrected Durkon because I think that, narratively speaking, Durkon has to be in the party for the final book and the other party members have to 110% accept him as such. But I dislike arguing from "I expect the narrative to demand X", it's an unsatisfying line of argument to me. I still think there's a maybe 25-30 percent chance of Durkon remaining a Vampire (and switching back to Thor I guess), and a much, much, much smaller chance (1% or so) of Durkon dying, and appearing as some sort of celestial guidance/support for the final book with maybe Hilgya taking over day to day cleric duties. I think that last outcome is very unlikely though.

[Stabbey]

For starters, it seems clear to me that "Durkula" is already gone. Durkula as a separate existence from Durkon is gone.

I don't know exactly what will happen next, but I do believe that Durkon will likely try and get the order up on their feet, warn Roy about the Exarch's plan for the council, and then willingly let himself be staked. The biggest obstacle to Durkon being resurrected is probably Hilgya, who seems to want Durkon dead, so she's a wildcard. My guess though, is that Durkon will somehow be restored to life by the end of this book. How we'll get there, I do not know. But I do know that Durkon would gladly give up his place in Valhalla - at least for now - to help fight Xykon and save the world.

It's not a case of we can only pick one to bring back: Minrah or Durkon - that's a false choice. Minrah only needs a Raise Dead, which is far cheaper and easier to obtain than a Resurrection, and Durkon could Raise Minrah if he was resurrected, so he's the logical candidate to pick.

[Inst]

When is Belkar going to breathe his last? The chances of it all ending up as G'kar - Londo are very high, except Londo gets raised.

I still can't keep from thinking of, say, the bandits in the woods. Ultimately, they did nothing wrong. The father bandit was closer to neutral than evil, and Rich just had Miko run up and kill them.

My greatest sympathies here ultimately lie with Celia. She's a relatively devoted pacifist, marred only in her willingness to associate with murderers (OOTS). She wants a peaceful solution for everyone, even chaotic evil / lawful evil types, whereas Rich, as comic artist, is very willing to kill them all; in a sort of genocide / alignment-cide of everything that's not at least neutral.

===

A long time ago, I noticed that, for some people, art functions purely as a release valve or a space for fantasy. In real life, you have incidents like the Vioxx murders, where the responsible parties got little more than a fine, and, depending on who you ask, tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of people died. While revenge murder, IRL, is completely unjustified, I can understand why someone might want a world where the evil person, persons, or entities get tortured or punished. But doing so, well, it's not wholly good for your alignment score.

[Rrmcklin]

No matter how much we love Durkon, it wouldn't ruin the story if he died heroically here. My bet is on getting a chance to explain something (briefly) and letting Belkar stake him for the good of the world. Hopefully that counts as "dying in battle" for Thor's purposes.

Durkon can then meet Roy's Archon on Mt. Celestia and we can learn more about that dangling plot thread.

Durkon already died in battle. That his corpse got taken over by a vampire spirit doesn't change that.

Yeah, Durkon staying dead probably wouldn't ruin the story (Mr. Burlew is a good enough writer that he could make it work) but letting Belkar stake him doesn't somehow help the world.

Which is why I'm not expecting Durkon to just immediately get killed now that he's essentially won. It would make this triumph entirely pointless.

[Stabbey]

When is Belkar going to breathe his last? The chances of it all ending up as G'kar - Londo are very high, except Londo gets raised.

I still can't keep from thinking of, say, the bandits in the woods. Ultimately, they did nothing wrong. The father bandit was closer to neutral than evil, and Rich just had Miko run up and kill them.

So making death threats and unprovoked attacks on a person who untied them is doing "nothing wrong" in your eyes? Very strange definition.


My greatest sympathies here ultimately lie with Celia. She's a relatively devoted pacifist, marred only in her willingness to associate with murderers (OOTS). She wants a peaceful solution for everyone, even chaotic evil / lawful evil types, whereas Rich, as comic artist, is very willing to kill them all; in a sort of genocide / alignment-cide of everything that's not at least neutral.

Why are you here at all if you despise these evil monstrous villains known as the Order of the Stick, created by the evil, monstrous, rabid warmonger Rich Burlew?

[SavageWombat]

Yeah, Durkon staying dead probably wouldn't ruin the story (Mr. Burlew is a good enough writer that he could make it work) but letting Belkar stake him doesn't somehow help the world.

Which is why I'm not expecting Durkon to just immediately get killed now that he's essentially won. It would make this triumph entirely pointless.

I'm not trying to parse out exact plot details, but someone suggested it might be necessary for all the vampires to be dead in order for Hel's plan to be thwarted.

[Rrmcklin]

I'm not trying to parse out exact plot details, but someone suggested it might be necessary for all the vampires to be dead in order for Hel's plan to be thwarted.

And that's incorrect. They just have to stop the Exarch (and the one lackey he took with him), and he's not (as far as the Godsmoot is concerned) the High Priest of Hel, so he doesn't matter for that. Durkula (or Durkon in control of him, or them sharing control) doesn't magically make Hel's plan succeed just by existing. If he's not cooperating with her, that's it.

[jwhouk]

Only thing I can think of in the immediate is that Kudzu prevents anyone from killing Durkon right away - including Hilgya - after he drops Domination.

The only question is, which of them will do the deed of killing Durkon?

[factotum]

In a way, I don't think they have the *time* to kill him. Doing so would then necessitate a search for a cleric high enough level to raise him from the dead, and they don't really have that time with the Exarch still floating around somewhere. Heck, Durkon will be fully aware of Belkar's suspicions--he may have something he can say which will prove he's back.

[RMS Oceanic]

In a way, I don't think they have the *time* to kill him. Doing so would then necessitate a search for a cleric high enough level to raise him from the dead, and they don't really have that time with the Exarch still floating around somewhere. Heck, Durkon will be fully aware of Belkar's suspicions--he may have something he can say which will prove he's back.

I suspect Durkon will remain a Vampire until the Godsmoot is resolved, and then the decisions about his future are made. And I do think he's getting staked. Technically Durkon isn't in control of his body, someone who thinks exactly like Durkon is in control. There's also the question of trust. I think the list of things Durkon could do that would completely assuage the Order's concerns, given he flipped once before, is very short.

[martianmister]

HPoH already said that Durkon's spirit is supposed to become dormant after he absorbed all of Durkon's memories. So, their spirits merging should be out of question.

[Fyraltari]

I wonder if Durkon#2's spirit is even made of negative energy anymore.
I think we will get some clarification next strip, but I don't think this is the normal process of vampirization. I believe that without Durkon's action Lurkon would have remained an evil version of Durkon rather than Durkon#2. Maybe the take-over was complete enough that should Durkon be resurrected (as Lurkon pointed out living Durkon is more useful than vampire Durkon) Durkon#2 would go to Valhalla to a very confused Tenrin?

[hroþila]

I wonder if Durkon#2's spirit is even made of negative energy anymore.
I think we will get some clarification next strip, but I don't think this is the normal process of vampirization. I believe that without Durkon's action Lurkon would have remained an evil version of Durkon rather than Durkon#2. Maybe the take-over was complete enough that should Durkon be resurrected (as Lurkon pointed out living Durkon is more useful than vampire Durkon) Durkon#2 would go to Valhalla to a very confused Tenrin?
I think this is normal, in that the end result was always going to be a vampire spirit that thought of his host and himself as the same being, and whose art/representation would look the same. The difference would be in how the vampire processed the memories and how they changed him - they would always change the vampire spirit to some degree, but the outcome should be very different depending on the nature and power of the memories, the way the vampire absorbed them (little by little, or in a massive dump, etc), and also on the vampire spirit's inherent personality, which in turn depends largely either on the host's innermost persona or on their darkest memories. That said, I don't think many if any people before Durkon managed to override the vampire spirit to this extent, although the next few strips might shed more light on what just happened so it might be a bit early to tell.

[Fyraltari]

I think this is normal, [...] That said, I don't think many if any people before Durkon managed to override the vampire spirit to this extent, although the next few strips might shed more light on what just happened so it might be a bit early to tell.

Yes this is what I meant by "not the normal way vampirization works".

I have been a proponent of "the vampire ends up very much like the host" for a while now, and I still am, but I don't think it usually goes this far. As in : I guess the vampire usually ends up looking like some alternate timeline evil version of the host (with cool undead powers).

[LuisDantas]

No way will Durkon choose to attain Valhalla right now.

For one thing, that would mean significantly raising the chances that he will not be there for very long. If Hel has her way, that may have literally eternal consequences for him. Then there are also Xykon and the Snarl to deal with.

He is a powerful Cleric, one of the few people aware of the urgency of the situation, and he enjoys little more than to put his efforts on a just and meaningful cause that will protect people. He won't be stopped. He definitely will not be stopped by frigging Belkar and at a moment in time when he is both vindicated and augmented by vampiric powers.

That said, it is not all that clear that Greg is gone for good. Even in their mental landscape the two versions of Durkon are still in perfect harmony, not fused. And we have only a brief moment to go from. They may easily merge, or it may instead turn out that the Hel-created spirit can be convinced, but not destroyed all that easily. Greg might become a conflicted (and distracting) inner voice in Durkon. Hel might decide to intervene by boosting Greg somehow - and that might cost her somehow.

[SlashDash]

Minrah died honorably in battle.
So? Roy died honorably in battle and had a great afterlife. They still brought him back.

The point of the story isn't just about Hel, it's also about saving 5 people over 1. If Durkon is still walking around, he can have his resurrection another day. And it's not like they don't know the location of loads of high level prie



My thought line regarding survival of the Vampiric form is:

[LIST]
I really can't see how Durkon-Vampire plausibly gets the Order to accept him as a Vampire, even if he's now Good. Plus he has two very imminent threats to his corporeal form as two of the three nearest living beings.

And let's not forget the crucial plot point that Durkon never learned Protection from Sunlight and that Malack's staff was destroyed. Unless they are bringing Tarquin's gang for this (Lorain did know how the staff works) the odds of Durkon being able to travel as a vampire are slim.

Remember where the next gate is? It's not in a dungeon, inside Azure city castle or inside a pyramid. It's a completely open field.



The Order will ultimately leave for the last book with a cleric, because they need one, and I'm 99% sure that's going to be Durkon and not Hilgya.

The problem here is, Loki sent Hilga specifically to help stop Greg. Even if Hel loses the vote, it's not over yet. As I keep repeating, Loki said that they are giving the mortals one last chance to battle at the last gate and if that fails, they can destroy the world in 10 minutes. Hel would still win in that situation, the world is still undone and the dwarves will die without honor. New world and Hel is in charge.

Once Roy has a chance to explain all of this to Hilga... How can she not go with them?
It's going against her god's wishes.

Unless... She's going to die here or something.


Expected outcome is in any case a resurrected Durkon because I think that, narratively speaking, Durkon has to be in the party for the final book and the other party members have to 110% accept him as such.

I was betting on him being Greg for the last book... But regardless, there's even more here that the narrative will demand - like Durkon actively forgiving the people who banished him.


Indeed. The whole point of the memory was most certainly not "resurrection is always for someone else."

In fact, even if someone read it as "resurrection is always for someone who died dishonorably," it would be tricky to find any of them around here; everyone who's died here recently has done so in battle (specifically battle against vampires) for some strange reason.
Look, the afterlife can be great and all, but Roy came back for a reason. The truth is, most people's afterlife are probably great and all, but people still want to spend time in the realm of the living.

I doubt they'll live Mirah dead. Even if they won't resurrect her now, she'll return off screen, just like the gnomes in Tinkertown or the guard that Belkar killed in Azure City.



I'm not trying to parse out exact plot details, but someone suggested it might be necessary for all the vampires to be dead in order for Hel's plan to be thwarted.
Not at all. There are 2 ways of stopping Hel :

1) Kill the official high cleric that's at the godsmoot (same way Roy tried to kill Greg). Actually you don't need to kill her, just get her out of the room.

Unlikely to happen, if that was plausible, they would have done that already instead of chasing Greg.

2) Make sure Dvalin vote the right way. If Dvalin votes against destroying the world it's over (for now) and it doesn't matter how many vampires are left.


No way will Durkon choose to attain Valhalla right now.
Obviously that makes very little sense. Durkon won't stay dead for the same reason Roy didn't. The world is still in danger.

Plus, if we're talking about the lesson of sacrificing your personal happiness to that of 5 other people? Durkon giving up Valhala now to save what? 10 million dwarves? Sounds about right.









P.S
Are we even sure that Greg is gone for good? It's very possible Durkon only has temporary control. It's not uncommon in situations like this for the person being controlled to go "Quick, kill me now before I lose control again"

[Psyren]

That's entirely up to her. Nobody can be rezzed against their will, and Minrah is undoubtedly with Thor after her performance today. If it weren't for her the Order would have failed/died long before Durkon's gambit. That might very well be enough contribution to the world's safety for her, and she'll thus earn her rest on the mountain.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

So? Roy died honorably in battle and had a great afterlife. They still brought him back.

Roy doesn't have to escape Hel's clutches every time he dies. He only needs to continue to be himself and he is assured to eventually go back with his mom and brother.

Minrah passed the gauntlet once already, but coming back means that if next time it's a gas leak that kills her, she won't get to go to the great afterlife.

Grey Wolf

[Stabbey]

So? Roy died honorably in battle and had a great afterlife. They still brought him back.

The point of the story isn't just about Hel, it's also about saving 5 people over 1. If Durkon is still walking around, he can have his resurrection another day. And it's not like they don't know the location of loads of high level prie

Minrah only needs a Raise Dead spell. Durkon needs a Resurrection, and that's not available just anywhere. Rez Durkon and he only needs sufficient diamonds to Raise Minrah, even if no one in Firmament is willing to pony up for it.

I can't see the OOTS going back to Mount Zenith.


And let's not forget the crucial plot point that Durkon never learned Protection from Sunlight and that Malack's staff was destroyed. Unless they are bringing Tarquin's gang for this (Lorain did know how the staff works) the odds of Durkon being able to travel as a vampire are slim.

Remember where the next gate is? It's not in a dungeon, inside Azure city castle or inside a pyramid. It's a completely open field.

I agree that Durkon is not likely to spend a great deal of time as a vampire. But the next gate IS inside a dungeon as far as we know.

I won't make any predictions about Hilgya, I have no idea where it could be going.


I was betting on him being Greg for the last book... But regardless, there's even more here that the narrative will demand - like Durkon actively forgiving the people who banished him.

Quote: "If you told [Durkon] it would help innocent people, he'd break his leg trying to boot his own ass out the door!"

Combine that Roy's knowledge of the prophecy with an official lifting of his banishment from the High Priestess and I think Durkon might understand.



Roy doesn't have to escape Hel's clutches every time he dies. He only needs to continue to be himself and he is assured to eventually go back with his mom and brother.

Minrah passed the gauntlet once already, but coming back means that if next time it's a gas leak that kills her, she won't get to go to the great afterlife.

Grey Wolf

By that logic, the moment a Dwarf comes of age, shouldn't they throw themselves at enemies in hopeless battles to ensure that they die with honor, thus going extinct in one generation?

Since that has not happened, clearly, Dwarves place some value on being alive, even if it means living with a certain degree of uncertainty.

[Kish]

I don't know about We. I roll my eyes whenever someone suggests that the massive epiphany that just happened here will be converted into "and when I say 'yer me,' I mean 'I am in control of you briefly, after which you will revert to being the mustache-twirling villain you've been so far.'"

[martianmister]

I would be disappointed in Roy if he won't raise Minrah.

1. Minrah already said that she don't want to die here:

Oh, Brother Sandstone! Save a seat for me in Valhalla, for I will avenge you! Before I need the seat, obviously! The seat is for later! I guess my point is, I'll eventually need the seat after some other unrelated battle, and I'd appreciate it if it was still available when I got there, in return for me doing the avenging thing for you now!
2. Roy already show interest in raising dwarves.

We'll come back and deal with the corpses long before it becomes an issue, if the world doesn't end. Maybe we can even raise some of them.
3. It would be hypocritical for Roy to not give her chance of returning to life.

Our lives may be insignificant to you, but they have all the meaning in the world to us. And I've been dead before, too- and for all the comforts of the afterlife, I'm in no hurry to trade this existence for that one.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

By that logic, the moment a Dwarf comes of age, shouldn't they throw themselves at enemies in hopeless battles to ensure that they die with honor, thus going extinct in one generation?

If you truly think that “Roy has less to fear from Resurrection than dwarves do” can be followed logically with “therefore all dwarves should commit ritual suicide” then you must be using a definition of “logic” I have never come across before.

However, what I think is actually happening is that you are not arguing in good faith, or are instead straw manning my position. I have no interest in engaging with either scenario, though, so good bye to you.

Grey Wolf

[KorvinStarmast]

I still can't keep from thinking of, say, the bandits in the woods. Ultimately, they did nothing wrong. The father bandit was closer to neutral than evil, and Rich just had Miko run up and kill them. the beginning of the Miko character development story and I hope that you understand how Miko ended up on the losing end of her entire take on the LG alignment. Rich has done a very good job of making four case studies of LG: Roy, O'Chul, Durkon, and (for how to bugger it all up) Miko.


My greatest sympathies here ultimately lie with Celia. She's a relatively devoted pacifist, marred only in her willingness to associate with murderers (OOTS). If you want to write off OOTS as murderhobos, I am pretty sure that you have not been paying attention. (See also Haley's on-point observation of how it works out for a pacifist ... IRL, pacifists are made possible when other people build and defend a society that protects their right to be oh so precious.
She wants a peaceful solution for everyone, even chaotic evil / lawful evil types, whereas Rich, as comic artist, is very willing to kill them all; in a sort of genocide / alignment-cide of everything that's not at least neutral. Not sure you have been reading the same strip I have, and I am sure you have not read the books, nor his various posts and commentaries on alignment. You also need to read War and XP's again. This time, for comprehension.
A long time ago, You stopped using reason and began using fallacious arguments. Got it. I thought you were logging out/leaving.

[Stabbey]

If you truly think that “Roy has less to fear from Resurrection than dwarves do” can be followed logically with “therefore all dwarves should commit ritual suicide” then you must be using a definition of “logic” I have never come across before.

However, what I think is actually happening is that you are not arguing in good faith, or are instead straw manning my position. I have no interest in engaging with either scenario, though, so good bye to you.

Grey Wolf

So instead of assuming I didn't understand your point and clarifying, you're going to dismiss it as a strawman and leave?

Roy's circumstances are irrelevant to whether Minrah should be raised or if raised would choose to come back. The argument you are presenting - as far as I can tell - is that Minrah is better off dead or would choose not to come back because "what if I die dishonorably later". "What if I die dishonorably" later is a possibility that every Dwarf has to live with every day of their lives, and yet that apparently does not stop them from continuing to live.

[Fyraltari]

IRL, pacifists are made possible when other people build and defend a society that protects their right to be oh so precious

Oh, you do not want to go there.

No, really you don't. There's a no-politic ban in place remember.

[Aeson]

Roy doesn't have to escape Hel's clutches every time he dies. He only needs to continue to be himself and he is assured to eventually go back with his mom and brother.

Minrah passed the gauntlet once already, but coming back means that if next time it's a gas leak that kills her, she won't get to go to the great afterlife.

Grey Wolf
Not that I think it's an unreasonable assumption, but do we actually know that only how a dwarf dies for the final time counts? I don't think that the argument that the soul of a given dwarf goes to Thor as long as said dwarf died with honor at least once, even if not most recently, is all that much more of a stretch than the argument that the dwarf that died of mummy rot in 737 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html) goes to Thor because he contracted mummy rot fighting a mummy while defending an orphanage. The dwarf did, after all, die with honor.

Just seems like the kind of thing Hel and Thor might argue over.

[KorvinStarmast]

Oh, you do not want to go there.

No, really you don't. There's a no-politic ban in place remember. I am generally happy to, but actually we should not go there because that kind of RL/moralizing isn't welcome here. yeah, let's not do that. Good call, Fyraltari. The observation Rich made through Haley is here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0540.html): "Pacifism is tricky that way" and that suffices.

[Peelee]

By that logic, the moment a Dwarf comes of age, shouldn't they throw themselves at enemies in hopeless battles to ensure that they die with honor, thus going extinct in one generation?


Given that our only glimpse of dwarven society is the life of one disabled veteran and her young son, I think it's a bit of an leap to assume that there are no wars. Or at least, no violent conflicts: Sigdi's husband and a lot of innocent miners died in a troll attack, after all, with no war required. Monsters are everywhere, especially in underground tunnels.

While the line about picking a fight with a tree was intended for comedy, the point still remains that if you know for certain you will only get a good afterlife if you die with honor, you are far more likely to deliberately go seek out an enemy to fight—whether it's orcs, giants, drow, duergar, etc.—as soon as you know you're sick or getting old. I imagine honor duels are probably a very common way of settling the score between two feuding dwarves: If I win, then I win, but if I lose, I still get an honorable death. And again, if you're sick, why not provoke a duel you know you will lose?

Also, there are certainly ways to die with honor that don't involve combat. If there's a cave-in and you take the time to save another dwarf but can't get out yourself before it collapses, that's an honorable death even though you were killed by a falling rock.

Basically, this all comes down to the fact that the dwarves know, for a fact, that this is how the world works for them. There's no reason to assume that they don't have methods for dealing with it.


The dwarves would view "getting to die peacefully in your bed surrounded by your kids and grandchildren" as a terrible fate to be avoided at all costs. What dwarf in his right mind could look his progeny in the face at that moment, knowing that their disgraceful life of meek cowardice was in full evidence to all? What dwarf wouldn't hide their shame that their parent or grandparent had met such an ignoble end? That sort of mewling death whimper may be good enough for the humans, with their bizarre fixation on individual achievement over the collective good of the species, but no decent dwarf would trade a glorious death for a few more decades of weak-willed life. No, sir. Dwarven life is long enough already, and putting your own life above the needs of the community is just self-serving greed.

Look at Sigdi in the first strip she appears in. She is not in combat; she is retired. But when an accident happens in front of her, she springs into action—even though she is less equipped to help than any other adult present. If that dwarven laborer had dragged her off the mountain, she would have died with honor, but she did not help that man because doing so would have allowed her to die with honor. She helped him because it was the right thing to do. That's the dwarven way: Do the right thing regardless of the danger, knowing that if the danger overwhelms you, you'll be rewarded in the next life.

Therefore, a dwarf who lives to be 300 is probably one that has turned away from every accident or dangerous situation they have been presented with in their long, long life, and is to be pitied and shunned for dying peacefully at home. It may be an achievable goal for them, but it is not a desirable one.

Or, to put it another way: They wouldn't care that you thought it was sad.


The proper solution is actually, "Live a life of honor and service to your fellow dwarf so that whenever you happen to die, you'll be in the middle of acting honorably." Yes, a dwarf can live their life like a selfish coward and hope to wiggle out in the end, but most dwarves don't do that. In fact, many dwarves probably live their lives as they wish and let the chips fall where they may with regard to their death, trusting their gods will give them the opportunity to act honorably when the moment is upon them. Many dwarves probably resign themselves to their fate in Hel anyway, because they would view "gaming the system" as cheating.

Dwarves live for hundreds of years. During that lifespan, there will be at least some moments where they have the choice to either act boldly and (possibly) die with honor, or act cautiously and live. Their knowledge of their afterlife will therefore encourage the majority of dwarves to pick the former, and if they find themselves having picked the latter too many times an end up old and dying, well, then there are causes they can pledge themselves to for that last hurrah. That doesn't mean they walk into an orc camp unarmed and get cut down, it means they keep fighting orcs past the point when they should retreat.

Basically, everyone's talking about the few dwarves who don't act like dwarves their entire life and somehow manage to get to be old and infirm. They're outliers at best.
Probably not.

[Kish]

I doubt they'll live Mirah dead. Even if they won't resurrect her now, she'll return off screen, just like the gnomes in Tinkertown or the guard that Belkar killed in Azure City.

1) The gnomes Crystal killed in Tinkertown got resurrected? Citation needed.
2) The guard Belkar killed in Azure City got resurrected? Citation needed, and no, a statement that they planned to have him resurrected would not actually qualify, given that Shojo got killed and then the city conquered before Belkar paid anything.
3) Why Minrah and not Cindy, or any of the other innocent dwarves recently killed here? Why not one of the slaves Tarquin burned alive?

Most people who die stay dead. Not that a story in which a group of high-level heroic adventurers resurrects everyone nonvillainous who dies on their adventures would necessarily be a bad story...but it's not this story.



I mean even if they have the diamonds and Hilga can do it, they would use it on Minrah obviously (that WAS the whole point of his mother's memory).
is completely insupportable. Minrah is neither damned, nor five people. You asserted that the whole point of the memory was something goofy and unrelated to any reasonable conclusion to draw from the memory.

[Fyraltari]

3) Why Minrah and not Cindy, or any of the other innocent dwarves recently killed here? Why not one of the slaves Tarquin burned alive?

I am completely with you but it should be noted that Minrah had the courtesy of leaving behin a mostly intact corpse rather than a whole lot of mist/ash that probably got all mixed together and with the local dust like everybody else did in that fight. So that's convienient.

[LuisDantas]

That's entirely up to her. Nobody can be rezzed against their will, and Minrah is undoubtedly with Thor after her performance today. If it weren't for her the Order would have failed/died long before Durkon's gambit. That might very well be enough contribution to the world's safety for her, and she'll thus earn her rest on the mountain.

Far as we have been told, there will be no gauging of how much contribution she gave. She has earned Valhalla if she died with honor (which she obviously did), Hel otherwise.

Roy's afterlife had such a gauging of merits, but that was playing by other rules in other afterlife realms.

[Fyraltari]

Far as we have been told, there will be no gauging of how much contribution she gave. She has earned Valhalla if she died with honor (which she obviously did), Hel otherwise.

Roy's afterlife had such a gauging of merits, but that was playing by other rules in other afterlife realms.

No her honorable death has "earned" her the right to be treated the same as everyone else, she will be processed by a deva (or equivalent) to see if she met the standards of her alignment (LG I guess) and be acepted in if she did and sent elsewhere if she did not. I guess she did, though.

[SlashDash]

Roy doesn't have to escape Hel's clutches every time he dies. He only needs to continue to be himself and he is assured to eventually go back with his mom and brother.

Minrah passed the gauntlet once already, but coming back means that if next time it's a gas leak that kills her, she won't get to go to the great afterlife.

Grey Wolf
Sorry, but no. A lot of posters here keep assuming that dwarves are somehow different in their afterlife than other people. They actually aren't.

The criteria by which Dwarves are judged are different, they only have "honor" as a criteria instead of their general alignment, but the process remains the same.

We've seen Hel and Thor argue over a dwarf's soul in an equivalent way of the Deva judging Roy.

Roy did do a couple of bad things in his life - things that Deva noted. Like leaving Elan to be captured by bandits. If Roy gets resurrected, he might not have a chance to die "dishonobrably" and reach Hel, but he could equally fall into some sort of temptation or a feat of rage and do something evil that would sentence him to Hell. One more "L" isn't that much of a difference, is it?

So how exactly is Minrah and Roy different? You go back to life? You risk getting judged for the bad afterlife. Yeah, that's kind of the point of life in the perception of a theological afterlife.

As others have quoted, Minrah clearly planned to live a lot longer.

And frankly, if the judging process includes something as silly as fighting a tree... One has to wonder what are the odds of someone reaching Hel to begin with.


Minrah only needs a Raise Dead spell. Durkon needs a Resurrection, and that's not available just anywhere. Rez Durkon and he only needs sufficient diamonds to Raise Minrah, even if no one in Firmament is willing to pony up for it.

I can't see the OOTS going back to Mount Zenith.

Sure, if you can do both at the same time? There's no dilemma.




I agree that Durkon is not likely to spend a great deal of time as a vampire. But the next gate IS inside a dungeon as far as we know.

No, we know that Xykon thinks it is. It doesn't mean it's actually there.
And unlike the previous gates, this one requires going through a massive open space.

Yes, they can try and go there at night or try to obtain that spell somehow. But what are the odds of that?



Combine that Roy's knowledge of the prophecy with an official lifting of his banishment from the High Priestess and I think Durkon might understand.

Of course he understands. I'm talking about the dramatic moment of us seeing Durkon forgiving them.
It's likely to happen simply by rules of it being an extremely dramatic moment worth showing.

Mandatory? No, nothing is mandatory.

[Kish]

I take it you're just dropping the assertion that the gnomes Crystal killed got resurrected, then.

Beyond that, while I think the difference between the dwarven afterlife and everyone else's can be overplayed, it's absolutely not true that there is no difference. Eugene Greenhilt is Exhibit A. He got resurrected every time he died until he finally died of old age. He's hanging around outside Celestia complaining that he hasn't been let in yet, where a dwarf who did that would go to Hel automatically. Thus, the number of dwarves who, however wealthy they are or how powerful their friends are, are resurrected whenever they die can be safely assumed to be somewhere in the vicinity of 0.

(I don't think Minrah's going to stay dead specifically because she's a dwarf, though if the subject of resurrecting her ever comes up someone may mention that she's in a positive afterlife now. I think she's going to stay dead because--as you highlighted by bizarrely claiming the opposite is the case--the vast majority of the random casualties in the Order's adventures do stay dead. She will, indeed, be exactly as resurrected as the gnome in panel 8 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0975.html).)

Edited to add: That is, if it's a question of resurrecting her or using the same diamonds to resurrect Durkon. She may be incidentally resurrected or raised (because she happened to die in the right place at the right time, unlike the luckless gnomes in that earlier comic) if doing so doesn't conflict with Durkon's resurrection. Which seems to be the flip side of what you're asserting now, though you started off saying that Durkon wouldn't be resurrected or remain as a vampire.

[Lord Vukodlak]

For starters, it seems clear to me that "Durkula" is already gone. Durkula as a separate existence from Durkon is gone.


“There is no Durkula only Durkon”
Probably the first good use of that trope.

[jwhouk]

“There is no Durkula only Durkon”
Probably the first good use of that trope.

But Sigourney Weaver was so much hotter in the original...

[factotum]

No her honorable death has "earned" her the right to be treated the same as everyone else, she will be processed by a deva (or equivalent) to see if she met the standards of her alignment

She still needs to have some sort of processing that happens *before* that to determine if she died honourably, though. Think of the times we've seen Thor and Hel arguing over recently deceased souls in the strip--it's clearly not some automated system where the soul gets their Honour stamp and is thus given a free pass to final judgement.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Sorry, but no. A lot of posters here keep assuming that dwarves are somehow different in their afterlife than other people. They actually aren't.

The criteria by which Dwarves are judged are different, they only have "honor" as a criteria instead of their general alignment, but the process remains the same.
No, it does not (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html). First they pass Hel's gauntlet, and if they are determined to have died with honor, then they go on to have their interview with the Deva or whomever for placement in the appropriate afterlife.

Grey Wolf

[hroþila]

Honestly, if I were the Order I would want to raise Minrah (assuming I had the diamonds), but I probably wouldn't try until this situation was resolved, and I don't think she'd want to come back either. I don't think a young, healthy dwarf would have a death wish just to make sure they'd die with honour (that'd be silly - you just need to look at how societies with similar beliefs in the afterlife operated, and you won't really find that kind of thing except in literature), but the threat of eternity with Hel is too concrete here to ignore.