How to run a flying monster encounter?

[Wonton]

Pretty much what the title says, in theory a big flying beast doing hit-and-run tactics should be terrifying. It should really challenge parties that lack ranged damage options. The ability to fly - on paper - should be a massive advantage.

In practice, a party of 4 melee can just stand still and defeat a flier by using readied actions + AoOs to swipe at it twice every time it comes down. This is what has happened in every flying monster encounter I've seen, except for those where the party intentionally chose to split up.

Possible solutions I can think of:

- Tumble/Acrobatics: Most monsters lack these skills actually. Good luck making that check with nothing but a +2 from Dex.
- Ranged attacks/magic: Sure, a dragon would just choose to avoid melee altogether. But what about a Roc? A Giant Eagle?
- Wait to split the party up: Yes, this is the most logical option, and what any predator would do but... it's simply not always possible. "Don't split the party" is a well-known adage, and unless the encounter starts with a COMPLETE surprise attack, most parties will regroup immediately at the sign of a flier.

So yeah. What would you do?

tl;dr - Although a big scary flier should be a terrifying encounter, especially for a melee-heavy party, I feel like the game's mechanics don't really allow this to be the case.

P.S. Interestingly, 5e actually improves on this over 3.5/PF since AoOs and Readied Actions are both reactions and you only get 1 reaction per round.

[zlefin]

first, decide how terrifying you actually want the encounter to be.
just cuz a flier is big and scary doesn't mean it's actually a real threat to the party. part of the point of flying, evolutionarily, is to be better able to pick and choose what to fight; and a flier will be weaker than an equivalent ground creature.

also note that most predators aren't played realistically. most predators wouldn't attack a party that was dangerous; it's too risky. and they'd run after taking some damage if they did decide to attack (unless they were starving and desperate, or defending their nest).

in terms of more threatening tactics:
a Roc has snatch; so it should try to grab one person and fly away with them.
or try to knock someone off a ledge/make them fall. and avoid engaging unless the opponents are in a vulnerable position.
pick up rocks and drop them on the party.

[tyckspoon]

Why should flight necessarily make what is functionally just another melee monster all that much more dangerous than a ground-bound one? The advantage of flight is that you can maneuver in ways that non-flying opponents can't reach you; almost all of that advantage is lost if your only means of attacking is coming close enough to exchange blows with the ground. You either need some way to attack from range or have longer reach, and if you're actually incurring Attacks of Opportunity your monster clearly doesn't have either. So.. why do you expect them to be any more dangerous than a ground enemy? Especially when they're trying to charge a united front of swords and spears? That doesn't work out too hot for a ground based opponent either.

[Darth Ultron]

First, check out the rules of the game articles on the Wizards site:

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040629a

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040706a

The feats, Flyby Attack(see any Monster Manual), Improved Flyby Attack and Greater Flyby Attack(Savage Species), Power Dive( Draconomicon) , Improved Flight( Races of the Wild,)

Also Hover(Monster Manual) and Winged Warrior(Races of the Wild) and Wing Expert
( Races of the Dragon) gives all sorts of taticl moves for a flyer.

Hurling Charge(Miniatures Handbook) works good with flying foes.

Mobility and Spring Attack, can both effect AoO.

Pounce works just a good for flying creatures. A great way to get it is the Feral template (but only on 1st round, Savage Species).

Quite often a flying creature will want to use the Charge action. Even more so with say Diving Charge(masters of the wild).

Flying foes are really made to be Scouts. Skirmish is a great ability, when the attacker will be doing a fly by attack.

Note for a Ready Action: Ready is basically a mentally rehearsed plan to perform some action in the next few seconds. To focus on executing that plan when you detect some trigger, you give up everything else: no movement, no standard actions, and no free actions (including talking). So if you're intending to walk along with this plan ready to execute, you're already out of luck; you can't move with a readied action. You have to finish the movement, then plan what you'll do if some trigger (such as a pit trap opening) occurs.

[ViperMagnum357]

Adding to the above, if the flyer has a breath weapon, then Flyby Breath and Strafing Breath from DLCS open up a bunch of options; especially combined with the metabreath feats like Clinging Breath and Lingering Breath.

[Zaq]

Don't just use the flying thing solo. Readied actions screw with your place in the initiative order and can cost you turns if you're readying and something else isn't. This isn't as big of a deal when you're fighting a solo critter, but it can be pretty costly if it's got friends.

[Kayblis]

Rocs are Gargantuan. If you can't avoid being hit as a Gargantuan creature, you're doing something wrong. He has 15ft reach and Snatch.

[ericgrau]

Even a dragon has a weak ranged attack (due to recharge time) and weak PC ranged attacks can take him down if he doesn't switch to melee. Any melee worth his salt should at least have a 0 gp sling; or a single decent ranged PC might do it. That's why flying is over-rated: when you get right down to it it's just another defense that often hurts the user's offensive contribution. True hit and run might be a single fly by attack (or breath weapon) and flee very far. Possibly with poison, a special ability, or another annoying special effect. Heal up and return. But then PCs will heal too. So you whittle down their spells. Except wands of CLW, but they might not have enough, and special effects might help there too. If there's a strategic plot target see if you can nab a piece of it. Or disarm and fly off with a weapon or other object. Anything to whittle away and flee immediately because even at full HP PCs might gang up on the flier and take him down. Even then it's not certain.

So... don't expect it to be as epic as online rants whether it's low or high optimization. Play it smart and cautiously realizing that the fliers won't dominate and need to be careful. And you can have an interesting and difficult but not overwhelming encounter.

EDIT: Yeah, repeated fly-by attacks with reach works too as people are stating, then you can't ready an action. That still eliminates full attacks and drops offense so weak ranged attacks have a chance, but it won't be easy. Likewise a difficult but not dominating fight.


Don't just use the flying thing solo. Readied actions screw with your place in the initiative order and can cost you turns if you're readying and something else isn't. This isn't as big of a deal when you're fighting a solo critter, but it can be pretty costly if it's got friends.
So the PCs focus on his friends and then on him afterwards. That's the problem with a lot of defensive strats; hurting your offense while possibly leaving other targets open. If you're doing hit and run then everyone better be doing it. What you're saying might work if you can find a glass cannon flyer. But a roc for example will contribute more with landing on the ground and full attacks. If he's doing hit and run while his allies aren't, he's really just dumping his contribution and leaving his allies to die so that he can be next. The classic glass cannon flyer would of course be a flying caster in the group. But he better be using overland flight. And since overland flight doesn't allow hovering he better be in a wide open space. Spending the opening round on casting fly is a major loss to the caster's offense and leaves his allies unaided for a round. Not worth it.

[finaldooms]

im rarely allowed to run monsters as intended in my games -.- most of the people i party with cant handle it

since this is about flying monsters..a few years back my party had to deal with 2 white dragons ( idr the age but it could cast magic) now first off they were in an extremely large cave that could easily fit a couple of drow cities in it but they had the option to lure said dragons into a smaller space

they choose not to and im guessing up to this point they have always had dragons land infront of them and engage in a melee fight..in otherwords never using their real abilties ( although to be honestly dragon melee is still kinda scary)

so instead of that i had the pair go into the air and start fighting them from the air..party had no idea how to handle that since the dragons would dive down and breath weapon or bite at them etc, cause reach is a thing..they finally pulled some bows out and i think there was a wizard? ( maybe a necromancer) and did that the dragons ended up using one of the fog spells after getting pinged a couple of times and after killing the rogue ( ironically with breath attacks) the party choose to run away

needless to say they were not happy that my dragons were not willing to straight up fight them ..ended up spending the rest of that session explaining to them that life doesnt always work the way you want it to lol ...they slowly learned from the experience untill i sent a roc and just ran away with the party kobold ..and thats how they learned FoM is helpful against big things

anyways story time is over ..groups of fliers are a good choice when sending them at the party..remembering that MOST fliers have reach or some other way of attacking at range is also helpful.and if its ever an organized fight then using a mix of fliers and ground units is a great way to make a normal fight suddenly a challenge since you cant focus on 1 or the other with readied actions cuase the opposing guys with just start chewing through them