Darts - An overlooked weapon?

[Protato]

After helping someone build their second character, an Eldritch Knight Warforged, I had noticed that they had gotten short on cash (I let them choose gear from the starting list, or took their average money and let them pay for items). They hadn't had any ranged weapons though, and buying a bundle of javelins, hammers, or axes was a no-go due to the expense. As a quick and dirty option, I suggested darts, and for the price of one GP, they had 20 Darts. While the range was low, the damage they did to the goblins they had fought proved useful This got me thinking: Why don't people here talk about darts? Does anyone use them? If not, then why not? I know the range and damage is low, but as a cheap option at low levels or a backup ranged attack for strength martials, they seem like a no-brainer.

[MaxWilson]

After helping someone build their second character, an Eldritch Knight Warforged, I had noticed that they had gotten short on cash (I let them choose gear from the starting list, or took their average money and let them pay for items). They hadn't had any ranged weapons though, and buying a bundle of javelins, hammers, or axes was a no-go due to the expense. As a quick and dirty option, I suggested darts, and for the price of one GP, they had 20 Darts. While the range was low, the damage they did to the goblins they had fought proved useful This got me thinking: Why don't people here talk about darts? Does anyone use them? If not, then why not? I know the range and damage is low, but as a cheap option at low levels or a backup ranged attack for strength martials, they seem like a no-brainer.

They're fine. You've summed up their pros and cons pretty well right there. Not much to talk about beyond those basics.

[denthor]

In the past and I am speaking of 30 years ago a dart specialist was written about image strength of 18 /00 +6 to hit and +4 damage I think.

So your super strong fighter is looking for cheese and becomes a dart specialist the rules said the best they could do is the weapon damage which at the time was 1d2 I think. So damage +2 was all you got unless you got dart of the hornet. You would toss one and the it became like 6 darts for about 20 hit points per dart.

[Bahamut7]

I always try to equip my characters in a way that seems reasonable as Bags of Holding aren't a guarantee. Not to mention having some weapons and tools hidden on you is never a bad thing. Darts can be hidden in sleeves, boots, belt, etc. Yes, their damage is meh (great for Monks) but really if it's an emergency, why not?

Also, you could use the darts as makeshift tools as well.

[Zanthy1]

I like having darts, especially on melee characters because I can apply poisons to them. At higher levels, they really fall off unfortunately

[Gilrad]

Aren't they the only str-keyed ranged weapon that plays well with multi-attacks? As in, other thrown weapons require an item interaction to get a new one ready, whereas darts are ammunition and therefore are replaced automatically?

I could see their value if you have a RAW-only DM who won't budge on having to use item interactions to replace thrown items.

[JackPhoenix]

Darts are "overlooked" because, like any other thrown weapon, you can only draw one per turn, thus making it incompatible with Extra Attack. Unlike any other thrown weapon except net, though, they are a ranged weapon, and thus work with SS.

[RSP]

Huh, you actually can’t use Str to throw a dart as it’s a Ranged Weapon andthe finesse property is completely redundant. Per the RAW:

“The ability modifier used for a melee weapon attack is Strength, and the ability modifier used for a ranged weapon attack is Dexterity. Weapons that have the finesse or thrown property break this rule.”

So it’s bavk to javelins for the Str thrower...

As an aside, I love the idea that you can kill someone with a dart by throwing it so well but not in any way with Str...this is about on par with fireballs in terms of mimicking real life.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Huh, you actually can’t use Str to throw a dart as it’s a Ranged Weapon and the finesse property is completely redundant. Per the RAW:

“The ability modifier used for a melee weapon attack is Strength, and the ability modifier used for a ranged weapon attack is Dexterity. Weapons that have the finesse or thrown property break this rule.”

So it’s bavk to javelins for the Str thrower...

As an aside, I love the idea that you can kill someone with a dart by throwing it so well but not in any way with Str...this is about on par with fireballs in terms of mimicking real life.

Its not redundant, a finesse weapon lets you use strength or dexterity. If a Dart wasn't finesse it could only use dexterity because its listed under ranged weapons and not melee like most other thrown weapons. Thrown weapons use whatever ability modifier you use when making a melee attack with it. That's why handaxes and such are limited to strength they lack the finesse property.

[rbstr]

Huh, you actually can’t use Str to throw a dart as it’s a Ranged Weapon andthe finesse property is completely redundant. Per the RAW:
Raw is:
Finesse. When making an attack with a finesse weapon, you use your choice of your Strength or Dexterity modifier for the attack and damage rolls. You
must use the same modifier for both rolls.

Darts can totally be thrown with strength.

[RSP]

Its not redundant, a finesse weapon lets you use strength or dexterity. If a Dart wasn't finesse it could only use dexterity because its listed under ranged weapons and not melee like most other thrown weapons. Thrown weapons use whatever ability modifier you use when making a melee attack with it. That's why handaxes and such are limited to strength they lack the finesse property.

Gotcha. Interesting that they worded it the way they did, as it basically ends up with “finesse” meaning the opposite of what it actually means.

[Exocist]

In the past and I am speaking of 30 years ago a dart specialist was written about image strength of 18 /00 +6 to hit and +4 damage I think.

So your super strong fighter is looking for cheese and becomes a dart specialist the rules said the best they could do is the weapon damage which at the time was 1d2 I think. So damage +2 was all you got unless you got dart of the hornet. You would toss one and the it became like 6 darts for about 20 hit points per dart.

+3 to Hit and +6 to damage, but you could throw something ridiculous like 4-6 (level 1, 7 or 13 Warrior) darts per round or something if you had Weapon Specialization (darts), on top of the Dart's regular 1d3.

So you could swing 2-3 times with a two handed sword (IIRC two-handed Sword Specialist was 3/2, then 2, then 5/2 attacks per round at level 1, 7 and 13) for 1d10+6 damage each (Average: 11.5 per hit, which was a LOT of damage in 1st/2nd edition) or you could throw a bunch of darts for 1d3+6 damage each (Average: 8 per hit).

Basically the damage looked like this:

Level 1: Two-Handed Sword specialist attacks 3/2 times per round for 17.25 damage on average, Dart Specialist throws 4 darts for 32 damage on average.
Level 7: Two-Handed Sword attacks 2 times per round for 23 damage, Dart specialist throws 5 darts for 40 damage.
Level 13: Two-Handed sword attacks 5/2 times per round for 28.75 damage, Dart Specialist throws 6 darts for 48 damage.

Of course, said strategy was only viable if you rolled any degree of Exceptional strength (you needed to be a Warrior and roll 18 on Strength to be able to roll exceptional, which was a 1/216 if you're running 3d6 in order). Without exceptional strength, darts didn't do enough damage, even with their ridiculous amount of attacks, to beat out other weapons.

[MeeposFire]

+3 to Hit and +6 to damage, but you could throw something ridiculous like 4-6 (level 1, 7 or 13 Warrior) darts per round or something if you had Weapon Specialization (darts), on top of the Dart's regular 1d3.

So you could swing 2-3 times with a two handed sword (IIRC two-handed Sword Specialist was 3/2, then 2, then 5/2 attacks per round at level 1, 7 and 13) for 1d10+6 damage each (Average: 11.5 per hit, which was a LOT of damage in 1st/2nd edition) or you could throw a bunch of darts for 1d3+6 damage each (Average: 8 per hit).

Basically the damage looked like this:

Level 1: Two-Handed Sword specialist attacks 3/2 times per round for 17.25 damage on average, Dart Specialist throws 4 darts for 32 damage on average.
Level 7: Two-Handed Sword attacks 2 times per round for 23 damage, Dart specialist throws 5 darts for 40 damage.
Level 13: Two-Handed sword attacks 5/2 times per round for 28.75 damage, Dart Specialist throws 6 darts for 48 damage.

Of course, said strategy was only viable if you rolled any degree of Exceptional strength (you needed to be a Warrior and roll 18 on Strength to be able to roll exceptional, which was a 1/216 if you're running 3d6 in order). Without exceptional strength, darts didn't do enough damage, even with their ridiculous amount of attacks, to beat out other weapons.

Well also if you played with the suggestion from skill and powers only allow str bonus to damage up to the damage die of the weapon also could limit it but who plays with that right?

Also so you can get enough damage from specialization. Two handed sword in 2 rounds would do 5*(7.5)=37.5 but darts had 12*(3.5)=42. Obviously not as big a difference but every damage bonus you can get improves darts more than the two handed sword (but then again two handed sword is rather lackluster unless you are using the damage vs large enemy tables).

[Exocist]

Well also if you played with the suggestion from skill and powers only allow str bonus to damage up to the damage die of the weapon also could limit it but who plays with that right?

Also so you can get enough damage from specialization. Two handed sword in 2 rounds would do 5*(7.5)=37.5 but darts had 12*(3.5)=42. Obviously not as big a difference but every damage bonus you can get improves darts more than the two handed sword (but then again two handed sword is rather lackluster unless you are using the damage vs large enemy tables).

Is that when your DM hits you with the "Darts cost 5 SP (wtf? Why are they so expensive?) each" :smalltongue:

But then he has to track your ammo and roll for how many of those darts you're able to successfully recover, hmmm....

[Alderic78]

It got even better with haste.

But yes... darts are actually fun and cheap. You could always throw a dagger... but chances are you don't have many of those...
With darts... 10 or 20 are the norm.
Quite useful on a monk of you can't or don't feel like closing in melee.
I don't see the ammunition property on them... so they should be in the same boat as daggers... unless my PHB is outdated.

[AttilatheYeon]

I always try to equip my characters in a way that seems reasonable as Bags of Holding aren't a guarantee. Not to mention having some weapons and tools hidden on you is never a bad thing. Darts can be hidden in sleeves, boots, belt, etc. Yes, their damage is meh (great for Monks) but really if it's an emergency, why not?

Also, you could use the darts as makeshift tools as well.

Darts aren't a monk weapon. So they are meh on a monk. Good for rogues tho.

[Exocist]

It got even better with haste.

But yes... darts are actually fun and cheap. You could always throw a dagger... but chances are you don't have many of those...
With darts... 10 or 20 are the norm.
Quite useful on a monk of you can't or don't feel like closing in melee.
I don't see the ammunition property on them... so they should be in the same boat as daggers... unless my PHB is outdated.

They don't have the ammunition quality on them, but they're classified as ranged weapons.


Ammunition
You can use a weapon that has the Ammunition property to make a ranged Attack only if you have Ammunition to fire from the weapon. Each time you Attack with the weapon, you expend one piece of Ammunition. Drawing the Ammunition from a Quiver, case, or other container is part of the Attack (you need a free hand to load a one-handed weapon). At the end of the battle, you can recover half your expended Ammunition by taking a minute to Search the battlefield. If you use a weapon that has the Ammunition property to make a melee Attack, you treat the weapon as an Improvised Weapon (see “Improvised Weapons” later in the section). A sling must be loaded to deal any damage when used in this way.

My guess is because they're not loaded with anything, they don't have Ammunition. They're lighter and cheaper than Daggers, lacking only the Light property of the Dagger, but if you wanted to hit someone from afar - why not use a Shortbow or Sling? The only reason would be if you're using STR right? At that point, you're comparing it to the Javelin (8x Heavier, 10x as expensive for +1 damage on average and some more range) but both have the same problem - by RAW you're limited in how many you can throw by Object interaction. You can only draw 1 per turn, so you can make at most 3 attacks on your first round and then only one per round thereafter. I feel that if your DM waives this, you might as well just ask for a Composite Bow (Bow that uses STR) instead of trying with Darts - after all, arrows are the same price (1 GP for 20 = 5 CP each) but much lighter (1/20lb vs 1/4lb, who even plays with encumbrance?).

Wouldn't a monk have a better time using a Shortbow instead of fiddling around with Darts?

[opaopajr]

They're cheap, which is good. :smallsmile: Aaaand, that's about it.

They are a good example of 5e's slapdash equipment list. They are NOT light property, even though being 1/4 lb., like the lightest weapon on there (barring the mere leather thong of a sling,). They are not a melee weapon, either, which matters. This bars them from being used for Two Weapon Fighting as a bonus action because that looks for a Light Melee Weapon. You can still attack with them as a melee attack, which interestingly enough due to the lack of Ammunition keyword does not force it into being used as an Improvised Weapon dealing 1d4.

Yes, you can make three attacks with them, by starting with two in each hand and interacting with an object to get a third. But you have to have another way to make those attacks, such as Fighters with extra attacks or action surge. :smallamused:

A good candidate to houserule, if you plan on editing the equipment list or general TWF. Have fun!

[ciarannihill]

My only issue with Darts is that they are somehow not able to be Monk weapons, even though Monks start with them! And they really ought to be the Monk thrown weapon aesthetically IMO, but they're just less effective in that role than Daggers because you can't use the martial arts die.

[Malifice]

I find it annoying they are not Monk weapons (shuriken) but thrown daggers are (getting the improved damage die).

[Demonslayer666]

Because they very quickly become irrelevant.

Funny anecdote, we now use the term "within dart range" to designate low hit points because our monk got notorious for finishing off almost every encounter by killing it with a dart. This, of course, was at very low levels, but it stuck. (pun intended) :smallsmile:

[CharonsHelper]

+3 to Hit and +6 to damage, but you could throw something ridiculous like 4-6 (level 1, 7 or 13 Warrior) darts per round or something if you had Weapon Specialization (darts), on top of the Dart's regular 1d3.

So you could swing 2-3 times with a two handed sword (IIRC two-handed Sword Specialist was 3/2, then 2, then 5/2 attacks per round at level 1, 7 and 13) for 1d10+6 damage each (Average: 11.5 per hit, which was a LOT of damage in 1st/2nd edition) or you could throw a bunch of darts for 1d3+6 damage each (Average: 8 per hit).

Basically the damage looked like this:

Level 1: Two-Handed Sword specialist attacks 3/2 times per round for 17.25 damage on average, Dart Specialist throws 4 darts for 32 damage on average.
Level 7: Two-Handed Sword attacks 2 times per round for 23 damage, Dart specialist throws 5 darts for 40 damage.
Level 13: Two-Handed sword attacks 5/2 times per round for 28.75 damage, Dart Specialist throws 6 darts for 48 damage.

Of course, said strategy was only viable if you rolled any degree of Exceptional strength (you needed to be a Warrior and roll 18 on Strength to be able to roll exceptional, which was a 1/216 if you're running 3d6 in order). Without exceptional strength, darts didn't do enough damage, even with their ridiculous amount of attacks, to beat out other weapons.

Now I'm curious if Baldur's Gate reflected that. If I ever run through that game again I'll have to try it out.

[KorvinStarmast]

After helping someone build their second character, an Eldritch Knight Warforged, I had noticed that they had gotten short on cash (I let them choose gear from the starting list, or took their average money and let them pay for items). They hadn't had any ranged weapons though, and buying a bundle of javelins, hammers, or axes was a no-go due to the expense. As a quick and dirty option, I suggested darts, and for the price of one GP, they had 20 Darts. While the range was low, the damage they did to the goblins they had fought proved useful This got me thinking: Why don't people here talk about darts? Does anyone use them? If not, then why not? I know the range and damage is low, but as a cheap option at low levels or a backup ranged attack for strength martials, they seem like a no-brainer. My monk still used them at level 3 when that game was still ongoing ...

[MaxWilson]

I suppose if you have a Strength-based GWM Fighter or something who picks up Sharpshooter on the side, darts are your only option for utilizing the -5/+10 portion of the feat. (A thrown dagger or something has the Thrown property, making it a ranged weapon attack and eligible for ignoring long-ranged disadvantage, but it is not technically a ranged weapon because it's not listed in the ranged weapon section of the equipment table, so it isn't eligible for -5/+10. But I'm not 100% convinced that it's good for the game when a DM enforces subtle technicalities like that.)

[DrowPiratRobrts]

Darts might as well be rocks. People don't talk about them because its such a niche situation when a) you need to use something like a dart AND b) you can't afford a few daggers. The monk being so broke might fall into this more than other classes, but even then you can find better ways to fight most of the time.

The only other reason I can see to use them is either concealing them in a weapon-restricted area (again, throwing daggers would be almost as concealable here in most cases and provide much better upside) or to fit a character concept like the pin-cushion monk mentioned above.

[rbstr]

I use them a decent bit with my current Strength-based Ranger. They've been useful to deliver Hail of Thorns and as a medium-range kiting sort of weapon.
I guess daggers do the same dang thing but these make more sense as something I'm gonna throw a lot. Cheaper, less weight.

IMO they should have the ammunition and light properties.

[DrowPiratRobrts]

I use them a decent bit with my current Strength-based Ranger. They've been useful to deliver Hail of Thorns and as a medium-range kiting sort of weapon.
I guess daggers do the same dang thing but these make more sense as something I'm gonna throw a lot. Cheaper, less weight.

IMO they should have the ammunition and light properties.

This is actually one of the best uses I've heard of. It could just as well be a dagger or an arrow, but this way you don't have to have either of those things on you nor do you have to retrieve the dagger if you're trying to run away/hide from someone pursuing the party. Well done. Gold star.

[KorvinStarmast]

Hmm; someone cited the dart's cost as 5 Sp. In the basic rules it reads
5 Cp 1d4 piercing 1/4 lb. Finesse, thrown (range 20/60)

Did that get an errata to 5 SP?

[MeeposFire]

Now I'm curious if Baldur's Gate reflected that. If I ever run through that game again I'll have to try it out.

BG did not. BG only gave str bonus to weapons like the throwing axe and magical slings but did not give daggers or darts str bonus to damage. It also ony used dex for the THAC0 boosting when those weapons were used at range.

Darts in BG were best used by low str characters that otherwise would only get one attack per round like probably your mage and did not have access to the bow. If you had a high str you would gravitate towards sling or throwing axe (hand axe does slightly more damage but it is easier to carry ammo for the sling than a bunch of axes at least until you got a returning axe). If you had access to bows you would probably use that since the extra attacks, long range, and fast missile speed were very helpful.

[Sigreid]

Even at higher levels they are good on an assassin rogue. Particularly in a intrigue campaign. Almost all your damage comes from SA anyway.

[thepsyker]

+3 to Hit and +6 to damage, but you could throw something ridiculous like 4-6 (level 1, 7 or 13 Warrior) darts per round or something if you had Weapon Specialization (darts), on top of the Dart's regular 1d3.

So you could swing 2-3 times with a two handed sword (IIRC two-handed Sword Specialist was 3/2, then 2, then 5/2 attacks per round at level 1, 7 and 13) for 1d10+6 damage each (Average: 11.5 per hit, which was a LOT of damage in 1st/2nd edition) or you could throw a bunch of darts for 1d3+6 damage each (Average: 8 per hit).

Basically the damage looked like this:

Level 1: Two-Handed Sword specialist attacks 3/2 times per round for 17.25 damage on average, Dart Specialist throws 4 darts for 32 damage on average.
Level 7: Two-Handed Sword attacks 2 times per round for 23 damage, Dart specialist throws 5 darts for 40 damage.
Level 13: Two-Handed sword attacks 5/2 times per round for 28.75 damage, Dart Specialist throws 6 darts for 48 damage.

Of course, said strategy was only viable if you rolled any degree of Exceptional strength (you needed to be a Warrior and roll 18 on Strength to be able to roll exceptional, which was a 1/216 if you're running 3d6 in order). Without exceptional strength, darts didn't do enough damage, even with their ridiculous amount of attacks, to beat out other weapons.

With the 1st Ed UA specialization would also give you +1H +2D, although the 2HW would then have the option to douple spec for a total of +3H +3D.

[Potato_Priest]

The primary reason that I prefer Javelins to Darts even though I’m a total cheapskate (I often use a sling instead of a bow to save money) is that the javelin has significantly better range. In practical terms, 30 feet is a lot better than 20, and 120 feet is way better than 60. Javelins can also be used as a backup melee weapon, which has been extremely useful to me on multiple occasions after being disarmed/having my weapon destroyed.

[JackPhoenix]

D&D darts are less like throwing darts you'd find in a pub, and more like lawn darts, or Roman plumbata. Not that concealable.

[opaopajr]

D&D darts are less like throwing darts you'd find in a pub, and more like lawn darts, or Roman plumbata. Not that concealable.

Yes, historically they should be closer to that. And coming in a 4 oz., roughly the weight of average meat filets, it's nothing like the flechettes used in pub games. Imagine a sharp, aerodynamic, hamburger patty-weight thing hurled at you.

(And yes, darts in 5e are 5 copper a pop. So a GP buys twenty.

Dunno if they need the Ammo property, as they can now be used as a melee weapon without explicit Improvised Weapon prof & damage cap (same as Net, but that's moot due to dash damage,). So go ahead and jab someone within 5' with proficiency and your desired stat damage bonus. But it sure as heck should be Light. I am personally fond of generic TWF changing from light melee weapon into light non-ammunition weapon. Net already has Special keyword text which prevents abuse there.

There's no "right answer" though. As long as you are consistent when altering the Equipment list, you should be fine. I give the designers a break because they just wanna eat at the end of the day, so they throw lots of stuff out there. It's up to us GMs to take ownership of the game at our table.)

[Bahamut7]

Darts aren't a monk weapon. So they are meh on a monk. Good for rogues tho.

Darts are a simple range weapon, which means they are Monk weapons. So they would scale with Martial Arts damage.

[Crgaston]

Darts are a simple range weapon, which means they are Monk weapons. So they would scale with Martial Arts damage.

“Monk weapons are shortswords and simple melee weapons that don't have the heavy or two-handed property.“

So, it’s probably an oversight, but no, they’re not.

[Bahamut7]

“Monk weapons are shortswords and simple melee weapons that don't have the heavy or two-handed property.“

So, it’s probably an oversight, but no, they’re not.

Check the PHB, Monk weapon proficiency: Simple weapons and Short Swords. Hence why you get 10 darts as part of your starting equipment. Roll20 also has this listed:

https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Monk#content

I also checked my PHB pdf as well.

[JackPhoenix]

Check the PHB, Monk weapon proficiency: Simple weapons and Short Swords. Hence why you get 10 darts as part of your starting equipment. Roll20 also has this listed:

https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Monk#content

I also checked my PHB pdf as well.

Proficiency isn't the same as monk weapons. Elven monk is proficient in longbow, that doesn't make longbow a monk weapon.

[leogobsin]

Check the PHB, Monk weapon proficiency: Simple weapons and Short Swords. Hence why you get 10 darts as part of your starting equipment. Roll20 also has this listed:

https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Monk#content

I also checked my PHB pdf as well.

Thing is, there's a difference between "weapons monks are proficient with" and "monk weapons" (i.e. stuff that Martial Arts applies to). Monks are proficient with darts, but their damage doesn't increase as you hit higher monks levels.

[Bahamut7]

Just reread the Martial Arts section and I was wrong. Strange. well, at my table all monks are welcomed to use whatever they are proficient in as Monk Weapons...of course that is not official just the way my group plays. Sad, it is an odd choice from a design perspective, but I have to assume they did that for a reason.

[mephnick]

Only reason I could see using them would be like....a strength semi-ranged rogue? I guess that could be neat.

[djreynolds]

Just play a brute fighter, now throwing darts is very scary