Creativity as a problem

[Lorse]

Hi Everybody,

so i always wanted to play pen and paper and how now started a group with some of my friends. Since i am the only one who read the rules ( -.- ) i am now the GM. This is quite fine with me since I enjoy watching everybody play their role (sorry for my broken english). I have enountered quite a few things that challenge me quite a lot, one of them being that some of my players are always looking for some extra effects on spells and attacks. For example the Dragonborn uses his firebreath and asks if the brush starts burning so the goblins take extra damage and it blocks line of sight for their archers. He enhances his breath while doing in threw a naturale fire, the druid uses his chill (frost spell something) and wants to freeze the enemy all together with a god roll, or complain when the enemy is badly wounded but still fights and moves normal. Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy all their input but I am afraid to creat some kind of precedence that this will always work and become some sort of an extra move or one trick pony. But at the same time I don't want to be a buzzkill all day long.

"I flash my cape in front of them so they can't see me while I dodge" to get enhanced AC seems kinda powerfull if you do it every time, same with creating a flaming barrier that at the same time blocks out all enemy archers.

How do you guys handle something like that?

Oh since I am already posting, totally unrelated question about surprises. "I run straight ahead until I see enemys" because our druid got bored. Everybody runs after him. He runs into a tunnel with 6 Goblins in it with his friends around 10 feet behind him. All roll Initiative, Goblins second to last, almost all of them dead before they act and druid gets no damage. I understood it that way that if anything both sides would be surprised (or none) and everything acts like a normal fight. Is this correct?Or would they have heard him coming?I am a little confused because the group is quite bad at stealth or just eager to fight so they just run into stuff but i cant see the drawback.

Sorry for the confusing post, thank you :)

[sophontteks]

Being creative with dragon breath is essential. I think the player had a great idea reducing visibility with smoke.

The whole wounded thing is a misunderstanding of hitpoints. You can be more careful with describing effects to prevent this. If a creature with, say 40 hitpoints was dealt 6 damage with a fire spell. The spell probaably didn't hurt him at all, but instead 'threw it off balance' or 'wore it down'. Being dealt hitpoint damage doesn't mean the creature was literally damaged. Even when dropped to 0 they are merely unconscious. Just make hits appear less lethall so they understand this.

[Magzimum]

Hi Everybody,

so i always wanted to play pen and paper and how now started a group with some of my friends. Since i am the only one who read the rules ( -.- ) i am now the GM. This is quite fine with me since I enjoy watching everybody play their role (sorry for my broken english). I have enountered quite a few things that challenge me quite a lot, one of them being that some of my players are always looking for some extra effects on spells and attacks. For example the Dragonborn uses his firebreath and asks if the brush starts burning so the goblins take extra damage and it blocks line of sight for their archers. He enhances his breath while doing in threw a naturale fire, the druid uses his chill (frost spell something) and wants to freeze the enemy all together with a god roll, or complain when the enemy is badly wounded but still fights and moves normal. Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy all their input but I am afraid to creat some kind of precedence that this will always work and become some sort of an extra move or one trick pony. But at the same time I don't want to be a buzzkill all day long.

"I flash my cape in front of them so they can't see me while I dodge" to get enhanced AC seems kinda powerfull if you do it every time, same with creating a flaming barrier that at the same time blocks out all enemy archers.

How do you guys handle something like that?

It is very common for new players to come up with creative ways to (hopefully) do more damage. The most common is (in my opinion) the player who targets the eyes of the creature, in the hope of dealing damage and also blinding the enemy.

You should explain to them that this is usually not possible, because the game is balanced so that all the players have an equal chance to shine in your adventure, but also so that you as a GM can come up with challenging fights. If the enemy does not stand a chance, then it will be a boring game in the long run.

However, sometimes there are situations where a player does find a creative way to deal more damage. Example: The pirates approach your ship in a wooden sailboat. The wizard casts fireball, and the pirate ship's sail immediately burst into flames. With a 2nd fireball, the whole ship is burning and goes down soon after. Personally, I call this the "rule of cool". If it is cool, if it makes the story epic, then I allow it.


Oh since I am already posting, totally unrelated question about surprises. "I run straight ahead until I see enemys" because our druid got bored. Everybody runs after him. He runs into a tunnel with 6 Goblins in it with his friends around 10 feet behind him. All roll Initiative, Goblins second to last, almost all of them dead before they act and druid gets no damage. I understood it that way that if anything both sides would be surprised (or none) and everything acts like a normal fight. Is this correct?Or would they have heard him coming?I am a little confused because the group is quite bad at stealth or just eager to fight so they just run into stuff but i cant see the drawback.

Sorry for the confusing post, thank you :)
You are the judge. If you think that the enemy could have heard them coming, then give the enemy a surprise round. If you think that they were just as surprised, because they weren't paying attention, then nobody got a surprise. If your players were sharp, and found some sleeping Goblins, then the players get a surprise round, and maybe even find that the Goblins were unarmed because their swords were still standing against the wall.

[kamap]

RAW the spell does what it does no more no less.

The brush could start burning but the goblins would only start taking damage from that the next turn and then only for little damage that you can decide. The smoke could block line of sight for the goblin archers they then roll with disadvantage on attack rolls but same goes for the ranged attackers from the PC's and it gives the goblins a chance to move away take other positions without anyone noticing.
Picture this, you are engulfed in flames, does it matter that something around you starts burning does it add to the amount of fire or heat your engulfed in, no it doesn't. The extra damage isn't during his turn it could be on the goblin turn but that is for you as a GM to decide.

He can't enhance his breath doing it trough natural fire, the natural fire might spike higher but his breath won't become hotter nor reach further. It might be cool and add an advantage on some checks maybe even on the attack but no extra damage or reach or such.

The only druid spell that has anything to do with ice and an attack roll is ice knife if I recall correctly, thats not big or cold enough to freeze someone, its like throwing a sharp snowball that then explodes on impact, yes it will be cold on the point of impact and hurt but freezing someone solid or in place, nope.

You flash your cape while you dodge?
Ok why don't you throw me a performance check, if you succeed nice you flashed your cape and your dodge looked astonishing but thats all, no extra AC, its just a cool move.

You can grant them advantage or an inspiration die for these instances but mechanically they gain nothing.

I'd handle it by stating that it isn't in the rules and they can go look for themselves, if it aint in the spell description it doesn't do it.


For the second question: The enemies can hear the PC's comming and set up an ambush or run away. You are the storyteller, the game master, let you're NPC's have an advantage because of the loud approach of your PC's.

[Pelle]

Allowing creative actions from the players can be fun, and should be encouraged as long as everyone has fun. It sounds like these players are likely to abuse it though, so you can try to say you want to stick to the rules for now until you are more comfortable with freestyling.

I would say that you should try to use the existing rules as much as possible to arbitrate the creative requests, without giving too much extra. Just describe the effects based on what they want, without changing the mechanical rules. Remember the rules assume competent characters, so the default for every attack etc is already that the character do something smart, covered by the normal rolls. If they say they want to do something that seems especially clever for the situation, you can give advantage.



For example the Dragonborn uses his firebreath and asks if the brush starts burning so the goblins take extra damage and it blocks line of sight for their archers.

"Allright, if you roll high on the damage roll, that meant that the brush caught fire. The damage is already included in this high roll, no extra though." But if there is a lot of flammable materials in the affected area, it is not unreasonable that a fire might develop.


the druid uses his chill (frost spell something) and wants to freeze the enemy all together with a god roll


"Sorry, this frost spell doesn't allow for that, but maybe you will learn a better spell that does that when you level up later?" It's understable that they want to be powerful magic users, but in D&D that is represented by getting access to better spells as they level up, not rolling high.



or complain when the enemy is badly wounded but still fights and moves normal.


Yeah, that's silly, but it is how the abstraction with HP works, making it easy to use as a game. It's the same for their characters, though, do they want penalties themselves when they have taken damage? You should consider roleplaying the enemies they fight so that they might run away or surrender etc when they have taken substantial damage.



"I flash my cape in front of them so they can't see me while I dodge" to get enhanced AC seems kinda powerfull if you do it every time,


"That's great! Let's represent that mechanically with you taking the Dodge action (disadv. to attack you). If you don't spend the action on it, you are not doing it good enough to get a benefit"



same with creating a flaming barrier that at the same time blocks out all enemy archers.


Could be legit. Ask them how they do it. They might have spells, or light fires etc, but it should be reasonable to you. If there is no fuel, it's impossible, but if they have a lot of oil, furniture, trees etc, and take the time to prepare it, why not. If there is a great fire burning, that should be accounted for in the description of the situation; line of sight, damage and so on.


I understood it that way that if anything both sides would be surprised (or none) and everything acts like a normal fight. Is this correct?Or would they have heard him coming?I am a little confused because the group is quite bad at stealth or just eager to fight so they just run into stuff but i cant see the drawback.


Well, you decide. If you think the party made too much noice (by the rules they should have disadvantage on stealth if running), the goblins may have time to make an ambush, surprising the player characters. If you feel they wouldn't have time to react and do anything, normal fight is fine. Both are reasonable, depending on the situation, which only you can judge. If you want to change their behaviour, go for the ambush...

[Segev]

Your players would probably love Exalted (2E or 3e); what they're doing there would fit perfectly into its Stunt mechanics.

Allowing your players to be creative is good. Most fire attacks do, in fact, light flammable things on fire, and there are rules for how environmental fire works.

I'd go ahead and reward things like the cloak flourish, et al, with Advantage on the rolls. If your players are getting Advantage too often, you can cut back on it, but...frankly, if they're getting Advantage because they're doing interesting things that interact with the environment and world, that makes your game better.

Remember that this is a game, and the goal is to have fun. And keep in mind that anything your players' PCs can do, your NPCs can, as well.

[Bloodcloud]

Well, the cape flourish thing, is he taking the dodge action? Wouldn't hurt that much to give him a little extra on that, especially on a good perform/acrobatic check I guess. He's already spending his action then. Especially if he's keeping a free hand for this. With these he gets an opportunity cost. Down the line, think of introducing a magic cape for it, he'd probably like that.

On the ice thing, well in 3.5 you had to confirm critical rolls, and we ruled that ridiculously overpowered things happened if you rolled two 20s in a row (more than 2 in a row never happened, but it would have kept getting increasingly ridiculous). Could use something like that.

On flames propagating... If you played some Far cry, you might know it can be both a blessing and a curse. I'd go for it, add flamable stuff in your world, but it goes both way...

[ImproperJustice]

Savage Worlds has a mechanic called tricks, where the actions your players are describing would come into play:
Usually it’s a contest between the two PCs based on Smarts (Intelligence or Wisom) here or Agility (Dexterity).

In SW, sucess means the target is more succeptable to the next attack (by the trickster or an ally), and in extreme cases (in SW beating the target by four or more (like 5-8or more in D&D), where the target could be Shaken (like stunned in D&D, but two stun results in SW causes wounds or damage).


As a GM, you could make opposed rolls and then grant your PCs advantage or insight dice when they succeed.
You could use the Deception or Sleight of Hand proficiency opposed by Insight come in to play as well.

Creative actions usually make the game more enjoyable for everyone, and I would encourage you to let your players run with it until it starts to get silly.

[Demonslayer666]

Award their creativity from time to time, either with additional effects, advantage for them or disadvantage for the opponent, or you can also give out inspiration.

But you need to limit it so it's not abusive. It should only happen occasionally. For example, I would not give anything extra for a cape flourish while dodging, but I would include it in the description of how the opponent is distracted.

If the druid ran ahead at full speed I'd give the goblins a good chance to hear him coming, maybe advantage on initiative for them, and/or a chance to surprise the druid. It would depend on what the goblins were doing, and how much noise I thought the druid would make while running. In my opinion, the goblins would have to be very distracted to have the initiative be a normal roll.

[GlenSmash!]

Players descripe their approach and gaol to a scenario, and the DM declares if that approach was sucessful, fails, or uncertain. If uncertain they use rolls to resolve the uncertainty.


"I flash my cape in front of them so they can't see me while I dodge" to get enhanced AC seems kinda powerfull if you do it every time, same with creating a flaming barrier that at the same time blocks out all enemy archers.


In this example the player described their approach and a decent goal too. It's a good creative move by the player. So you decide if it should succeed, fail, or is uncertain.

If it were me it sounds pretty uncertain.

Based on what they described I would call for a Dex (Sleight of Hand) Check. If the opponent eyes are hard to reach like an ogre, I might have it at disadvantage. Too far to reach like a Giant, and the approach would just fail.

If the players roll succeeds I would give the foe disadvantage on it's perception check against the players stealth check to determine if the player's character is hidden from the foe.

[Ganymede]

I'm not the biggest fan of ad hoc improvised actions, especially if they are meant to simply be a better version of a normal action.

I do love rewarding especially noteworthy flourishes with inspiration dice, tho, and I have no issue with using abilities to modify the battlefield.

[DMThac0]

I'm not the biggest fan of ad hoc improvised actions

Ad lib, ad hoc is the antonym of improvised actions. Sorry, but I just learned I'd been using it improperly myself.

---

As to the OP, creating a consistent, easy to understand, response to actions is a must for players. For players who wish to go beyond the description of actions and start giving them more "flavor" or "personality" there is a compromise that needs to be had.

A good idea, such as using the breath weapon to set fire to the surrounding area, you can allow since it makes sense, and other fire based attacks do similar. However, it would be a brush fire, which could spread, and set fire to the country side. A fire that is able to obscure, or make sight difficult, would need to be fairly large.

For the Druid not being able to freeze a creature solid, remind them that whatever happens to the monsters can happen to them. If you allow the player to freeze a creature solid with a simple, low level, and without a save spell, then when that spell is used on him, or the other players, they would receive the same effects.

[Ganymede]

Ad lib, ad hoc is the antonym of improvised actions. Sorry, but I just learned I'd been using it improperly myself.


Irregardless of your all-of-the-sudden comment here, that is a whole nother topic.

[Darth Ultron]

Well, you need to make a simple decision:

1.Will you play the game by the rules in the book?
2.Will you play the game by the suggestions in the book?

It's simple, but very important.

If you go by #1, then what it says on the page happens. Period. So, zero creative stuff, as sorry it's not in the rules. D&D does not have 'creativity' rules.

If you got by #2, then, well anything can happen any time and anywhere and you have to totally give up the concept of rules.

This type of thing could be a group vote. Just make everything clear to everyone.

#1 is no 'creativity' and is just using the rules. What happens is what the rules say. For everyone (sort of).

#2 Anything can happen. Players can try 'creative ' things...but note also can the DM. This means the DM can do things and the players can never, ever, ever say ''that is not in the rules'' or ''what page is that on".

Granted, a DM does already have that power....but many players (and player DMs) don't think so.

Note, if you go for number two, you as the DM want to be the one making the creativity rules.

You can:

1.Just make up stuff for each time.
2.Come up with some broad rulings to go by
3.Make some set homebrew actions

Generally a mix of 2 and 3 work the best.

Like to just say 'the dragonborn can shoot a big breath that lights things on fire and makes a lot of smoke for 1-2 rounds, by taking 1 point of constitution damage" works

You might also just want to add the effect as a special ability or feat.

[Segev]

I disagree with Darth Ultron's binary dichotomy. The rules in the book are DESIGNED to be flexible in 5e. Yes, I strongly suggest seeing if the RAW already support just making certain acts of creative description act as fluff, for which you may or may not grant Advantage or Inspiration depending on how awesome you find it. If something seems reasonable and fun to you that isn't in the rules, letting it happen once can work; just be willing to reexamine it for the future and be open, OOC, with your players about whether that's how it'll work in the future, once you make up your mind.

[GlenSmash!]

I disagree with Darth Ultron's binary dichotomy. The rules in the book are DESIGNED to be flexible in 5e. Yes, I strongly suggest seeing if the RAW already support just making certain acts of creative description act as fluff, for which you may or may not grant Advantage or Inspiration depending on how awesome you find it. If something seems reasonable and fun to you that isn't in the rules, letting it happen once can work; just be willing to reexamine it for the future and be open, OOC, with your players about whether that's how it'll work in the future, once you make up your mind.

Indeed. This is actually covered in the very beginning of the rules themselves (emphasis added):


How to Play
The play of the Dungeons & Dragons game unfolds
according to this basic pattern.
1. The DM describes the environment. The DM
tells the players where their adventurers are and what’s
around them, presenting the basic scope of options that
present themselves (how many doors lead out of a room,
what’s on a table, who’s in the tavern, and so on).
2. The players describe what they want to do.
Sometimes one player speaks for the whole party, saying,
“We’ll take the east door,” for example. Other times,
different adventurers do different things: one adventurer
might search a treasure chest while a second examines
an esoteric symbol engraved on a wall and a third keeps
watch for monsters. The players don’t need to take turns,
but the DM listens to every player and decides how to
resolve those actions.
Sometimes, resolving a task is easy. If an adventurer
wants to walk across a room and open a door, the DM
might just say that the door opens and describe what lies
beyond. But the door might be locked, the floor might
hide a deadly trap, or some other circumstance might
make it challenging for an adventurer to complete a task.
In those cases, the DM decides what happens, often
relying on the roll of a die to determine the results of
an action.
3. The DM narrates the results of the adventurers’
actions. Describing the results often leads to another
decision point, which brings the flow of the game right
back to step 1.
This pattern holds whether the adventurers are
cautiously exploring a ruin, talking to a devious prince,
or locked in mortal combat against a mighty dragon.
In certain situations, particularly combat, the action is
more structured and the players (and DM) do take turns
choosing and resolving actions. But most of the time, play
is fluid and flexible, adapting to the circumstances of the
adventure.
Often the action of an adventure takes place in the
imagination of the players and DM, relying on the DM’s
verbal descriptions to set the scene. Some DMs like to
use music, art, or recorded sound effects to help set the
mood, and many players and DMs alike adopt different
voices for the various adventurers, monsters, and other
characters they play in the game. Sometimes, a DM
might lay out a map and use tokens or miniature figures
to represent each creature involved in a scene to help the
players keep track of where everyone is.

So the DM by the rules can say whether or not a Dragonborn breath weapon lights grass on fire. regardless of what the Dragonborn entry in the PHB says or doesn't say.

[Waterdeep Merch]

If someone comes up with a clever idea for handling something that trivializes an aspect of the game, I'll let it work- once. Then I let the player know that I won't be ruling in favor of it again, don't ask about it.

That's probably what I'd do in your shoes, too. If your players can think of a neat way to roleplay doing something and you're okay making up rules on the fly, encourage it. Just don't let them find something you're okay with and then abuse it so much that it wrecks game balance.

Though in the case of the cape, that's just sort of what you'd be expecting them to do anyway. Your AC already represents how well you do stuff like that, there's no bonus for describing precisely how your AC manages to be good/bad. Though if they like that idea a lot, maybe give them a modified Cloak of Protection that, for roleplaying purposes, functions in the way they're describing?

[GlenSmash!]

Oh since I am already posting, totally unrelated question about surprises. "I run straight ahead until I see enemys" because our druid got bored. Everybody runs after him. He runs into a tunnel with 6 Goblins in it with his friends around 10 feet behind him. All roll Initiative, Goblins second to last, almost all of them dead before they act and druid gets no damage. I understood it that way that if anything both sides would be surprised (or none) and everything acts like a normal fight. Is this correct?Or would they have heard him coming?I am a little confused because the group is quite bad at stealth or just eager to fight so they just run into stuff but i cant see the drawback.

Unless the druid was in a particularly stealth wildshape form, I likely would have ruled that the sound of the headlong charge alerted the goblins to the party's presence and they got surprise on the encounter.

But I admit there are a lot of factors in this. How long did the druid charge for? What were the goblins doing in the first place. Alert sentry duty? Sleeping?

Any number of factors effects outcome. Weighing and balancing that is all part of the thankless job of DM :smallbiggrin:

[sithlordnergal]

Heh, allow the flammable things. In fact, I encourage the use of things catching on fire. My only suggestion, just remember how fast things can catch and spread. While moisture and fuel can change how quickly a fire spreads, your average fire can fully engulf a two-story house within 5 minutes. A wildfire can move 6.7 miles per hour in forests, and 14 mph in a grassland.

[GlenSmash!]

A wildfire can move 6.7 miles per hour in forests, and 14 mph in a grassland.

How far are is that going in 6 seconds?

10ish to 20ish feet by my calculations, but I'm no math wiz.

[JackPhoenix]

How far are is that going in 6 seconds?

10ish to 20ish feet by my calculations, but I'm no math wiz.

Not bothering with non-metric units, but based on PC movement speed, 60-140 feet.

[MaxWilson]

"I flash my cape in front of them so they can't see me while I dodge" to get enhanced AC seems kinda powerfull if you do it every time, same with creating a flaming barrier that at the same time blocks out all enemy archers.

How do you guys handle something like that?

I use the Rule of Yes, which is that the first time you try something crazy and creative, it just works pretty much the way you'd expect, subject to DM veto. The second time someone tries the same stunt, the DM will stop and come up with rules for it.

You want to beat a goblin to death with the body of his pet wolf? Rule of Yes says you can get your full, normal 2d6 maul-like damage, once. You might get it more than that but the DM would have to pause and think long enough to come up with rules for improvised weapons (replacing the PHB improvised weapon rules, which would only grant 1d4). In practice players haven't abused it and usually only do the cool thing once, and try to come up with a new cool thing next time.

In the case you're citing, I could see granting a Dexterity/Sleight of Hand opposed check on a reaction to make a given attack miss. That's what would happen on the initial Rule of Yes application. On second and subsequent attempts I'd have to come up with a balanced rule which e.g. requires a feat, or imposes some kind of other penalty if you don't have a feat (e.g. all of your own attacks this round have disadvantage because you're busy flashing your cloak).

Anyway, the important point is setting the expectation at the metagame level that "just because it works this time does not set a precedent allowing you to use this same trick every time." Once you've done that and the players have accepted it, improvising rulings becomes very easy.

[Darth Ultron]

I disagree with Darth Ultron's binary dichotomy. The rules in the book are DESIGNED to be flexible in 5e.

It is one of the things that makes 5E such a good version of D&D.

For the record, in case it was not clear, I am an 'Anything Goes' type DM. With the things in the books only thought of as suggestions.

Though I do like to have a basic framework to go off of, and don't just ''improv'' stuff out of thin air. For example I use the 2E rules of knockdown, collateral damage, environmental effects, system shocks and loss of sanity. I like such effects, and so do most of my players. So they and more are in my houserules.

I find it to be too much of a problem to just do things ''at random" for "Fun". Like on Monday the DM says "oh your fire breath makes so much smoke...for no reason", then come Firday on a whim the DM is like "nope, no smoke from your fire breath...for no reason". It's far better to pick one and stick with it.