Advice on an Undying Chain Warlock

[ChangeSumFlux]

So I’ve never played a warlock before and now I’m tryin it out. I have a character idea in mind so I won’t be changing from an Undying Warlock. I think chain would be a really fun combination with this as my character is primarily going to be using perma disguise self and actor.

The character is level 10
My stats before racial are
Str 7
Dex 15
Con 17
Int 9
Wis 14
Char 17

Race I’m thinking Yuan-to pureblood would be interesting, it would help explain why I’m always using disguise self. I’m not set in stone in this race, but I do not want to be a small, or larger racer so that disguise self can be most effective.
For my first ASI I’m taking actor so +1 char and fun stuff.
For my second ASI I’m taking resilient-con, but I’m not too sure about this, war caster might be good too. The reason why I went with resilient-con is because our campaign is fairly heavy on con saves due to our major enemy causing con saves just for being nearby. The other determining factor is that I get up to 18 con. Though now that I think of it, in our campaign the Undying lvl 10 ability might completely negate this dc20 con save caused by our main enemy. I guess I’ll find out when we confront them.

So my final stats using these are
Str 7
Dex 15
Con 18
Int 10
Wis 14
Char 20

As for invocations, at lvl 10 I get 5. I can’t remember names so I’m just going to list what they do. (Eldritch blast = EB)
EB + char mod dmg per beam.
EB + 10 ft push per beam
Infinite disguise self
Can talk through familiar and sense through it from anywhere
I’m not sure about the last one I get,

As for spells, I have no clue what is good as I don’t play heavy spell casters often. The closest I’ve played is a moon Druid where I stayed wild shaped more often than not.
All I know is I should take EB and Hex.

Beyond the feat, invocation, and spell help, I was wondering if anyone has any ideas or advice on how to use the Undying and/or chain well. I’ve seen a guide for pact of the chain, but everything I found about Undying was people claiming it was underpowered.

One unique interaction I’ve found pretty easily is using spare the dying through your familiar. I remember reading somewhere that you can cast touch spells through your familiar, and spare the dying is a touch spell.

I know this post is getting pretty long, but the last thing I’d like input on is my patron. I’ve never played a warlock before so I don’t know what my patron should be like (beyond people just spouting names that I’ve never heard of) I don’t want my patron to just be this background guy, I want someone who actually interacts and shapes the character. To give a bit of perspective, our campaign is in a custom world, it’s a lvl 1 - till we stop campaign(my character died) and our current main enemy are the 4 horsemen of the apocalypse. Each one causes a dc20 check when you go near it, our party is attempting to banish them. Beyond that we only know of 2 non-god major entities, that being a powerful Lich that is basically having a turf war with a beholder. The DM though tit might be an interesting idea to have my patron be the beholder or the Lich, but then we both thought that it would be a bad idea in case the party decides to help the beholder or lich and it ends up not being the one that isn’t my patron.

Well thanks in advance for any help/advice, if you only give a little advice, I’m mainly looking for Undying/chain tips/tricks and patron ideas. I’ll also take help with spells and invocations.

[Vogie]

It's not aggressively underpowered... it's just not particularly sexy or exciting compared to other Patron options. The fact that the Defy Death is capped at once per long rest, and only if someone is dying, is really narrow. It does have certain interesting powers, such as the always-on Sanctuary from Undead, and access to the Silence spell, which allows you to take out enemy spellcasters easier than other warlock pacts.

Chain pact warlocks in general are focused on using the invisible familiar giving the help action for advantage on attacks. It looks like you're going the EB route. You'll want to eventually throw an ASI at Dex, because you'll be stuck with Light armor (or Mage armor, if you get the Armor of Shadows invocation), otherwise you'll be a bit too squishy if something gets too close, or has reliable ranged attacks.

You could have rearranged everything to have the 20 in Dex and the 15 in Cha if you wanted to be a martial warlock, possibly with a dip in rogue. Chain warlocks, since they have an invisible familiar that can provide Advantage (like the level 13 Arcane Trickster ability) as early as warlock level 3.

[ChangeSumFlux]

Thanks for the reply, I definitely thought about going a rogue route, mainly for expertise, but it doesn’t really fit what I’m modeling my character after. My character is more of a spy and while he isn’t a pacifist, he will avoid all combat if possible. He doesn’t want to kill people, but he doesn’t care about monsters/creatures.

And as for the EB as my main source of damage, I chose that because it seemed like what the class was pushing and seemed common. Ideally I’d love to use my familiar as my main dmg source but I don’t know how to make that viable. If you have any advice I’d love to hear it.

[Vogie]

And as for the EB as my main source of damage, I chose that because it seemed like what the class was pushing and seemed common. Ideally I’d love to use my familiar as my main dmg source but I don’t know how to make that viable. If you have any advice I’d love to hear it.

Yeah, there's no real way to do that efficiently. They CAN deliver touch-range spells for you, but there aren't really many in the Warlock lists. You will eventually be able to use your familiar to touch Contagion, because you're an Undying 'lock... but that's about it.

If that's something you're interested in, you could go Tomelock with Book of Ancient secrets to get the Find Familiar ritual and the Shocking Grasp cantrip. That way you could give them a scaling cantrip damage that merely costs both your action AND your familiar's reaction, and the possibility for an invisible familiar

I suppose you could keep pact of the chain, then pick up Shocking grasp via magic initiate, but they'd still be visible as soon as they deal damage.


Maybe if you choose a Sprite, rather than an imp, and then use their poisonous shortbow as a debuff, but that's still not doing serious damage.

[ChangeSumFlux]

Ok, yeah I guess I haven’t put much thought into what my familiar was going to be yet. I may not be that worried about dealing high amounts of damage, just making sure I’m not useless in combat. We already have 2 rogues, a sorcerer, and a paladin that are focused for damage.
I might see if my DM will let me use a gazer as a familiar. I read somewhere that it was possible. Would make sense if I made my patron a beholder too. Erggg, it’s making me frustrated that I can’t be a changeling (no UA and DM doesn’t wasn’t to add Eberron), it’s be so perfect for my build. So much I could do to make this character amazing role-playing wise by having a beholder patron and be a changeling.
If I end up not using EB as my main source of damage, that opens up at least one, probably two invocations.

[Corpsecandle717]

There's very little about the mechanics of the relationship between a warlock and it's patron described in the books. I think this is done intentionally because in the end it's almost entirely an RP scenario and is therefore left to the DM and the player to figure out how the two characters interact. That said there's still some description of what the patrons should be. Personally I wouldn't think the Undying and beholders would mix well. I remember reading once that lich beholders are attacked on site by other beholders due to the liches needing to put out their main eye so they can perform the ritual to transition to undeath. There's supposed to be a massive amount of pride tied up in the anit-magic eye. I think any path to immortality is going to be the same for a beholder and they're going to need to put out that eye.

That said of course you and your dm could make it work. The beholder could have been made immortal against his will (might be interesting if it was made a lich as some sort of punishment), and it's gathering minions to seek revenge, but that brings in a lot of baggage that the rest of the party might not enjoy, Then there's the fact beholders could be completely different in your DMs world.

[ChangeSumFlux]

Is there a difference between lich beholders and death tyrants?

Also I checked with the DM and he is using a very customized version of beholders and thus far we only know of one in our world. So maybe beholder doesn’t work for a patron. Too powerful of an entity in a small world.

[CTurbo]

Your familiar is never going to be capable of dishing out very much damage. EB is a fine if not boring way to keep your DPR up if/when you need it though.

I have used an Imp creatively for some decent damage before though. I carried around flasks of oil that my invisible imp would then pour on an enemy so I could then Firebolt to set the enemy on fire. it worked multiple times. Damage from that is up to DM discretion though. I've also used my Imp to poison people too. An Imp is never going to be worth a crap in a fight though, and as mentioned above, Shocking Grasp is about your best bet for touch damage.

Familiars make better scouts and spies. There are very few places that an Imp won't be able to get to. You can also take advantage of it's fire immunity. I burned a building down once and sent my Imp in to raid it while it was burning. An Imp can carry a good bit of gold and jewels.

I wonder if Celestial or Great Old One wouldn't fit what you're going for better.

[ChangeSumFlux]

If I was going for power, I’d go for GoO. Actor + telepathy would be a lot of fun. I’m going Undying because it fits my character idea better.

[Vogie]

The last thing I’d like input on is my patron. I’ve never played a warlock before so I don’t know what my patron should be like (beyond people just spouting names that I’ve never heard of) I don’t want my patron to just be this background guy, I want someone who actually interacts and shapes the character. To give a bit of perspective, our campaign is in a custom world, it’s a lvl 1 - till we stop campaign(my character died) and our current main enemy are the 4 horsemen of the apocalypse. Each one causes a dc20 check when you go near it, our party is attempting to banish them. Beyond that we only know of 2 non-god major entities, that being a powerful Lich that is basically having a turf war with a beholder. The DM though tit might be an interesting idea to have my patron be the beholder or the Lich, but then we both thought that it would be a bad idea in case the party decides to help the beholder or lich and it ends up not being the one that isn’t my patron.

Something that came to mind if you didn't want to fall into the "just another Lich" patron, take a page from the White Wolf RPG Promethean: The Created. They have various levels of undead/undying characters, drawing inspiration from mythos, such as Greece's Galatea, Egypt's Osiris, Jewish Golems, Greece's Orpheus, and, of course, Shelley's Frankenstein. Your patron may be your creator (in that Galatea/Golem sense) or the person who reconstructed you (in the Osiris/Orpheus/Frankenstein sense), and may not have given these powers to you directly - instead, the mere fact that you touched the unknown and were brought back into the land of the living that gave you those warlock powers.

One way you can decide is how you will eventually want to RP your 14th level ability.

[Corpsecandle717]

Is there a difference between lich beholders and death tyrants?

Also I checked with the DM and he is using a very customized version of beholders and thus far we only know of one in our world. So maybe beholder doesn’t work for a patron. Too powerful of an entity in a small world.

It appears so. Hadn't seen death tyrants before your post, but I did quick look up. Death tyrants are a bit more zombie-ish but pretty mush stick to the basic beholder abilities. Beholder liches typically have levels of spell caster in addition to their undead and beholder abilities.

[ChangeSumFlux]

I’m liking the idea of my patron being the creator of my character. It fits well with the style I want. The being I am styling my character after was created by a mortal man with magic who was given absolute powers of creation for a few seconds. One of the things he did was create what I am basing my character off of, an immortal shapeshifter who can change everything about their appearance and makeup(he also made himself immortal, but lost the powers). These beings acted as spies for him and gathered important items of great power, hiding and protecting them from evil.
I’m going to see how closely I can work this sort of idea into my backstory and make my patron like this mortal man who became immortal by taking on godly powers for a few seconds. I just don’t know mechanically how that would work. Would it be a blessing from a god? Maybe a lich that is only trying to prolong his life so he can protect the world from evil by sequestering magical items?

[Vogie]

I’m liking the idea of my patron being the creator of my character. It fits well with the style I want. The being I am styling my character after was created by a mortal man with magic who was given absolute powers of creation for a few seconds. One of the things he did was create what I am basing my character off of, an immortal shapeshifter who can change everything about their appearance and makeup(he also made himself immortal, but lost the powers). These beings acted as spies for him and gathered important items of great power, hiding and protecting them from evil.
I’m going to see how closely I can work this sort of idea into my backstory and make my patron like this mortal man who became immortal by taking on godly powers for a few seconds. I just don’t know mechanically how that would work. Would it be a blessing from a god? Maybe a lich that is only trying to prolong his life so he can protect the world from evil by sequestering magical items?

I like the idea of a divine fire or soul spark that causes immortality that has gone awry. I'd want to work in some back and forth that would require you two to be on not-friendly-but-still-speaking terms because it's a patron. Perhaps:

He was creating a way to channel divine fire, but it is too much for one person... and he didn't want to share it. You were created to be a conduit that had that divine fire flow through you, and into to him... but he constructed the ritual wrong, it didn't flow through to him, and you became immortal instead.
He figured out a way to spark immortality using a ritual or artifact, but he was unsure if he'd survive. You were a test for his procedure, to make sure he survived the process... but during the test he accidentally used all of the soul spark he had harvested, instead of a portion.
He was a alchemical tinkerer who was creating homunculi, and had illusions of grandeur. You were the latest experiment and were too successful, as you were completely sentient and thus not in his control... and due to an accident, potentially set by a rival, your creation destroyed his lab and notes.

In each case, the creator wants to keep you close - you are the pinnacle of his creation, and wants to extract the divine power, soul spark, or just raw data from you... but can't. Yet.