Spell save DC vs proficiency bonus : scaling

[Caesar]

So I am looking at this and thinking, what in the world is the big hurry to get to 20 in a casting stat? Most characters are going to start with a 16 (or even 17) in their main stat for a +3 bonus. You can burn two ASIs and you get all of a whopping +2 to your spell save DC and two more spells you can prepare every day (but no increase in slots available). That just seems underwhelming by itself, but even more so when you see that proficiency bonuses go from +2 to +6 and that's without looking at the natural stat bonuses or any applicable ASIs for classed-NPCs... Even more so when you factor in things like bless, etc...

Is it really such a mechanical advantage to boost to 18 and then to 20, instead of say, taking two half-feats and boosting to 18, but getting all the additional features?


I'm really failing to see the incentive here, but I will admit I am new to 5e and have only a couple games under my belt. Most recently, I was casting grease and thinking, these monsters are beating DC 13 pretty easily, would DC 14 make even the slightest f-ing difference?? At this point, I'd rather get resilient (con) and massively boost that saving throw, than pick up +2 int.

[Sigreid]

For a lot of people knowing you missed your attack roll or getting your spell to stick by 1 point that you could have easily gotten is a bummer.

[JeffreyGator]

Casting stat often adds to damage as well. And possibly important skill checks. Perception, Persuasion/Deception, Arcana??

However, the game is designed around making choices of relatively equal merits. There are definitely benefits to taking a couple of half-feats, however unless you are using the UA skill feats there aren't always that many half feats available for your casting stat that you want to take.

[leogobsin]

So you're not entirely wrong. A lot of it comes down to the fact that most feats just aren't that useful for casters, and especially that there really aren't good half-feats for mental stats. Like you're a wizard, you could take Elven Accuracy if you're an elf, and past that you're gonna pick up... Keen Mind I guess?
The benefits from bumping your casting stat are small, but they're always there. You're probably gonna be casting a spell just about every round, and over time that small increase is going to lead to more attacks hitting and more failed saves.
If you feel like Resilient (Con) is more useful than +2 Int, then by all means go for it.

[Caesar]

Yeah fair enough if you are blasting with spell attacks but for just about anything else, especially control/buff builds... im just not seeing it.

I have odd stats on con and wis, seriously considering resilience(con) and observant(wis) here.

[Lunali]

Keep in mind that some casters get to use their stat bonus to damage as well, greatly increasing its importance.

[Ganders]

One of the ways I think of it is 'How long will my Hold Person last?' The exact details will vary depending on who you cast it on, of course, and much depends on luck. BBEGs and lair monsters have much better saves, but against average mooks:

With 16 stat: an average of 3 rounds against typical saves, or 2 rounds if proficient saves.
With 20 stat: an average of 4 rounds against typical saves, or 2.5 rounds if proficient saves.

And it effects spell attacks too, if you use one of the dozen or so attack spells:

With 16 stat: hit or miss is 50/50.
With 20 stat: hit or miss is 60/40.

Ok, so that doesn't impress you much. But there's more to it than just scaling DCs:

There's also some effect on your own skill checks -- some characters actually consider skills more important than attacks.

And then there's the bonuses: Clerics can learn more spells per day with higher wisdom. And some casters even add bonus damage to each attack based on their stat -- sometimes more than once per turn.

Some people think all of the above is a big deal. I don't -- I personally almost always prefer the feats. But when the stat affects to-hit AND damage AND social skills (as with most warlocks), I can certainly understand why it matters so much.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

If you're a wizard, your options for raising your casting stat with half-feats are Keen Mind, which gives you three ribbon abilities, only one of which is ever useful; Linguist, which is mostly duplicated by a ritual; Observant, which is fine and good if your DM ever uses passive Investigation checks; or four racial feats. Of those four, two are accessible to high elves; the others to tieflings, gnomes and all other elves. So as a human wizard, for instance, if you want to raise your casting stat, you're either taking a full ASI or Observant. Then you're mostly out of options.

Charisma-based casters are worse off in the PHB. They can raise Cha with Actor. That's the only +Cha half feat in the PHB.* So you're probably just putting a +2 in it unless what Actor gives you is super value in your game.

*Technically Resilient, but Resilient is a half-feat that gives proficiency in saves of the stat you select. This is valuable for EKs, 4 Elements monks and all rangers. It is not valuable for bards, clerics, druids, paladins, sorcerers, warlocks, wizards or arcane tricksters, all of whom are already proficient in saves based on their casting stat.

[Galactkaktus]

This question always strikes me as wierd. Since people most of the time put their highest stat in their casting stat since they find it important. And then they question the value of having a higher casting stat. Quite inconsisntent.

[Merudo]

So I am looking at this and thinking, what in the world is the big hurry to get to 20 in a casting stat? Most characters are going to start with a 16 (or even 17) in their main stat for a +3 bonus. You can burn two ASIs and you get all of a whopping +2 to your spell save DC and two more spells you can prepare every day (but no increase in slots available). That just seems underwhelming by itself, but even more so when you see that proficiency bonuses go from +2 to +6 and that's without looking at the natural stat bonuses or any applicable ASIs for classed-NPCs... Even more so when you factor in things like bless, etc...

Is it really such a mechanical advantage to boost to 18 and then to 20, instead of say, taking two half-feats and boosting to 18, but getting all the additional features?


I'm really failing to see the incentive here, but I will admit I am new to 5e and have only a couple games under my belt. Most recently, I was casting grease and thinking, these monsters are beating DC 13 pretty easily, would DC 14 make even the slightest f-ing difference?? At this point, I'd rather get resilient (con) and massively boost that saving throw, than pick up +2 int.

There are some advantages beyond a mere +1 to DC & +1 prepared spells.

Spending an ASI on Wisdom also improves Wisdom saves and the Perception skill.

Spending an ASI on Charisma also increases social skills, which can be quite valuable.

Some classes/subclasses provide additional bonuses from improvement to the caster stat. The Bard gets an extra Bardic Inspiration, the Light Cleric gets more Warding Flares, the Warlock does more damage with Agonizing Blast, etc.

However, I am of the opinion that people over-value a +1 to save DC, and under-value feats in general.

People need to keep in mind that a +1 to DC will only come into play in 1 out of 20 saving throws on average. Depending on your spells, that may be not much.

More importantly, your typical caster will be concentrating on a spell most of the time, as concentration spells tend to be the most efficient and powerful spells available. So if your caster receives damage somewhat frequently, the Warcaster or Res(Con) feats can tremendously improve the effectiveness of your character - not having to recast the spell saves both a spell slot and an action.

Inspiring Leader & Healer can provide tons of HP for free, and scale really well in large parties, or parties with numerous minions. A +10 temp hp to every party member every short rest can be obscene.

I believe that most casters are better off with one of these feats than a plain +2 to a casting stat. That said, avoid half-feats unless you got stuck with an uneven casting stat at character creation - they tend to be quite weak.

[Galactkaktus]

For raw save DC %, I suspect that many builds would get more mileage out of the Lucky feat.

You can't use lucky for saving throws made by other creatures.

[Merudo]

You can't use lucky for saving throws made by other creatures.

You are right, I guess I was thinking of Portent. Sorry about that.