With the introduction of the Double Bladed Scimitar, is an elf rogue now best rogue?

[Neknoh]

For those not in the loop, Double-Bladed Scimitar (with the feat that is basically attached to it) is a 2-handed finesse weapon that deals 2D4+mod damage on attack, immediately followed by a second attack (through a self contained bonus action) with the same stats. But in order to wield this newfangled combo every one is convinced breaks the game, one has to be an elf, not half, not adopted to, but a pure elf.

There have been talk of various classes and class combinations being possible, as well as a discussion on if a hexblade can summon this weapon or not, but let's leave that out for now and focus on a pure, single classed rogue.

Are we now looking at Elf Rogues with DBS's and the feat being the "best" rogues when it comes to single-class rogues? Is there any other single-class configuration that can compete with this?

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Compete with? Yes. It may depend on your table, but ranged rogues are still quite good. I'm not willing to say that a DBS melee rogue is outright more powerful than, say, a lightfoot halfling who attacks from stealth with Sharpshooter every round. Or a Sharpshooter/Crossbow Expert scout.

Purely in terms of melee rogues, yes, I think elf DBS rogues are the best option. 4d4 plus double ability mod is better than 2d8 plus ability mod. None of the racial features from non-elven races make up the difference IMO.

[GlenSmash!]

I always thought Elves made the best Rogues because of Longbow proficiency.

[ciarannihill]

It's worth remembering that the Eberron stuff isn't exactly, but is functionally UA: That is to say, playtest material. It's not official yet, and my guess would be that this weapon and feat in particular will be toned down heavily due to how it kind of breaks balance over it's knee...

[Segev]

What is the RAW on this being elf-only?

Is this something that elves can do but Bladelocks cannot?

[Neknoh]

The feat responsible for a lot of the breakage is RAW "Prerequisite: Elf"

[the secret fire]

Are we now looking at Elf Rogues with DBS's and the feat being the "best" rogues when it comes to single-class rogues? Is there any other single-class configuration that can compete with this?

A bonus action attack is already possible for Rogues without any funky items or feats; just hit em with your off-hand. This is just a way for the Rogue to add more damage on a bonus action at the cost of a feat, a racial restriction, and the fact that carrying a two-handed weapon can be inconvenient for a Rogue.

Is a Rogue carrying one of these things potentially scary? Yeah, but it's not clearly the best Rogue. There are plenty of powerful Rogue concepts which don't involve much melee combat, at all.

[Segev]

The feat responsible for a lot of the breakage is RAW "Prerequisite: Elf"

That's the feat that makes it a finesse weapon, I take it? I suppose I can see why a race+feat choice is less investment than two class features on the Warlock. (Hexbladelock would get Cha instead of Str or Dex to it, and can conjure a magical one out of thin air.)

[Arvin Natsuko]

I know that makes more sense to think the game at early levels, but for the proposed discussion, I think any Melee Rogue with a Rapier and Booming Blade can deal more sustained raw damage at Level 17. This by simple and non-complex math.

It probably changes it you account the double chance of the DBS Elf land the Sneak Attack or even a critial hit, since he attacks twice, but as a Lawyer, I can't do that math :smallbiggrin:

Well, just to prove my point:

DBS Elf Rogue LVL 11 Dex 20

Action (Attack): 2d4+5 + 6d6 (31)
Bonus Action: 2d4+5 (10)

Total: 41 Damage

BB Trickster LVL 11 Dex 20

Action (Booming Blade): 1d8+5 + 2d8 + 6d6 (39.5)

Total 39.5 Damage


DBS Elf Rogue LVL 17 Dex 20

Action (Attack): 2d4+5 + 9d6 (41.5)
Bonus Action: 2d4+5 (10)

Total: 51.5 Damage

BB Trickster LVL 17 Dex 20

Action (Booming Blade): 1d8+5 + 3d8 + 9d6 (54.5)

Total 54.5 Damage

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

That's the feat that makes it a finesse weapon, I take it? I suppose I can see why a race+feat choice is less investment than two class features on the Warlock. (Hexbladelock would get Cha instead of Str or Dex to it, and can conjure a magical one out of thin air.)

Finesse weapon, +1 AC, +1d4 damage on the second attack and +1 Dex or Str.

[Willie the Duck]

Are we now looking at Elf Rogues with DBS's and the feat being the "best" rogues when it comes to single-class rogues? Is there any other single-class configuration that can compete with this?

Best? Certainly not. Tied for first? Quite possibly. First and foremost, given how easy it is to hide (to gain advantage and ping SA), and how fragile a rogue generally is (especially if they are spending their ASIs on feats and not Dex), whether melee rogues in general are top tier is an open question. Beyond that, a rogue who spends their bonus action to do something other than disengage and hide behind their tank buddy is playing the odds. A Booming Blade-wielding Arcane Trickster, or twf swashbuckler probably doesn't do quite this much damage, but if they can get behind a buddy with sentinel or the like, or any rogue whom an opponent can't even locate, has many tactical advantages on this guy. Yes, I am aware that that is taking into the equation environmental and party-makeup decisions the rogue and player can't control. However, I feel they belong in the discussion because that's kind of the lot one takes when you play one of the skirmish-type classes.

That said, DBS elf rogue is clearly a superior choice than a normal (and non-swashbuckler) Two-weapon fighting, melee rogue. That said, it is not so unbelievable that you would overturn your pre-existing plans to exclusively play such a build (for instance, my next rogue was still going to be a bugbear fighter1/Strogue, and the ruling on Shield Master is what throws that into jeopardy, not this).

[Corran]

Well, at first glance, I think that needing to invest in a feat (assuming you were planning to play an elf in the first place) balances out what you gain. And unless I am missing something big, I would not choose to invest in a feat for just upping my damage output a tiny bit and for a +1 AC on a rogue. Unless maybe I had an odd dex score cause of rolling stats. And even then it would probably be a maybe. With point buy, no, I am not convinced.

Edit: It's a cool looking weapon though!

[Malifice]

Oh look. Three threads now on the topic of a weapon that does a few points more damage than simply using 2 short swords.

If this and GWM is all were really worried about, vale quadratic wizards and linear fighters.

[the secret fire]

Best? Certainly not. Tied for first? Quite possibly. First and foremost, given how easy it is to hide (to gain advantage and ping SA), and how fragile a rogue generally is (especially if they are spending their ASIs on feats and not Dex), whether melee rogues in general are top tier is an open question. Beyond that, a rogue who spends their bonus action to do something other than disengage and hide behind their tank buddy is playing the odds. A Booming Blade-wielding Arcane Trickster, or twf swashbuckler probably doesn't do quite this much damage, but if they can get behind a buddy with sentinel or the like, or any rogue whom an opponent can't even locate, has many tactical advantages on this guy. Yes, I am aware that that is taking into the equation environmental and party-makeup decisions the rogue and player can't control. However, I feel they belong in the discussion because that's kind of the lot one takes when you play one of the skirmish-type classes.

That said, DBS elf rogue is clearly a superior choice than a normal (and non-swashbuckler) Two-weapon fighting, melee rogue. That said, it is not so unbelievable that you would overturn your pre-existing plans to exclusively play such a build (for instance, my next rogue was still going to be a bugbear fighter1/Strogue, and the ruling on Shield Master is what throws that into jeopardy, not this).

Well said, duck.

[MaxWilson]

For those not in the loop, Double-Bladed Scimitar (with the feat that is basically attached to it) is a 2-handed finesse weapon that deals 2D4+mod damage on attack, immediately followed by a second attack (through a self contained bonus action) with the same stats. But in order to wield this newfangled combo every one is convinced breaks the game, one has to be an elf, not half, not adopted to, but a pure elf.

There have been talk of various classes and class combinations being possible, as well as a discussion on if a hexblade can summon this weapon or not, but let's leave that out for now and focus on a pure, single classed rogue.

Are we now looking at Elf Rogues with DBS's and the feat being the "best" rogues when it comes to single-class rogues? Is there any other single-class configuration that can compete with this?

As far as I can tell, you start as elf, spend a feat, and get to add your Dex mod to your off-hand damage, plus getting a slightly bigger base damage die. Since higher-level rogues do most of their damage through sneak attack, adding Dex to the off-hand attack is a relatively small deal, possibly not competitive with other feats unless you're playing in a very low-level campaign where sneak attack damage is low.

The balance relative to other classes remains pretty much unchanged. Rogues will continue to be good at levels 1-4 because they're getting damage boosts that other classes don't get until level 5; at higher levels, they require things like Booming Blade and advantage from Cunning Action to compete in DPR terms, although they have and always will have pretty nasty opportunity attacks.

The only way I can imagine for this new feat to be broken is if it lets you make a bonus action attack without taking the Attack action, because then it would synergize with Booming Blade. THAT would be a big deal. The only feat I can think of that works like that, though, is Tavern Brawler, and it gives you a bonus action grapple, not a damaging attack.

[AvvyR]

Oh look. Three threads now on the topic of a weapon that does a few points more damage than simply using 2 short swords.

Remember, every thread on this forum has to be either "Everything is broken" or "how can we break this thing?"

[GlenSmash!]

Oh look. Three threads now on the topic of a weapon that does a few points more damage than simply using 2 short swords.

If this and GWM is all were really worried about, vale quadratic wizards and linear fighters.

I think one can recognize when something is a numerical outlier and want it brought in line with the existing math, without thinking it's the worst thing ever.

[BoxANT]

rapier + booming blade + sneak + disengage

superior even without the trigger, and with the trigger, no contest

[GlenSmash!]

rapier + booming blade + sneak + disengage

superior even without the trigger, and with the trigger, no contest

Too be fair, this works with DBS if you've taken the feat, and you would do slightly more damage, and have +1 AC and still been able to boost Dex by 1.

Whether or not that's worth choosing Elf as a race and taking the feat and getting the weapon is certainly up for debate.

[Foxhound438]

The only way I can imagine for this new feat to be broken is if it lets you make a bonus action attack without taking the Attack action, because then it would synergize with Booming Blade. THAT would be a big deal. The only feat I can think of that works like that, though, is Tavern Brawler, and it gives you a bonus action grapple, not a damaging attack.

this brings up a good point. You're only really ahead by a pinch, and you're not ahead for the very early or very late levels. 1-3 you don't have the feat, so if I'm reading the other posts right it looks like it doesn't have finesse yet. So until you hit level 4 you're behind on overall stats since you would want to buy a 17 dex to get up to 18, and then at level 4 you get a big jump in power. However, other rogues (particularly V.Human or High Elf ones) at level 5 get a d8 of damage from GFB/BB to catch up some. Both would get sneak attack assuming they can hit at all, the double scimitar guy gets on top of that 4d4+2*dex, so 18 before SA. A rogue using a rapier and booming blade gets to do 2d8+dex, so 13. It's a big gap there but not as big as without BB. At level 11 the double scimitar is still only doing 20, while the BB catches up significantly to 18.5. Finally, at level 17 the double scim has already peaked at 20, and the BB gets a third on-hit d8 for 23 damage before SA, which is marginal but still a pinch better in terms of damage.

However, better still might be arcane trickster. Remember there's a 2nd level spell that AT's can take to get yet another d8 of damage, and free advantage in any amount of darkness in shadow blade. Not to mention psychic damage. At 13th you have the option of spending the higher spell slot for another d8, putting your 17th level damage before SA at 6d8+5, or 32- more on average than you get from your sneak attack.

[Zalabim]

Is there a variant that gives some elves proficiency with the Double Bladed Scimitar? Because Rogues are not proficient with all Martial Weapons. From what I've seen, the weapon is a non-issue.

[Exocist]

Is there a variant that gives some elves proficiency with the Double Bladed Scimitar? Because Rogues are not proficient with all Martial Weapons. From what I've seen, the weapon is a non-issue.

Yeah you can forgo Elf Weapon Training for it


These elves have a racial trait in place of the Elf Weapon Training trait. If your DM allows it, your elf character can forgo Elf Weapon Training and instead take the elf trait based on their culture:

A Valenar elf gains proficiency with the scimitar, double scimitar, longbow, and shortbow.

That being said, I don't find it that much of a problem unless you play in a featless game. Making TWFing more competitive with the strongest builds means there's more variety at the top end(I don't even think it brings it up to par with CE/SS or PAM/GWM). I expect DMs who ban PAM/GWM and CE/SS will also ban Double Scimitars/Revenant blade. No point neutering it just so its on par with what is generally a weak option (TWFing is only better than Great Weapon Fighting in the level 1-4 range IIRC).

[Lonely Tylenol]

Well, at first glance, I think that needing to invest in a feat (assuming you were planning to play an elf in the first place) balances out what you gain. And unless I am missing something big, I would not choose to invest in a feat for just upping my damage output a tiny bit and for a +1 AC on a rogue. Unless maybe I had an odd dex score cause of rolling stats. And even then it would probably be a maybe. With point buy, no, I am not convinced.

Edit: It's a cool looking weapon though!

The highest an Elf’s Dexterity in games with standard Point Buy is 17, so this feat competes with Elven Accuracy for the thing that bumps you to 18. So, since your DEX is going to 18 whether you take this feat or not, the question is whether the +1 AC and having two attacks that both deal 2d4+Dex on the base (as opposed to two attacks that deal 1d6, only one with Dex) is worth delaying Elven Accuracy’s tri-advantage, or saving those two points on Point Buy for a tertiary stat to take the +2. I think it is definitely better than the latter, and kind of better than the former, obviously contingent on builds (Elven Accuracy just being better for ranged builds, for example).

As for the people here saying Booming Blade smashes this: don’t High Elves just get a cantrip, while also being eligible for proficiency with the DBS? You can do two things; I know Booming Blade is enticing when you have (tri-) advantage, and can basically guarantee your one attack roll hits, but for other situations (you have no advantage, or disadvantage negates your advantage), making one attack roll in a round is by no means an assurance of damage, and if you need to make two attack rolls, DBS with feat is just the superior option. The benefit of Booming Blade is that it gives you tactical options for your damage output, not that deals more damage (since its damage is not guaranteed and it limits you to one attack, and it only actually deals more damage than a DBS off-hand attack, which is unconditional, at level 11, anyway). It is always a toggle. So the question is: do you toggle BB with a rapier or pair of short swords, or do you toggle BB with a double-bladed sword, with an average damage of ~6-8 higher and +1 to AC (without necessarily sacrificing pace on Dex, as you might with Dual Wielder)?

For Assassins, Scouts, Swashbucklers, and Extra Attack multiclasses who are not High Elves, DBS is just the superior melee weapon. For High Elves (particularly Inquisitive and Mastermind High Elves) and Arcane Tricksters, DBS with feat is still the best weapon, just not a build unto itself, so (strictly mechanically speaking) any other race you would want to play now has to offer racial benefits that also outweigh the benefits of this superior weapon.