'Teaching a Lesson' - going too far?

[Maelynn]

The party of my group is starting to become a bit meddlesome, according to my BBEG. He has had a few setbacks because of their actions, and wants to teach them a lesson. He's planning on sending a few thugs to convey that message. The CR is too high, and they'll pick a moment when the party is inside a large anti-magic field so they can't use any (healing) spells. The aim is to knock out the entire party through non-lethal damage, and leave them in a back alley to lick their wounds. (I preferred to have them insta-knocked out with something like a sap, but it seems the 5e rules insist on bringing a PC down to 0 hp before knocking them unconscious)

Now, my question is: can I justify this plan? While it would be a good scene in a film, I'm not sure how it carries over in an RPG where player agency is very important. And if I gimp the party's magic, send overpowered mobs at them, and then leave them unconscious in a back alley for 1d4+1 hours, it might feel a bit too forced. On the other hand, it's a minor incident, without any consequences, except for the party realising that someone higher up has been pissed off. That, in fact, there is a BBEG - because at this point they've no idea yet.

So what do you think, can I just go ahead with this ambush? Or should I expect my players to rightfully object, because this is an unfair way to get the message across? In case of the latter, I'd love to hear better suggestions, because I can't think of any. Poisons like Essence of Ether is too expensive for the BBEG to waste on that lot, magic isn't an option, so physically knocking out seems the only option left.

[Trask]

Unwinnable scenarios that the players have no way to avoid are generally not hallmarks of good DMing unless you run an extremely story based railroad and everyone is OK with that. And why wouldn't these thugs kill them, take all their loot, and scram?

Lets take a look at the root here, you have a BBEG who is being meddled with by troublesome vigilante would-be-heroes. What does he do? Well that depends on a lot of factors but I'll assume they havent done anything to warrant death so you go with the "rough em up" route.

What I would do is scrap the preplanned encounter and think like the thugs this BBEG is sending. They want to beat up these people with minimal risk to themselves so they scope out the party and set a trap. They monitor them, tail them in streets etc, get them separated. Its at this point that the PCs really should have a chance to see something is amiss. This does NOT mean tell them everything, but knowing they are being tailed is all they'll need to get paranoid.

Then have your thugs execute their plan. Brutal and unfair, just how thugs like it. If the players took zero precautions then now they know this BBEG means business. But if they were attentive, creative, and lucky they thwart this plan, or at least fight it off, and the BBEG can gnash his teeth.

The difference between that and your original idea? The players have a choice. Yes movies do scenes where the hero barely escapes all the time, or gets beat up. But D&D isn't a movie. The players are an active element in the game and to force events on the characters without any real chance for recourse is taking away their unique position as active participants in the game.

[Unoriginal]

I'd say: leave the players the choice -and the chance- to handle the encounter as they see fit.

Trask's post is pretty much 100% right about this.

Having powerful enemies ambush the PCs at a time where the PCs are at disadvantage is not a bad thing or a "wrong move", but just like stealing from the PCs, you have to be fair about it.

You have a bunch of thugs who are here to send a message. Have them act like it.

If it turns out the PCs fight 'til every single of them is KO, then let them do it.

If it turns out the PCs can run away, then let them do it.

If it turns out the PCs can defeat them, then let them do it.

But don't try to force an outcome.

[Maelynn]

Thanks guys, that's exactly what I needed to hear.

To be honest, the main reason I came up with this was because the campaign so far has seen very little combat, and the same goes for the upcoming quest. So I thought about inserting a back alley ambush and link it to the BBEG, but realised that it wouldn't be much of a warning if they could just kick the thug's behinds and send them off crying. It kind of grew from there, to a point where I started to doubt the result and brought it to this forum. Glad I did.

I think I'll be better off avoiding combat altogether while they're in the anti-magic field, and then just dump a random encounter on them while they're on the road to the next quest area. For the past 2 weeks I've been working on lists of '100 random encounters' for city, road, and campsite, so I've got plenty of options there. :D

And if I still want to convey a message, then there's always the good old 'threaten someone they care about' move... :smallamused:

[tensai_oni]

Let me ask you OP, what's wrong in conveying a message through an encounter that is CR-appropriate for the players? One that the players can beat? You said your game's issue is having too little combat, an encounter where the players fight thugs of an adequate challenge is more of a combat than one where they just get (non-lethally) wiped out.

You said it's not much of a warning if player characters win. I disagree. It's a plothook and a very good way to introduce a new antagonist who can later escalate the situation with more challenging or deadly encounters. On the other hand, having an unfair fight out of nowhere because some villain that wasn't introduced before and the players never heard of didn't like what they're doing doesn't sound very fun. Look at it from the players' perspective - it feels like they're being punished for something they didn't know was a problem, by someone they didn't know existed.

So I'd say, start out small (level appropriate encounter - just as an introduction) and then escalate.

[Unoriginal]

Thanks guys, that's exactly what I needed to hear.

To be honest, the main reason I came up with this was because the campaign so far has seen very little combat, and the same goes for the upcoming quest. So I thought about inserting a back alley ambush and link it to the BBEG, but realised that it wouldn't be much of a warning if they could just kick the thug's behinds and send them off crying. It kind of grew from there, to a point where I started to doubt the result and brought it to this forum. Glad I did.

I think I'll be better off avoiding combat altogether while they're in the anti-magic field, and then just dump a random encounter on them while they're on the road to the next quest area. For the past 2 weeks I've been working on lists of '100 random encounters' for city, road, and campsite, so I've got plenty of options there. :D

And if I still want to convey a message, then there's always the good old 'threaten someone they care about' move... :smallamused:

You could have someone they care about tell the PCs "X has come to my house/place of work, and told me to tell you you better be careful about who you upset, then that you should go meet them at Y place"

Then when the PCs go, X turns out to be a big enforcer of the BBEG, maybe busy doing some task showing how powerful they are, in the "bad guy at the gym" style. And the enforcer repeat the warning, and if the PCs still try to act as if they're a big deal, the enforcer say they'll teach one of the PCs a lesson in a 1-to-1 fight... or the PCs better leave before the enforcer's goons "attack those strangers who are trying to act menacing for no reasons, in self defense of course."

That'll give the PCs a warning. If they continue to get in the BBEG's way, they'll get ambushed.

Not sure it'll fit your campaing, but now I'm imagining the enforcer as a massive, towering half-dragon woman gangster who fights in hand-to-hand.

[Maelynn]

That'll give the PCs a warning. If they continue to get in the BBEG's way, they'll get ambushed.

Yeah, the more I think of it the more I must conclude that it's just too soon. In trying to link everything together, I might be tossing in something that's better left for later. I guess that's what my biggest issue is atm, that I want things to be too meaningful and then end up with ideas like this.


Not sure it'll fit your campaing, but now I'm imagining the enforcer as a massive, towering half-dragon woman gangster who fights in hand-to-hand.

Haha, wow what a coincidence.. one of the lieutenants of the BBEG is a Dragonborn Fighter who runs a company and who'll serve as a first hurdle. He's Lawful Evil and is fashioned after the mafia way of conducting business.