Building a Succubus Out of a Beguiler

[BlackOnyx]

For an upcoming sandbox campaign, I'm building a human Beguiler (male) who's something of a high society entertainer, escort, and information broker. His background involves him being raised in a "Companion's Parlor" run by a long-lived succubus matron (Minerva) who settled down on the material plane a while back for a change of pace.


That in mind, much of the inspiration for the build has revolved around the idea of building a succubus out of a Beguiler: focusing primarily on skills, spells, and feats that would emulate those of the PC's mentor. Currently, the plan is to go full Beguiler, aside from a dip into Mindbender at level 6 for telepathy (and, by extension, the Mindsight feat).

Character stats as follows (we're beginning at level 1):


Ability Scores
Int 18, Cha 16, Con 13, Wis 12, Dex 12, Str 10

Alignment
TN, possibly bordering on NE


Skills Focused On
Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense Motive, Disguise, Sleight of Hand, Spot, Listen, Hide, Move Silently, Gather Information, Concentration


Feats to Take
Level 1: Jack of All Trades, [Open]
Level 3: [Open]
Level 6: Mindsight
Level 9+: [Open]


That in mind, what suggestions might you have for a build with this sort of theme to it? (It doesn't necessarily need to mimic succubi abilities 1:1, but simply mesh with the overall theme.) Feat suggestions in particular would be greatly appreciated.

[Florian]

Can you back-port PF stuff? Enchanting Courtesan looks pretty close to your overall theme.
https://www.aonprd.com/PrestigeClassesDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Enchanting%20 Courtesan

[NontheistCleric]

Would emulating a succubus's shape-shifting capability be of interest to you? If so, I would recommend taking a level in Egoist using the ACF that gives you the Changeling Minor Shapeshift ability (Mind's Eye, WoTC Web).

Terribly unoptimal, of course. You're losing a whole level of casting for a single ability that doesn't do much power-wise, but since this exercise is not about power but emulating a succubus, I thought it appropriate. You can use most of the forms a succubus can, as their shapeshifting is limited to Small and Medium humanoids. You can even do Small ones if you are short enough (although your actual size will stay Medium).

[Cosi]

I think the big things a succubus does that a Beguiler doesn't are (in roughly the order of importance, IMO) the Energy Drain kiss, the wings, shapechanging, the summon ability, and the defenses. The wings are the easiest to get. You could go with Raptoran as your base race, or ask your DM to let you refluff Dragonborn. The shapechanging could be emulated by getting alter self on your list, though that's not at will. If your DM is open to homebrew, you might be able to convince them to accept a shapechange-esque spell that lets you repeatedly alter self. The summon ability is easy to do in general (just put summon monster IX on your list), but hard to do early. The defenses could be grabbed by getting whatever random spells give those defenses. That leaves the energy drain. The easiest answer is Soul Eater, but that's real hard to get into as a Beguiler.

My recommendation would be to use Apprentice (Spellcaster) to grab you the spells you need to emulate various abilities.

[Rebel7284]

Fell drain metamagic for the negative levels? Since it only applies to spells that deal damage, it would have to be a "love bite" instead of kiss, but even kinkier that way, right? ;)

[liquidformat]

I think the big things a succubus does that a Beguiler doesn't are (in roughly the order of importance, IMO) the Energy Drain kiss, the wings, shapechanging, the summon ability, and the defenses. The wings are the easiest to get. You could go with Raptoran as your base race, or ask your DM to let you refluff Dragonborn. The shapechanging could be emulated by getting alter self on your list, though that's not at will. If your DM is open to homebrew, you might be able to convince them to accept a shapechange-esque spell that lets you repeatedly alter self. The summon ability is easy to do in general (just put summon monster IX on your list), but hard to do early. The defenses could be grabbed by getting whatever random spells give those defenses. That leaves the energy drain. The easiest answer is Soul Eater, but that's real hard to get into as a Beguiler.

My recommendation would be to use Apprentice (Spellcaster) to grab you the spells you need to emulate various abilities.

Rather that trying to jump through these hoops trying to homebrew some weird convoluted race just go changeling and be done with it. You are also going to want to pickup shadow conjuration to simulate the summoning and shadow evocation to for use with fell drain.

Honestly this might be a bit easier to pull off going Wizard with either enchanter Social Proficiency acf or with changling wizard level subs but that takes away some of the fun of trying to make a beguiler work.

[Cosi]

Rather that trying to jump through these hoops trying to homebrew some weird convoluted race just go changeling and be done with it.

That might work. I forget if the Changeling's disguise self is something you keep after going Dragonborn, but on the off chance that it is, you could get both wings and shapeshifting by going with a refluffed Dragonborn Changling. Alternatively, there's possibly some racial feat the Changeling could qualify for via Racial Emulation. I just think it's easier to get wings from your race and cast alter self.


You are also going to want to pickup shadow conjuration to simulate the summoning and shadow evocation to for use with fell drain.

Fell Drain shadow evocation doesn't really do what you want. The Succubus doesn't hit people with AoEs that inflict negative levels, or any kind of ranged blasting (read: most of evocation). It hits people with a touch attack that inflicts negative levels. I would recommend finding something that gives you a touch attack and stick Fell Drain on that. Maybe make it Persistent somehow.

shadow conjuration is similarly unhelpful, as the Succubus specifically summons a Vrock (which, contrary to what I said earlier, is summon monster VIII, not IX).

[Gullintanni]

Fell drain metamagic for the negative levels? Since it only applies to spells that deal damage, it would have to be a "love bite" instead of kiss, but even kinkier that way, right? ;)

Beguilers have spells that deal non-lethal damage IIRC. Ideal for this application?

[liquidformat]

That might work. I forget if the Changeling's disguise self is something you keep after going Dragonborn, but on the off chance that it is, you could get both wings and shapeshifting by going with a refluffed Dragonborn Changling. Alternatively, there's possibly some racial feat the Changeling could qualify for via Racial Emulation. I just think it's easier to get wings from your race and cast alter self.
I believe refluffed dragonborn could work, the reason I called out changeling wizard substitution levels is because of the minor shape change abilities they give you and easy access to alter self. They also give you bluff and disguise. Though that doesn't work in this case since we are sticking to beguiler... AFB so can't look to see if there is a combo of changeling feats for this.



Fell Drain shadow evocation doesn't really do what you want. The Succubus doesn't hit people with AoEs that inflict negative levels, or any kind of ranged blasting (read: most of evocation). It hits people with a touch attack that inflicts negative levels. I would recommend finding something that gives you a touch attack and stick Fell Drain on that. Maybe make it Persistent somehow.

Shadow Evocation does have a few touch spells, so yes it does work as long as you stick to those, plus it gives the beguiler a bit more versatility so I stick by it.


shadow conjuration is similarly unhelpful, as the Succubus specifically summons a Vrock (which, contrary to what I said earlier, is summon monster VIII, not IX).

Mea Culpa, I just did a quick look at succubus and had seen that the summoning ability was being treated as a 'third level spell' so was like oh perfect shadow conjuration will do that just fine. But yes you are correct, summon monster VIII is needed...

[Blue Jay]

There's a Thrall of Malcanthet PrC from Dragon Magazine. It would take a little tweaking to fit this character, but if your DM is amenable, it gives several succubus abilities, like Cha to AC, a 3/day draining kiss, and 7/10 spellcasting. The capstone lets you transform into an pseudo-succubus for an hour a day. It's definitely Evil, though; so it would probably only work for you if your DM is willing to modify it a bit.

[Ramza00]

I would do a changeling race and figure out a way to get flight.









Here is one option that I will go into depth now. One option is to the changeling race and then do the Half Fey Template which had a custom option on wizards.com website that allows you to gain levels in it as a character class instead of being born in it like most half fey.

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a

1 Level (aka 3,000 XP bought off after HD 3 with the UA reducing level adjustment rules) gives you charm person (spell like ability) at will, plus some bonuses to stats, low light vision, bonus to enchantment spell saves, and a half a dozen spell like abilities depending on your HD. Note unlike other savage progressions these racial / template character classes on the wizards.com website you are not required to take the full race / template and can do a dip just to get certain traits, while taking a larger or complete dip to get all the traits.

Note with the Savage Species feat Supernatural Transformation you change your charm person at will spell like ability (Sp) to an supernatural ability (Su). This gives you a save DC bonus for it is no longer 10+1 (Spell Level)+Cha but now is 10+1/2 your HD+Cha plus it does many other things.


1) Save DC boost as already mentioned.
2) It removes the option for people to dispel or use spell resistance to block your Su Charm Person.
3) Your Su no longer does attacks of opportunity.
4) It is still a standard action to use Su Charm Person, but now no one is aware that you did it. No movements, no spell components, no spellcraft checks, nothing, it is a purely mental ability that is directed. Only if a person fails their save they knew something happened in their back of their mind but they have no clue what happened and even if its back or good, wrong or neutral. It just makes their hairs on their head go up. Yet you as a caster are aware if the charm person at will worked, and you can keep on repeating the standard action at will so eventually you will get them if they do not get paranoid and start a battle against an unseen enemy.



Aka Charm Person at will is not just a battle thing, but it is now a thing you can use all the time with NPC in the non combat parts of D&D. It dramatically alters social play, being able to make anyone your friend at will, and not even other people noticing.

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If you take 2 LA (or 9000 XP with level buy off, 6000+3000) of Half Fey now you get your wings, more spell like abilities, immunity to enchantments, and higher stats. Oh the original 2 LA of Half Fey also gets DR 5 / Iron (or should it be Cold Iron) per the Fiend Follio 3.5 update. The character class version of Half Fey on the website omits this but I bet this is just an unintentional mistep and you can talk to your DM about adding it back.

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Now 1 LA of Half Fey makes your type a fey.

But if you were to take the feat Otherworldly your type would change to outsider native. Per the Savage Species Type Paradigm Outsider Native > Fey though this doesn't really matter but if you really care about being an Outsider instead of a Fey or something you can take the Otherworldly feat even though the benefits / mechanical differences are minor.

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1 LA of Half Fey changes your stats Dex +2, Cha +2, Con -2.

Losing 2 con hurts (more on this later.)

2 LA of Half Fey does an additional Wis +2, Cha +2 for a total change of Dex +2, Con -2, Wis +2, Cha +4

But Dragon 306 introduced some variant templates depending on where you were born and your bloodline


Magic Blood (named "Spark" in Parenthesis) on page 64 of Dragon 306 gives you +2 Cha and -2 Wis and some other minor benefits for a Level Adjustment of +0.
Arctic ("Ice-Dweller" in Parenthesis) in the same article of Dragon 306 page 61 and 62 gives you -2 Cha +2 Con and some other benefits.


So if you did a Magic Blood Half Fey (Both Levels of HF) you get a total stats of Dex +2, Con -2, Wis +0, Cha +6.

Or if you did a Artic Magic Blood Half Fey (Both Levels of HF) you get a total stats of Dex +2, Con +0, Wis +0, Cha +4.

All those stat changes, charm person at will, other spell like abilities, immunity to enchantments, wings for your succubus, and many other thigns for a small price of 9,000 XP.

Let Changeling give you an alter self like effect that is not alter self, Half Fey give you wings, stat boosts, immunity to enchantment, and some cool supplemental SPs. And then use other ways to get negative levels and there are several. Technically Half Fey or Otherworldly will allow you to take 1 level into Souleater. But there are other ways to do negative levels like Fell Drain, or adding Energy Drain to the Beguiler Spell List or the 6th level spell Spectral Touch.

[Telonius]

I used this build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19121436&postcount=65) in a Villainous Competition to make a Pleasure Devil (Lawful Evil version of a Succubus) out of a Half-Fiend Changeling. Beguiler 14/ Mindbender1/ Fiend of Corruption 2.

[BlackOnyx]

Can you back-port PF stuff? Enchanting Courtesan looks pretty close to your overall theme.
https://www.aonprd.com/PrestigeClassesDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Enchanting%20 Courtesan


That's actually just about a perfect fit for what I had in mind. I really like the enchanting/deluding/overwhelming touch line in particular.

That said, we are sticking strictly to 3.5e, so I don't think I'll be able to take it this time around. (Thanks for bringing it up, though.)



Would emulating a succubus's shape-shifting capability be of interest to you? If so, I would recommend taking a level in Egoist using the ACF that gives you the Changeling Minor Shapeshift ability (Mind's Eye, WoTC Web).


Terribly unoptimal, of course. You're losing a whole level of casting for a single ability that doesn't do much power-wise, but since this exercise is not about power but emulating a succubus, I thought it appropriate.


Definitely an interesting idea, but yeah, I think that's one area of emulation I'm willing to let slide. Disguise Self is a close enough analogue considering the investment that shapeshifting would require.

That said, I'll keep that suggestion in mind should shapeshifting become a more attractive/necessary option later on.



The wings are the easiest to get. You could go with Raptoran as your base race, or ask your DM to let you refluff Dragonborn.


Rather that trying to jump through these hoops trying to homebrew some weird convoluted race just go changeling and be done with it. You are also going to want to pickup shadow conjuration to simulate the summoning and shadow evocation to for use with fell drain.


Great suggestions, but for the purpose of this particular build & backstory, I'm actually quite smitten with the idea of roleplaying a run of the mill human doing his best with the skills he has. (I'll admit it's a common theme for pretty much all of my characters; I really like my humans.)



Honestly this might be a bit easier to pull off going Wizard with either enchanter Social Proficiency acf or with changling wizard level subs but that takes away some of the fun of trying to make a beguiler work.


Ha, agreed. Beguiler sounded like a fun change of pace (I play a lot of clerics), so I figured I'd give it a try.



Fell drain metamagic for the negative levels? Since it only applies to spells that deal damage, it would have to be a "love bite" instead of kiss, but even kinkier that way, right? ;)


Kink, huh? Kink is good. (I find myself tempted to pick up a pair of sex dice to determine how individual attacks play out.)

Jokes aside though, that's actually an interesting idea. I hadn't really considered emulating the succubus's energy drain, but that could be an interesting way to go about it later on.



shadow conjuration is similarly unhelpful, as the Succubus specifically summons a Vrock (which, contrary to what I said earlier, is summon monster VIII, not IX).


I will say I'm not too particularly worried about summoning a Vrock specifically;Shadow Conjuration should be close enough to the mark for my purposes.



Beguilers have spells that deal non-lethal damage IIRC. Ideal for this application?


Good call. I think the character I had in mind would prefer that to most standard damage spells (still a bit painful, but nonlethal).



There's a Thrall of Malcanthet PrC from Dragon Magazine. It would take a little tweaking to fit this character, but if your DM is amenable, it gives several succubus abilities, like Cha to AC, a 3/day draining kiss, and 7/10 spellcasting. The capstone lets you transform into an pseudo-succubus for an hour a day. It's definitely Evil, though; so it would probably only work for you if your DM is willing to modify it a bit.


Oh wo-WOW. That is quite the class. Like you mentioned, probably a bit more on the evil side than I had imagined for my character, but a lot of the abilities definitely what I'm looking for.



I would do a changeling race and figure out a way to get flight.

...

Note with the Savage Species feat Supernatural Transformation you change your charm person at will spell like ability (Sp) to an supernatural ability (Su). This gives you a save DC bonus for it is no longer 10+1 (Spell Level)+Cha but now is 10+1/2 your HD+Cha plus it does many other things.


1) Save DC boost as already mentioned.
2) It removes the option for people to dispel or use spell resistance to block your Su Charm Person.
3) Your Su no longer does attacks of opportunity.
4) It is still a standard action to use Su Charm Person, but now no one is aware that you did it. No movements, no spell components, no spellcraft checks, nothing, it is a purely mental ability that is directed. Only if a person fails their save they knew something happened in their back of their mind but they have no clue what happened and even if its back or good, wrong or neutral. It just makes their hairs on their head go up. Yet you as a caster are aware if the charm person at will worked, and you can keep on repeating the standard action at will so eventually you will get them if they do not get paranoid and start a battle against an unseen enemy.



While I think I will be sticking to an untemplated human, that's definitely an intriguing line of play. Charm Person as a (Su) ability would be pretty nifty.



I used this build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19121436&postcount=65) in a Villainous Competition to make a Pleasure Devil (Lawful Evil version of a Succubus) out of a Half-Fiend Changeling. Beguiler 14/ Mindbender1/ Fiend of Corruption 2.


Thanks for the build post. I especially like the background/ideology sections you included (speaking in half-truths, fanning the flames of pride, etc.). Very well thought out.