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PiperThePaladin
2018-07-29, 04:55 PM
I am setting up an adventure for my players using the three-clue rule outlined in this article: http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/7985/roleplaying-games/node-based-scenario-design-part-3-inverting-the-three-clue-rule. Trouble is, I'm having some problems brainstorming one of the "clues" that my players need to find.

For reasons, my players need to get inside the secret base of a powerful gang in a corrupt city. I have laid out three pieces of information that they need to do this.

1. The location of the base
2. A key to get into the base
3. A password to go with the key

Problem is, I really don't like the last one. No one would leave a password lying around on a piece of paper to be discovered, and I don't want to make the gang look incompetent. I could hide the password inside and NPC, to be accessed by charm or interrogation. But anyone who knows the password would also know a ton of info about the inside of the base, which I don't want the party to have until they discover it for themselves.

Anyone have some good ideas for what third thing they need? It's a high-magic medieval setting. I also might just scrap the third clue and use only the first two. They will be involved enough encounters on their own, maybe there's no reason to reach for three as some magic number.

TheStranger
2018-07-29, 06:25 PM
No one would leave a password lying around on a piece of paper to be discovered
In any decent sized office, there is at least one person who writes their passwords on a post-it stuck to their monitor (and most of the rest keep them in a Word document called "passwords"). Somewhere in the gang, there's a guy whose solution to remembering this week's password is to just write it down somewhere. It's somewhere nobody could get to without beating up him and his friends, and that's not going to happen, so it's perfectly safe.

However, I think the point of the three-clue rule isn't that the players should need all three clues, it's that there should be three clues because the players will miss two of them.

Coventry
2018-07-29, 09:04 PM
However, I think the point of the three-clue rule isn't that the players should need all three clues, it's that there should be three clues because the players will miss two of them.

This. So very much this.

In the scenario you have laid out, you need three clues for each obstacle

1) Location of the base

Maybe they tail an operative back to it.
Maybe the find a shipping manifest with the address
Maybe the local constabulary talk about how they NEVER go there because bad things happen
Maybe the local street urchins stole something from the base, and the base security makes a scene trying to recover the lost stuff


2) A key to get into the base

Change this to be "how do they get in?"

The local urchin can show them the secret path
The party can sneak in as contractors - maybe caterers for a party, maybe as guards for an out-of-town emissary, maybe bluffing their way in to collect the monthly hush money paid to the local constables-on-the-take
Maybe the party snags an invitation from someone


3) A password to go with the key

That is really part of the second obstacle. Instead, let's go for some other obstacle, such as, "where do they have to go once inside the base"?

They find out that someone planted a tracker on something that ends up where they want to go
They find a note on minion that says, that the boss wanted them to "Bring the prisoner to the tower"/"sub-level C"/"the throne room"/"the vault behind the bar"
From outside the base, they hear the sound of someone tapping on the pipes - too small for any PC to enter, but enough to exchange a message.


And then sit back and let them run with what combination they find. That last one I wrote -> "too small for any PC to enter" is quite vulnerable to any D&D party. If it makes sense that they accidentally create their own clue, let them. Their victory will be that much more sweet.

Darth Ultron
2018-07-29, 10:39 PM
In any decent sized office, there is at least one person who writes their passwords on a post-it stuck to their monitor (and most of the rest keep them in a Word document called "passwords"). Somewhere in the gang, there's a guy whose solution to remembering this week's password is to just write it down somewhere. It's somewhere nobody could get to without beating up him and his friends, and that's not going to happen, so it's perfectly safe.


I have done cyber security and can tell you this is true. One of our first things to do is to go to an office and find as many passwords as we can. It's always fun to catch like a CFO or IM Manager with a password of 'password' written on a post it note on their desk.



However, I think the point of the three-clue rule isn't that the players should need all three clues, it's that there should be three clues because the players will miss two of them.

And, like said above, you need three clues for each item...maybe even as many as five. Depending on your players.

It might feel a bit weird to make three clues for each secret item, but you simply have to. The players will miss or not get at least two of them.

Now, you might think that ''real'' bad guys would never be that dumb.....but, you are wrong. Everyday, law enforcement catches bad guys as they make silly and stupid mistakes. Everyday, people are victims of crime as they make simple mistakes.

The vast bulk of 'adventure', 'action' or Cop TV shows will give you a good, fictional, idea of what works good.

KillianHawkeye
2018-07-29, 11:19 PM
Yeah. If anything, having there be at least one or two incompetent oafs in an otherwise savvy and well-organized gang just makes the whole scenario more realistic. In fact, in any group of more than ten people, it's probably best to avoid any thought that starts with "there's no way one of them would...", because chances are good that somebody will find a way. Every group has a weak link.

Deophaun
2018-07-29, 11:43 PM
However, I think the point of the three-clue rule isn't that the players should need all three clues, it's that there should be three clues because the players will miss two of them.
It's even more than that in the article linked. The article has three clues, each one pointing to a different option, and then those options provide additional clues pointing to each other. It's for the creation of non-linear scenarios.

Yeah, OP, you're doing it wrong. You don't have three clues; you have three keys. The first key tells you where, the second key is a physical key, and the third key is the password. Without any one of them, the players cannot progress. You have three points of failure instead of one point of failure and two redundancies.

jayem
2018-07-30, 01:14 AM
Yeah, OP, you're doing it wrong. You don't have three clues; you have three keys. The first key tells you where, the second key is a physical key, and the third key is the password. Without any one of them, the players cannot progress. You have three points of failure instead of one point of failure and two redundancies.

The OP example is more of a three act rule. Which also has a lot of virtues. You get to set up a pattern etc...

The other plus thing about the 3 clue rule is that at that you have the breadth to be very flexible. You are already in the mindset to realise unplanned clues/strategies. While the other way if the players ignore a clue, you can let them. If the players screw up completely again you are already half set up (you get caught shadowing, well the shipping manifests are still there, the caterers won't be allowed but the secret way is still secret

Or alternatively the secret way is now blatantly obvious because of the pair of guards guarding it. Changing it to a fighting challenge.

).

PiperThePaladin
2018-07-30, 10:07 AM
It looks like I wasn't clear enough - the location, password and key aren't clues, they are the things the clues lead to. I am definitely planning to give loads of clues to get to each piece of information. The starting point has clues that lead to all three pieces of information, and each piece of information has addition clues around it that leads back to the others.

With that being said, after thinking it over I think the setup is more complicated than it needs to be. I don't like the password requirement, and I haven't been able to think of any good clues to lead to it. I have lots of good clues and alternate pathways to lead to the physical key and the location of the base. So I think I'm going to just stick with those.

PiperThePaladin
2018-07-30, 10:16 AM
And Deophaun has a good point - three points of failure is pretty dangerous, even if I have lots of clues pointing to them.

tyckspoon
2018-07-30, 05:54 PM
It looks like I wasn't clear enough - the location, password and key aren't clues, they are the things the clues lead to. I am definitely planning to give loads of clues to get to each piece of information. The starting point has clues that lead to all three pieces of information, and each piece of information has addition clues around it that leads back to the others.

With that being said, after thinking it over I think the setup is more complicated than it needs to be. I don't like the password requirement, and I haven't been able to think of any good clues to lead to it. I have lots of good clues and alternate pathways to lead to the physical key and the location of the base. So I think I'm going to just stick with those.

I would tend to think of a key as something used for an unattended door, and a password as something for a guarded entry (or alternately an electronic lock/computer system, but then that's just another form of key.) So maybe the players could acquire a key that would let them in a mostly unattended side door or delivery gate (possibly leading into a stealth challenge as they try to evade detection while they get further into the base), or they can get a password that will convince the front gate guards to open the main doors for them (leading into a social or combat challenge as they attempt to further fake being allowed to be there or just say screw it and assault the guards.)

If you still want a third 'key' they need to acquire, perhaps move the password to be something they need to discover and use once they are already inside of the base? A secured room/storage area/holding cell/computer system contains one of their objectives, and they need to acquire the password to get into it. Once they're already in the base, it should be a lot easier to have them encounter people and areas that could reasonably provide clues to it; maybe they interrogate a goon who doesn't know the password himself, but he *does* know the IT guy is always complaining about the boss's horrible password practices. In the break room they see a publicly posted trivial password (the combo for free drinks from the soda machine or the public wifi passphrase or something); maybe the boss is reusing that? They break into the boss's office and see a circled reminder on his calendar for his (wife/daughter/mother's) birthday, or photos with his dog's name engraved on a nameplate. That gets them into a personal device of his (computer, smartphone, tablet, etc) where they discover the password they need .. which is part of a complex weekly rotation based on obscure rules. Fortunately the boss can't be bothered to remember the rules, so the passwords for the next month or so are just written in a document in plain view on the desktop.

Calthropstu
2018-07-30, 08:18 PM
I have done cyber security and can tell you this is true. One of our first things to do is to go to an office and find as many passwords as we can. It's always fun to catch like a CFO or IM Manager with a password of 'password' written on a post it note on their desk.



And, like said above, you need three clues for each item...maybe even as many as five. Depending on your players.

It might feel a bit weird to make three clues for each secret item, but you simply have to. The players will miss or not get at least two of them.

Now, you might think that ''real'' bad guys would never be that dumb.....but, you are wrong. Everyday, law enforcement catches bad guys as they make silly and stupid mistakes. Everyday, people are victims of crime as they make simple mistakes.

The vast bulk of 'adventure', 'action' or Cop TV shows will give you a good, fictional, idea of what works good.

Heh. I wrote a fake login/password on a piece of paper that was granted access to a fake dummy system. Anyone using it triggered an alarm and activated the in monitor camera.

It LOOKED like the real system though. So whatever damage or information you intended to access, you'd probably think you accessed. Your method of checking security would likely result in some... Interesting situations where I worked.

tomandtish
2018-08-01, 03:54 PM
Now, you might think that ''real'' bad guys would never be that dumb.....but, you are wrong. Everyday, law enforcement catches bad guys as they make silly and stupid mistakes. Everyday, people are victims of crime as they make simple mistakes.



To take that a step further, law enforcement (esp. detectives) is predicated on the idea of criminals making mistakes. The criminals who make NO mistakes at all don't get caught.

Now it's possible that the "mistake" was unavoidable given the circumstances, but it was still made. Where detectives (ideally) specializes is in FINDING the mistakes that were made, and putting them together in cohesive fashion to determine what occurred.

Segev
2018-08-01, 05:10 PM
Regarding the physical key and the password... be prepared for the players to use magic or brute force or stealth or other chicanery to bypass these. Don't specifically set out to prevent it (unless the bad guys already would be prepped against it), but be aware of it. Allow it to work if it should, and be careful about saying "it shouldn't." Really ask yourself if something they're doing should work or not. The temptation will be to enforce your "right" way of doing it.

But in truth, getting inside can happen a number of ways. "Through the proper door with the proper keys" is only one of them. The only unavoidable thing is finding out the location, and even THAT could be gotten around if they were clever enough. e.g. by slipping aboard a shipment that's being taken to the location.