[Spoilers for 1131] Concerning Greg

[unbeliever536]

Is he dead or not?

We already had it pointed out to us pretty explicitly in the hallway fight's wrap-up that it's hard to tell the difference between a vampire dying and a vampire running away in mist form. We also never saw Greg's eyes go to X's, which we've seen for most other vampire deaths. Furthermore, from a storytelling perspective, the Greg/Roy conflict is still largely unresolved, and Belkar's arc in this section of the story seems to be incomplete. Finally, it'd be a little weird for the Exarch to serve as the final boss of the book.

Presumably we'll find out one way or another in the next couple of strips - perhaps Hilgya will attempt a Resurrection and fail, costing the party their Durkon-revival money (or not), or they'll simply go to the Council of Clans and discover Greg there (or not). At the moment, though, my money's on "alive". but with negative hit points

Thoughts?

Ed:

I should add for clarity that I at least don't think the scenario I described above would undercut Durkon's achievements in #1130 in any way; he just saved every still-living person in the room, and that will likely have the knock-on effect of saving the world.

[Kish]

Fifty gold says Durkon is no longer undead.

[Sylian]

He's dead; look at the chair, there's dust on it.

[Peelee]

At the moment, though, my money's on "alive".

I'm a sucker for a long shot, but that's just easy money. I'm with Kish and Sylian.

[factotum]

The Giant's comment here makes it clear that he's dead:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23263837&postcount=16

[MartianInvader]

Yeah, it's very hard to justify whatever that visual effect is on the chair if Durkula wasn't destroyed there. It might not be dust - maybe a burn mark or something - but I don't think it would be generated from just misting out.

But does the vampire have two hours to get to a coffin now? And doesn't he have one up there on the Mechane? He doesn't explicitly know it's there, but it wouldn't be hard to guess how the Order got here.

[hamishspence]

But does the vampire have two hours to get to a coffin now? And doesn't he have one up there on the Mechane? He doesn't explicitly know it's there, but it wouldn't be hard to guess how the Order got here.

Durkon was created by Malack as a "quick rise vampire" rather than a regular one:


the vampires created by the quick-rise spell (i.e. all the others seen so far) are dead as soon as they hit 0 hp (like most undead). I'm treating it like it is the bond with the coffin that keeps them from dying the moment they hit 0 hp the way most other undead do, rather than an inherent property of their vampire body.
If he never made a coffin while on the Mechane (remember, D&D vampires don't need to rest in coffins during the day - they just need to stay out of the sunlight) - then he's dead - which is probably why he "dusted" because quick-rise vampires do that. Hence, no worries about "if you pull the stake out, they come back to life" like you have with regular vampires:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm

Driving a wooden stake through a vampire’s heart instantly slays the monster. However, it returns to life if the stake is removed, unless the body is destroyed.

As a "quick rise vampire" - the body turns to dust from anything reducing him to 0 hit points, stakes, and so forth - so no "pull the stake out" problem.

[Peelee]

As a "quick rise vampire" - the body turns to dust from anything reducing him to 0 hit points, stakes, and so forth - so no "pull the stake out" problem.

Supporting evidence for this: the pile of dust where he was sitting.

[hamishspence]

And thanks to Malack's staff, Durkula had no need to hide from sunlight anyway.

[denthor]

And thanks to Malack's staff, Durkula had no need to hide from sunlight anyway.

Has anybody spotted the staff in any of the fight scenes? That is s lot of gold.

[Selvarin]

He's dead; look at the chair, there's dust on it.

He died, but in so doing was redeemed. He, himself, rid the world of an evil. Thor must be proud of his sacrifice.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Has anybody spotted the staff in any of the fight scenes? That is s lot of gold.

Roy snapped it and threw it in the new High Priestess of Hel's face back at the Godsmoot.

Besides necromantic magic items don't have a lot of resale value in a Bastion of Law and Good.

[unbeliever536]

The Giant's comment here makes it clear that he's dead:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23263837&postcount=16

I'm on mobile and so can't follow that link. Can someone quote it?

[hamishspence]

I'm on mobile and so can't follow that link. Can someone quote it?

The quote is:

Malack does have a coffin, it's just not within range. So he follows the normal vampire rules, while the vampires created by the quick-rise spell (i.e. all the others seen so far) are dead as soon as they hit 0 hp (like most undead). I'm treating it like it is the bond with the coffin that keeps them from dying the moment they hit 0 hp the way most other undead do, rather than an inherent property of their vampire body.

And yes, that's so I don't have to draw a whole bunch of empty armor/robes in every scene.

[Prinygod]

Durkon was created by Malack as a "quick rise vampire" rather than a regular one:


If he never made a coffin while on the Mechane (remember, D&D vampires don't need to rest in coffins during the day - they just need to stay out of the sunlight) - then he's dead - which is probably why he "dusted" because quick-rise vampires do that. Hence, no worries about "if you pull the stake out, they come back to life" like you have with regular vampires:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm


As a "quick rise vampire" - the body turns to dust from anything reducing him to 0 hit points, stakes, and so forth - so no "pull the stake out" problem.

Unless a certain some ones made a coffin for Durkon because a certain high priest told them he was dead so they would stop asking questions ;)

[redjinx]

I’m thinking it’s likely that Belkar is going to figure out vaguely what happened and Roy will believe him, cementing the little psychopath’s improving relationship with the rest of the party. I also foresee issues with reviving him whether they catch on or not, because their best source of clericosity is going to be Hilgya, who definitely has some major unresolved issues. Ah, what do I know? The Giant is, as Cpt. Ironfoundersson would put it, d*mn good. Much better storyteller than I am. Anyway, dead or not, Durkon’s not gone forever; I’ll bet all my internet points on it.

[Ruck]

People keep saying "It's difficult to tell the difference between mistform and ash," but I don't think it is. Mist is lighter and also clearly has a pair of red eyes somewhere on it.

[ThePhantasm]

Your spoiler warning is for the wrong page.

[unbeliever536]

People keep saying "It's difficult to tell the difference between mistform and ash," but I don't think it is. Mist is lighter and also clearly has a pair of red eyes somewhere on it.

I'm not saying we, the readers, can't tell the difference (or that there is no visible difference), just that Haley commented that she had trouble with it, so a character making the mistake wouldn't be unreasonable. It's plausible that the eyes are just a mark for the readers, for example.

All that said, it does seem pretty clear from his forum posts (thanks to hamish & co for quoting them, by the way) that the Giant intends us to treat Greg as dead* after this strip. Does "the same day" count as "within the next couple of strips"? :smalltongue:

* Wording left deliberately open so I can still say "called it!" on the off chance his posts today turn out to be a misdirect.


Your spoiler warning is for the wrong page.

Did you miss the arc where the strip numbers inexplicably decremented instead of incrementing? It ran all through Negative June, after all. :smalltongue:

[Ruck]

I'm not saying we, the readers, can't tell the difference (or that there is no visible difference), just that Haley commented that she had trouble with it, so a character making the mistake wouldn't be unreasonable. It's plausible that the eyes are just a mark for the readers, for example.
But you asked if he was actually dead or not, not whether the characters thought he was dead or not. He's ash. He's dead.

[Fyraltari]

The better question is does DUrkon#2 gets to go to Valhalla as well?
I hope so but that comment on negative energy "squirming" worries me.

Unless a certain some ones made a coffin for Durkon because a certain high priest told them he was dead so they would stop asking questions ;)
Hurak told everyone he was on a mission, not that he was dead and even if he did, I doubt a cenotaph would count for vampiric purposes.

EDIT: Then again, I'm not the one who makes the rules.

[Sylian]

It might not be dust - maybe a burn mark or something - but I don't think it would be generated from just misting out.I considered that possibility and went back and checked previous strips, and I couldn't find any burn marks. You can see the chair clearly here: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1122.html

[Quartz]

The Thundershield ancestral tomb (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0333.html) is nearby so Greg could reform there.

[factotum]

The Thundershield ancestral tomb (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0333.html) is nearby so Greg could reform there.

He couldn't, because he doesn't have a coffin there.

[RatElemental]

Nobody mentioned this, but Hilgya's domination ended as soon as Greg/Dukon was staked too, which is yet further evidence.

[Quartz]

He couldn't, because he doesn't have a coffin there.

Not that we know of.

[Sylian]

Not that we know of.If he did, wouldn't Durkon/Clone Durkon tell Belkar about it before letting Belkar stab him?

[Werbaer]

The better question is does DUrkon#2 gets to go to Valhalla as well?
If he has an afterlife at all:
He died with honor, so he isn't condemned to go to Hel.
Instead, he goes to the afterlife of the goddess he worhshipped (Hel).

[brian 333]

If he has an afterlife at all:
He died with honor, so he isn't condemned to go to Hel.
Instead, he goes to the afterlife of the goddess he worhshipped (Hel).

The vampire spirit is destroyed. It has ceased to exist. RAW says a vampire at 0 HP turns gaseous and must return to its coffin within 2 hours. The Giant has posted that the lack of a coffin means it is destroyed like any other undead with 0 HP.

There is no afteflife for the negative energy spirit. At best it gets two hours in gaseous form.

[Peelee]

Not that we know of.

I somehow doubt that Durkon's actions here will be rendered meaningless by the vampire saying, "aha! I am returned after going back to my unknown coffin, which I had not laid in yet and just happened to share the name of my host! With no foreshadowing, I am saved!"

[Rogar Demonblud]

You can't just use any coffin for reforming anyway. It has to be magically altered to work.

No, the rules don't say how that works. Again.

[brian 333]

You can't just use any coffin for reforming anyway. It has to be magically altered to work.

No, the rules don't say how that works. Again.

Actually, the rules say you have to lie dead in it for three days. The quick-vamp spell is a creation of The Giant, so the rules don't cover the situation in which a vampire has no coffin except to mention that vampires are destroyed if they cannot get to its coffin in two hours after reaching 0 HP.

Malack seemed to think he could fabricate a coffin for Durkula, but exactly how that would have been done is never addressed.

[Rogar Demonblud]

It's in the books that a vampire can create a replacement coffin if the heroes sanctify the previous one. They just don't say how.

[Peelee]

It's in the books that a vampire can create a replacement coffin if the heroes sanctify the previous one. They just don't say how.

Treat it like a physics textbook. "If a vampire's coffin is destroyed, it can be replaced. The rest of the exercise is left for the student."

[Rogar Demonblud]

Which, D&D being D&D, you'd think would mean somebody wrote up a spell for it in one of the undead sourcebooks.

Really, how often does D&D leave rules unwritten for anything besides social interaction?

[Peelee]

Which, D&D being D&D, you'd think would mean somebody wrote up a spell for it in one of the undead sourcebooks.

Really, how often does D&D leave rules unwritten for anything besides social interaction?

Well, let's be fair here, they based 5e on the concept of leaving rules unwritten. No slight intended to 5e here,
it's very nicely streamlined.

[factotum]

It's in the books that a vampire can create a replacement coffin if the heroes sanctify the previous one. They just don't say how.

Well, since the "link" to the original coffin is formed by the vampire lying in it for three days, maybe that's all they have to do with the new one?

[Kish]

And now I'm picturing a coffin, from which emerges a muttering sound, "Bored, bored, so bored..."

[dmc91356]

And now people are staring at me, wondering why I am laughing at a screen.

[brian 333]

And now I'm picturing a coffin, from which emerges a muttering sound, "Bored, bored, so bored..."

Best post of the day!

[Snails]

The vampire spirit is destroyed. It has ceased to exist. RAW says a vampire at 0 HP turns gaseous and must return to its coffin within 2 hours. The Giant has posted that the lack of a coffin means it is destroyed like any other undead with 0 HP.

There is no afteflife for the negative energy spirit. At best it gets two hours in gaseous form.

That makes sense enough, but...


True Death (Su): Undead slain by a hunter of the dead of 5th level or higher, either by melee attacks or spells, can never rise again as undead. They are forever destroyed.

...from the Hunter of the Dead prestige class in 3.5 Complete Warrior splatbook.

By implication, there can exist a spell like "Resurrect Undead", even if such a spell is not listed in the Core books (or any book that I have read).

[Kish]

I thought the implication was that a hunter of the dead could sever a lich's connection to its phylactery/disable a vampire's ability to regenerate in their coffin by simply reducing the lich/vampire to 0 hit points.

[hroþila]

If Revive Undead from Libris Mortis exists in this universe, that could imply negative energy undead spirits do have some kind of afterundeath.

[RatElemental]

That makes sense enough, but...



...from the Hunter of the Dead prestige class in 3.5 Complete Warrior splatbook.

By implication, there can exist a spell like "Resurrect Undead", even if such a spell is not listed in the Core books (or any book that I have read).

There actually is a spell in Libris Mortis called restore undeath that raises a destroyed undead creature back to the state it was in before being destroyed.

[Prinygod]

I somehow doubt that Durkon's actions here will be rendered meaningless by the vampire saying, "aha! I am returned after going back to my unknown coffin, which I had not laid in yet and just happened to share the name of my host! With no foreshadowing, I am saved!"

Except it could be an interesting story if Durkin finds himself undead in control of the vampire, one who might return. There is some foreshadowing into that its stated that he could gain a coffin. And that he has family burial ground. Imagin Durkon wanting to destroyed him self but not being sure if it would count a dishonorable death. Does he risk his afterlife to keep the vampire gone, or risk the vampire taking back control before he can find an honorable death.

[Rogar Demonblud]

"Being a dwarf means doing your duty, even if it makes you miserable. Especially if it makes you miserable."

Killing an undead monstrosity is his duty. Everything else is secondary, including the afterlife.

[RatElemental]

Except it could be an interesting story if Durkin finds himself undead in control of the vampire, one who might return. There is some foreshadowing into that its stated that he could gain a coffin. And that he has family burial ground. Imagin Durkon wanting to destroyed him self but not being sure if it would count a dishonorable death. Does he risk his afterlife to keep the vampire gone, or risk the vampire taking back control before he can find an honorable death.

Durkon had already had an honorable death and only wasn't in Valhalla because of how vampires work. The negative energy spirit that was overwhelmed by Durkon's personality and became a virtually identical copy of Durkon either ceases to exist when the vampire is destroyed, will eventually shift back to being Greg, or just had an honorable death just now.

[unbeliever536]

I somehow doubt that Durkon's actions here will be rendered meaningless by the vampire saying, "aha! I am returned after going back to my unknown coffin, which I had not laid in yet and just happened to share the name of my host! With no foreshadowing, I am saved!"

I suppose it could be argued that saving the lives of one's wife and child, as well as the five people who possess the knowledge and will to save several million people from eternal and arbitrary damnation, is an act entirely without meaning if the person threatening them does not have the decency to stay dead.

[Prinygod]

"Being a dwarf means doing your duty, even if it makes you miserable. Especially if it makes you miserable."

Killing an undead monstrosity is his duty. Everything else is secondary, including the afterlife.

Oh I have no doubt he would do it if no one stopped him. But what if Wednesday dinner is now proceeded by a Wednesday tomb keeping. It would be the tragic reunion we have come to expect from the giant.

[Prinygod]

Durkon had already had an honorable death and only wasn't in Valhalla because of how vampires work. The negative energy spirit that was overwhelmed by Durkon's personality and became a virtually identical copy of Durkon either ceases to exist when the vampire is destroyed, will eventually shift back to being Greg, or just had an honorable death just now.

We have seen the god's fighting over death by mummy rot, splinters, and alcohol poisoning. I'm not even sure they know what happens in this situation, let alone Durkon.

[RatElemental]

We have seen the god's fighting over death by mummy rot, splinters, and alcohol poisoning. I'm not even sure they know what happens in this situation, let alone Durkon.

:smallconfused:

Durkon died after being grappled by his opponent in a duel to the death, of exsanguination. While shielding the rest of his allies from that same combatant, including posthumously. If Hel took that to a court and tried to argue Durkon died dishonorably/while not in combat I don't think she'd get very far.

[Quartz]

With no foreshadowing, I am saved!"

But there has been foreshadowing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0333.html).

[factotum]

But there has been foreshadowing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0333.html).

All that tells us is that Durkon was going to return to Dwarven lands while dead, and he already did that. Him having an anciestral tomb does *not* mean that he has a coffin in it--it's a bit presumptuous to have a coffin put into your tomb several centuries before you're likely to need it!

[Stabbey]

Except it could be an interesting story if Durkin finds himself undead in control of the vampire, one who might return. There is some foreshadowing into that its stated that he could gain a coffin. And that he has family burial ground. Imagin Durkon wanting to destroyed him self but not being sure if it would count a dishonorable death. Does he risk his afterlife to keep the vampire gone, or risk the vampire taking back control before he can find an honorable death.

None of which changes that such an event would RUIN the story so far because it has not been foreshadowed or set up, it RUINS the moment of Durkon's sacrifice, and it would be repetitive by having a second "Durkon must choose whether to sacrifice himself" scene - third if you count his first death.

[KorvinStarmast]

All that tells us is that Durkon was going to return to Dwarven lands while dead, and he already did that. Him having an anciestral tomb does *not* mean that he has a coffin in it--it's a bit presumptuous to have a coffin put into your tomb several centuries before you're likely to need it! Some people call that good planning. (My mother in law has already pre purchased her coffin through a funeral planning policy. )

[Prinygod]

None of which changes that such an event would RUIN the story so far because it has not been foreshadowed or set up, it RUINS the moment of Durkon's sacrifice, and it would be repetitive by having a second "Durkon must choose whether to sacrifice himself" scene - third if you count his first death.

Durkon didn't sacrifice himself, he died in combat. He didn't choose to die he lost a fight. And even if you count it as a sacrifice it was already ruined when his corpse got up and almost doomed all of dwarven-kind. Also I'm not sure its much of a sacrifice when you know for a fact you have a kick ass afterlife waiting for you and you are one diamond away from coming back for round 2. No Durkin hasn't willing sacrificed anything yet other than the time he would have rather of spent in his homeland, and even that was his choice.

[Prinygod]

:smallconfused:

Durkon died after being grappled by his opponent in a duel to the death, of exsanguination. While shielding the rest of his allies from that same combatant, including posthumously. If Hel took that to a court and tried to argue Durkon died dishonorably/while not in combat I don't think she'd get very far.

That wasn't what I said. That was honorable, letting Belkin kill him probably was honorable. Him hypothetically choosing to destroy himself as a vampire is where it gets contentious. By the way it hasn't actually happened yet I'm not sure why you are getting up in arms over a theory.

[Ruck]

Except it could be an interesting story if Durkin finds himself undead in control of the vampire, one who might return. There is some foreshadowing into that its stated that he could gain a coffin. And that he has family burial ground. Imagin Durkon wanting to destroyed him self but not being sure if it would count a dishonorable death. Does he risk his afterlife to keep the vampire gone, or risk the vampire taking back control before he can find an honorable death.

Lots of things could be interesting stories, but that doesn't mean they make sense for this story.

[Prinygod]

Lots of things could be interesting stories, but that doesn't mean they make sense for this story.
Except I explained the theory how about you actually add something to the discussion.

[Ron Miel]

The Thundershield ancestral tomb (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0333.html) is nearby so Greg could reform there.


He couldn't, because he doesn't have a coffin there.

What if he does? Maybe he's had a coffin and a spot reserved specifically for him for years, and it's his personal coffin. Would that count?

[Ruck]

That wasn't what I said. That was honorable, letting Belkin kill him probably was honorable. Him hypothetically choosing to destroy himself as a vampire is where it gets contentious. By the way it hasn't actually happened yet I'm not sure why you are getting up in arms over a theory.


Except I explained the theory how about you actually add something to the discussion.

Who's getting "up in arms over a theory" again?

Your explanation includes some flat out untrue things about the mechanics of what happened as well as the story itself, so there's not much to add. It doesn't work on any level. And I don't know who "Durkin" or "Belkin" are.

[factotum]

What if he does? Maybe he's had a coffin and a spot reserved specifically for him for years, and it's his personal coffin. Would that count?

Probably not, because D&D vampires seem to need three days lying in the grave to form a link with it--otherwise, Durkula could have just set up a coffin on the Mechane and got himself attuned to that. It seems very unlikely the vampire could attune to a coffin he's never been in, in a tomb his host may have visited but he himself has presumably never seen, just because it happens to have his host's name on it.

[unbeliever536]

Probably not, because D&D vampires seem to need three days lying in the grave to form a link with it--otherwise, Durkula could have just set up a coffin on the Mechane and got himself attuned to that. It seems very unlikely the vampire could attune to a coffin he's never been in, in a tomb his host may have visited but he himself has presumably never seen, just because it happens to have his host's name on it.

OOTS vampires, rather. It's not totally clear from the rules how homeless D&D vampires can better their circumstances.

[Kish]

OOTS vampires, rather. It's not totally clear from the rules how homeless D&D vampires can better their circumstances.
It'd be a pretty classist DM who made moral development dependent on not being homeless.

[Prinygod]

Probably not, because D&D vampires seem to need three days lying in the grave to form a link with it--otherwise, Durkula could have just set up a coffin on the Mechane and got himself attuned to that. It seems very unlikely the vampire could attune to a coffin he's never been in, in a tomb his host may have visited but he himself has presumably never seen, just because it happens to have his host's name on it.

They need 3 days to raise from the dead as vampires. There are no rules to gaining a new coffin, just mentions it can happen. It could be as simple as a vampire declaring a new coffin, so long as its not already owned. Staying 3 days in a coffin is a house rule that the giant may or may not be using.

[hamishspence]

They need 3 days to raise from the dead as vampires.

1d4 days:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm

Create Spawn (Su)
A humanoid or monstrous humanoid slain by a vampire’s energy drain rises as a vampire spawn 1d4 days after burial.

If the vampire instead drains the victim’s Constitution to 0 or lower, the victim returns as a spawn if it had 4 or less HD and as a vampire if it had 5 or more HD.

but The Giant may be going with 3 as the norm.


Staying 3 days in a coffin is a house rule that the giant may or may not be using.

Based on these:


A standard vampire gets three days in the grave to absorb the lion's share of memories, and then takes months to slowly assimilate the rest.

I'm treating it like it is the bond with the coffin that keeps them from dying the moment they hit 0 hp the way most other undead do, rather than an inherent property of their vampire body.

I think it's fairly safe to say that "3 days in a coffin grave bonds the coffin to the vampire" is what The Giant is using.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Statistical average, rounded up. 1d4=2.5=3.

Or at least that's how I took it.

[Ruck]

I imagine most people thought of three days rather than 1d4 days because Malack himself said it. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0878.html)