Constructs vs Undead: Which is Best?

[unseenmage]

Am pretty sure undead win this hands down.
They're easier to create; meaning cheaper, faster, and less resource intensive.
Can a Construct master ever really keep up with a necromancer let alone even surpass them? Doubtful.

So I ask instead, which wins out if their masters/creators are removed from the equation?
In an all out Ultimate Battle of Ultimate Destiny style fight where one of each kind stand on opposite sides of a line in the sand which army wins?

EDIT: Link to clarifications and rules. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23257808&postcount=55)

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Shaper psions are absolutely fantastic at making very powerful construct juggernauts in short order, especially with some focus (such as through the 3.5 constructor (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625b) PrC). They tend to be immune to almost anything undead can dish out, and they have everything from melee attacks to AoE blasts to force attacks for incorporeals.

[RoboEmperor]

Am pretty sure undead win this hands down.
They're easier to create; meaning cheaper, faster, and less resource intensive.
Can a Construct master ever really keep up with a necromancer let alone even surpass them? Doubtful.

So I ask instead, which wins out if their masters/creators are removed from the equation?
In an all out Ultimate Battle of Ultimate Destiny style fight where one of each kind stand on opposite sides of a line in the sand which army wins?

WHAT? Construct wins hands down. t3h f*** you talkin about.

1. You can't get the corpse you're looking for 100% of the time. You can however build the construct you want 100% of the time.
2. Animate Dead is weaksauce.
3. Create Undead and Create Greater Undead is uber weaksauce.

So the only undead worth a damn is one mega-boosted by class features, desecration, and a **** load of templates but I doubt any of them can take out a Shadesteel Golem. Or a Max HD Shadesteel Golem. Or an Iron Colossus.

How about Hydra Effigies? No undead can come close to that around equal CR.

[Gullintanni]

WHAT? Construct wins hands down. t3h f*** you talkin about.

1. You can't get the corpse you're looking for 100% of the time. You can however build the construct you want 100% of the time.
2. Animate Dead is weaksauce.
3. Create Undead and Create Greater Undead is uber weaksauce.

So the only undead worth a damn is one mega-boosted by class features, desecration, and a **** load of templates but I doubt any of them can take out a Shadesteel Golem. Or a Max HD Shadesteel Golem. Or an Iron Colossus.

How about Hydra Effigies? No undead can come close to that around equal CR.

For what it's worth, neither Iron Colossi nor Atropals can do more than inconvenience each other. At high CR, it's a stalemate.

[RoboEmperor]

For what it's worth, neither Iron Colossi nor Atropals can do more than inconvenience each other. At high CR, it's a stalemate.

You can't create an Atropal though, that's what this thread is about. Creatable undead and constructs.

I repeat, no creatable undead can beat the hydra effigy in damage or the shadesteel golem in anything.

[BlackOnyx]

Not as well versed in constructs as undead, but I'll toss in my thoughts anyways.


If we're talking a straight up arena fight, I could see constructs having a bit of an edge. As others have mentioned, they tend to be decent bruisers with immunities to a lot of effects that undead can dish out. That said, a lot really rides on the specific varieties of undead and constructs selected for the fight. Certain combinations of undead are very well suited to buffing others of their kind.


That said, in a more "sandbox" style fight (i.e. an ongoing conflict), I'd definitely lean toward undead. The ability of many undead races to (A) more easily/quickly heal and (B) self-propagate would allow them to eventually wear down whatever construct army they were up against. Constructs are solid tanks, but their upkeep typically isn't cheap or easy.

[unseenmage]

Just had an awful thought...

Can we get an undead to use the Greater Humanoid Essence spell a lot somehow? If so its plausible that humanoid-ified Constructs slain by another undead with the Create Spawn ability come back as undead versions of themselves. Ew.

Completely dependant on the ruling of whether spell effects stay active on a corpse or not. And I've seen that ruled both ways.

[Afgncaap5]

Necromancer: FOOLS! Your armies will merely add to the number of MY armies! Your fallen comrades will rise anew as-

Artificer: *Hits Iron Golem with a wrench until it stands up again*

Necromancer: Wait... wait, what are you doing?

Artificer and Iron Golem: *High five*

Necromancer: Stop that! Stop, I... I mean, my undead can be fixed again TOO!

Artificer: *Hits wrench on the pile of bones left by fallen skeleton*

Necromancer: Wait!

Iron Golem: *Hits wrench on fallen zombie*

Necromaner: WAIT!

Artificer, Iron Golem, Flesh Golem, and Bone Golem: *Four way high five*

Necromancer: STAHP!

[RoboEmperor]

Not as well versed in constructs as undead, but I'll toss in my thoughts anyways.


If we're talking a straight up arena fight, I could see constructs having a bit of an edge. As others have mentioned, they tend to be decent bruisers with immunities to a lot of effects that undead can dish out. That said, a lot really rides on the specific varieties of undead and constructs selected for the fight. Certain combinations of undead are very well suited to buffing others of their kind.


That said, in a more "sandbox" style fight (i.e. an ongoing conflict), I'd definitely lean toward undead. The ability of many undead races to (A) more easily/quickly heal and (B) self-propagate would allow them to eventually wear down whatever construct army they were up against. Constructs are solid tanks, but their upkeep typically isn't cheap or easy.

Lets do a 1v1. Shadesteel Golem with a heightened shadow evocation continual flame v.s. your best undead! Because that's what this thread is about right? Best construct v.s. best undead.

I'm honestly curious because the only undead I know are 40hd dragon zombie/skeletons with the spellstitched template (I think) raised by a dread necro with proper feats. Not a huge undead fan so no idea what an optimized endgame undead minion looks like.

[Eldariel]

WHAT? Construct wins hands down. t3h f*** you talkin about.

1. You can't get the corpse you're looking for 100% of the time. You can however build the construct you want 100% of the time.
2. Animate Dead is weaksauce.
3. Create Undead and Create Greater Undead is uber weaksauce.

So the only undead worth a damn is one mega-boosted by class features, desecration, and a **** load of templates but I doubt any of them can take out a Shadesteel Golem. Or a Max HD Shadesteel Golem. Or an Iron Colossus.

How about Hydra Effigies? No undead can come close to that around equal CR.

What about Animate Dread Warrior? Any class levels or whatever acquired. Or Animate Dead on a Dragon? Zombie Dragons retain breath weapons and have no HD limits. I made a small study on those a while ago (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?499642-Best-Dragon-to-Zombie-Dragon), though that's by no means exhaustive. Hydra Zombies and Skeletons are both really efficient too as are simple giants and whatever. PAO your Dragon Bodies and Animate them, just go to town. Undead are extremely powerful, though yes, getting the corpse can be a hassle occasionally. Dragon Zombies offer e.g. Disintegrate Lines as Su-abilities and in general, an array of great breath weapons.

[RoboEmperor]

PAO your Dragon Bodies and Animate them, just go to town.

We should exclude this particular trick as it is a blatant RAW exploit.

[ben-zayb]

Most created constructs lack T1 spellcasting, and spellcasting is king, giving undead the edge with Bone creatures, Corpse creatures, Vampires, Liches, Dracoliches, Lichfiends, and Spectral creatures
. Also more created constructs than created undead are mindless, which gives tactical and strategic edge to the undead. Not to mention that created undead like Vampires, Wights, Shadows, Spectres, and Spectral creatures, have easy ways to infect others monster types (mostly humanoids) into their own undeadpocalypse

Anyone care to stat up both an ECL5/10/15/20 constructs and ECL5/10/15/20 undeads and let them duke it out? That would be fun to see

[Dimers]

Most created constructs lack T1 spellcasting, and spellcasting is king ...

If the spells are well chosen, which is assuming a lot in a contest with no listed guidelines. There are a fair number of self-buffs that undead can't apply (e.g. morale or anything else mind-affecting), and standard golems are immune to anything with SR:Yes.


Also more created constructs than created undead are mindless, which gives tactical and strategic edge to the undead.

That, on the other hand, does definitely favor undead, especially outside the bounded flat plane with no terrain features.

Undead tend to have better senses than constructs, too. Knowing the enemy is crucial!

Constructs are more likely to win a DR contest. So, y'know, if it were WotC-built constructs against WotC-build undead, my money would definitely be on the constructs.

[RoboEmperor]

Most created constructs lack T1 spellcasting, and spellcasting is king, giving undead the edge with Bone creatures, Corpse creatures, Vampires, Liches, Dracoliches, Lichfiends, and Spectral creatures

You exaggerate (except liches). The OP clearly states created undead v.s. created constructs. Liches are not something creatable, it is an ascension path chosen by a highly accomplished, possibly epic, spellcasters and is therefore not a created mook.

This is not undead v.s. constructs. It's created undead v.s. constructs. Otherwise constructs will bring in Umbral Blot who will make mince meat of any and all undead, including liches.

In any case I point you towards the Runic Guardian who gives FREE spells. FREE Simulacrum for an army. This is clearly not what the OP asked for but i mention it to show constructs have their own spellcasting power.

Constructs are spell immune (the good ones anyway) so only SR:NO spells are usable against them. And the Epic Golems are flat out immune to all spells and supernatural effects so Eldariel's Disintegrate Dragon is worthless against them.

edit: IMO that disintegrate dragon, if allowed pre-epic, will probably slaughter all the constructs. Disintegrate is just too strong. If epic is allowed though hands down constructs win.

[Quertus]

It looks like several people went a different direction with this than I did.


1. You can't get the corpse you're looking for 100% of the time. You can however build the construct you want 100% of the time.

Ok, by RAW, in cities of size X, one can acquire things of worth Y. Slaves have a listed cost. So, by RAW, one can acquire any possible living creature in a large enough city. Undead are much easier to acquire components for than the generally more expensive golems. So I think you've got that backwards.


How about Hydra Effigies? No undead can come close to that around equal CR.
Anyone care to stat up both an ECL5/10/15/20 constructs and ECL5/10/15/20 undeads and let them duke it out? That would be fun to see

Are we actually caring about CR?

If anything, it seems like we should stat up "best army one could afford with WBL at level 5/10/15/20".


You can't create an Atropal though, that's what this thread is about. Creatable undead and constructs.

Are we? My Cleric can absolutely control many undead that he cannot create directly.


Lets do a 1v1. Shadesteel Golem with a heightened shadow evocation continual flame v.s. your best undead! Because that's what this thread is about right? Best construct v.s. best undead.

I'm honestly curious because the only undead I know are 40hd dragon zombie/skeletons with the spellstitched template (I think) raised by a dread necro with proper feats. Not a huge undead fan so no idea what an optimized endgame undead minion looks like.

Best undead? Um, how about something sentient with tier 1 class levels, like a vampire or lich?


Most created constructs lack T1 spellcasting, and spellcasting is king, giving undead the edge with Bone creatures, Corpse creatures, Vampires, Liches, Dracoliches, Lichfiends, and Spectral creatures

I see you already went there.

EDIT:
The OP clearly states created undead v.s. created constructs.

This is not undead v.s. constructs. It's created undead v.s. constructs. Otherwise constructs will bring in Umbral Blot who will make mince meat of any and all undead, including liches.

And the Epic Golems are flat out immune to all spells and supernatural effects so Eldariel's Disintegrate Dragon is worthless against them.

edit: IMO that disintegrate dragon, if allowed pre-epic, will probably slaughter all the constructs. Disintegrate is just too strong. If epic is allowed though hands down constructs win.

Hmmm... That changes things a bit.

Well, I don't read the OP as being about created, but controlled.

But I'll have to take a better look at the epic golems, to see if the undead actually stand a chance. I initially rather discounted them, as they're too expensive for anyone to ever actually consider making, but that's not the name of this game.


Am pretty sure undead win this hands down.
They're easier to create; meaning cheaper, faster, and less resource intensive.
Can a Construct master ever really keep up with a necromancer let alone even surpass them? Doubtful.

So I ask instead, which wins out if their masters/creators are removed from the equation?
In an all out Ultimate Battle of Ultimate Destiny style fight where one of each kind stand on opposite sides of a line in the sand which army wins?

One of each type? Do you mean one effigy lion, one effigy tiger, one effigy bear (oh my!)? Well, undead greatly outnumber constructs. So, for every Effigy, there's a skeleton, zombie, bone, corpse, etc. And then there's most of those variants for plenty of creatures one cannot make an effigy of.

But those are just dross cannon fodder. They cannot really hurt the high-end golems or undead.

However, I think that the NI level lich with his Rod of Construct Control (or several) pretty well dominates this battle. Especially since most golems lack the intelligence to target him, even after he starts dominating their ranks.

And the zombie dragons and Dracoliches of every Dragon of every size and type? Or, my personal favorite, adding in the multiheaded template? How many golems can stand up to that?

But, in a battle where there's only one effigy? I think that the one NI level lich, one NI level vampire, one NI level bone creature, one NI level corpse creature, one NI level ghost, etc, will rather blatantly be won by the undead.

[Pleh]

You exaggerate (except liches). The OP clearly states created undead v.s. created constructs. Liches are not something creatable, it is an ascension path chosen by a highly accomplished, possibly epic, spellcasters and is therefore not a created mook.

This is a good point. Are there any *creatable* undead that actually get to select spells? If not, then the point of spellcasting is moot.

Also, more importantly, the song was titled "The Ultimate Showdown of Ultimate Destiny."

[Quertus]

The OP clearly states created undead v.s. created constructs.
This is not undead v.s. constructs. It's created undead v.s. constructs.


This is a good point. Are there any *creatable* undead that actually get to select spells? If not, then the point of spellcasting is moot.

Um, guys? I read this:



So I ask instead, which wins out if their masters/creators are removed from the equation?
In an all out Ultimate Battle of Ultimate Destiny style fight where one of each kind stand on opposite sides of a line in the sand which army wins?

as allowing controlled creatures, not just created ones.

Further, the OP seems to have already given the "real" battle to the necromancer, and is just asking about a "one of each" battle, where the golems don't suffer quite so much from numerical disadvantage.

Although, honestly, I'd love to test the OP's assumption on just giving the fight to the necromancer, in addition to running their intended challenge.

[RoboEmperor]

Um, guys? I read this:




as allowing controlled creatures, not just created ones.

He says "are removed from the equation" right after...

[Quertus]

He says "are removed from the equation" right after...

Right, because,



Am pretty sure undead win this hands down.
They're easier to create; meaning cheaper, faster, and less resource intensive.
Can a Construct master ever really keep up with a necromancer let alone even surpass them? Doubtful.

So I ask instead, which wins out if their masters/creators are removed from the equation?
In an all out Ultimate Battle of Ultimate Destiny style fight where one of each kind stand on opposite sides of a line in the sand which army wins?

He's already given it as a foregone conclusion that the necromancer will out-create the artificer. That the armies of a real necromancer will defeat the armies of a real artificer. So he's trying to level the playing field a bit, by making it "one of each", rather than "an army of the size a necromancer can realistically field".

At least, that's how I read it. I'm just not sure which reading of "one of each" to use - one effigy, or one effigy of each creature one might make an effigy from, for example.

[RoboEmperor]

Right, because,




He's already given it as a foregone conclusion that the necromancer will out-create the artificer. That the armies of a real necromancer will defeat the armies of a real artificer. So he's trying to level the playing field a bit, by making it "one of each", rather than "an army of the size a necromancer can realistically field".

At least, that's how I read it. I'm just not sure which reading of "one of each" to use - one effigy, or one effigy of each creature one might make an effigy from, for example.

If creators are allowed then the battle becomes Artificer v.s. Lich. If Epic Spells are allowed Lich wins, otherwise liches still win because liches can be TO wizards right? 1v1 it'll end with a stalemate because Liches can create magic items too so it becomes one of them TO caster v.s. TO caster battles but the artificer is clearly outnumbered because there aren't any artificer variants like there are lich variants.

In order to even have a battle I think the creators have to be excluded in which case imo Epic - Constructs win (I think them golems and colossi are literally invincible), no-epic undead wins (because of disintegrate).

[Quertus]

imo Epic - Constructs win (I think them golems and colossi are literally invincible), no-epic undead wins (because of disintegrate).

So, you think that the non-epic undead will win, because the caster undead having disintegrate will be too huge an advantage?

But, epic, you don't think that the casting undead having epic spells, or unlimited advancement, could give them the advantage?

The Adamantine Golem is quite the beater, but with only DR 20, the 40-headed colossal+ epic zombie dragon seems like it could take it, even without buffs from its caster undead allies.

The Umbral Blot seems quite the menace. I can't realistically believe that an undead army not specifically prepared for it won't suffer heavy casualties to this thing.

I haven't looked at the Colossus yet.

[sleepyphoenixx]

This is a good point. Are there any *creatable* undead that actually get to select spells? If not, then the point of spellcasting is moot.

Also, more importantly, the song was titled "The Ultimate Showdown of Ultimate Destiny."

Several templated undead get to keep caster levels. Animate Dread Warrior (UE), Bonesinger (GW), Spectral Mage (MoF) and Crypt Creature (MoF) are all creatable and keep casting.

[Quertus]

Regarding the necromancer vs artificer...

At 5th level, Animate Dead comes online. Assuming I spent all my 9,000gp WBL on onyx, that's 180 skeletons, over the course of... hmmm... 5 per casting, 3 castings per day -> 12 days.

If all my XP were from fighting skeletons (while plundering ancient graves for corpses), I could possibly have dominated an additional... hmmm... CR 1/3 -> 20+30+40+50=140 skeletons, or X times that in a party of X (560 for the classic 4-man party).

To overcome DR, the skeletons I animated are proficient in free quarterstaves. To increase their feeble durability, I've got Corpse Crafter, and sat in my church for 2 weeks animating them.

So, that's 180+540=720 skeletons on a rather optimized 5th level necromancer.

Yes, most are uncontrolled, but that just means that they follow their last order, like "follow us, fight what we fight" or something.

-----

By 10th level, I can probably have a Tainted Sorcerer cohort animating my undead for free. So, now the limit is just his HP (which is not a problem if my church has a Heal room from the stronghold builder's guidebook) and spell slots. With a cranked up Taint score on an Arcane Spellcaster, I shouldn't have much trouble getting 10 castings of Animate Dead a day. Which sounds like 20 ogre skeletons per day to me.

To get from level 5 to level 10 fighting nothing but ogres would 10+14+20+27+40=111 corpses, or around 444 for the standard 4-man party.

At 20 per day, that's 23 days of downtime to animate our dead foes back at the church.

Meanwhile, having spent the 49-9=40-> 40,000 gp gain in WBL on items to lower turn resistance... hmmm... Rod of Defiance (11k, -4), Lute of the Restful Soul (3k, -4) and raise level.. Phylactery of Undead Turning (11k, +4), it would be easy to dominate a 15HD undead, even without custom items, custom Bestow Curse curses, or Disciple of the Sun cheese. That's just prefect for a lich, actually!



In short, at 5th level, with less than 2 weeks of downtime, a modestly optimized necromancer could field 720 skeletons (180 with quarterstaves and +6 HP/HD).

By 10th level, with just over 3 weeks of additional downtime (for 5 weeks of downtime total), we're adding 444 ogre skeletons (still with quarterstaves and +6 HP/HD), and a pet lich.

How's the artificer looking?

[ben-zayb]

You exaggerate (except liches). The OP clearly states created undead v.s. created constructs.Did you bother looking up the nonlich creatures I was referring to on my post that you replied to? Those are literally what you were looking for: created undead without removing spellcasting. Bone/Corpse from Create Greater Undead, and Vampires/Spectral creatures (not Spectres!) from Create Spawn.

I was not bringing up any necromancer vs artificer, at all.

What this boils down to is that these noncasting constructs are astronomically inferior to spellcasting undead. Even with AMF and magic immunity, spellcasting is a versatile enough system to not be hindered by these 2 limits.

EDIT: And of course, epic means epic spellcasting. Again, having spellcasting is just plain superior in terms of matchups against those that don't have it or just have pale imitations a la Runic Guardian.

[RoboEmperor]

So, you think that the non-epic undead will win, because the caster undead having disintegrate will be too huge an advantage?

But, epic, you don't think that the casting undead having epic spells, or unlimited advancement, could give them the advantage?

The Adamantine Golem is quite the beater, but with only DR 20, the 40-headed colossal+ epic zombie dragon seems like it could take it, even without buffs from its caster undead allies.

The Umbral Blot seems quite the menace. I can't realistically believe that an undead army not specifically prepared for it won't suffer heavy casualties to this thing.

I haven't looked at the Colossus yet.

Again, there are no creators in the battle so there is no caster undead allies except from like spellstitched undead, so no epic spells. I said lich v.s. artificer liches win specifically because of epic spells.
Umbral Blot is uncraftable so he's out too.

What's a 40-headed colossal+ epic zombie dragon? o_O? Never heard of it before. Which base creature are you referring to?

AFAIK the only creatable undead in epic are zombie dragons because of Draconomicon, so if they can't take out the Mithral Golem, Adamantine Golem, Stone Colossus, Iron Colossus, and Flesh Colossus, it's game over. Keep in mind their CON is 0 so their 2613hp drops to 507.

Flesh Colossus is healed by negative energy (Shadesteel golem)
Stone Colossus is healed by transmute mud to rock (Runic Guardian)
Iron Colossus is healed by electric damage (Prismatic Golem)


Did you bother looking up the nonlich creatures I was referring to on my post that you replied to? Those are literally what you were looking for: created undead without removing spellcasting. Bone/Corpse from Create Greater Undead, and Vampires/Spectral creatures (not Spectres!) from Create Spawn.

I was not bringing up any necromancer vs artificer, at all.

What this boils down to is that these noncasting constructs are astronomically inferior to spellcasting undead. Even with AMF and magic immunity, spellcasting is a versatile enough system to not be hindered by these 2 limits.

EDIT: And of course, epic means epic spellcasting. Again, having spellcasting is just plain superior in terms of matchups against those that don't have it or just have pale imitations a la Runic Guardian.

If the Undead is literally just a wizard with a template then yes the Undead would win hands down. As you said spellcasting is just way too ****ing powerful. I'd still find it hard to believe a necromaner can find a regular supply of wizards and the like.


Meanwhile, having spent the 49-9=40-> 40,000 gp gain in WBL on items to lower turn resistance... hmmm... Rod of Defiance (11k, -4), Lute of the Restful Soul (3k, -4) and raise level.. Phylactery of Undead Turning (11k, +4), it would be easy to dominate a 15HD undead, even without custom items, custom Bestow Curse curses, or Disciple of the Sun cheese. That's just prefect for a lich, actually!

I can't comment on everything else you said because, you know, I'm not an undead expert so I can't check your work, but if you're dominating undead then I will point you toward the Rod of Construct Control! Which is you know, NI constructs.

In any case the Artificer would probably have a 12hd hydra effigy buffed with magic items.

[enderlord99]

someonenoone11 seems to have convinced himself that liches are the only undead with spellcasting of their own, and that no liches therefore means no spellcasting.

[sleepyphoenixx]

If the Undead is literally just a wizard with a template then yes the Undead would win hands down. As you said spellcasting is just way too ****ing powerful. I'd still find it hard to believe a necromaner can find a regular supply of wizards and the like.

You must play some very strange campaigns if the PCs are the only high level guys around. Do you never go up against enemies with class levels?
Also Crypt Spawn (MoF) can be applied to any living creature and keeps all abilities, including spellcasting. So creatures with racial casting are fine too.

[RoboEmperor]

Do you never go up against enemies with class levels?

Yeah, you caught us red handed. We usually fight CR appropriate monsters rather than a spellcaster because, you know, the DM has to intentionally play the spellcaster suboptimally if he doesn't want to wipe us out. And half of us aren't optimizers.

Actually, we need to address the issue of templated casters.

Half-Golems can be applied to anything and everything, and they retain their spellcasting too so...

Once you start using epic wizard half-golems that failed their will save so now they're a construct, and epic wizard bone/corpse creature, or whatever other template, then it truly just becomes a caster v.s. caster TO thing.

I'm a refrain from posting until unseenmage slaps down a new rule XD.

Because otherwise it's really just a caster v.s. caster thing, and Undead have a metric **** ton more casters than constructs so...

[magicalmagicman]

Whether who will win is determined completely by what corpses the necromancer has access to. If we go by 100% reliability and 0% luck, then the necromancer should be restricted to corpses he can obtain from planar binding or gate. I think using undead with class levels is unfair.

[ben-zayb]

If the Undead is literally just a wizard with a template then yes the Undead would win hands down. As you said spellcasting is just way too ****ing powerful. I'd still find it hard to believe a necromaner can find a regular supply of wizards and the like.Hey, not our fault that most constructs are relegated to big stupid fighter archetypes while undead can either be bsf or be magicians. Doesn't matter. Undead wins.


Also, adding Half-golem to the mix is shoddy at best, considering it is pretty much a modified/transformed living creature not dissimilar to Liches, which you so strongly object to.

[Troacctid]

Undead are much faster and cheaper to create/control and don't require any feats, so I think they're the clear winner, provided you're willing to be evil. It's just the economical option.

[Zanos]

Has anyone even brought up the sheer costs of constructs? It takes like 70k to build an iron golem, for that much you could raise 2800 HD of stuff with animate dead. If hundred thousand gold golem couldn't beat a single zombie it would be pretty sad.

There are a lot of options for enhancing created undead too but really the only investment a wizard needs to make to use undead is a single spell known and a pinch of gold.

You can also awaken undead to get feats/skills and still control them, or use animate dread warrior or corpse/bone creatures for minions with class levels.

[RoboEmperor]

Has anyone even brought up the sheer costs of constructs? It takes like 70k to build an iron golem, for that much you could raise 2800 HD of stuff with animate dead. If hundred thousand gold golem couldn't beat a single zombie it would be pretty sad.

Artificer has cost reducers, especially if you exploit magical artisan. 1 * 0.75 (extraordinary artisan) * 0.75 (magical artisan applied to extraordinary artisan) * 0.75 (magical artisan applied to exceptional artisan) * 0.75 (magical artisan applied to legendary artisan) * 0.75 (magical artisan applied to craft construct) = 1 * 0.75 ^ 5 = 23.7% of the cost. So Iron Golem would cost 18,985gp (it's actually 80,000gp not 70,000gp).

But ofc, this is same level of RAW exploitation as PaOing a rock into a dragon corpse so... but it's there.

[Eldariel]

And you can get undead for free by spellstitching for Animate Dead or Animate Dread Warrior or whatever (which is even being done by Lore characters so it's clearly not against the intent). Also, you can spellstitch undead so they get spells, which are pretty rad.

[sleepyphoenixx]

But ofc, this is same level of RAW exploitation as PaOing a rock into a dragon corpse so... but it's there.

And it's still orders of magnitude more expensive than a good zombie, even with all that effort.
You can still animate a whole lot of undead for that money. And that's without counting crafting time - creating an Iron Golem (base price: 150,000gp) takes months. Animating a zombie takes a standard action.
Not to mention that most constructs are pretty wimpy for all the effort you put into them.

[RoboEmperor]

And it's still orders of magnitude more expensive than a good zombie, even with all that effort.
You can still animate a whole lot of undead for that money. And that's without counting crafting time - creating an Iron Golem (base price: 150,000gp) takes months. Animating a zombie takes a standard action.
Not to mention that most constructs are pretty wimpy for all the effort you put into them.

Your supposed to put all that effort into corpses though. Having all corpses are readily available and free is not a good model to use in a "fair" fight. If the only corpses around you are rats then constructs stomp no matter how much money you put into undead. Likewise if you have corpses with class levels then undead would stomp.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Your supposed to put all that effort into corpses though. Having all corpses are readily available and free is not a good model to use in a "fair" fight. If the only corpses around you are rats then constructs stomp no matter how much money you put into undead. Likewise if you have corpses with class levels then undead would stomp.

But corpses are readily available and free. That's (another) one of the big advantages of necromancy.
Maybe not the perfect corpse, but if your DM doesn't "supply" you with good corpses that generally just means you're not fighting anything that you'd need the good corpses for.

Anything living can be animated as an undead creature. If you're only fighting undead you get them by rebuke-commanding and Command Undead.
The only way you're not getting free corpses is if you're only fighting constructs, and when does that ever happen? Even then things in the world still die so that'd be a temporary setback at most.
Worst case you can go graverobbing which is still free.

Not factoring that in to rig the debate in favor of constructs sounds a lot more unfair to me.

[Afgncaap5]

What are we allowing as far as "created", out of curiosity? Like, say, Warforged aren't really made by the rules that PCs can access without DM fiat, but being "created" is still part of their story, and if we're in a "spellcasting is king" discussion then they've got access to pretty much anything.

And just for fun, how about we make the Warforged be the necromancer and the Lich be the construct maker, really mix it up a bit.

[thethird]

What is stopping the artificer from scribing a scroll of animate dead (first level due to death master) and have both undead and constructs?

[Quertus]

So, you need to have corpses (and controllable undead) available for a necromancer; you need to have materials (and spells?) available for constructs. Constructs usually have the higher piece tag, so I'd expect most people should just accept that everyone gets their materials, items, etc for the purposes of this discussion.

Do note, however, that, in my level 5&10 necromancer, I limited myself to a) core book undead, and b) the number of corpses one could afford and / or kill. Still wondering what an artificer could make on that timeframe.


Again, there are no creators in the battle so there is no caster undead allies except from like spellstitched undead, so no epic spells. I said lich v.s. artificer liches win specifically because of epic spells.
Umbral Blot is uncraftable so he's out too.

So, there's at least 3 questions being asked.

First, there's the question that the OP assumed that undead would obviously win - namely, what if it was a fight where they had to create all their troops? The OP believes that the necromancer would unquestionably win that fight. I'm actually not sure, so I posted what I think a fairly optimized but fairly simple necromancer might look like at level 5&10. I'd love to see someone who knows more than I do about constructs reply with a good artificer's army.

The second question is what I read the OP to be asking: what if we ignore creation times / costs, and, instead, just send "one of everything" at each other. Which side would come out on top? I believe that the answer, for optimized choice of combatants, is undead, because of both numbers, and the number of casters / beings with class levels. (although the Umbral Blot has me a bit concerned).

The third question, which you and several others are asking for reasons unknown to me, is what if we limit ourselves to just one of each creature that can be created?


What's a 40-headed colossal+ epic zombie dragon? o_O? Never heard of it before. Which base creature are you referring to?

Eh, don't care? Presumably whichever Dragon a previous poster was going on about, at epic great worm++, with the multiheaded template applied, turned into a zombie dragon. Or, depending on how "one of each" is translated, a zombie dragon like that for every color of Dragon.

Oh, btw, I haven't done the math, but I suspect that the golem will win if the Dragon is not equipped with a Belt of Battle.


AFAIK the only creatable undead in epic are zombie dragons because of Draconomicon, so if they can't take out the Mithral Golem, Adamantine Golem, Stone Colossus, Iron Colossus, and Flesh Colossus, it's game over. Keep in mind their CON is 0 so their 2613hp drops to 507.

Did you add 80 extra HD for the heads, plus at least 6 extra HP per HD for Corpse Crafter & Desecrate? Don't forget to make advanced HD versions of your golems, too.

Also, depending on what "one of each" means, that's lots of colors of zombie dragons to face off against those golems.

Lastly, we're not on the same page about what the OP was asking. I believe all undead are in play, not just those what can be created.


I can't comment on everything else you said because, you know, I'm not an undead expert so I can't check your work, but if you're dominating undead then I will point you toward the Rod of Construct Control! Which is you know, NI constructs.

Touché.

Feel free to mirror my 10th level necromancer, detailing which book golems he controlled after obtaining the WBL for said rod, limiting yourself to however many it takes to give him the XP to reach 10th level.

In this specific war, contrary to the OP, my money's on the constructs.

Do note, however, that, after my initial post regarding that item, I've ignored it, as I believe that it gives team undead too much of an advantage.


In any case the Artificer would probably have a 12hd hydra effigy buffed with magic items.

At what level? I haven't detailed the necromancer past 10th - and, although I've used something similar in a game, I don't think that it's a published stat block, so, apples to apples, I'd need to redo a necromancer who is more "creative" than just picking things out of the book to mirror that choice.


Half-Golems can be applied to anything and everything, and they retain their spellcasting too so...

Yeah, were I posing for team constructs, that's certainly something that I would have added. But the horrible hit to mental stats is why I would have made... something different. Something hideously powerful, actually.

Still, not taking a hit to Wisdom, IIRC, they could make terrifying Tainted Sorcerers. :smalleek:


Undead are much faster and cheaper to create/control and don't require any feats, so I think they're the clear winner, provided you're willing to be evil. It's just the economical option.

That's what the OP believed. I posted a simple necromancer as a test - I'm hoping I'll get a simple artificer for comparison.


Artificer has cost reducers, especially if you exploit magical artisan. 1 * 0.75 (extraordinary artisan) * 0.75 (magical artisan applied to extraordinary artisan) * 0.75 (magical artisan applied to exceptional artisan) * 0.75 (magical artisan applied to legendary artisan) * 0.75 (magical artisan applied to craft construct) = 1 * 0.75 ^ 5 = 23.7% of the cost. So Iron Golem would cost 18,985gp (it's actually 80,000gp not 70,000gp).

But ofc, this is same level of RAW exploitation as PaOing a rock into a dragon corpse so... but it's there.

Personally, I've got no issue with cost reducers (assuming no-one claims that this doesn't work by RAW?), but I balk at the PaO. Still, by RAW, corpses should be available for sale in every sufficiently large settlement - even if only in the pre-dead "slave" state.

I detailed a simple necromancer who basically killed all his own corpses. Really, if their army couldn't be infinite, I'd say that corpses should just be freely assumed.

Still, this only matters for addressing my own personal question, not the one poised by the OP.

[Zanos]

Your supposed to put all that effort into corpses though. Having all corpses are readily available and free is not a good model to use in a "fair" fight. If the only corpses around you are rats then constructs stomp no matter how much money you put into undead. Likewise if you have corpses with class levels then undead would stomp.
In my experience, corpses are not something adventurers struggle with ready access to.


What is stopping the artificer from scribing a scroll of animate dead (first level due to death master) and have both undead and constructs?
Nothing, but it's not the premise of the topic.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Constructs win because undead are gross. Q e d.

[Afgncaap5]

What is stopping the artificer from scribing a scroll of animate dead (first level due to death master) and have both undead and constructs?

Really nothing. However, I think the spirit of the conversation is less about which leader of the armies would be able to outperform the other and more about which would win in a fair fight.

Unfortunately, there's not much that can be done to really quantify comparable encounters. Cost to create isn't a bad one, but then it's kinda complicated. Let's start on the low end of the scale...

There's also a curious issue of some constructs requiring specialized tools, but a lot of those tools can be reused for multiple constructs, where most undead just have a single up front cost before they're done.

So, taking a look at some relatively cheap options...

Homunculus: 50 gp to make, but also a 500 gp laboratory-equivalent of stuff

Skeletons or Zombies: 25 gp per hit die to make via Animate Dead

2 human skeletons (50 gp) vs 1 Homunculus (50 gp):
Skeletons add +1 to claw attacks and deal 1d4+1 damage, meaning they hit the 14 AC Homunculus 40% of the time and deal an average of 3.5 damage per hit. If we round up and assume that the skeletons hit 50% of the time (maybe they get flanking bonuses) then the Homunculus will survive until roughly the third hit.

The Homunculus' poison attack, meanwhile, won't hurt any undead. Its Bite attack (if I understand DRs correctly) counts as any of the three basic damage types, so will overcome the Skeleton DR (unless I'm supposed to divide it by three or something?) It gets to add +2 to its bite attack, and overcomes a Skeleton's AC of 15 40% of the time. The bite deals 1.5 points of damage on average, so it'll take the Homunculus roughly 4 hits to tear through a given skeleton's 6 hit points.

Perhaps unsurprisingly, the tiny single monster who's meant to sneak up on PCs and inconvenience them with poison is not a good match against two monsters who are designed to be combat fodder for PCs. It also assumes the Homunculus won't, like... fly over their heads and wait for chances to attack when it has the better advantage, which could sway things. However, if we switch to the other basic Animate Dead option for 2 HD, we get the Kobold Zombie. It has the same attack bonus as the Skeleton so hits 40% of the time (again, if the Homunculus isn't flying). Its damage is more like the Homunculus' dealing only 1.5 points on average. The Homunculus stands a better chance of hitting it this time, landing blows 50% of the time. Poison still won't work, but with the better attack average, better maneuverability, and hitpoints only 4 higher than the Homunculus, I actually think that the Homunculus has the advantage here, and that's without the flying boost (especially when we remember that zombies are limited to one action unless they're just charging all the time, which would lower its AC even more.)

So, in this price bracket, a single homunculus is a better deal than a single zombie. If we add the cost of a full alchemist's lab (doesn't seem fair to me since you could make more than one construct per lab just like a wizard can raise more than one zombie per spell book, but whatever) then we get to add 10 more zombies and the odds clearly shift in the favor of the zombies because we're assuming the lab is... I dunno, destroyed after the first construct or whatever.

Now, this is a construct that's not really meant for fighting. A cheap Arbalester, for instance, might actually have a decent shot (ha!) at clearing a lot of zombies, and at range no less.


That was exhausting, and it's just a cheap comparison. Perhaps a better comparison would be the CR of each creature? Arbalester vs. 2 Kobold Zombies, both parties at CR 1. Seems a fair gauge of "power level" even without going into how much any given creature does or doesn't cost.

[Gullintanni]

Lastly, we're not on the same page about what the OP was asking. I believe all undead are in play, not just those what can be created.


I tend to agree. The OP mentioned a death battle in the tradition of the Ultimate Showdown, with no stipulation on which undead or constructs are selected; except to say that Undead are easier to create than Constructs, and so they would have an edge if creation is a factor. Masters and creators aside, Undead vs. Constructs is the challenge.

The most dangerous Construct on the field is either the Iron Colossus or the Umbral Blot, and the most dangerous Undead is the Atropal. The Atropal, to the best of my knowledge, has no attacks that can harm the other two; however, the Atropal can fly at 240 feet with perfect maneuverability and has telepathy out to 1000 feet. The Colossus can not reach the Atropal unless it wants to be reached. The Umbral Blot moves at flies with a move speed of 90 feet. It can not catch the Atropal.

It would appear to be a stalemate...but Diplomacy cheese rears its ugly head. Atropals have a Diplomacy score of 97 :smalleek:. If the creature so much as attempts to influence the Blackball, it will automatically convert the construct to a fanatical devotee. The same goes for the Iron Colossus.

[Quertus]

@Afgncaap5

Your cost comparison sounds like it would be best suited for my off-topic question of necromancer vs artificer.

So, how many of those could a what level artificer afford to make (no need to assume that the lab self-destructs) over what period of time? If he can make them by 5th, we can pit them against my pile of 5th level undead.

Your comparison by CR sounds like a fourth, arguably even further off-topic point of comparison. I think that undead get the shaft here?

EDIT: and did I get the cost of Animate Dead wrong? Or did it change between 3.0 and 3.5?

[Quertus]

I tend to agree. The OP mentioned a death battle in the tradition of the Ultimate Showdown, with no stipulation on which undead or constructs are selected; except to say that Undead are easier to create than Constructs, and so they would have an edge if creation is a factor. Masters and creators aside, Undead vs. Constructs is the challenge.

It's always nice when someone agrees with my unusual take on things. :smallbiggrin:


The most dangerous Construct on the field is either the Iron Colossus or the Umbral Blot,

Guess I really need to read up on the Colossus, then.


and the most dangerous Undead is the Atropal.

Or the NI level lich, vampire, ghost, corpse creature, bone creature, etc etc?


The Umbral Blot moves at flies with a move speed of 90 feet. It can not catch the Atropal.

The UB I read has teleport and plane shift capabilities. Utterly terrifying.


It would appear to be a stalemate...but Diplomacy cheese rears its ugly head. Atropals have a Diplomacy score of 97 :smalleek:. If the creature so much as attempts to influence the Blackball, it will automatically convert the construct to a fanatical devotee. The same goes for the Iron Colossus.

What?! Can you actually diplomacy constructs?

[RoboEmperor]

But corpses are readily available and free. That's (another) one of the big advantages of necromancy.
Maybe not the perfect corpse, but if your DM doesn't "supply" you with good corpses that generally just means you're not fighting anything that you'd need the good corpses for.

Anything living can be animated as an undead creature. If you're only fighting undead you get them by rebuke-commanding and Command Undead.
The only way you're not getting free corpses is if you're only fighting constructs, and when does that ever happen? Even then things in the world still die so that'd be a temporary setback at most.
Worst case you can go graverobbing which is still free.

Not factoring that in to rig the debate in favor of constructs sounds a lot more unfair to me.


In my experience, corpses are not something adventurers struggle with ready access to.

That's my original argument. If we're only using corpses that we encounter during our normal adventuring lives, Constructs will beat Undead. You ain't finding multiheaded great wyrm corpses in your normal adventurer's life so you're not raising a zombie great wyrm at level 10 (or earlier with +CL boosts). Correct me if I'm wrong but you need to be an epic cleric to rebuke level 17+ bone/corpse wizards and rebuke is the only way to truly control undead from create undead instead of descending to charm person level of control.

Artificer can bring out a 8hd hydra effigy at level 6.


Do note, however, that, in my level 5&10 necromancer, I limited myself to a) core book undead, and b) the number of corpses one could afford and / or kill. Still wondering what an artificer could make on that timeframe.

Level 5 is impossible because the earliest Craft Construct can be acquired is level 6. If we're using homunculi, there's nothing to discuss, Artificers lose because homunculi are crap soldiers.

Level 10 is 49,000gp. 12hd hydra effigies cost 12,000gp and 960xp without reducers, 9,000gp and 720xp with reducers, 2,848gp 228xp with RAW abuse. Each Hydra takes 24 days to craft (18 with reducers), has DR 7/Adamantine, 104 hp, and 12 attacks a round.

That's 5 hydras with reducers and 17 hydras with RAW abuse.

As others mentioned, constructs lack variety so this is probably the strongest construct setup for a 10th level artificer. The only way to make it better is to equip them with magic items which I think defeats the purpose of the thread.


I tend to agree. The OP mentioned a death battle in the tradition of the Ultimate Showdown, with no stipulation on which undead or constructs are selected; except to say that Undead are easier to create than Constructs, and so they would have an edge if creation is a factor. Masters and creators aside, Undead vs. Constructs is the challenge.

How can an Atropal or an Umbral Blot have a master when they cannot be created? And if they don't have a master, why are they there in the first place? I still think OP meant a created undead and construct army.


What?! Can you actually diplomacy constructs?

Don't see why not, as long as they have an INT score above 2? But no fanatic since they are mind-affecting immune.

[Gullintanni]

That's my original argument. If we're only using corpses that we encounter during our normal adventuring lives, Constructs will beat Undead. You ain't finding or multiheaded great wyrms in your normal adventurer's life so you're not raising a zombie great wyrm at level 10 (or earlier with +CL boosts). Correct me if I'm wrong but you need to be an epic cleric to rebuke level 17+ bone/corpse wizards and rebuke is the only way to truly control undead from create undead instead of descending to charm person level of control.

Artificer can bring out a 8hd hydra effigy at level 6.



...which is all somewhat irrelevant given that the thread specifically is about Undead vs. Constructs independent of Necromancers and Artificers?

:smallconfused:

For the purposes of the Ultimate Showdown, it's also a point in favour of the Undead that a Demilich must be a 21st level Sorcerer, Wizard or Cleric by default... In which case, one side has a full, epic level caster with the intelligence score to go along with it.


How can an Atropal or an Umbral Blot have a master when they cannot be created? And if they don't have a master, why are they there in the first place? I still think OP meant a created undead and construct army.

I think you're wrong. The OP spells out the following:


Am pretty sure undead win this hands down.
They're easier to create; meaning cheaper, faster, and less resource intensive.
Can a Construct master ever really keep up with a necromancer let alone even surpass them? Doubtful.

So I ask instead, which wins out if their masters/creators are removed from the equation?
In an all out Ultimate Battle of Ultimate Destiny style fight where one of each kind stand on opposite sides of a line in the sand which army wins?

Emphasis added. The OP doesn't care about masters or creators or their abilities. The OP is asking word for word for us to debate the outcome of a battle given that the army of constructs and undead contains one of each kind.

You're welcome to your assumptions; I will be arguing under the assumption that one of each kind means one of every undead and one of every construct, no further qualifications. :smallamused:

[RoboEmperor]

Emphasis added. The OP doesn't care about masters or creators or their abilities. The OP is asking word for word for us to debate the outcome of a battle given that the army of constructs and undead contains one of each kind.

I can see how you can interpret it that way, but ultimately it doesn't matter. Both cases NI spellcasting undead beats constructs and you really only need one with epic spellcasting.

[Gullintanni]

I can see how you can interpret it that way, but ultimately it doesn't matter. Both cases NI spellcasting undead beats constructs.

Yeah - OTOH I think it's pretty unimaginable that undead could win given a scenario where only created undead are allowed to participate; assuming no cheese to add spellcasting to a non-natively casting, created undead.

[Quertus]

Correct me if I'm wrong but you need to be an epic cleric to rebuke level 17+ bone/corpse wizards and rebuke is the only way to truly control undead from create undead instead of descending to charm person level of control.

Well, there are items (etc) to reduce turn resistance / boost cleric level - thus how my simple sample necromancer spent his WBL. But, yes, the basics of that are correct.


Artificer can bring out a 8hd hydra effigy at level 6.

Well dang. Someone else posted the 5/10/15/20 breakdown - I didn't intentionally gimp team constructs.


Level 5 is impossible because the earliest Craft Construct can be acquired is level 6. If we're using homunculi, there's nothing to discuss, Artificers lose because homunculi are crap soldiers.

So, early game goes to team undead, unless someone cares to contest this? I'm actually a little surprised, tbh. I figured cheap constructs with DR might trash the early undead.


Level 10 is 49,000gp. 12hd hydra effigies cost 12,000gp and 960xp without reducers, 9,000gp and 720xp with reducers, 2,848gp 228xp with RAW abuse. Each Hydra takes 24 days to craft (18 with reducers), has DR 7/Adamantine, 104 hp, and 12 attacks a round.

That's 5 hydras with reducers and 17 hydras with RAW abuse.

Is this RAW abuse something that any reasonable person could possibly claim isn't actually RAW? If not, that's 17 hydras (you've got the feats for all that by level 10?).

DR 7 means that the... checking... 720 skeletons (or 1440 if I got the math wrong) are useless. :smallfrown:

444 ogre skeletons... oh, apologies, I misremembered, it's Ettin skeletons and ogre zombies that are published stat blocks (at least in 3.5). Well, as your hydras took 24*17=some really big number, I hope you won't call moving goalposts on me if I fix my ogres to be the published zombies, still being finished in just over 8 weeks of downtime IIRC, way before the hydras.

Sigh. Another error on my part - quarterstaves aren't two-handed. :smallannoyed: So they'll do the same damage as with a slam. Whatever. 1d8+6, vs DR 7.

Ogres are large, hydras are huge. If the hydras fight in as close as they can get to a square, that's only just slightly more than 3 OZ per 2 HE on the front lines. Or roughly 12*17 HE attacks per 17*3/2 OZ attacks -> 8 HE attacks per OZ attack (!). Neither side has a reach advantage, so no real worries about AoOs.

I don't want to get the math wrong, so if you'd be so kind as to supply the HE attack bonus, damage, and AC, I'll calculate how that fight would go.

I didn't forget about the lich, btw - but, with your homogenized lineup, there's no value in him invisibly giving orders, and, with how fast bloody hydras (!) murder the ogres, his planned Haste buff is equally worthless.


As others mentioned, constructs lack variety so this is probably the strongest construct setup for a 10th level artificer. The only way to make it better is to equip them with magic items which I think defeats the purpose of the thread.

Eh, I'm not sure about that. Well, rather, for my specific "WWND vs WWAD" question, if they'd spend their WBL equipping their minions, that's cool by me.

Honestly, a better necromancer would have probably swung for some great clubs for the ogre zombies...

[Quertus]

...which is all somewhat irrelevant given that the thread specifically is about Undead vs. Constructs independent of Necromancers and Artificers?

:smallconfused:

This is partially my fault. While we both agree on what the OP meant, no-one else did. Further,



Yeah - OTOH I think it's pretty unimaginable that undead could win given a scenario where only created undead are allowed to participate; assuming no cheese to add spellcasting to a non-natively casting, created undead.

I find that I did not agree with the OP 's assumption that undead would obviously win in necromancer vs artificer, so I found that particular off-topic discussion much more interesting than the off-topic discussion everyone else was having.



NI spellcasting undead beats constructs and you really only need one with epic spellcasting.

Or, as you point out, than the on-topic discussion.

[RoboEmperor]

Is this RAW abuse something that any reasonable person could possibly claim isn't actually RAW? If not, that's 17 hydras (you've got the feats for all that by level 10?).

The RAW is rock solid. You apply Magical Artisan to an item creation feat and every time you use that feat you apply Magical Artisan's reduction. So apply it to Craft Construct and constructs are 25% cheaper.

Extraordinary, Legendary, and Exceptional Artisan are all Item Creation feats, and you "use" them whenever you craft anything, so you apply Magical Artisan to each one of these three item creation feats and you are now using Magical Artisan 4 times everytime you craft a construct.

Unlike most abuses this RAW exploit is unquestionable and people hating this must resort to RAI.

Good Question about the feat count. If we're optimizing for 10th level power instead of Craft Construct a.s.a.p...
1: Scribe Scroll (bonus).
Flaw1: Extraordinary Artisan
Flaw2: Magical Artisan->Extraordinary Artisan
3: Legendary Artisan
4: Exceptional Artisan
6: Magical Artisan->Legendary Artisan
8: Craft Construct
9: Magical Artisan->Exceptional Artisan

So we are short one Magical Artisan. 3,797gp per Hydra. 12 Hydras total




I don't want to get the math wrong, so if you'd be so kind as to supply the HE attack bonus, damage, and AC, I'll calculate how that fight would go.

Twelve-Headed Hydra
Huge Construct
12d10+40 (106 hp)
Initiative:+0
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), swim 20 ft.
Armor Class: 23 (-2 size, +13 natural, +2 natural for being made of metal), touch 9, flat-footed 23
Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+23
Attack: 12 bites +16 melee (2d8+8)
Full Attack: 12 bites +16 melee (2d8+8)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./10 ft.
Special Qualities: DR 7/Adamantine
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +4, Will +4
Abilities: Str 27, Dex 10, Con 0, Int 0, Wis 11, Cha 1
Skills: Listen +9, Spot +10, Swim +14
Feats: Improved Natural Attack (bite), Weapon Focus (bite)
Challenge Rating: 12


So, early game goes to team undead, unless someone cares to contest this? I'm actually a little surprised, tbh. I figured cheap constructs with DR might trash the early undead.

Homunculi don't have DR, and constructs are expensive as **** so I think it's a no contest that undead would beat constructs early levels.

If we're talking level 6 then the 8headed hydra effigy has DR 3/adamantine, and you can craft TWO with the above build (except craft construct at 6).

Most constructs, even the weak sauce ones, have ludicrously high CL requirement to craft for some reason. I know because I've organized all of the constructs in MMI-V according to CL to create, which is why Effigies are literally the only constructs viable low levels.

[Quertus]

12 Hydras total

Twelve-Headed Hydra
Huge Construct
12d10+40 (106 hp)
Initiative:+0
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), swim 20 ft.
Armor Class: 23 (-2 size, +13 natural, +2 natural for being made of metal), touch 9, flat-footed 23
Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+23
Attack: 12 bites +16 melee (2d8+8)
Full Attack: 12 bites +16 melee (2d8+8)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./10 ft.
Special Qualities: DR 7/Adamantine
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +4, Will +4
Abilities: Str 27, Dex 10, Con 0, Int 0, Wis 11, Cha 1
Skills: Listen +9, Spot +10, Swim +14
Feats: Improved Natural Attack (bite), Weapon Focus (bite)
Challenge Rating: 12

Ok, to simplify, 8 HE attacks per 1 OZ attack. 12*106=1272 vs 444*(55+48)=45733 HP.

The HE hits on a, well, on a -1, but... hits on a 2 for 95% expected damage of 2d8+8(-0, because bite penetrates DR/s)=17 ->16.15.

The OZ with +9 attack hits on a 14, for 35% expected damage of 1d8+6(-7)=[0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7]=3.5->1.225.

So, 16.15*8=129.2. So the HEs dish out over 100x the damage per round that the OZs do. :smalleek:

The ogres don't have HP of that magnitude (having slightly less than 40x the HP of the hydras), and lose.

Hmmm... Maybe tomorrow I'll calculate if I had funds left over to make them match the book stats of wielding great clubs, and see if that makes enough of a difference.

But, for the moment, the Hydra Effigies have made an impressive showing for team constructs.

[unseenmage]

Oh wow.So much more interest than I'd guessed! Thanks for all the fascinating conversations.

On to some clarifications. Originally yes, I'd intended the discussion to be about one of every concievable Construct vs one of every conceivable Undead, and yeah that included one of every zombie/effigy etc.
Both created and commanded were intended as any Undead could be commanded by a cleric as could any Construct thanks to a) Rod of Construct Control and b) the Warforged domain from Eberron.
Theoretically a NI level cleric could command them all and have them fight for the lolz.
And yeah, having their masters and/or creators not be present was also the intention.

However, as has been pointed out epic is a whole nother kind of fight as is caster vs caster. (On that note one could kinda make and control a Lich via mind control and turning, right?)

So some new ground rules would appear to be in order. Please let me know what you think.

- A battlefield is still the visual but for convenience we'll have our teams duke it out in skirmishes.
- Skirmishes are paired by either the level the creator could have created/commanded the minion OR by groups of equivalent CRs.
This way those who prefer to evaluate based on the masters builds and those who prefer to evaluate based on CR can both take part.
Both sides of a given skirmish must use the same method; CR vs CR and creator ECL vs creator ECL. Do mind WBL for the creator vs creator bots please.

- No epic because epic is nuts.
- No spellcasting. SLA are okay though.
- Similarly, no equipment save what is literally built into the creature (brass golem's weapon) or would be required to defeat the creature (lich's phylactery, and yeah we'll be mean and make the lich carry and protect the thing).
Equipment must also fit into the WBL of the creator/controller of the combatant.

- A given template can only be represented once per skirmish. Sadly this inhibits the visual of hordes of zombies but it's about the only fair way I see to do the thing.

- Additionally no more than one template per combatant. So no half fey, half dragon, zombies.

- All 3.5 and 3.0 allowed with normal 3.5 updates applied. Dragon and Dungeon and web content allowed.
Base creatures can be purchased via the slavery rules in Lords of Madness.

- No infinities please as they obviate any contest even occurring.

- While equipment isn't allowed on the combatants the nature of the contest means that equipment could still BE a combatant. Intelligent Magic Items count as Constructs and special materials and alchemical items can be animated by Animate Objects.

That's all I can think of for now. Apologies for not responding in a more direct fashion to many of you, am at work and away from books.

Thank you all for your responses and engaging discussions. :smallbiggrin:

[RoboEmperor]

Undead will win because of them disintegrate dragons. Note that this is not the disintegrate spell. It is simply, SAVE OR DIE.


Breath Weapon (Su): A pyroclastic dragon has two types of breath weapon, a cone of superheated ash accompanied by crushing waves of sonic force (dealing half fire damage and half sonic damage) or a disintegrating line. Creatures within the area of the line must succeed on a Fortitude save or crumble to ash. (Creatures that successfully save do not take any damage.)

Constructs are numerous because of Effigies and Elder Eidolons, but ultimately all constructs are just physical beatsticks. A flying zombie dragon spewing a LINE disintegrate... yeah nothing beats that. Nothing. Nada. Zilch.

Zombie Dragons are half CR + 1 so a Zombie Pyroclastic Great Wyrm is still pre-epic.

A Zombie Pyrocalstic Great Wyrm's disintegrate DC 10 + 0.5*hd + ChaMod = 10 + 20 + 2 = 32. Not even a Blackstone Gigant has more than a 5% chance of surviving that. And there's Wyrm, Ancient, Very Old, Old, Mature Adult, Adult, Young Adult, Juvenile, Young, Very Young, and Wyrmling.

And Undead completely outnumber the constructs too,

So...
1. fight starts
2. Constructs are too busy killing every single creature in the game x number of undead templates.
3. Pyroclastic Dragon Zombies one shot chunks after chunks of constructs.
4. fight ends

This is a classic case of fighter v.s. Wizard. No matter how much damage an ubercharger does in a round, the wizard's toolbox versatility wins in the end, by a mile, or 10 miles, or a million miles, or by lightyears.

[unseenmage]

Undead will win because of them disintegrate dragons. Note that this is not the disintegrate spell. It is simply, SAVE OR DIE.



Constructs are numerous because of Effigies and Elder Eidolons, but ultimately all constructs are just physical beatsticks. A flying zombie dragon spewing a LINE disintegrate... yeah nothing beats that. Nothing. Nada. Zilch.

Zombie Dragons are half CR + 1 so a Zombie Pyroclastic Great Wyrm is still pre-epic.

A Zombie Pyrocalstic Great Wyrm's disintegrate DC 10 + 0.5*hd + ChaMod = 10 + 20 + 2 = 32. Not even a Blackstone Gigant has more than a 5% chance of surviving that. And there's Wyrm, Ancient, Very Old, Old, Mature Adult, Adult, Young Adult, Juvenile, Young, Very Young, and Wyrmling.

And Undead completely outnumber the constructs too,

So...
1. fight starts
2. Constructs are too busy killing every single creature in the game x number of undead templates.
3. Pyroclastic Dragon Zombies one shot chunks after chunks of constructs.
4. fight ends

This is a classic case of fighter v.s. Wizard. No matter how much damage an ubercharger does in a round, the wizard's toolbox versatility wins in the end, by a mile, or 10 miles, or a million miles, or by lightyears.

If it's not the Disintegrate spell then if it doesnt say it explicitly affects objects it wont effect Constructs or Undead since Constructs and Undead are immune to Fort saves unless ghe effect also affects objects.

[Troacctid]

The RAW is rock solid. You apply Magical Artisan to an item creation feat and every time you use that feat you apply Magical Artisan's reduction. So apply it to Craft Construct and constructs are 25% cheaper.

Extraordinary, Legendary, and Exceptional Artisan are all Item Creation feats, and you "use" them whenever you craft anything, so you apply Magical Artisan to each one of these three item creation feats and you are now using Magical Artisan 4 times everytime you craft a construct.

Unlike most abuses this RAW exploit is unquestionable and people hating this must resort to RAI.
Uh, definitely not. Magical Artisan says you pay 75% of the normal cost. Say you're crafting an item with a normal cost of 1000 gp. Magical Artisan reduces that to 750. Then you apply Magical Artisan again, reducing it to 75% of the normal cost. Normal cost is, again, 1000 gp, so...still 750. Then you apply it a third time...well, normal cost still hasn't changed, so...750 gp. No stacking.

[RoboEmperor]

Uh, definitely not. Magical Artisan says you pay 75% of the normal cost. Say you're crafting an item with a normal cost of 1000 gp. Magical Artisan reduces that to 750. Then you apply Magical Artisan again, reducing it to 75% of the normal cost. Normal cost is, again, 1000 gp, so...still 750. Then you apply it a third time...well, normal cost still hasn't changed, so...750 gp. No stacking.

Interesting, I've never seen this argument before. Still, if we're using exact language.


Magical Artisan: "75% of Normal Cost"
Extraordinary Artisan: "Reduce Base Price by 25%".

So for a 1,000gp construct

Magical Artisan
Pay only 25% of the normal cast of an item created by Craft Construct
1,000gp * 0.75 = 750gp

Extraordinary Artisan
The normal cost of an item created by Extraordinary Artisan is the normal cost created by Craft Construct with the base price reduced by 25%
1,000gp - 0.25*1,000gp = 750gp

Magical Artisan->Extraordinary Artisan
Pay only 75% of the normal cost of an item created by Extraordinary Artisan which is the base price of the created item by craft construct minus 25% of its base price
which is (1,000gp - 0.25*1,000gp) * 0.75 = 562.5gp
*This Magical Artisan only interacts with Extraordinary Artisan. It does not interact with Craft Construct, so the normal cost here is the cost after Extraordinary Artisan's reduction

Magical Artisan->Craft Construct + Magical Artisan->Extraordinary Artisan
Pay only 75% of the normal cost of an item created by Extraordinary Artisan which is the base price of the created item by craft construct minus 25% of its base price which is 75% of the normal cost of the construct with the base price reduced by 25%

MAN That's a mess. lets see if we can understand that.
Pay only 75% of the normal cost of an item created by Extraordinary Artisan
An item created by Extraordinary Artisan is the base price of the created item by craft construct minus 25% of its base price
Pay only 75% of the normal cost of the construct.

If Base Price = Normal Cost, as in they're synonyms instead of separate words...
75% of (75% of the reduced base price)
((1,000gp - 0.25 * 1,000gp) * 0.75) * 0.75 = 421.875gp

Now if we add Legendary Artisan... Legendary Artisan does not interact with Extraordinary Artisan. But wait, Magical Artisan reduces both XP and Gold, but Legendary Artisan does not reduce gold so with Extraordinary Artisan's Magical Artisan and Legedary Artisan's Magical Artisan, we'll end up with two gp totals... and what if you only have magical artisan applied to only legendary artisan but not extraordinary artisan?

You know what, I give up. My head hurts. I don't use this exploit so I shouldn't spend so much brain power on its validity. There's no question Magical Artisan and Extraordinary Artisan stack with each other so... 56.25% of base price if you have both feats. If we go by 3.0's language then it's 50% because it's "multiply the base price by 0.75" and "subtract 25% of the base price" which results in 50% of the base price.

That means... 7 Hydra Effigies or 8 hydra effigies with 3.0's language.


If it's not the Disintegrate spell then if it doesnt say it explicitly affects objects it wont effect Constructs or Undead since Constructs and Undead are immune to Fort saves unless ghe effect also affects objects.

True dat. If we're gonna figure this out, we need a master Undead player to come in and bring in his 5 baddest undead, and then a master Construct player to bring in his 5 baddest constructs, and go from there.

[RoboEmperor]

Ok, correct me if I'm wrong but...

Pre-Epic the strongest nontemplate Constructs are...

1. Shadesteel Golem (just a beatstick)
2. Runic Guardian (A free 7th level spell)
3. Blackstone Gigant (abilities are worthless against undead so it's just a beatstick)
4. Demonflesh Golem (just a beatstick)
5. Hellfire Golem (just a beatstick/blaster)
6. Prismatic Golem (??? High CR but I find it kinda lackluster)

Strongest template construct is...
Effigy/Elder Eidolon of some Dragon that lets you hit exactly CR20?

So... what are the strongest undead?

[Eldariel]

Yeah - OTOH I think it's pretty unimaginable that undead could win given a scenario where only created undead are allowed to participate; assuming no cheese to add spellcasting to a non-natively casting, created undead.

Spellstitching as written is, I don't think, much of cheese and it's right there in Complete Arcane. Goes up to 6th level spells for 19+ Wis Undead.

[Quertus]

A given template can only be represented once per skirmish. Sadly this inhibits the visual of hordes of zombies but it's about the only fair way I see to do the thing.

Uugh. Teams of individuals rather than masses are so much harder to stat out and run the numbers for. :smallfrown: :smalltongue:

So, why do you view consistent replication of a single type as unfair?

/w(h)ine. On to the cheese.

CR vs CR, the Zombie Pyroclastic Dragon is pretty nuts. Zombie Great Wyrm Pyroclastic Dragon is CR 12, and can probably solo anything except Golems with their immunity to everything supernatural. Putting it on a mixed team to reach EL 16-20, my bet is on undead. Similar for lower CR Zombie Pyroclastic Dragons in lower EL teams.

So, for EL 5/10/15/20... Hmmm...

EL 5
CR 3 Zombie Wyrmling Pyroclastic Dragon & CR 3 Corpse übercharger? Maybe not optimal, but are there any construct teams that can stand up to that level of beatstick, let alone thinking flying ranged maneuverability, at EL 5?

EL 10
Golems come online now, so Dragon breath weapons really won't cut it by themselves. However, Spell Stitched for illusions is a thing, so we can start forcing team construct to have a mind or lose - nope, cannot create illusions that way. (OK, arguably, the disintegrating breath weapon already did that, by allowing the undead to shape the battlefield). So, let's stick with what works: CR 7 Zombie Young Adult / Adult Pyroclastic Dragon, CR 7 Corpse übercharger, CR 4 12-headed Hydra Zombie, CR 6 12-headed Hydra Skeleton.

EL 15
I'm actually at a loss to think of anything undead - other than the übercharger - who could deal with the CR 13 3.0 Iron Golem, with its magic immunity and DR 50/+3. I'm more of a "hordes of Undead" kinda necromancer.

Maybe I'll look into the ECL "controlled" teams later. Although, apparently, at ECL 5, team undress just wins by default.


Ok, correct me if I'm wrong but...

Pre-Epic the strongest nontemplate Constructs are...

1. Shadesteel Golem (just a beatstick)
2. Runic Guardian (A free 7th level spell)
3. Blackstone Gigant (abilities are worthless against undead so it's just a beatstick)
4. Demonflesh Golem (just a beatstick)
5. Hellfire Golem (just a beatstick/blaster)
6. Prismatic Golem (??? High CR but I find it kinda lackluster)

Strongest template construct is...
Effigy/Elder Eidolon of some Dragon that lets you hit exactly CR20?

So... what are the strongest undead?

The CR 12 Zombie Great Wyrm Pyroclastic Dragon isn't horrible. But, honestly, I'm not the one to ask, as a) I'm more of a "Hordes of Undead" kind of necromancer; b) the gazillion class level undead that I'd normally answer with (lich, vampire, corpse, bone, etc) are being reduced to beat sticks for this challenge.

[unseenmage]

...

CR vs CR, the Zombie Pyroclastic Dragon is pretty nuts. Zombie Great Wyrm Pyroclastic Dragon is CR 12, and can probably solo anything except Golems with their immunity to everything supernatural. ...

Was my understanding that Magic Immunity was just souped up SR. Meaning Su effects should work just fine so long as they aren't affected by CR.



...
... (OK, arguably, the disintegrating breath weapon already did that, by allowing the undead to shape the battlefield).
...

As mentioned earlier am pretty sure that Disintegraging breath weapon only affects creatures. If so it wont shape the battlefield.



EL 15
I'm actually at a loss to think of anything undead - other than the übercharger - who could deal with the CR 13 3.0 Iron Golem, with its magic immunity and DR 50/+3. I'm more of a "hordes of Undead" kinda necromancer.
...

Why reference the 3.0 golem? Am pretty sure I mentioned 3.5 updates being a thing. I only mentioned 3.0 stuff so that unupdated critters could be fielded if they received the 3.5 treatment. Apologies if I didn't make that clear.



The CR 12 Zombie Great Wyrm Pyroclastic Dragon isn't horrible. But, honestly, I'm not the one to ask, as a) I'm more of a "Hordes of Undead" kind of necromancer; b) the gazillion class level undead that I'd normally answer with (lich, vampire, corpse, bone, etc) are being reduced to beat sticks for this challenge.
I feel you. I prefer my intelligent, free willed, class level gaining, 3rd party templated, prices by CR Constructs myself.

[Quertus]

As mentioned earlier am pretty sure that Disintegraging breath weapon only affects creatures. If so it wont shape the battlefield.

Huh. It does specify "creatures". Reading comprehension is not my strong suit.


Was my understanding that Magic Immunity was just souped up SR. Meaning Su effects should work just fine so long as they aren't affected by CR.

Why reference the 3.0 golem? Am pretty sure I mentioned 3.5 updates being a thing. I only mentioned 3.0 stuff so that unupdated critters could be fielded if they received the 3.5 treatment. Apologies if I didn't make that clear.

These are related. The 3.0 golem Magic Immunity reads "immune to all spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural effects". Which, while golems may have gotten an explicit update, I don't believe that the (actually much more terrifying) half-golems did.

So, if I may suggest the absolute winningest entry,

CR 5
Half Iron Golem Incarnate Construct Huge Animated Object.

Yes, this giant statute of the caster was brought to life, then had construct limbs grafted on until it lost its sentience and became a construct again. With true magic immunity, DR 25/+2, +17 NAC, and a 32 strength, it's quite the terror at CR 5. Sure, there may be animals or things with class levels that would have made for a more powerful construct, but who doesn't want to send a giant proxy of themselves into battle, to strike fear into the hearts of their enemies at the mere sight of their image?


I feel you. I prefer my intelligent, free willed, class level gaining, 3rd party templated, prices by CR Constructs myself.

Pathfinder?

[unseenmage]

...

Yes, this giant statute of the caster was brought to life, then had construct limbs grafted on until it lost its sentience and became a construct again. With true magic immunity, DR 25/+2, +17 NAC, and a 32 strength, it's quite the terror at CR 5. Sure, there may be animals or things with class levels that would have made for a more powerful construct, but who doesn't want to send a giant proxy of themselves into battle, to strike fear into the hearts of their enemies at the mere sight of their image?

This made me smile.
There IS an update booklet for the half-golem book somewhere... but I am supposed to be sleeping. :smallfrown:



Pathfinder?
The 'priced by CR' bit, yeah. The rest was 3.x and from a character long since retired. Accidentally made more matter/mass in Constructs than there was matter/mass in Faerun with that one. I knew concentric circles of Spellclocks that generated more of themselves would make a lot. Just didn't realize it'd really be A LOT.

[Afgncaap5]

Wait, liches have to have their phylactery on their person?

Excellent... the phylacteries might actually be worn in a fashion that the word "phylactery" suggests. I don't care about Constructs or Undead anymore, just that word usage is tended to.

[enderlord99]

Wait, liches have to have their phylactery on their person?

I don't think so... why do you think that?

[Hurnn]

I understand this is a thought exercise, but where exactly is our intrepid lvl 5 necromancer getting 3 wyrmling pyroclastic dragon corpses? It's not like he can pop down to 7-11 and get them in the freezer aisle, or pop over to Gehenna and kill them in the wild.

[Segev]

Part of the issue that makes me lean towards constructs being better is that constructs are more versatile and flexible in design, especially in PF. Almost all of them have rules for actually building them, making them accessible to PCs, albeit with investment in the right build. Necromancy doesn't actually provide tools to create/animate/control all the kinds of undead out there. Command undead is the closest you come for long-term control over many of the better ones, and that's a will save every few days which they might make, and also only gives you charm person level control. Control undead is a fairly lame spell for a necromancer seeking minions; it's honestly more of a heroes' spell to deal with enemy undead.

And, again, outside of a few undead that have instructions printed in their entries, very few undead actually have a means of making them.

I mean, the best I've been able to come up with for creating a Slaymate is deliberately orchestrating a betrayal of a bunch of kids by their parents and guardians so that the kids die, and hoping one of them spontaneously animates as such. Certainly thematically evil enough, but "and then hope it works" is not exactly good design philosophy for a budding evil mastermind.

[RoboEmperor]

Part of the issue that makes me lean towards constructs being better is that constructs are more versatile and flexible in design, especially in PF. Almost all of them have rules for actually building them, making them accessible to PCs, albeit with investment in the right build. Necromancy doesn't actually provide tools to create/animate/control all the kinds of undead out there. Command undead is the closest you come for long-term control over many of the better ones, and that's a will save every few days which they might make, and also only gives you charm person level control. Control undead is a fairly lame spell for a necromancer seeking minions; it's honestly more of a heroes' spell to deal with enemy undead.

And, again, outside of a few undead that have instructions printed in their entries, very few undead actually have a means of making them.

I mean, the best I've been able to come up with for creating a Slaymate is deliberately orchestrating a betrayal of a bunch of kids by their parents and guardians so that the kids die, and hoping one of them spontaneously animates as such. Certainly thematically evil enough, but "and then hope it works" is not exactly good design philosophy for a budding evil mastermind.

I think it's safe to say, the entire undead army in this scenario is being carried by zombie great wyrms of every dragon out there especially because their breath attacks are Su and therefore fully affects all the constructs.

[GilesTheCleric]

On to some clarifications. Originally yes, I'd intended the discussion to be about one of every concievable Construct vs one of every conceivable Undead, and yeah that included one of every zombie/effigy etc.
Both created and commanded were intended as any Undead could be commanded by a cleric as could any Construct thanks to a) Rod of Construct Control and b) the Warforged domain from Eberron.
Theoretically a NI level cleric could command them all and have them fight for the lolz.
And yeah, having their masters and/or creators not be present was also the intention.

However, as has been pointed out epic is a whole nother kind of fight as is caster vs caster. (On that note one could kinda make and control a Lich via mind control and turning, right?)

So some new ground rules would appear to be in order. -snip-

If you wanted to just compare the average undead of each level vs the average construct of each level (or min or max, whatever), that would be pretty easy. If someone has the numbers for all published constructs, we could compare them vs all published undead. It wouldn't capture every single possible variant of templates being applied, though, because I haven't bothered to do that yet.

https://s6.postimg.cc/slt5u7odd/Undead_HP_vs_CR.png

[Quertus]

I understand this is a thought exercise, but where exactly is our intrepid lvl 5 necromancer getting 3 wyrmling pyroclastic dragon corpses? It's not like he can pop down to 7-11 and get them in the freezer aisle, or pop over to Gehenna and kill them in the wild.

Where is this question even coming from?

But, to answer your question anyway, Neogri slave trade + murder would certainly accomplish the task. Or, barring the Neogri, PHII rules for commodity availability, and the price of a slave of their CR -> pretty much anywhere, actually. They really are available at every 7-11 by RAW.

Personally, I prefer to reskin it as a(n un)birthday present from a higher-level relative. "Aw, Dragon corpses? You shouldn't have."

[Zanos]

If you wanted to just compare the average undead of each level vs the average construct of each level (or min or max, whatever), that would be pretty easy. If someone has the numbers for all published constructs, we could compare them vs all published undead. It wouldn't capture every single possible variant of templates being applied, though, because I haven't bothered to do that yet.

https://s6.postimg.cc/slt5u7odd/Undead_HP_vs_CR.png
How'd you pull that data? I have a Java program that parses my pdfs but it's kind of buggy(because I wrote it). I mostly use it to pull polymorph forms.

[GilesTheCleric]

How'd you pull that data? I have a Java program that parses my pdfs but it's kind of buggy(because I wrote it). I mostly use it to pull polymorph forms.

I compared lists I've found, and done a fair amount of data entry.

[Zeb]

I understand this is a thought exercise, but where exactly is our intrepid lvl 5 necromancer getting 3 wyrmling pyroclastic dragon corpses? It's not like he can pop down to 7-11 and get them in the freezer aisle, or pop over to Gehenna and kill them in the wild.

My necromancers like to be artistic with Marvelous Pigments (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#marvelousPigments), corpses/bones are objects right? Then the only hitch is assigning them a value.

[Tjallen]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the clockwork horrors yet, the adamantine one has at will: Disjunction, Implosion (Not a death effect so work on undead as long as they aren't gaseous or incorporeal) and Disintegrate. At CR 9.
Those are some pretty nasty critters.

[Segev]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the clockwork horrors yet, the adamantine one has at will: Disjunction, Implosion (Not a death effect so work on undead as long as they aren't gaseous or incorporeal) and Disintegrate. At CR 9.
Those are some pretty nasty critters.

Now... how does one go about constructing them?

[Mato]

So... what are the strongest undead?As relevant to your list?
A wizard hit with animate dread warrior.
A cleric hit with animate dread warrior.
A druid hit with animate dread warrior.
A sorcerer hit with animate dread warrior.
A favored soul hit with animate dread warrior.
A dread necomancer hit with animate dread warrior.
A warmage hit with animate dread warrior.
A beguiler hit with animate dread warrior.
A warblade hit with animate dread warrior.
A crusader hit with animate dread warrior.
A swordsage hit with animate dread warrior.
etc.

Also
Nearly any undead with decent wisdom with the spell stitched template.
Nearly any undead with the evolved template applied a few times.
Nearly any undead animated by a dread necromancer / wizard in a desecrated area with corpse crafter.
Nearly anything you're not supposed to animate when using Dirgesinger.
Nearly any undead creature posted by someone that uses the words "lifesense", "undead battery", or "hauntshift".
Nearly any, actually every, undead capable of producing more undead under it's control.
Nearly any undead capable of using negative energy, bonus if it's an area effect.
Nearly anything with Dragon Magazine's half-undead template and regeneration.
Nearly anything that uses raise ghost and dominate undead or turn undead.
Nearly anything that involves a caster renewing ghost companion's duration.

I mean I'm pretty sure a Flameskull (lost empires, can be created via create undead), which is completely immortal to everything you posted, can take on every single golem you listed at once just by the virtue of it's flame rays ignore spell resistance, which means magic immunity doesn't apply. And in case you missed it, the reason why a Shadesteel Golem is decent is because it heals your undead. It's a healbot for your better minions, that's it's only purpose.

[unseenmage]

Now... how does one go about constructing them?

Constructing them is doable via the PF Price by CR guidelines but there's a chance the GM still says, 'Lolno it gets up off the worknench and just does what it's kind do.'
Same goes for Rod of Construct Control-ing it.

The Warforged Domain could definitely let you command it though.

[Segev]

Constructing them is doable via the PF Price by CR guidelines but there's a chance the GM still says, 'Lolno it gets up off the worknench and just does what it's kind do.'
Same goes for Rod of Construct Control-ing it.

The Warforged Domain could definitely let you command it though.

And this is why Constructs are better than Undead: you have rules for how to actually get the ones you want. Undead often have no rules defining how to make them.

[unseenmage]

And this is why Constructs are better than Undead: you have rules for how to actually get the ones you want. Undead often have no rules defining how to make them.

Theoretically custom spell research for Create Undead variants is just about as valid as the PF guidelines would be. :smalltongue: