Balancing Different Level PCs in PVP Pathfinder Combat

[OzzyKP]

I have just spent altogether too much time trying to answer a simple question in my arena combat game (https://www.myth-weavers.com/forumdisplay.php?f=42690):


Would a level 1 group like to take on a level 4 character, PVP? How many players do you think would be required? How would the rewards/XP be sorted for such a match?

I looked over this (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/), this (https://gamingeveryman.wordpress.com/2014/02/10/the-math-behind-cr/), this (https://gamingeveryman.wordpress.com/2014/02/17/xp-rewards-for-fun-and-profit/)and this (https://gamingeveryman.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/gm-guide-2-xp.pdf), but the math is melting my brain so I'm throwing up my hands and hoping y'all can come up with a better answer than I have been able to.

The combat should be balanced for each side. All my attempts just confuse me further. Ahhh.

[MrSandman]

The problem with CR is that it is intended to calculate what a group of four characters of X level should be able to defeat without spending more than 20%(?) of their resources. It won't help you see what is a balanced fight, because that's not its purpose. Its purpose is to see how challenging a fight is (and it does a poor job at that).

What exactly do you want? Do you want to make sure that both sides have more or less the same power? Then you should consider class tiers as well as optimisation level alongside character level.

[Psyren]

Not the answer you probably want to hear, but this game just isn't designed for PvP. Attempting to come up with a one-size-fits-all balance point based purely on mathematical considerations like level leads to exactly the experience you had.

Even layering in qualitative information like class tiers isn't enough, because the biggest x-factor is player skill.

[zlefin]

generally speaking; 3 lvl 1 chars to fight the single lvl 4 char. (assuming both are using PC classes and the same wealth tables, and you want an even match)
this is according to the rules of the system. whether it's actually fair in practice is a very complicated question.

and the XP reward for the winner would be 1200 (no matter which side wins), divided up amongst however many are on the winning side.

[OzzyKP]

generally speaking; 3 lvl 1 chars to fight the single lvl 4 char. (assuming both are using PC classes and the same wealth tables, and you want an even match)
this is according to the rules of the system. whether it's actually fair in practice is a very complicated question.

and the XP reward for the winner would be 1200 (no matter which side wins), divided up amongst however many are on the winning side.

I was thinking that, because both sides are valued at 1,200 XP, but then I questioned it. The 1st level group has an APL of 1, so a CR4 opponent is CR+3. Would the reverse be true? Would the three 1st level PCs be a CR+3 challenge for the 4th level character? What's the APL of a single PC?

[zlefin]

I was thinking that, because both sides are valued at 1,200 XP, but then I questioned it. The 1st level group has an APL of 1, so a CR4 opponent is CR+3. Would the reverse be true? Would the three 1st level PCs be a CR+3 challenge for the 4th level character? What's the APL of a single PC?
pathfinder may have some issues with its math so it doesn't matchup, but let me see.

The APL calculations
It looks to say that a party of 3 should hvae its APL lowered by 1 compared to a group of 4. The group of 3 1st level'ers has an APL of whatever's below one. It simply doesn't have a clear table entry. for convenience you can simply call them level 0. functionally it means going down a step on the CR table, though there really shouldn't be an entry in it for 2/3 or 3/4 for that to work out right, and I don't see one.

A single char should have an APL of his level - 4. so his APL should also be 0, or which ever equivalent you use for the next step below 1. I'll just use 0 for now on because it's easier to work with.

A single PC-classed PC-wealth person of level X is a CR X encounter.
both parties are APL 0, and both groups would be a CR 4 encounter.

so for both sides it represents a CR+4 encounter.

[OzzyKP]

pathfinder may have some issues with its math so it doesn't matchup, but let me see.

The APL calculations
It looks to say that a party of 3 should hvae its APL lowered by 1 compared to a group of 4. The group of 3 1st level'ers has an APL of whatever's below one. It simply doesn't have a clear table entry. for convenience you can simply call them level 0. functionally it means going down a step on the CR table, though there really shouldn't be an entry in it for 2/3 or 3/4 for that to work out right, and I don't see one.

A single char should have an APL of his level - 4. so his APL should also be 0, or which ever equivalent you use for the next step below 1. I'll just use 0 for now on because it's easier to work with.

A single PC-classed PC-wealth person of level X is a CR X encounter.
both parties are APL 0, and both groups would be a CR 4 encounter.

so for both sides it represents a CR+4 encounter.

That's well reasoned enough for me, thank you! I'll go with your recommendations.

[exelsisxax]

You don't balance such things. You don't do them, or accept the inevitability that it will be unfair.

[noob]

You don't balance such things. You don't do them, or accept the inevitability that it will be unfair.

If all of them are featless warriors(the npc class) with no equipment and that they all have the same stats and just go toward the other side and punch the closest opponent until the fight is over then we can probably find a number of warriors of level 1 that will be close to having 50% chance of success against one level 4 warrior

[exelsisxax]

If all of them are featless warriors(the npc class) with no equipment and that they all have the same stats and just go toward the other side and punch the closest opponent until the fight is over then we can probably find a number of warriors of level 1 that will be close to having 50% chance of success against one level 4 warrior

And the number will change if you give them all toughness, and change again if you let someone else assign point-buy, and change again if you let them use weapons, and again if they get armor, etc.

There is no formula for balance. CR is not balance in any way - it is an extremely rough, often wildly inappropriate ballpark estimate for the amount of attrition it inflicts. Using it to balance things would be using it wrong.

[noob]

And the number will change if you give them all toughness, and change again if you let someone else assign point-buy, and change again if you let them use weapons, and again if they get armor, etc.

There is no formula for balance. CR is not balance in any way - it is an extremely rough, often wildly inappropriate ballpark estimate for the amount of attrition it inflicts. Using it to balance things would be using it wrong.
I specified that there was cases where we could balance.
Of course if people start taking feats or having different stats or having equipment or even class features or worst of all starts using tactics that is not just entering in contact then hitting until the opponent is no longer here then balancing becomes near impossible.
the thing is that most of the dnd adventures use adventurer teams with people who are not all identical and featureless(and the players does not stick to the tactic of going in contact then hitting it to deatch which is even worse for evaluating the danger of encounters) which makes the creation of balanced encounters impossible.

[Psyren]

And the number will change if you give them all toughness, and change again if you let someone else assign point-buy, and change again if you let them use weapons, and again if they get armor, etc.

There is no formula for balance. CR is not balance in any way - it is an extremely rough, often wildly inappropriate ballpark estimate for the amount of attrition it inflicts. Using it to balance things would be using it wrong.

Agreed, and it's especially wrong to use it this way for classed NPCs instead of monsters. CR not only includes a monster's stats, in many cases it includes basic AI for how it will behave in a fight. A dryad for example who howls for blood and rushes into melee with its nonmagical dagger against a full party without using any of its SLAs is likely not the encounter the designers intended when assigning its CR. Monsters include basic information about their tactics and drives that can help provide context to the challenge they present. CR also includes items and treasure that a monster may have access to and ability to use, both of which are very broad categories for classed NPCs, who are often humanoids.

For monsters, that kind of tactical information is rudimentary at best, but it's at least there. For classless NPCs, it's not present at all, so there is no objective standard with which to truly measure difficulty. CR = class levels gives you a starting point, but the idea is to build on that rather than run with it blindly.