Invoke Duplicity (Trickery Domain) - Can enemies know the clone is an illusion?

[Merudo]

I've seen a lot of people claim Invoke Duplicity can't fool an enemy beyond the first attack. According to this reading of the spell, as soon as a creature attacks the clone once, it realizes the clone is an illusion.

However, nothing of the sort is implied in the spell description.

The spell creates a "perfect illusion of yourself", which seems to imply that enemies can't figure out it isn't you. There is also no mention of creatures realizing it is a fake after trying to interact with it.

Compare this to other illusion spells:



Disguise Self: The changes wrought by this spell fail to hold up to physical inspection.

Silent/Minor Image: A creature that uses its action to examine the image can determine that it is an illusion with a successful Investigation check

Major Image: Physical interaction with the image reveals it as an illusion. A creature can use its action to determine that it's an illusion with a successful Investigation check.

Hallucinatory Terrain: The tactile characteristics of the terrain are unchanged, so creatures entering the area are likely to see through the Illusion. If the difference isn't obvious by touch, a creature carefully examining the Illusion can attempt an Intelligence (Investigation) check against your spell save DC to disbelieve it

Project Image: The illusion looks and sounds like you but is intangible.


All of these spells explicitly states that physical interaction and/or investigation can let a creature see through the illusion. Since Invoke Duplicity does not include such stipulation, we can conclude that the ability cannot be rendered moot by an attack. The illusion is "perfect", so enemies hitting it will feel like they are hitting something, even through they are not.



perfect: having all the required or desirable elements, qualities, or characteristics; as good as it is possible to be.


I'd also point out that there is a large body of classical literature in which illusions can include tactile components. In one Norse tale, Útgarða-Loki (a giant) subjects Thor to many illusions. Thor first hits a sleeping Útgarða-Loki three times with his hammer, to little effect. Thor is then challenged to lift a large housecat and wrestle with an old woman, but fails at both tasks.

http://home.freeuk.net/elloughton13/images13/vescape3.jpg

Turns out that Útgarða-Loki actually deflected the hammer strikes (Thor hit the mountainside, and carved three gaping valleys into it), that the cat was the gigantic Midgard serpent, and that the old woman was old age itself.

[Snivlem]

You can try to convince your DM because the lack of hard rules attached to the ability makes it entirely up to them. I wouldn't count on it. Most people (including me) figures it is implied by the fact that it is an illusion...

[Merudo]

Most people (including me) figures it is implied by the fact that it is an illusion...

Shadow Blade lets you do extra damage, and Phantom Steed functions as a steed.

Clearly, there is precedent for illusions to impact the physical world.

[Snivlem]

Shadow Blade lets you do extra damage, and Phantom Steed functions as a steed.

Clearly, there is precedent for illusions to impact the physical world.

Irrelevant. Both those spells have clear, hard rules attached to them. RAW on invoke duplicity, the DM doesn't even have to make the monsters target the illusion. The ability just creates an image and the rest is up to the DM. Of course, a DM that just sidesteps the illusion and doesn't make the enemies target it at all, would be a bad DM. But I think you would be very hard pressed to find a DM that will target the illusion once their weapons swing straight through it.

The spell have a similar effect to spells such as silent image. You are basically asking for the spell to work like phantasmal force, but that is a different kind of illusion (it exists only in one persons mind and allows a saving throw.)

Again - good luck finding a DM that will go along with your interpretation in anything except very specific circumstances. The effect of the ability is entirely ut to them. I think the posters you refer to above are right when they say enemies will only waste one attack on it, unless there is good reason for them to keep targeting it.

[Rixitichil]

The best I've managed is have the Duplicate act as regenerating effective Mirror Self. (By having the duplicate and real cleric merge with one another whilst entering the same space and then split, my DM has ruled the monsters no longer know which is an illusion.)
I have had varied interpretations as to whether a monster can detect the illusion just by making a single attack or if they need to hit. Like all illusions, it is definitely worth chatting with your DM before the campaign to work out the limits of the ability.
That said, advantage for melee spell attacks like Inflict Wounds is always useful, as is using the illusion as bait or a distraction, (I have managed to pull off the Loki classic of illusion by cliff edge, emerge from shadows to attack foe that rushes at it, so I feel it does the job.l

[NaughtyTiger]

Invoke duplicity is already good (not great, but good) without adding other powers.

Cast spells from the illusion. (counterspell, inflict wounds, cure wounds...)
The illusion doesn't have to be on the ground.

It explicitly says what it can do:
advantage within 5ft
cast from illusion.
you can move it anywhere within 30ft.
no checks/interactions make it disappear

anything else is DM discretion (help, disadvantage, fooling, mirror image, ...)

[Specter]

The enemy can certainly know it's an illusion beyond a first attack - but then again, he could be retricked.

Think about it: if you and your illusion go behind a dumpster and then come out again, how would they know which is you? It's an illusion, but it's still a perfect one (and unlike other illusions of its kind, it doesn't look transparent or sound hollow after an attack).

[Beechgnome]

To me there is real extra value of the illusion after the enemy knows it is an illusion... because they will ignore it. But you can still cast spells through it.

Having your illusion walk through a big bad's guards and then inflict wounds on the big bad is super fun... and a multi-classed Druid with earth tremor/thunder wave can also be a nice surprise. It's like in Star Trek: TNG when they split the saucer from the ship. They ignore the saucer (and your duplicate) at their peril.

[Segev]

If fascinates me that they took the power to cast spells through project image away from that 5th level spell in 5e, but gave the power to a seemingly-minor Cleric power.

[Battlebooze]

Invoke Duplicity is awesome, especially when combined with Word of Radiance/point blank area spell/self only spell of your choice.
Move your illusion where you need, and boom boom boom.

Try I.D. and Spirit Guardians... Move that deadly field out there while you stay hiding behind your tanks!

[Merudo]

Try I.D. and Spirit Guardians... Move that deadly field out there while you stay hiding behind your tanks!

Can't work, for obvious reasons.

[Merudo]

RAW on invoke duplicity, the DM doesn't even have to make the monsters target the illusion. The ability just creates an image and the rest is up to the DM.

It doesn't create an image, it creates a "perfect illusion". To be perfect, an illusion must affect all senses (sight/hearing/touch/smell/etc).


Invoke duplicity is already good (not great, but good) without adding other powers.


I'm not adding another power - it is you who is adding another weakness not in the ability description!



Cast spells from the illusion. (counterspell, inflict wounds, cure wounds...)
The illusion doesn't have to be on the ground.

It explicitly says what it can do:
advantage within 5ft
cast from illusion.
you can move it anywhere within 30ft.
no checks/interactions make it disappear

anything else is DM discretion (help, disadvantage, fooling, mirror image, ...)

You forgot the key term "perfect illusion".

I would define an illusion as perfect if nothing beside truesight can distinguish it from the source. Otherwise, the illusion is flawed.

[Darkstar952]

You are applying way too much weight to the word Perfect. This edition is written differently to the previous editions, it isn't written to be overly analysed with each separate word broken down and then twisted to arrive at a meaning of the rule. It is written in a more plain descriptive text.

In this case the use of perfect is simply a descriptor, a way to explain why those observing the illusion don't get to make a save.

[Segev]

To be fair, if it doesn't specify which senses are and are not affected, it is open to interpretation.

[Battlebooze]

Can't work, for obvious reasons.

Concentration. Damn, I had to double check the Invoke Duplicity description again and yea, it counts as spell concentration. Still, that cantrip works really well.

[Snivlem]

It doesn't create an image, it creates a "perfect illusion". To be perfect, an illusion must affect all senses (sight/hearing/touch/smell/etc).



I'm not adding another power - it is you who is adding another weakness not in the ability description!



You forgot the key term "perfect illusion".

I would define an illusion as perfect if nothing beside truesight can distinguish it from the source. Otherwise, the illusion is flawed.

Also an illusion wouldn't be "perfect" unless it also could do dmg and it should insta-kill everyone and have infine range and aoe with free targetability. Also it should have infinite money, a perfect vagina and be able to cast wish as a cantrip and never risk failure. That would be a "perfect illusion". Anthing else and you are just adding another weakness not in the ability description.

[Snivlem]

To be fair, if it doesn't specify which senses are and are not affected, it is open to interpretation.

Yes it is open to interpretation, but that goes for so many things in this game, and I doubt he will find many DMs that agree with his inteerpretation.

[Ganymede]

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/775482420497756161?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5E tweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E775482420497756161&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sageadvice.eu%2F2016%2F1 0%2F06%2Fwhat-happens-when-a-duplicate-of-the-invoke-duplicity-domain-is-attacked%2F

Yes, attackers will be able to surmise that the invoked duplicity is an illusion when their "weapon passes right through it!"

This is not a muddy issue.

[Joe the Rat]

Being an illusion works until examined/struck.
Revelation does not "break" the ID illusory double.
Knowing it is an illusion does not keep you from getting distracted or losinb track of which id which when they are adjacent.
Knowing it is an illusion doesn't make the guiding bolt hurt less.

[RSP]

RAW, I’d say perfect means it can’t be detected normally (no Investigation check). With the Crawford tweet, it can be exposed as insubstantial if attacked, but RAW it doesn’t change how it appears (like with other illusions that state they fade and become see through once interacted with).

I’d imagine it could really confuse enemies if they attack it, think it’s an illusion when their sword passes thru, only to then have the illusion cast a spell and not become faint. Is it an illusion or did magic make the sword go thru a protected caster?