Angels in the Blood War

[Millstone85]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dd/Chess_for_Three_-_Hexagonal_Board.jpg/400px-Chess_for_Three_-_Hexagonal_Board.jpg
In time, [Zariel] became frustrated that she and the other angels
were forced to remain spectators while the demons and devils battled.
The hosts of Mount Celestia, she believed, could descend upon Avernus
en masse and wipe both hordes of evil from the cosmos if they so desired.
(MToF p10)

On its own, the story of Zariel's fall from grace is a fine one. She who fights monsters, yada yada. However, that angels would not dare approach the Lower Planes makes for a very depressing setting. I would change it so angels did take a shot at Avernus, not the first nor the last, and Zariel refused to hear the call for retreat. Also, here are some of my musings on bringing angels into the Blood War.

Complex Loyalties

The MM entry for angels has some potentially conflicting elements:
* Angels are formed from the astral essence of benevolent gods and [...] act out the will of their gods with tireless devotion.
* Even chaotic good deities command lawful good angels, knowing that the angels' dedication to order best allows them to fulfill divine commands.
* However, an angel is incapable of following commands that stray from the path of law and good. Further emphasized in VGtM and MToF, which link them to Mount Celestia.

So angelic hosts could march from Celestia in the name of all the Upper Planes, provided the good-aligned gods give them the green light.

Asymmetrical Ressources

Angels, devils and demons have different ways of replenishing their troups. Angels are created by gods, who run on faith. Devils are made from damned souls and fallen celestials. Demons spontaneously form in the Abyss, where most are torn apart by their own kin before they can get stronger.

Other Celestials

Among the few celestials in 5e so far, I think only two would be serious backup for angels: empyreans and ki-rins.

Empyreans make for an interesting parallel with angels. They too are linked to the gods of the Upper Planes, though more children than creatures, and are presumably chaotic good regardless of where their parents lie on that axis. They also tend to become evil after venturing to the Lower Planes, which again is something I would downplay.

Ki-rins could make kick-ass mounts for angels. A deva would look like a dragon rider, while a planetar or a solar would make for a giant horseman. One problem: planetars fly as fast as ki-rins, while solars are actually faster. Ki-rins can hover, though.

Shavarathing the Outlands

The Concordant Opposition of the Outlands might be simultaneously my most and least favorite of the Outer Planes.

"Given the fact that you can ride a horse in the Outlands from a heaven to a hell [...] The Outlands is the closest the Outer Planes come to being like a world on the Material Plane" (DMG p67). This is awesome. And yes, technically, you would be riding from a heavenly gate-town to a hellish one, but eh close enough.

What I don't like is how "it isn't unusual to see strange pairings, such as a celestial and a fiend arguing in a tavern while sharing a fine bottle of wine". Uh, nope. Or rather, I would keep that to the city of Sigil, atop the Spire at the center of the Outlands, under the rule of the Lady of Pain.

My version of the Outlands would look like Eberron's Shavarath, with armies of angels, devils and demons locked in a Mexican standoff.

[Naanomi]

Traditionally...

Celestials stay out of the Blood war directly, though a few do try to ‘nudge things’ indirectly for various reasons (mostly to keep things going); although many celestials have fallen doing so

Shortly after the war of Law and Chaos, when the Blood War was new, Celestials mounted forces trying to take advantage and wipe out the fiends once and for all... their presence made the Blood War stop (one of only three times it ever has since beginning) and fiends temporarily united to stomp the celestial forces and chase them back to the Upper Planes; doing irreparable damage in the process (especially to the Eladrin of Arboria). Since then the celestials have played defense and focused on keeping the Astral and Prime as fiend-free as possible while staying out of the Lower Planes themselves

[Tanarii]

The problem is that if the Angels get heavily involved, they could easily turn both sides against them for the duration. Better to be subtle about it. Asmodeus might have a point about his Devils being the only things keeping the Demons out of the planes in general, but not the way he believes. It might just be that the Demons care the most about a competing evil. Give them a target they care more about and you might unleash true horror and destruction on the planes.

[Kane0]

The Angelic host would have plenty to do in the blood war, even if they arent waging war on the scale that the fiends are.
Indirect involvement is their thing, though there is always the possibility of new fronts opening up that the angels may want to quell to keep the war as contained as possible.
I would imagine Angels make quite a few assassinations and surgical strikes too, in order to straighten out any advantage one faction might have over the other.

[Naanomi]

The Angelic host would have plenty to do in the blood war, even if they arent waging war on the scale that the fiends are.
Indirect involvement is their thing, though there is always the possibility of new fronts opening up that the angels may want to quell to keep the war as contained as possible.
I would imagine Angels make quite a few assassinations and surgical strikes too, in order to straighten out any advantage one faction might have over the other.
None of the established types of celestials, even the chaotic ones, are (as a race) prone to targetted assassinations. Rilmani do that sort of thing though

[Unoriginal]

On its own, the story of Zariel's fall from grace is a fine one. She who fights monsters, yada yada. However, that angels would not dare approach the Lower Planes makes for a very depressing setting.

Why?

Why would the Angels joining an evil vs evil conflict be less depressing?




I would change it so angels did take a shot at Avernus, not the first nor the last, and Zariel refused to hear the call for retreat.

Why?

The angels have *no* reason to take a shot at Avernus, and that wouldn't justify Zariel becoming evil.




So angelic hosts could march from Celestia in the name of all the Upper Planes, provided the good-aligned gods give them the green light.

They could, and they do, if they have a reason.



Asymmetrical Ressources
Angels, devils and demons have different ways of replenishing their troups. Angels are created by gods, who run on faith. Devils are made from damned souls and fallen celestials. Demons spontaneously form in the Abyss, where most are torn apart by their own kin before they can get stronger.

True, but what's your point?


They also tend to become evil after venturing to the Lower Planes, which again is something I would downplay.

Why?

What would downplaying the fact that the Lower Planes are evil and corrupting be a good thing?

Plenty of Empyreans go to the Lower Planes and aren't corrupted, that being said.




Ki-rins could make kick-ass mounts for angels. A deva would look like a dragon rider, while a planetar or a solar would make for a giant horseman. One problem: planetars fly as fast as ki-rins, while solars are actually faster. Ki-rins can hover, though.

Strategically speaking, the Ki-rins would be better used as a separate asset rather than as mounts. They pack a lot of magic power and can strike differently than the deva.



What I don't like is how "it isn't unusual to see strange pairings, such as a celestial and a fiend arguing in a tavern while sharing a fine bottle of wine". Uh, nope. Or rather, I would keep that to the city of Sigil, atop the Spire at the center of the Outlands, under the rule of the Lady of Pain.

Why?

The Outlands are the place where the planar powers are relatively balanced. Fiends and Celestial arguing in a tavern doesn't mean they're friends or anything, just that if they start **** everything will blow up, so they don't.



My version of the Outlands would look like Eberron's Shavarath, with armies of angels, devils and demons locked in a Mexican standoff.

Why?

The whole point of the war in the planes is that it's not a Mexica standoff or a cold war, but an active thing.

You'd be removing most of what makes the Outlands the Outlands.



The problem is that if the Angels get heavily involved, they could easily turn both sides against them for the duration. Better to be subtle about it. Asmodeus might have a point about his Devils being the only things keeping the Demons out of the planes in general, but not the way he believes. It might just be that the Demons care the most about a competing evil. Give them a target they care more about and you might unleash true horror and destruction on the planes.

According to the Mordenkainen's, one of the likely hypotheses is that Asmodeus is correct about Hell keeping the Demons' assaults out of the other planes, but like you said, not the way he believes, though for a different reason than you said: it's not that Demons care more bout a competing evil, it's just that if they attacked any target which wasn't as hated as the Nine Hells, EVERYONE would team up to destroy the Demons, and even the Demons realize it's a terrible idea.

[Naanomi]

Also, as a note, Gods are *not* allowed to directly interfere in the Blood War; those that have tried got drained of power and retreated. Sending angels in is probably OK, but there is good reason they tend to stay away from the conflict in general

[Unoriginal]

Also, as a note, Gods are *not* allowed to directly interfere in the Blood War; those that have tried got drained of power and retreated. Sending angels in is probably OK, but there is good reason they tend to stay away from the conflict in general

Well, Asmodeus and Tiamat can probably directly interfere, but that's a different thing.



Another important things to note is that in 5e, the Blood War is limited to Hell, around the Styx. The Demons normally cannot enter Hells any other way because of Asmodeus controlling all other planar accesses.

If the Angels wanted to participate, they'd have to go through the Styx and fight the fiends there before even being able to get to the Blood War.

[Naanomi]

Tiamat can kill demons that get on her doorstep; but otherwise doesn’t get involved really

Asmodeus... well... let’s just say that in past editions, he actively took steps to *avoid* becoming a God, and this is one of the reasons (also, lots of hints in 2e/3e era he wasn’t all that interested in actually winning the Blood War... until 4e had him suddenly win it by throwing infinite planes into eachother)

[Malifice]

I wouldve thought the Gods of Good keep Angels out of the war for a reason.

To stop a great many Angels falling to evil, and a great many more from dying.

As long as the forces of Hell are keeping the Abyss at bay, there is no reason for them to get involved at all.

[Unoriginal]

Tiamat can kill demons that get on her doorstep; but otherwise doesn’t get involved really

True.



Asmodeus... well... let’s just say that in past editions, he actively took steps to *avoid* becoming a God, and this is one of the reasons (also, lots of hints in 2e/3e era he wasn’t all that interested in actually winning the Blood War... until 4e had him suddenly win it by throwing infinite planes into eachother)

4e Asmodeus was pretty silly with how overpowered he was, IMO.

In 5e it makes sense for him to be a god, and gave him a reason to want to win the Blood War.

[Naanomi]

In 5e it makes sense for him to be a god, and gave him a reason to want to win the Blood War.
I freely admit it may be my nostalgia filter talking, but I don’t see him gaining much from being a God. He was already the leader of all Devilkind, an exemplar lord, unchallenged Lord of Nessus, and among the most influential creatures in all of the Planes

Becoming a God gave him a bit of physical and magical might (which he rarely uses); some security of a Divine Realm (pretty superfluous), and the ability to empower Clerics (which he did fine with Warlock pacts, and still largely does).

In return it made him beholden to worship (an unworshiped God is a rock in the Astral, regardless of what you were before ascending to divinity); and subject to the rules and powers that oversee the Gods (overpowers, some cosmic rules, vulnerability to some God-killing elder evils and similar things)

Doesn’t seem worth the trade off to me

[Unoriginal]

To be a god let you get power through worship, when the worshiper is alive, and then their souls after death.

Asmodeus get power from the cults of ALL the devils and Archdevils. If Dispater spends ressources starting a cult, maybe even spend his own power to make the leader a Warlock, and then use the cult for his scheme, it's still Asmodeus who get the power from their faith.

Basically, if the devils are shepherds who can make a profit when the sheep is slaughtered, Asmodeus is the one who get all the wool.

Also, even without getting into what exactly Big Devil uses his godly powers for, 5e godhood grants you quite a few fun perks, like being able to create Titans.

And even if he actually rarely uses his magical and physical might (which I kinda doubt but we have no evidence either way), I have to point out: a) it's not because you use something rarely than it's not useful, because being a god put Asmodeus far above all the people who could have a chance to steal his throne, and survival is rather important and b) being a god also gives you a boost in cognitive-related matters. In previous edition, gods were aware of you if you said their name or just did an activity related to their Domains for the more powerful, or even could be aware of anything happening in an area for weeks after the name was said/activity was done. It's not clear if 5e deities have that power, but at least there is a precedent.

It also helps with fooling people into worshiping him under a false name.

And last but not least, while Warlocks are useful, making Clerics mean that you have an agent capable of Divine Intervention in the world (assuming the Cleric got enough power, of course).

Divine Intervention is no joke, it can make incredible things happen if the Cleric prays long enough until it works. And Asmodeus is the only one in Hell (except Tiamat) who can do it.

[Millstone85]

Why would the Angels joining an evil vs evil conflict be less depressing?A recurring theme here is that the only thing keeping evil in check is more evil.

Nevermind devils and demons somehow managing to unite against celestials. The implication seems to be that either group of fiends would easily take over the planes after defeating the other group.

And in something of a Droste effect, demons themselves would easily conquer the Nine Hells if they weren't so busy with their own free-for-all in the Abyss.

Do you not recognize this as a very grim premise?


The angels have *no* reason to take a shot at AvernusHeaven has no reason to march against Hell? Holy saviors and avengers have no reason to attack the biggest engine of corruption in the multiverse?


True, but what's your point?Just listing interesting aspects of the forces involved.


What would downplaying the fact that the Lower Planes are evil and corrupting be a good thing?How about emphasizing the celestial ability to resist corruption? Or is their holy light made of naive innocence?


The whole point of the war in the planes is that it's not a Mexica standoff or a cold war, but an active thing.My bad here. I didn't mean to imply they would just be starring at each other.

Which seems to be exactly what they do in the current Outlands. What are they discussing in those tarverns, exactly?

[Unoriginal]

A recurring theme here is that the only thing keeping evil in check is more evil.

Nevermind devils and demons somehow managing to unite against celestials. The implication seems to be that either group of fiends would easily take over the planes after defeating the other group.

And in something of a Droste effect, demons themselves would easily conquer the Nine Hells if they weren't so busy with their own free-for-all in the Abyss.

Do you not recognize this as a very grim premise?

Sorry, I don't see how "Evil is ineffectual and self-defeating" is grim. It's a rather optimistic premise, actually.

And it's not like the Celestials are doing nothing. They ARE keeping evil in check. They just don't do it by fighting in an eternal war whose main point is that it weaken both sides and keep them busy.



The implication seems to be that either group of fiends would easily take over the planes after defeating the other group.

The part of the implication you're missing is that either group would take over the planes after defeating the other group IF they can get the ressources they need from plundering their fallen adversaries.

Hell with the infinite forces of the Abyss? Win.

The Abyss with the organisation of Hell? Win.

Thing is, neither side can ACTUALLY get those things without destroying themselves. Because the Abyss and infinie soldiers would be too chaotic to handle even for 10 Asmodei, and the Abyss getting organisation would destroy the Abyss.



Heaven has no reason to march against Hell? Holy saviors and avengers have no reason to attack the biggest engine of corruption in the multiverse?

Given that attacking will accomplish nothing, and that even if they win the best they can hope is now being forced to eternally fighting demons, which will bring all the planes into an all-out war, not to mention lay waste in the Material Plane because the planes are out of bound and augment dramatically the power of Chaos in the multiverse, yes, they have no reason to do that.

They're already taking action to stop the corruption and evil. When the Devils are in Hell, like the ones fighting the Blood War, they are not outside causing corruption and spreading vice




How about emphasizing the celestial ability to resist corruption? Or is their holy light made of naive innocence?


Keeping in mind that angels falling is an extremely rare thing, fiends are just as easily altered if they try spending time in the Upper Planes...



My bad here. I didn't mean to imply they would just be starring at each other.

Which seems to be exactly what they do in the current Outlands. What are they discussing in those tarverns, exactly?

They discuss whatever two enemies discuss when they're in a place where they can't fight. My point was that bringing the Blood War, active or not, in the Outlands, would diminish the Outlands's concept of being where the aligned planes are in balance.

-----------------------------------------------------

Basically, what I'm saying, Millstone85, and I mean no offense by that, is that you're looking at Zariel's example and saying "she was right, and angels should do that more often", to the point where you'd rather have her commit a different fault to justify her fall than accept that no, given how the setting work, she was wrong.

Now, having said that, you're free to change things however you want. It's your game and you should do what you like with it. I'm just saying that as far as my opinion is concerned, those changes to the setting aren't an improvement, and that they rather diminish the setting rather than elevating it.

5e has a theme that evil will never truly be defeated. But on the other hand, it also has the theme that it will never win either.

[Millstone85]

Basically, what I'm saying, Millstone85, and I mean no offense by that, is that you're looking at Zariel's example and saying "she was right, and angels should do that more often", to the point where you'd rather have her commit a different fault to justify her fall than accept that no, given how the setting work, she was wrong.I thought I had been upfront about that.

That Zariel was wrong, given how the setting works, led me to think about how hopeless the position of the celestials is in the setting. And I wanted to discuss how an alternate take on the setting could make it less hopeless. That's the idea, yes.

Now I will consider your reasons for seeing an optimistic premise where I see a pessimistic one.

[Naanomi]

And Asmodeus is the only one in Hell (except Tiamat) who can do it.I contest this point. We haven’t gotten much of a look at the specific inhabitants and layout of the Outer Planes, but there are uncountable (perhaps an infinite) number of Gods, most of which live in the Outer Planes. Even if 5e gets rid of the ‘God Street’ in Dis, there are definetly other Gods making their home in Baator. Kurtulmak and Sekolah definitely, probably Set and Zehir as well... Gargath, Innona... a host of Gods from homebrew worlds as well

And that is kind of the point. Being one of the nine Exemplar Lords (give or take) puts Asmodeus at a *much* more significant position and point of influence than just any old God. Souls of worshipers? He has an entire plane whose existence channeling souls into his coffers; and without the vulnerability those worshipers bring. He is safe in Avernus, but now as a God his worshipers can be targetted, he created a new weakness where none existed before... and he has enemies crafty and influential on the Prime enough to exploit it. A bit of power, some unique abilities... none of it matters when you are a barren rock drifting in the Astral after your cults and churches are destroyed

[SaintRidley]

To be a god let you get power through worship, when the worshiper is alive, and then their souls after death.

Asmodeus get power from the cults of ALL the devils and Archdevils. If Dispater spends ressources starting a cult, maybe even spend his own power to make the leader a Warlock, and then use the cult for his scheme, it's still Asmodeus who get the power from their faith.

Basically, if the devils are shepherds who can make a profit when the sheep is slaughtered, Asmodeus is the one who get all the wool.

He also had all this going without being a god.

[Unoriginal]

I contest this point. We haven’t gotten much of a look at the specific inhabitants and layout of the Outer Planes, but there are uncountable (perhaps an infinite) number of Gods, most of which live in the Outer Planes. Even if 5e gets rid of the ‘God Street’ in Dis, there are definetly other Gods making their home in Baator. Kurtulmak and Sekolah definitely, probably Set and Zehir as well... Gargath, Innona... a host of Gods from homebrew worlds as well

5e was pretty specific that Asmodeus is the only god in Hells aside from Tiamat. Or at least those two are the only two who roam around as gods.



And that is kind of the point. Being one of the nine Exemplar Lords (give or take) puts Asmodeus at a *much* more significant position and point of influence than just any old God. Souls of worshipers? He has an entire plane whose existence channeling souls into his coffers; and without the vulnerability those worshipers bring. He is safe in Avernus, but now as a God his worshipers can be targetted, he created a new weakness where none existed before... and he has enemies crafty and influential on the Prime enough to exploit it. A bit of power, some unique abilities... none of it matters when you are a barren rock drifting in the Astral after your cults and churches are destroyed

I contest that point. Asmodeus gets a percentage of the souls of the dead, but it's still only a percentage.

Being a god give him *more* power, and it's not "a bit". It also extend his sphere of influence and gives him access to things only gods have, which is a pretty boon when several of his adversaries are gods.

Meanwhile, for the weakness you keep bringing up, I reiterate: Asmodeus get the worship from ALL devil cult. As long as ANYONE, anywhere, is dedicated to any infernal power, knowingly or not, Asmodeus is safe.

That's rather harder to end up as a rock in the Astral that way.



He also had all this going without being a god.


No, this is entirely incorrect.

[Naanomi]

5e was pretty specific that Asmodeus is the only god in Hells aside from Tiamat. Or at least those two are the only two who roam around as gods.
In Volos they spell out Kurtulmak is there. We also know from 5e Lore that Sekolah still exists, as does Piscaethces (though this one may not count as a God anymore); with no evidence they have been booted from their traditional home. Asmodeus is powerful, but not strong enough to evict Set or the like from their Divine Realms. Do you have a citation for the idea that there are explicitly no other Gods in Baator?


Meanwhile, for the weakness you keep bringing up, I reiterate: Asmodeus get the worship from ALL devil cult. As long as ANYONE, anywhere, is dedicated to any infernal power, knowingly or not, Asmodeus is safe.
That isn’t the same, and won’t protect him. Kossuth gets ‘power’ from everyone who reveres flame, but the explicit relationship between worshiper and God is a different thing, and he would lose his divinity and he cast adrift in the Astral if his name were forgotten and his temples fell. Lolth is similar with being the patron of Drow... So to with Asmodeus: he can draw power from the activity of all Devils; but his specific worship is what sustains his divinity specifically

Edit: I’m not saying it would be easy, Asmodeus is deeply entrenched in the conciousness of many worlds... he would be harder to dislodge than almost any other God. But an immortal being with many foes has to take creating vulnerabilities in yourself seriously, even if they are remote ones.

And that leaves aside the other nonsense being a God subjects you to... being brought to ground by AO in the next time of troubles is something he needs to worry about as a God that just wasn’t a factor as an exemplar lord; or fears of being cut from worlds then erased by Pandorym

[SaintRidley]

No, this is entirely incorrect.

I'm pretty sure my copy of FCII says that Asmodeus gets power from all the devil and archdevil cults. Maybe yours is defective.

[Mystral]

Angels marching into the blood war generally has one of three different outcomes:

Best case, they gain a few victories, liberate a few souls and then retreat before drawing the full fiendish ire.
Medium case, they get slaughtered.
Worst case, they are corrupted and turn into the enemy.

The risk isn't worth the rewards.

[Naanomi]

Angels marching into the blood war generally has one of three different outcomes:

Best case, they gain a few victories, liberate a few souls and then retreat before drawing the full fiendish ire.
Medium case, they get slaughtered.
Worst case, they are corrupted and turn into the enemy.

The risk isn't worth the rewards.
Or, they get slaughtered and the fiends ride the victory wave into an invasion of the Upper Planes. Happened once, one of three times the Blood War has ever fully stopped since beginning

[Unoriginal]

I don't think Angels can even do the "liberate a few souls" part, at least not by attacking.

In 5e, most souls that arrives in Hell are directly thrown into the Styx and used as dough to make Lemures (and then higher or lower forms of Devils, depending on the kind of evil the soul did). Only a few get to stay in Hell as themselves, and those aren't likely to be close to the battlefield of Avernus.

[JoeJ]

If the angels stay completely out of the war, how will their totally green troops be able to defend the upper planes against a raiding party of experienced, battle hardened fiends?

[Unoriginal]

If the angels stay completely out of the war, how will their totally green troops be able to defend the upper planes against a raiding party of experienced, battle hardened fiends?

One: the angels don't have to defend the upper planes against raiding parties of Fiends. BECAUSE they stay out of the Blood War, and because neither the Devils nor the Demons can accomplish such a thing (or in the few cases when they can, the cost and consequences is just not worth it).

Two: Jesus ****ing Christ. Why are people acting as if the angels did nothing? There are other fights than the Blood War in the planes, other places to fight for, and the angels DO fight there.

Three: what kind of implying is that? Nations don't send their people into wars just to get battle experience.

Four: even ignoring how angels do fight and do get trainingand experience, angels don't need to go through transformations to get more powerful, like Devils and Demons do. If an angel is created with a +10 to sword attack rolls, they are just as good a sword user as a Devil who fought on Avernus until they got a promotion and a +10 to sword attack rolls. And both are as skilled as a Devil created from a powerful soul who immediately get a promotion upon getting into existence a d end up with a +10 to sword attack rolls.

[Vessyra]

Before reading this thread, I had also thought that it was depressing that the only reason good hasn't died is because evil is busy fighting each other. However, Unoriginal's points have swayed, and I now see it as quite optimistic, as evil will never win as it's to busy fighting itself.

And I also don't see why angels would fight in the blood war. Because they would do that to kill fiends, yes, but fiends are already killing each, right? Participating would just make fiends stop killing each other and start killing celestials.

That being said, this hypothetical situation involves a home-brew world, with it's own history. It might not be that the angels choose to fight, but rather that they had to fight because some demons and devils attack the upper planes, forcing the armies of Mount Celestia to fight back or avoid being overrun.

Summary of my opinion: I agree with Unoriginal on the Blood War in general, although I suppose home-brewing your world (which you're doing) can make it work.

[Millstone85]

Alright so, I slept on this, and now I think the cornerstone of my disagreement with Unoriginal is what MToF calls "the devilish point of view" and "the demonic point of view".

In the the devilish point of view, celestials focusing their efforts on making the Material, and other non-lower planes, a better place is also a doomed endeavor. What happens then is that the soul-starved Nine Hells can no longer hold back the tide of the Abyss, which doesn't need souls to keep birthing demons by the thousand. And if devils can't stop them, no one else will, for only they are regimented and ruthless enough to meet demons on any battlefield. If celestials want to protect the multiverse, they have to make a deal with Asmodeus, if only by limiting their effectiveness in saving souls from damnation. The impression I got from D&D in general is that none of that can simply be dismissed as obvious fiendish propaganda. The Abyss is really hyped up as this reality-ending entity that maybe even the Far Realm would find creepy.

In the demonic point of view, or rather the demonologist's point of view, the real reason the Nine Hells are the main target of the Abyss is not that the Styx goes there, but rather that demons can attack devils without the rest of the Great Wheel coming to their aid. This already downplays the threat of the Abyss and/or present celestials as serious opponents, at least when allied with devils, elementals, fey and more. This is clearly Unoriginal's favored interpretation, and so my thread is trying to fix what isn't broken.

[Unoriginal]

Alright so, I slept on this, and now I think the cornerstone of my disagreement with Unoriginal is what MToF calls "the devilish point of view" and "the demonic point of view".

In the the devilish point of view, celestials focusing their efforts on making the Material, and other non-lower planes, a better place is also a doomed endeavor. What happens then is that the soul-starved Nine Hells can no longer hold back the tide of the Abyss, which doesn't need souls to keep birthing demons by the thousand. And if devils can't stop them, no one else will, for only they are regimented and ruthless enough to meet demons on any battlefield. If celestials want to protect the multiverse, they have to make a deal with Asmodeus, if only by limiting their effectiveness in saving souls from damnation. The impression I got from D&D in general is that none of that can simply be dismissed as obvious fiendish propaganda. The Abyss is really hyped up as this reality-ending entity that maybe even the Far Realm would find creepy.

In the demonic point of view, or rather the demonologist's point of view, the real reason the Nine Hells are the main target of the Abyss is not that the Styx goes there, but rather that demons can attack devils without the rest of the Great Wheel coming to their aid. This already downplays the threat of the Abyss and/or present celestials as serious opponents, at least when allied with devils, elementals, fey and more. This is clearly Unoriginal's favored interpretation, and so my thread is trying to fix what isn't broken.

Note that I'm not saying that the Devil's point of view is devoid of merit. It's just neither POV is 100% true.

Without the Nine Hells, the Demons would attack the other planes and while the other planes can take it, it'd make them considerably worse to live in. But all the stuff about how only the devils are regimented and ruthless enough to fight the demons, or how things would be much better if Hell's efforts to get souls were not hindered? That's all bs and vainglory.

The Abyss is a tough cookie, but time and time again even the Material Plane's mortals have proven it could handle demons, and so can the other planes. And no matter the infernal rhetoric, it is a fact that the abyssal forces never managed to go beyond the second layer of Hell, which doesn't work with the idea that the Abyss are actually a reality-ending force unless the Devils are here.

Devils interpret that as "only we can keep the Abyss at bay, and it proves that us ruling over the cosmos with a tyrannical grip would be for the best, while it's quite clear (and exemplified by the demonologist's POV) that the other plans CAN keep the Abyss if the best they can do is more or less a draw in the first layer's battlefield. Devils are falling into the classing mental dissonance trap of trying to present their enemies both as that overpowering, terrifying adversaries and as a bunch of weaklings who are no match for the great troops of X, like propaganda often do.

It's just that Hell is a convenient target thanks to the Styx making traveling there possible (an advantage the demons would not have if they tried to invade other planes) and thanks to Hell being both hated enough no one mind if it's attack AND still tough enough to give a good fight.

So to summarize: yes, things would be worse for the rest of the universe if the Evil forces weren't fighting each others, but on the other hand the Devils are just arrogant and biased when they imagine themselves as the last, best hope for peace, and it's just a justification for how they want to take over the Great Wheel, extinguish freedom, and inflicting horrible harm to everything.

[Naanomi]

And even though the book emphasized how easy it is to get to Baator as the primary reason for the Blood War, there are lots of other factors at play as well... Ancient echos of the cosmologically powerful War of Law and Chaos, the personal emnities and grudges powerful demons and devils have garnered against eachother, the powerful (Lawful) pressure of habit and tradition keeping devils invested, devils keeping Celestials away by ‘justifying’ their place in the cosmos fighting demons, Asmodeus using eternal war as a way to keep pressure on the other Archdevils to prevent their scheming against him, whole classes of demons and devils created exclusively to fight for this specific conflict... and active forces intent on keeping it going (Yugoloth looking to keep the profits flowing, Night Hags looking to maintain the market for the soul trade... probably some sneakier celestials and possibly rilmani and other balance keepers as well)... it has a lot of momentum keeping it maintained for the forseeable future.

[JoeJ]

One: the angels don't have to defend the upper planes against raiding parties of Fiends. BECAUSE they stay out of the Blood War, and because neither the Devils nor the Demons can accomplish such a thing (or in the few cases when they can, the cost and consequences is just not worth it).

Is there something particular to 5e that says fiends no longer attack the upper planes? Because in previous editions they did with some regularity.


Three: what kind of implying is that? Nations don't send their people into wars just to get battle experience.

Maybe not just to get experience, but that is usually counted as one of the benefits of interfering in a war that doesn't directly affect the sending nation, whether they're being sent under their own flag or as mercenaries and "volunteers."


Four: even ignoring how angels do fight and do get trainingand experience, angels don't need to go through transformations to get more powerful, like Devils and Demons do. If an angel is created with a +10 to sword attack rolls, they are just as good a sword user as a Devil who fought on Avernus until they got a promotion and a +10 to sword attack rolls. And both are as skilled as a Devil created from a powerful soul who immediately get a promotion upon getting into existence a d end up with a +10 to sword attack rolls.

Power is not the point. Gaining battle experience is about developing tactical skill, gaining knowledge of the enemy, and becoming used to the hardships of war.

[Malifice]

Before reading this thread, I had also thought that it was depressing that the only reason good hasn't died is because evil is busy fighting each other. However, Unoriginal's points have swayed, and I now see it as quite optimistic, as evil will never win as it's to busy fighting itself.

And getting back to the OPs original point, this is something that Zariel couldnt see and what contributed to her fall.

[Naanomi]

Is there something particular to 5e that says fiends no longer attack the upper planes? Because in previous editions they did with some regularity.
While individual and small (relatively) groups may go up and bother the upper planes directly, even in previous editions the number of big incursion efforts was small enough that each was notable.

The Prime and (more rarely) the Outlands are the battlefields of Good and Evil. When Law and Chaos fight, it touches every corner of the Cosmology; but Good/Evil is much more Mortal/Prime focused

[Unoriginal]

Is there something particular to 5e that says fiends no longer attack the upper planes? Because in previous editions they did with some regularity.

Aside from the fact planar travel is hard (especially when the entity controlling the plane is against you)?

Devils: "Well, we could do it, even if it is difficult, but we are currently kept occupied by fighting the demonic hordes."

Yugoloths: "It's high difficulty stuff, everything is guarded, and the cost is rarely worth the reward. We could do it for a huge pile of money, though. But we can do anything for a huge pile of money."

Demons: "Attacking the Upper Planes in any important capacity would result in a Wheel-wide socio-politico-military retaliation of every dimensional hierarchs uniting against the abyssal efforts, granting Asmodeus one of his dearest wish... I mean DEMON GREATEST! DEMON SMASHES!"

Succubi/Incubi, Hags, and other miscellanious fiends: "Ahahahaha... oh, you were serious. Well, I hope you have a big wallet, because I'm laughing harder and it's at your expense."



Maybe not just to get experience, but that is usually counted as one of the benefits of interfering in a war that doesn't directly affect the sending nation, whether they're being sent under their own flag or as mercenaries and "volunteers."

Losing all your troops or provoking a massive retaliation are deterant for those who want to do that, though.




Power is not the point. Gaining battle experience is about developing tactical skill, gaining knowledge of the enemy, and becoming used to the hardships of war.

Well aside from the fact angels can be created with those things ex nihilo, they have enough conflicts to do that without getting involved in the Blood War.

[Millstone85]

Without the Nine Hells, the Demons would attack the other planes and while the other planes can take it, it'd make them considerably worse to live in. But all the stuff about how only the devils are regimented and ruthless enough to fight the demons, or how things would be much better if Hell's efforts to get souls were not hindered? That's all bs and vainglory.Alright, you are changing my mind.

I still think that if the celestials are letting devils and demons be each other's problem in the Lower Planes, while focusing their efforts on improving the Material, then they have to prepare themselves for the inevitable onslaught of demons once the Nine Hells have become the One Hell and a Half. But that doomsday clock hasn't struck its first hour yet, unless there used to be thirteen, and making the Material a better place already means making it a stronger place, so it adds up.

Do you think celestials would have any dealings with the yugoloths? To keep intels on the Blood War or such?

[Naanomi]

Do you think celestials would have any dealings with the yugoloths? To keep intels on the Blood War or such?
Angels? No... but some other good aligned celestials might. A few even meddle indirectly or through mortal agents when they think they can get away with it... but more than one Celestial has fallen trying and getting pulled into the dirty politics of it

[Unoriginal]

Alright, you are changing my mind.

Thank you.



I still think that if the celestials are letting devils and demons be each other's problem in the Lower Planes, while focusing their efforts on improving the Material, then they have to prepare themselves for the inevitable onslaught of demons once the Nine Hells have become the One Hell and a Half. But that doomsday clock hasn't struck its first hour yet, unless there used to be thirteen, and making the Material a better place already means making it a stronger place, so it adds up.

Well, that's still rather pessimistic. The Blood War is one of the things in the D&D universe that's nearly eternal, and despite Mordenkainen's opinion that the "balance" must be maintained by agents, all indicates that it's self-maintaining.

Far, far in the future, when the Illithids will watch entropy consume the Material Plane at the light of long-dead stars, the Blood War will still rage.



Do you think celestials would have any dealings with the yugoloths? To keep intels on the Blood War or such?

Sure. That's what those taverns in the Outlands are for, too.

Though obviously no dealing that would involve compromising their morals.

[JoeJ]

Aside from the fact planar travel is hard (especially when the entity controlling the plane is against you)?

Where does it say that it's hard? Portals still exist, and the Infinite Staircase, and Yggdrasil. I haven't seen anything indicating that plane travel is harder or less common than it was back in 2e/Planescape.


Losing all your troops or provoking a massive retaliation are deterant for those who want to do that, though.

Again, what changed in 5e to justify this claim about what would happen?


Well aside from the fact angels can be created with those things ex nihilo, they have enough conflicts to do that without getting involved in the Blood War.

Nothing in MM says that angels are or can be created with experience.

[Naanomi]

Where does it say that it's hard? Portals still exist, and the Infinite Staircase, and Yggdrasil. I haven't seen anything indicating that plane travel is harder or less common than it was back in 2e/Planescape.
Neither is a good conduit for an army of that kind. The infinite staircase is hard to navigate, and too dominated by Lilliends (celestials). The world tree is a bit better, but the Norse pantheon is possessive of the above-ground parts, and you probably don’t want to challenge them by marching an army the place (and it is pretty chaotically aligned overall, so probably only viable for demons anyways)

Gates (natural or artificial) and the Outlands are still probably the preferred options; as they were in 2e

[MeeposFire]

I am not seeing the point in having the Celestials fighting in the Blood War. The Celestial forces have not been shown to be strong enough to defeat both the demons and devils and if they are strong enough to beat one they would be vulnerable to the remaining faction as they would be more depleted and the other would be fresh. What is the point of changing this status quo if you cannot create a better situation by direct intervention? It is best to have your forces be fresh and go in force to fight in smaller engagements that can make a bigger difference in service to others. While the Blood War rages as is the devils and demons have much of their energies devoted to fighting each other rather being able to devote all of their energy to hurting mortals or the celestial realms.

What do you expect a more direct intervention to accomplish? Unless you think the celestials can beat both (either one at a time or at the same time) you are really looking at just making a third front in the war where celestials throw their lives away just to pretend they are making a difference. While throwing those lives away that means that they will have a harder time trying to do the good they already do.

I do think they have the right general idea that they should make sure the conflict continues to tie up the fiends attention and work to reduce its damage to others and try to help mortals so that they are not fooled into joining it. Keep doing that and wait and see if an opportunity to inflict an actual wound on evil should it arise (though to be careful to make sure that not only one side gets hit hard enough that the other can somehow actually win).

[JoeJ]

I am not seeing the point in having the Celestials fighting in the Blood War. The Celestial forces have not been shown to be strong enough to defeat both the demons and devils and if they are strong enough to beat one they would be vulnerable to the remaining faction as they would be more depleted and the other would be fresh. What is the point of changing this status quo if you cannot create a better situation by direct intervention? It is best to have your forces be fresh and go in force to fight in smaller engagements that can make a bigger difference in service to others. While the Blood War rages as is the devils and demons have much of their energies devoted to fighting each other rather being able to devote all of their energy to hurting mortals or the celestial realms.

What do you expect a more direct intervention to accomplish? Unless you think the celestials can beat both (either one at a time or at the same time) you are really looking at just making a third front in the war where celestials throw their lives away just to pretend they are making a difference. While throwing those lives away that means that they will have a harder time trying to do the good they already do.

I do think they have the right general idea that they should make sure the conflict continues to tie up the fiends attention and work to reduce its damage to others and try to help mortals so that they are not fooled into joining it. Keep doing that and wait and see if an opportunity to inflict an actual wound on evil should it arise (though to be careful to make sure that not only one side gets hit hard enough that the other can somehow actually win).

The point in 2e was to intervene when one side was starting to get the upper hand. Then celestials that have the same law-chaos orientation as the side that is losing will join the fight. They don't actually want either group of fiends to win, but they're more afraid of the ones on the other side of that axis than of the ones on their own side. They also make raids to rescue hostages and innocent people caught up in the war. And in addition to armed forays, there was at least one archon who was secretly selling weapons.

[JackPhoenix]

Power is not the point. Gaining battle experience is about developing tactical skill, gaining knowledge of the enemy, and becoming used to the hardships of war.

That work for mortals, not for supernatural creatures that are created with all skills and knowledge they need. A god need an angel who knows fiends' weaknesses, the best tactics to use against them, and lacks fear, doubt or remorse for its actions in war? He'll just make one.

Of course, if you listen to certain rumors (started by the man fiend himself, no doubt), that's how we've got Asmodeus.

[Naanomi]

Of course, if you listen to certain rumors (started by the man fiend himself, no doubt), that's how we've got Asmodeus.
That guy has at least four distinct origin stories... just the way he likes it

[Envyus]

Attacks on the upper planes by fiends no doubt happen. But it's not nearly as common as the fiends attacking each other.

Also the blood war according to Mordenkainen's does happen throughout the whole of the lower planes. Most of the Battles are in Avernus however.

[JoeJ]

That work for mortals, not for supernatural creatures that are created with all skills and knowledge they need. A god need an angel who knows fiends' weaknesses, the best tactics to use against them, and lacks fear, doubt or remorse for its actions in war? He'll just make one.

Of course, if you listen to certain rumors (started by the man fiend himself, no doubt), that's how we've got Asmodeus.

What makes you think it's even possible for angels to be created already knowing what they need to know? Angels, according to the MM, are formed from the "astral essence" (whatever that is) of gods, but the deities they're made out of are neither omniscient nor omnipotent, and the angels aren't either.

[JackPhoenix]

What makes you think it's even possible for angels to be created already knowing what they need to know? Angels, according to the MM, are formed from the "astral essence" (whatever that is) of gods, but the deities they're made out of are neither omniscient nor omnipotent, and the angels aren't either.

Nobody in this thread has ever claimed angels are omniscient or omnipotent. What makes you think they aren't created as they are in the MM? Have you seen any baby angel or angel commoner anywhere?

[JoeJ]

Nobody in this thread has ever claimed angels are omniscient or omnipotent. What makes you think they aren't created as they are in the MM? Have you seen any baby angel or angel commoner anywhere?

Do you have a version of the MM that says angels are tactically skilled and knowledgeable about fighting fiends?

[Millstone85]

Well, that's still rather pessimistic.I don't know. I think it would make for an epic version of Judment Day.


Have you seen any baby angelSure.
https://www.freepngimg.com/thumb/cupid/35785-8-cupid-transparent-image-thumb.png
More seriously, I often envision angels as celestial constructs of sort. Not so much soldiers as living weapons.

[Unoriginal]

Where does it say that it's hard? Portals still exist, and the Infinite Staircase, and Yggdrasil. I haven't seen anything indicating that plane travel is harder or less common than it was back in 2e/Planescape.


To the good fortune of the rest of the multiverse, almost all the battles in the Blood War take place in the Abyss and the Nine Hells. Whether by cosmic chance or the design of some unknown power, the dark waters of the Styx provide passage between the two planes, · but pathways to other realms are at best fleeting and unreliable. Despite the difficulty of escaping the Lower Planes, combatants on both sides find their way to the Material Plane and other realms from time to time

Mordenkainen's p. 5.


As the devils have surmised, the demons invade Avernus because it is easily accessible from the Abyss.

Mordenkainen's p. 8.


For all their might, most devils are effectively trapped in the Nine Hells. While other planar creatures use magic to move between planes, devils require either a portal they can physically walk through or a summoning conducted by an entity on a distant plane. They have little will in determining where they can go.


Mordenkainen's p. 20.



Again, what changed in 5e to justify this claim about what would happen?

You haven't read anything I wrote, or Zariel's story, uh?




Nothing in MM says that angels are or can be created with experience.

If your argument is that the gods create incompetent angels and so must participate in the Blood War to gain experience, rather than elite troops who have the proper knowledge and attitude, I don't know what to tell you.


Neither is a good conduit for an army of that kind. The infinite staircase is hard to navigate, and too dominated by Lilliends (celestials). The world tree is a bit better, but the Norse pantheon is possessive of the above-ground parts, and you probably don’t want to challenge them by marching an army the place (and it is pretty chaotically aligned overall, so probably only viable for demons anyways)

Gates (natural or artificial) and the Outlands are still probably the preferred options; as they were in 2e

And the entities who control a plane can decide to allow the Gate to open or not, so it's hardly a good way to invade.

[Kane0]

Page 4 of the Monster Manual, under the heading ‘How to use this book’? The ‘Creating a monster’ section of the DMG starting page 273?

Remember the entire game is descriptive, not prescriptive. Just because it isn’t explicitly written doesnt mean it does not and cannot exist.

[MeeposFire]

The point in 2e was to intervene when one side was starting to get the upper hand. Then celestials that have the same law-chaos orientation as the side that is losing will join the fight. They don't actually want either group of fiends to win, but they're more afraid of the ones on the other side of that axis than of the ones on their own side. They also make raids to rescue hostages and innocent people caught up in the war. And in addition to armed forays, there was at least one archon who was secretly selling weapons.

Which is essentially my point that the forces of good would rather keep doing what is needed to make sure the fiends are continuing this fight rather than pitting the forces of good in a large direct confrontation. A direct fight would be too costly and would not likely lead to helping their own cause in the long run. Being good they will also make smaller actions such as rescuing hostages but they are not trying to join the war because that would be foolish.

[Temperjoke]

You know, the danger of evil vs. evil is that whoever wins could end up stronger than the both combined. But then, the risk of Good interfering in the battle could tip the stalemate and cause one side to claim victory.

[Fire Tarrasque]

You know, you guys have all been ignoring the origin of the Devils. The Angels don't intervene because they have other threats too deal with. Like the Far Realm. That's why Asmodeus got them to strike a deal with him, which caused the famous "Read the fine print." scene.

Edit: Also, you know the Blood War is kind of on pause right now after Asmodeus gained true godhood and chucked the Abyss into the elemental chaos, and caused it's current position?

Second edit: And there are other places to gain experience. Like Ysgard. Or the Wildlands. Or Limbo. Or Gehenna. Or Hades. Or the Shadowfell. Or they could practice against each other in war games like normal people.

[Millstone85]

Also, you know the Blood War is kind of on pause right now after Asmodeus gained true godhood and chucked the Abyss into the elemental chaos, and caused it's current position?You are thinking of the 4e World Axis cosmology, and the FR explanation for it. 5e uses a modified version of the Great Wheel, which does not place the Abyss in the Elemental Chaos.

[Unoriginal]

You know, you guys have all been ignoring the origin of the Devils. The Angels don't intervene because they have other threats too deal with. Like the Far Realm. That's why Asmodeus got them to strike a deal with him, which caused the famous "Read the fine print." scene.

Nope, this is not canon in 5e.


5e Celestials never made a deal with Asmodeus. And thanks the gods for that, it was dumb as hell.



Edit: Also, you know the Blood War is kind of on pause right now after Asmodeus gained true godhood and chucked the Abyss into the elemental chaos, and caused it's current position?

Nope. This is 4e lore, we are talking about 5e.

The Abyss are not in the Elemental Chaos, Asmodeus has nowhere near the power to throw an infinite plane away, and the Blood War is ongoing.

[Millstone85]

Speaking of the 4e World Axis and its elemental demons, it might influence me in overestimating how dangerous the Abyss is compared to the Nine Hells.

Especially in Nentir Vale lore, which describes the Abyss as having been created when Tharizdun nuked the Elemental Chaos with something he may have found in the Far Realm. Asmodeus would later steal a small piece of the Abyss' power to create the Nine Hells in the Astral Sea.

[Unoriginal]

Speaking of the 4e World Axis and its elemental demons, it might influence me in overestimating how dangerous the Abyss is compared to the Nine Hells.

Especially in Nentir Vale lore, which describes the Abyss as having been created when Tharizdun nuked the Elemental Chaos with something he may have found in the Far Realm. Asmodeus would later steal a small piece of the Abyss' power to create the Nine Hells in the Astral Sea.

Yeah, other editions' lore can do that.

In 5e, the Abyss are created by the mortals' capacity to be donkey holes. Well, mostly the mortals.

And while Asmodeus is still a tough custommer, keep in mind one of the myths used to show his greatness consists of him showing up at his trial, spouting his mostly empty justification to why he is evil, and then sitting smugly as the Celestials charged him with a list of crimes so long that even Primus, who was acting as the judge, got fed up with it. And it ended up with the "one must not lie for a contract or break a contract" rule be enforced on all Devils, or else.

While fun, it's not exactly hurl-planes-around material.

So yeah, both the Abyss and the Nine Hells are far less powerful in 5e.

[Naanomi]

In 2e/3e lore... and arguably 5e... the Abyss predated the existence of the Gods substantially, so the God Tharzidun creating it is quite the feat. The nature of the Abyss and the... unnature of the Far Realm are completely different flavors of bad (then again when the Far Realm is involved; time, logic, and causality are polite suggestions at best)

[MReav]

That isn’t the same, and won’t protect him. Kossuth gets ‘power’ from everyone who reveres flame, but the explicit relationship between worshiper and God is a different thing, and he would lose his divinity and he cast adrift in the Astral if his name were forgotten and his temples fell. Lolth is similar with being the patron of Drow... So to with Asmodeus: he can draw power from the activity of all Devils; but his specific worship is what sustains his divinity specifically

I think Kossuth might be a bad example as he is a primordial, and thus isn't technically sustained by worship.

[Naanomi]

I think Kossuth might be a bad example as he is a primordial, and thus isn't technically sustained by worship.
A 4e concept that didnt exist before and doesn’t seem to exist now. Kossuth has Clerics that he grants powers to, be was bound to the plane of Toril when AO said so, he’s a God by DnD standards l; albeit one who lives in the Inner Planes (like several other Gods do)

[Millstone85]

A 4e concept that didnt exist before and doesn’t seem to exist now.Outside of the spell planar ally, which lets you ask a god, a primordial, or a demon prince, to send a celestial, an elemental, or a fiend, to your help. I wonder if it is a leftover from early development or if 5e will eventually come back to that.

[Naanomi]

Outside of the spell planar ally, which lets you ask a god, a primordial, or a demon prince, to send a celestial, an elemental, or a fiend, to your help. I wonder if it is a leftover from early development or if 5e will eventually come back to that.
Not sure, but a good number of the beings they labeled as Primordials in 4e are now back on the list of Gods, listed as Great Old Ones (or other Warlock patrons), or on the Elder Evil list in MToF

[Unoriginal]

Weren't some of the elemental lords called primordial?

[JackPhoenix]

Maegera the Dawn Titan is still described as primordial in STK