Help another and Invisibility

[Cicciograna]

When an invisible creature uses the Help action, does she break invisibility?

The description of the condition doesn't give any particular insight on the nature of the invisibility.
The rules for the spell say that the creature stays invisible unless she attacks or casts a spell. The Help action doesn't seem to require any attack roll, and it's not considered an attack in and by itself. The fluff of the action says that you feint, or generally distract, or help the other to attack more successfully, but this is rather vague.

If I were a DM, I would rule that yes, it does indeed turn the creature visible again, but then RAW wouldn't seem to suggest that.

Am I missing anything?

[Aett_Thorn]

You shout “boo!” right behind the enemy, startling him since he couldn’t see anyone.

You keep Invisibility and still get to help your buddy out. Just call yourself Casper.

[Lunali]

The mastermind rogue subclass extends the range to 30ft on the condition that the target be able to either see or hear you, so direct interaction would not be necessary. I would however rule that it reveals your position, allowing attacks at disadvantage unless you can also manage to hide afterwards.

[Aett_Thorn]

The mastermind rogue subclass extends the range to 30ft on the condition that the target be able to either see or hear you, so direct interaction would not be necessary. I would however rule that it reveals your position, allowing attacks at disadvantage unless you can also manage to hide afterwards.

Ummm...isn’t that all Invisibility does in the first place? Unless you’re saying that you’d allow casters to Target you with spells that require the caster to see the target.

[Metamorph]

Ummm...isn’t that all Invisibility does in the first place? Unless you’re saying that you’d allow casters to Target you with spells that require the caster to see the target.

Not if you use it f. E. Outside of combat or if you are already invisible by the start of the fight. If the opponent cannot see invisible things he is having no clue that you are there.

[Malifice]

Not if you use it f. E. Outside of combat or if you are already invisible by the start of the fight. If the opponent cannot see invisible things he is having no clue that you are there.

Doesnt matter if you're invisible at the start of a fight.

Unless you had previously tried to be quiet and conceal your location (Hide), in which case you get to make a Stealth check to hide (via the action) as normal, and this is compared to the Perceptions of nearby creatures as normal.

IMG the invisible and hiding player cant speak or otherwise communicate with the other players (unless he has telepathy or similar).

[Vogie]

When an invisible creature uses the Help action, does she break invisibility?

The description of the condition doesn't give any particular insight on the nature of the invisibility.
The rules for the spell say that the creature stays invisible unless she attacks or casts a spell. The Help action doesn't seem to require any attack roll, and it's not considered an attack in and by itself. The fluff of the action says that you feint, or generally distract, or help the other to attack more successfully, but this is rather vague.

If I were a DM, I would rule that yes, it does indeed turn the creature visible again, but then RAW wouldn't seem to suggest that.

Am I missing anything?

It does not.

It's fairly well-understood, as it is more commonly referred to as "the entire playstyle of Chain Warlocks".

RAW states that "An invisible creature is impossible to see without the aid of magic or a Special sense. For the purpose of Hiding, the creature is heavily obscured. The creature’s location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves. Attack rolls against the creature have disadvantage, and the creature’s Attack rolls have advantage."

RAW also states that "You can make an opportunity attack when a hostile creature that you can see moves out of your reach"

So any creature, player or familiar, can invisibly get close to a target, use the help action, and move away without provoking AOOs, provided they have the movement.

If there's any way that the target can hear or otherwise detect (but not see) the invisible individual, they can attack it, as described above, but only on their turn.

[Segev]

RAW states that "An invisible creature is impossible to see without the aid of magic or a Special sense. For the purpose of Hiding, the creature is heavily obscured. The creature’s location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves. Attack rolls against the creature have disadvantage, and the creature’s Attack rolls have advantage."

RAW also states that "You can make an opportunity attack when a hostile creature that you can see moves out of your reach"


The one thing that bugs me is that a character who doesn't take the Hide action but is Invisible still is automatically noticed, no matter what he's doing.

[Xetheral]

The one thing that bugs me is that a character who doesn't take the Hide action but is Invisible still is automatically noticed, no matter what he's doing.

That's not universally true. Presumably, most DMs would rule that a sufficiently-distant invisible character isn't noticed. For example, an invisible character five miles away would probably be considered unnoticed at most tables. The question then becomes how far away does an invisible character need to be before they're unnoticed? There is no answer in the rules, so it's a DM call.

Based on previous threads, some DMs will use abstract cutoffs, such as "only invisible creatures not part of the encounter are unnoticed" and others will use varying levels of simulation to determine a specific distance for the circumstances. As a DM you're welcome to factor in what the invisible character is doing when determining the maximum distance at which they can be automatically noticed, and you're adhering to all of the stealth rules by doing so.

[Demonslayer666]

The one thing that bugs me is that a character who doesn't take the Hide action but is Invisible still is automatically noticed, no matter what he's doing.

That's not the way it should be done, unless you make enough noise to be easily detected, and/or leave obvious tracks and they are free to follow them (not distracted by something like combat). Invisibility says you can be detected, not you are automatically detected. The DM should use the current situation to determine if you are noticed or not (from automatic to a Perception DC, all the way up to impossible). Is the invisible person making a lot of noise, is other noise covering it up (combat), are they leaving tracks or are they leaving some kind of trail (blood), is the observer distracted, etc.

If you are smoking from being lit on fire, and then you turned invisible, I'd let them pinpoint you automatically in just about any situation (attack your square with disadvantage). If you were wearing full plate mail on a stone dungeon floor, it would probably be close to automatic.

If you were flying and turn invisible, there are no tracks or footfalls. So unless you somehow make noise, you are next to impossible to detect. The DC would be very high, and/or their perception made with disadvantage. If they were distracted, I would say you go undetected automatically.

[Malifice]

That's not the way it should be done

Yes, it is.

Invisibility grants you (and only you) heavy obscurement (enabling you a Stealth check to Hide as an action).


unless you make enough noise to be easily detected, and/or leave obvious tracks and they are free to follow them (not distracted by something like combat).

Which the game presumes you are doing, unless you are trying to be quiet and conceal your presence and location (using the Stealth skill to Hide, which in combat takes an action).


Invisibility says you can be detected, not you are automatically detected. The DM should use the current situation to determine if you are noticed or not (from automatic to a Perception DC, all the way up to impossible).


The DC to detect you is based on your Stealth check result, obtained via the Hide action.

If you're NOT trying to be quiet, and conceal your location (haven't yet taken the Hide action) then you're NOT trying to be quiet or conceal your location.

[Metamorph]

Yes, it is.

Invisibility grants you (and only you) heavy obscurement (enabling you a Stealth check to Hide as an action).



Which the game presumes you are doing, unless you are trying to be quiet and conceal your presence and location (using the Stealth skill to Hide, which in combat takes an action).



The DC to detect you is based on your Stealth check result, obtained via the Hide action.

If you're NOT trying to be quiet, and conceal your location (haven't yet taken the Hide action) then you're NOT trying to be quiet or conceal your location.

So you tell us if someone is not moving and invisible you can tell where he would be?
Do you get his Position from his breathing?

For real, in my opinion this makes no sense and I guess this is a rule where the dm should take action.

[Malifice]

So you tell us if someone is not moving and invisible you can tell where he would be? .

Depends on his Stealth check result (and my Perception score).

And of course I could tell where he is. Footprints in the [mud, grass, dust] that stop abruptly. The sound of his armor and leather pouches jangling and creaking as he stands there. Smoke from the lantern I am holding swirling around him, leaving a vague man-shaped hole in the middle. The smell of his sweat, or body odor, or spell components. Bumping into him as I walk past. Etc.

If he's [not moving, concealing his presence, and being quiet] while I cant see him, he's taking the Hide action. That is expressly what the Hide action 'is'.

Get it yet? If you're invisible and you want to [stop moving, be quiet, and conceal your footprints and other signs of your presence] youre taking the Hide action.

Its the exact same if you duck behind total cover making yourself unseen. Or if make yourself unseen in any other way. You still need to take the Hide action (representing the time cost and effort - and how effective you are - of being quiet, moving slowly, stilling your breath, concealing your passage etc) to become hidden.

That [being quiet, moving slowly, stilling your breath, concealing your passage etc, while unseen] is expressly what the Stealth skill is for!

If you're unseen (but not hidden - both unseen and unheard) then you're just invisible (with the invisible condition). You get a whole raft of benefits (advantage to hit, disadvantage to be hit, total immunity to many class features and spells, immunity to attacks of opportunity and many monster special abilities) including the ability to Hide (via the action) at will.

[Xetheral]

Malifice, do I remember correctly that you rule that an invisible creature that isn't part of an encounter is not automatically noticed?

If not, how far away does an invisible creature need to be before you rule that they are not automatically noticed?

(Both of the above questions assume the invisible creature has not taken the hide action.)

[Malifice]

Malifice, do I remember correctly that you rule that an invisible creature that isn't part of an encounter is not automatically noticed?

Unless they're trying to be quiet, and/or conceal themselves from those nearby, then yes - they're noticed.

Not pinpointed. Just a general idea that something is present, and a rough idea of where.

Not enough to target it with many spells, or attacks of opportunity. But with enough of an idea to allow six seconds of wild swinging in the general area (or snapping off shots with a bow) in the general vicinity to allow an attack (at disadvantage).


If not, how far away does an invisible creature need to be before you rule that they are not automatically noticed?

I dont have a 'firm' distance. It depends on the environment, background noise, size of the creature etc. An invisible pixie can be screaming at the top of its lungs 10 miles away and it wont be noticed.

I generally start my encounters at maximum distances of around 30-60 feet (one move, a dash or two moves away) or closer, so within that distance its pretty much 'hide or they'll have a general idea you're there and where you are'.

A creature that is not hiding (has not taken the Hide action), has not yet made any effort to be quiet and conceal their presence. If they do want to keep quiet and conceal their presence they get a Stealth check via the Hide action.

The action is only relevant in combat situations, when actions matter. But due to the fact you can only be found afterwards (unless you otherwise reveal yourself) via the Search action, the action economy evens out.

[Segev]

My issue with the "well, he's not trying to hide, so everybody knows he's there despite his invisibility" thing is that we often have things that require Perception to notice despite not being actively nor intentionally hidden.

Do you automatically notice the stain on your shirt from your lunch having dripped on it immediately after it happens? You never, ever fail to notice such things until you're in what would constitute an entirely different scene, or even having to wait for somebody else to point it out?

Do you automatically notice that your keys are in the living room, and not anywhere else in the house, when you just pass through the room while looking for them after you realize they're not in your pocket like you thought? Nobody hid them from you, and they're sitting on the coffee table...but so are a bunch of other things.

Do you automatically notice that there are 12, not 11, flies buzzing around a rotten meal left on a table for too long? This last one is particularly on the nose for this, as this is what is required to notice that there is an invisible 12th fly out of a swarm of 11. The 12th fly isn't making the Hide action; it's just buzzing around with the others. It doesn't even know it's invisible.

[Vogie]

My issue with the "well, he's not trying to hide, so everybody knows he's there despite his invisibility" thing is that we often have things that require Perception to notice despite not being actively nor intentionally hidden.

Do you automatically notice the stain on your shirt from your lunch having dripped on it immediately after it happens? You never, ever fail to notice such things until you're in what would constitute an entirely different scene, or even having to wait for somebody else to point it out?

Do you automatically notice that your keys are in the living room, and not anywhere else in the house, when you just pass through the room while looking for them after you realize they're not in your pocket like you thought? Nobody hid them from you, and they're sitting on the coffee table...but so are a bunch of other things.

Do you automatically notice that there are 12, not 11, flies buzzing around a rotten meal left on a table for too long? This last one is particularly on the nose for this, as this is what is required to notice that there is an invisible 12th fly out of a swarm of 11. The 12th fly isn't making the Hide action; it's just buzzing around with the others. It doesn't even know it's invisible.

As a single parent of a 6 year old, I can personally attest that people fail to perceive a lot of things that are not, in any way, actively hidden. There is no hide actions or invisibility used, and yet...

[Segev]

As a single parent of a 6 year old, I can personally attest that people fail to perceive a lot of things that are not, in any way, actively hidden. There is no hide actions or invisibility used, and yet...

My metaphorical hat is off to you, Sir or Madam; kids are delightful, and I would love to have some, but as an unmarried man, I know I couldn't give them the time and attention they would need. Being a single parent strikes me as one of the hardest and most heroic jobs anybody can take on.

Especially when they're little Warlocks with invisible familiars. >_> <_< ;)

[Xetheral]

.I dont have a 'firm' distance. It depends on the environment, background noise, size of the creature etc. An invisible pixie can be screaming at the top of its lungs 10 miles away and it wont be noticed.

I too take into account factors like environment and background noise when determining the distance beyond which an invisible, not-hidden character might go unnoticed. I also take into account what the invisible character is doing--a screaming pixie will be automatically noticed at much greater distances than a quietly-humming pixie, for example. I also take into account contextual differences. For example, at my table, following the approximate location of an opponent who turned invisible in a one-on-one duel is easier (and thus can be accomplished at greater distances) than noticing the new arrival of an invisible character to an ongoing pitched battle.


I generally start my encounters at maximum distances of around 30-60 feet (one move, a dash or two moves away) or closer, so within that distance its pretty much 'hide or they'll have a general idea you're there and where you are'.

Although you and I take into account similar factors when determining the distance beyond which an invisible, not-hidden character might go unnoticed, we reach different conclusions. In a combat situation with multiple combatants, I frequently set that distance well below 60' or 30' feet. Any invisible, not-hidden character beyond that (situation-specific) distance might go unnoticed at my table.

[Malifice]

I too take into account factors like environment and background noise when determining the distance beyond which an invisible, not-hidden character might go unnoticed. I also take into account what the invisible character is doing--a screaming pixie will be automatically noticed at much greater distances than a quietly-humming pixie, for example. I also take into account contextual differences. For example, at my table, following the approximate location of an opponent who turned invisible in a one-on-one duel is easier (and thus can be accomplished at greater distances) than noticing the new arrival of an invisible character to an ongoing pitched battle.



Although you and I take into account similar factors when determining the distance beyond which an invisible, not-hidden character might go unnoticed, we reach different conclusions. In a combat situation with multiple combatants, I frequently set that distance well below 60' or 30' feet. Any invisible, not-hidden character beyond that (situation-specific) distance might go unnoticed at my table.

If the creatures in your encounter set up are hidden, why not simply roll or determine a stealth check for them at the start of the encounter?

[Metamorph]

If the creatures in your encounter set up are hidden, why not simply roll or determine a stealth check for them at the start of the encounter?

I think when someone is shooting fireballs in your face or tries to stab you, you maybe think more about surviving that, then looking for someone who potentially could be there, but means no harm in that speific moment.

[Xetheral]

If the creatures in your encounter set up are hidden, why not simply roll or determine a stealth check for them at the start of the encounter?

If the invisible creature's intent is to remain hidden (and they're not doing anything else that would preclude taking the hide action) then I would certainly have them roll stealth.

But, beyond a situation-specific distance, invisible creatures who aren't hiding (for whatever reason) might remain unnoticed anyway at my table. It sounds like you do exactly the same thing, you just usually set a farther distance limit.

[Malifice]

If the invisible creature's intent is to remain hidden (and they're not doing anything else that would preclude taking the hide action) then I would certainly have them roll stealth.

But, beyond a situation-specific distance, invisible creatures who aren't hiding (for whatever reason) might remain unnoticed anyway at my table. It sounds like you do exactly the same thing, you just usually set a farther distance limit.

If I have an invisible creature (or PC) that was trying to be quiet at the start of a combat then it likely starts hidden (with a stealth check to determine success).

If they're not trying to be quiet, then they're not quiet. They're not unheard and they're not hidden.

[Xetheral]

If I have an invisible creature (or PC) that was trying to be quiet at the start of a combat then it likely starts hidden (with a stealth check to determine success).

If they're not trying to be quiet, then they're not quiet. They're not unheard and they're not hidden.

Unless they're far enough away, yes? Then they might be unheard even though they aren't trying to be quiet? Or have I misunderstood you?

[Malifice]

Unless they're far enough away, yes? Then they might be unheard even though they aren't trying to be quiet? Or have I misunderstood you?

Yeah sort of.

Its not just hearing them. Signs of their passage (swirling lantern smoke, footprints and splashes in puddles, moving grass, or bumping against things, smell of components and body language etc) also give you away.

Outdoors for example, any grass over a few inches and its going to be pretty obvious where you are as it bends as you move (and even lawn length grass will have footprint indentations in it where you are standing or walking as the grass gets flattened). Ditto mud, pudddles, dust and even most carpet.

Plus of course the sound they make as the move, breathe etc.

Barring a totally white room encounter, there are always going to be plenty of signs to give someone away if they're not making any effort to be quiet and not be noticed (i.e using the Stealth skill via the Hide action).

[NaughtyTiger]

Passive stealth is a thing.

And if you aren't moving, the DM is well within raw to a +5 to a passive stealth score.

[Xetheral]

Yeah sort of.

Its not just hearing them. Signs of their passage (swirling lantern smoke, footprints and splashes in puddles, moving grass, or bumping against things, smell of components and body language etc) also give you away.

Outdoors for example, any grass over a few inches and its going to be pretty obvious where you are as it bends as you move (and even lawn length grass will have footprint indentations in it where you are standing or walking as the grass gets flattened). Ditto mud, pudddles, dust and even most carpet.

Plus of course the sound they make as the move, breathe etc.

Barring a totally white room encounter, there are always going to be plenty of signs to give someone away if they're not making any effort to be quiet and not be noticed (i.e using the Stealth skill via the Hide action).

Let me rephrase my question more broadly. Have I understood you correctly that beyond a certain (situation specific) distance, you would permit an invisible character to remain unnoticed even though it hadn't taken the hide action?

[Malifice]

Let me rephrase my question more broadly. Have I understood you correctly that beyond a certain (situation specific) distance, you would permit an invisible character to remain unnoticed even though it hadn't taken the hide action?

Yes. In the same way an orc 1 mile away is hidden.

[Xetheral]

Yes. In the same way an orc 1 mile away is hidden.

Ok, good. We appear to be taking a conceptually similar approach, we just each set wildly different distance limits for auto-detection of non-hidden, invisible creatures.

[ad_hoc]

If a character is in a forest and there is no one around to detect them, are they hidden?