Does a centaur count as "mounted" for the purposes of wielding a lance?

[Neknoh]

Well, question right there.

Does the UA Centaur count as being on foot or mounted for the purposes of wielding a lance? Got a player wanting to roll up a very classical "knight" and using the centaur race, because they find it an absolutely awesome combo. Rule of cool should allow it, but does RAW or RAI?

[Hears You]

It doesn't work as written, but the lance rules are a little wonky as is. There probably isn't anything too problematic of letting them do it unless they start duel wielding the nonsense, and even then it's just sorta "congrats you finally figured out how to make duel wielding work in 5e"

Basically, it's a little over powered to allow it, but if they're just galloping about in plate with a shield it's really kinda the low end of over powered.

[Thrudd]

I'd think you would need to specify movement of a certain distance and speed in order to get benefits. Just sitting still on horseback doesn't give a lance any power, it is only from charging. So for the centaur, I'd say they need to move a certain minimum distance in a straight line before the attack to count as a "charge" and get the mounted benefit.

[Desteplo]

I say do it. Rule of cool and also.. mechanically the same
-a small creature on a mount? No problem with a lance
-you are technically the same thing as a medium centaur

[Dr. Cliché]

You could always mount a centaur on another centaur and have the top one use a lance. :smallbiggrin:

[LudicSavant]

The only thing you can count on regarding the UA centaur rules is that they will make no sense at all.

[Red Bear]

you should allow it, just say that the armor he wears comes with a rest (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lance_rest)

[MaxWilson]

Well, question right there.

Does the UA Centaur count as being on foot or mounted for the purposes of wielding a lance? Got a player wanting to roll up a very classical "knight" and using the centaur race, because they find it an absolutely awesome combo. Rule of cool should allow it, but does RAW or RAI?

Not by (UA) RAW, and probably not by logic either: centaur anatomy is quite different from a man mounted on a horse. If you flipped a centaur's body around so that its torso was at the back end of the horse's body instead of the front it would make sense for him to be able to rest a lance on his own forequarters and use it normally, but with the human body at the front, nope. Doesn't work and shouldn't work.

A centaur is more like a tall, athletic man wearing a Victorian bustle skirt with horse legs attached to it than it is like a knight on horseback.

[Battlebooze]

You could always mount a centaur on another centaur and have the top one use a lance. :smallbiggrin:

I'm not comfortable playing these kind of campaigns. TMI

[Waterdeep Merch]

Since you're not mounted, the answer would be "no". But I'd totally allow it. Couched lances are as dangerous as they are thanks to a combination of greater speed and weight contributing to much greater force than a foot soldier with a spear (and the size and weight of a lance are the reason you normally have disadvantage for using them unmounted in 5e), both things that a centaur naturally has. Logically, they may actually be better at it, too, if the lance is properly weighted to take advantage of a centaur's weight distribution- they can more easily shift their entire body mass forward at the point of impact, something knights would do but have certain physical constraints stopping them from going too crazy (saddle, not wishing to fall, not unbalancing the horse, the horse's giant head being in the way, etc).

Despite that, for balance I'd probably remove the 'advantage on smaller creatures' part of the deal. I'm actually totally okay with a 10 ft. reach d12 one hander if you absolutely had to play a centaur to even do it.

It also reminds me of the centaur knights from Shining Force. And I love Shining Force.

[MaxWilson]

Despite that, for balance I'd probably remove the 'advantage on smaller creatures' part of the deal.

That's part of the Mounted Combatant feat, not the lance rules.

[GlenSmash!]

You could always mount a centaur on another centaur and have the top one use a lance. :smallbiggrin:

Do you want little centaurs? Because this is how you get little centaurs!

[Waterdeep Merch]

That's part of the Mounted Combatant feat, not the lance rules.
Ah, so it is! I have no qualms with it, then. Just disallow Mounted Combatant from applying to the centaur and it's reasonably balanced. Since centaurs already have natural logistical issues involving navigating dungeons, swimming, climbing, and any number of other D&D staples, I think offering a higher base damage one-hander is a perfectly reasonable perk.

[Neknoh]

Not by (UA) RAW, and probably not by logic either: centaur anatomy is quite different from a man mounted on a horse. If you flipped a centaur's body around so that its torso was at the back end of the horse's body instead of the front it would make sense for him to be able to rest a lance on his own forequarters and use it normally, but with the human body at the front, nope. Doesn't work and shouldn't work.

A centaur is more like a tall, athletic man wearing a Victorian bustle skirt with horse legs attached to it than it is like a knight on horseback.

A lance is locked in place underneath the arm (between the upper arm and the body), possibly supported by an Arrette de Cuirass and an Arrette de Lance (one is a hook mounted to your plate cuirass, the other is a disc mounted on the lance handle to sit between the hand and the arm/torso pinch in order to prevent the lance from slipping through, in combination, they effectively lock the lance in place).

The general force of the lance comes from the combined mass and speed of the horse going forward, it is the job of the knight (and any mechanisms applied to cuirass, lance and saddle) to try to be as stable as possible during impact so as not to unhorse himself, bend backwards or let the lance slip through his grip and "pinch".

A centaur, logically, does not need to worry about being unhorsed, there is no need for a saddle to hold him from falling off his own body, meaning that if he's wearing the same armour as a regular knight, he is anatomically able to transfer more % of the total force than said knight.


Lances are not somehow mounted to the front-part of the horse like some medieval 50-cal machinegun on a jeep.

[MaxWilson]

A lance is locked in place underneath the arm (between the upper arm and the body), possibly supported by an Arrette de Cuirass and an Arrette de Lance (one is a hook mounted to your plate cuirass, the other is a disc mounted on the lance handle to sit between the hand and the arm/torso pinch in order to prevent the lance from slipping through, in combination, they effectively lock the lance in place).

The general force of the lance comes from the combined mass and speed of the horse going forward, it is the job of the knight (and any mechanisms applied to cuirass, lance and saddle) to try to be as stable as possible during impact so as not to unhorse himself, bend backwards or let the lance slip through his grip and "pinch".

A centaur, logically, does not need to worry about being unhorsed, there is no need for a saddle to hold him from falling off his own body, meaning that if he's wearing the same armour as a regular knight, he is anatomically able to transfer more % of the total force than said knight.

Lances are not somehow mounted to the front-part of the horse like some medieval 50-cal machinegun on a jeep.

Oh really? I wasn't aware of that. Hmmm. That makes it kind of strange that (in 5E rules) require two hands to use while unmounted, because if I'm understanding you correctly it sounds like an infantryman could use it one-handed just as easily as a cavalryman.

[JoeJ]

Oh really? I wasn't aware of that. Hmmm. That makes it kind of strange that (in 5E rules) require two hands to use while unmounted, because if I'm understanding you correctly it sounds like an infantryman could use it one-handed just as easily as a cavalryman.

By holding it under their arm and running into people?

[Neknoh]

Oh really? I wasn't aware of that. Hmmm. That makes it kind of strange that (in 5E rules) require two hands to use while unmounted, because if I'm understanding you correctly it sounds like an infantryman could use it one-handed just as easily as a cavalryman.

Nope, on horseback, a lance (post the 11th century) is too long to be used effectively one-handed pretty much at all, you don't swing or stab with it, you lock it as firmly under your arm as possible and use the acceleration of your horse to bring it through the chest of your enemy. The only manouvering you do whilst it's locked by your arm (and later by your armour using a lance rest as well) is pointing the tip at where you want it to go.

This is what a lance looks like on horseback

https://youtu.be/Xs7UJ5pMKJM?t=52

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4MUnjv1mTM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4rwWZie8Hw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3euI3xd12qM

All of this is based off of historical manuscripts for training with the lance.

And some of it in action.

https://youtu.be/0namE16IgOw?t=58


There is no way you're effectively swinging that around like a quarterstaff, it's just too heavy, and none of the above are proper "heavy lance" of the mid-15th century and onward

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f2/Gendarmes.jpg/440px-Gendarmes.jpg

https://myarmoury.com/images/features/pic_lancepistol01.jpg

EDIT:

A MUCH better look at the lance of the late 15th century and a very well made copy of a late 15th century Italian harness.

https://youtu.be/wL_yybJ-tNo

[MaxWilson]

Based on information in this thread it also sounds like the lance probably shouldn't be eligible to make multiple attacks on the same target. Extra Attack + Action Surge can let you hit a given enemy up to 8 times with your lance in 6 seconds, but imagining what would have to happen in order for that to work makes it clear that it's absurd.

[Waterdeep Merch]

Based on information in this thread it also sounds like the lance probably shouldn't be eligible to make multiple attacks on the same target. Extra Attack + Action Surge can let you hit a given enemy up to 8 times with your lance in 6 seconds, but imagining what would have to happen in order for that to work makes it clear that it's absurd.
It's more a problem with the way lances work in general in 5e. To be historically accurate, they'd probably have to do much more damage and couldn't reasonably be used without a full dash to gain momentum.

But that would be fiddly from a gameplay perspective, so we're left to either imagine that they're sitting there poking with the lance, or try to conjure a better mental image where they're doubling back and charging a lot, or that extra attacks are just seeing how gruesome the initial blow was.

I'm sort of unhappy with its implementation, but I like the imagery of a couched lance too much to care most of the time.

[Neknoh]

Rolling several attacks on a charge to figure out just hos well you landed your blow is not that much of a stretch since they are so hard to land perfectly with.

A lance glancing off to the side might still tear open plate armour like a can opener (happened to Dr Tobias Capwell, the forearm of his famous black harness got completely torn open by a missed lance blow), meaning that something that hits the upper arm or hipbone or helmet might do 1d12 damage, whereas a Charge + AS + everything else for 8 attacks represent the car crash forces (measured by Dr Capwell in proper jousting with real, iron coronel lances and wearing real armour) of slamming your lance straight in to the cheat or shoulder or gut of whatever you're charging.

See the attacks as several rolls for a single big hit rather than a Star Platinum style attack.

[Sigreid]

It's more a problem with the way lances work in general in 5e. To be historically accurate, they'd probably have to do much more damage and couldn't reasonably be used without a full dash to gain momentum.

But that would be fiddly from a gameplay perspective, so we're left to either imagine that they're sitting there poking with the lance, or try to conjure a better mental image where they're doubling back and charging a lot, or that extra attacks are just seeing how gruesome the initial blow was.

I'm sort of unhappy with its implementation, but I like the imagery of a couched lance too much to care most of the time.

Or bundle the attacks. Meaning roll all the attacks normally but pretend they are 1 attack for results. So the level 20 fighter doesn't hit more times with the lance, but based on how many to hit rolls are successful it's far more devastating. (Resolve each attack individually but describe a hell of a hit)

[Joe the Rat]

Don't forget you're dealing with mongolian charger-sized centaurs for all of your visuals.


It's more a problem with the way lances work in general in 5e. To be historically accurate, they'd probably have to do much more damage and couldn't reasonably be used without a full dash to gain momentum.

But that would be fiddly from a gameplay perspective, so we're left to either imagine that they're sitting there poking with the lance, or try to conjure a better mental image where they're doubling back and charging a lot, or that extra attacks are just seeing how gruesome the initial blow was.

I'm sort of unhappy with its implementation, but I like the imagery of a couched lance too much to care most of the time.

I'm thinking proper mounted charge, setting, and for the fun of it tourney jousting rules would be a nice addition.
Particularly the tourney jousting.

[Neknoh]

Don't forget you're dealing with mongolian charger-sized centaurs for all of your visuals.



I'm thinking proper mounted charge, setting, and for the fun of it tourney jousting rules would be a nice addition.
Particularly the tourney jousting.


Maybe throw in some rules for foot-based polearm fighting and half-swording as well? Oh I feel my fingers burning! To DM's Guild!


EDIT: As to size, european war-horses were not much larger than a large Mongolian Charger.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horses_in_the_Middle_Ages#Size_of_war_horses
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolian_horse#Characteristics

Lance use existing in the 11th century and onwards, suggesting a horse of 14 hands to be perfectly fine for it, and a war horse of the 16th century being about 15 hands in height is not that much larger.

[Waterdeep Merch]

Don't forget you're dealing with mongolian charger-sized centaurs for all of your visuals.



I'm thinking proper mounted charge, setting, and for the fun of it tourney jousting rules would be a nice addition.
Particularly the tourney jousting.
In my homebrew campaign, I'm actually about to hold my second jousting tournament about four weeks from now. I handle it with single blows, five lances- you must deal 10 damage minimum to break a lance (worth 1 point), and you have to succeed on a Constitution (Land Vehicles) check versus the damage dealt or be unhorsed and lose instantly. My players have been buzzing about it, since it's probably their second favorite event after the melee.

[DerficusRex]

By holding it under their arm and running into people?
But it only works if you have a retainer NPC following you around banging coconuts together.


Maybe throw in some rules for foot-based polearm fighting and half-swording as well? Oh I feel my fingers burning! To DM's Guild!
This sounds like an excellent idea.

[Neknoh]

But it only works if you have a retainer NPC following you around banging coconuts together.


This sounds like an excellent idea.

So, when writing classes and feats for something like DM's guild, are words like "Feats" and similar actually allowed to use? A setting book wouldn't be much of one if it didn't include some classes, races and feats (as well as tournament rules and magic).

Although I guess this is a question for later, once all of the setting stuff has been written and rules need to be finalized.

[Rerem115]

Shadiversity actually did a video on this, and surprisingly, his answer was a resounding "no'".

Basically, the the Newtonian physics, i.e., the reaction of a lance impact is distributed between the horse and rider, so neither would be unduly harmed by the devastating force, while a centaur would have to take the entire impact on its own spine, with a much increased chance for injury.

So, couched lances would be a big no-no for centaurs, but Shadiversity goes on to explain that uncouched lances (in 5e parlance, 2 handed lances and 1 handed or 2 handed spears) and 2 handed polearms like halberds would also work very well.

Link to the video is right here:
https://youtu.be/lNRf9VVAHIk

[MaxWilson]

Shadiversity actually did a video on this, and surprisingly, his answer was a resounding "no'".

Basically, the the Newtonian physics, i.e., the reaction of a lance impact is distributed between the horse and rider, so neither would be unduly harmed by the devastating force, while a centaur would have to take the entire impact on its own spine, with a much increased chance for injury.

So, couched lances would be a big no-no for centaurs, but Shadiversity goes on to explain that uncouched lances (in 5e parlance, 2 handed lances and 1 handed or 2 handed spears) and 2 handed polearms like halberds would also work very well.

Link to the video is right here:
https://youtu.be/lNRf9VVAHIk

It's a good video, but I think you are overrepresenting the degree of certainty in the conclusion. E.g. 8:36-9:10, "So in my opinion, spear for their charges over lance. Now, you know, if lances are actually not as dangerous as--I wonder, but still, in the research... there's a full article where a guy was doing tests about mounted charges without stirrups and stuff like that where he talks about the recoil and impact, how you have to really roll with it...--but if the centaur is just [unintelligible] enough to just power through it, then a lance could still be useful."

So there's plenty of room there for a DM to allow lance use by centaurs if they want to.

Anyway, thanks for sharing.

[Rerem115]

Yeah, he almost always includes that caveat in his fantasy analysis videos. You can always justify something if you invoke the "it's fantasy" clause.

[Neknoh]

If a rider can do it locked in a saddle without snapping his spine, then a centaur in the same armour should be able to as well, leaning into it would cause an even greater force distribution across their entire body.

Now, worth noting is that a lance impact places a huge amount of stress on the body of the horse, so much so that the horse is physically moved to the side during a joust as the lance impacts with the other rider.

[Waterdeep Merch]

Shadiversity actually did a video on this, and surprisingly, his answer was a resounding "no'".

Basically, the the Newtonian physics, i.e., the reaction of a lance impact is distributed between the horse and rider, so neither would be unduly harmed by the devastating force, while a centaur would have to take the entire impact on its own spine, with a much increased chance for injury.

So, couched lances would be a big no-no for centaurs, but Shadiversity goes on to explain that uncouched lances (in 5e parlance, 2 handed lances and 1 handed or 2 handed spears) and 2 handed polearms like halberds would also work very well.

Link to the video is right here:
https://youtu.be/lNRf9VVAHIk
This can actually be accounted for, and makes for an interesting detail. A centaur would need some sort of brace between its human back and its horse back, in order to absorb the recoil and redistribute it. A bent piece of spring steel, maybe a soft wood core, connecting to a rigid harness that reaches as high as the shoulder blades and ends near the back haunches. Straps to keep it in place. Definitely more of a heavy armor thing- perhaps medium armor with breastplate or half-plate, but not really do-able with anything less rigid. Makes the absolute most sense with plate mail.

This 'charging harness' might have some lighter forms, something made of bone and leather, used by more tribal centaurs alongside spears and such. A lot like a composite bow. It's a sensible thing for them to invent, and fits the technology centaurs are usually seen to possess. And it's kind of a cool detail to point out.

[Rerem115]

If a rider can do it locked in a saddle without snapping his spine, then a centaur in the same armour should be able to as well, leaning into it would cause an even greater force distribution across their entire body.

Now, worth noting is that a lance impact places a huge amount of stress on the body of the horse, so much so that the horse is physically moved to the side during a joust as the lance impacts with the other rider.

The big issue that a centaur would have with a lance is there is no stopgap if they hit with too much force; a knight is perfectly capable of leaning back in his saddle or even falling off his horse in the case of a great impact, while a centaur probably couldn't bend their spine much more than perpendicular to their horse half, so there's much greater risk of injury if they find that they've bitten off more than they could chew.

[MaxWilson]

This seems like an opportune moment to point out that charging is definitely a thing for centaurs in 5E, because it's right there in their MM stat block:



Charge. If the centaur moves at least 30 ft. straight toward a target and then hits it with a pike attack on the same turn, the target takes an extra 10 (3d6) piercing damage.


Apparently they have whatever physiology and equipment is necessary to withstand the forces involved. Note further that the MM centaur is unarmored: its AC 12 apparently comes entirely from Dex.

Of course, MM centaurs and UA centaurs are not the same thing...

[Waterdeep Merch]

This seems like an opportune moment to point out that charging is definitely a thing for centaurs in 5E, because it's right there in their MM stat block:



Apparently they have whatever physiology and equipment is necessary to withstand the forces involved. Note further that the MM centaur is unarmored: its AC 12 apparently comes entirely from Dex.

Of course, MM centaurs and UA centaurs are not the same thing...
You know, we've been assuming that there's no physiological difference between a centaur and a half-man half-horse that's fused at the spine. What if they have specialized musculature around their back, capable of absorbing and redistributing recoil? Maybe this is why they don't allow people to ride them- they'd have to sit on these muscles, which might really hurt and risk permanent injury for the centaur.

[Derpaligtr]

Not by (UA) RAW, and probably not by logic either: centaur anatomy is quite different from a man mounted on a horse. If you flipped a centaur's body around so that its torso was at the back end of the horse's body instead of the front it would make sense for him to be able to rest a lance on his own forequarters and use it normally, but with the human body at the front, nope. Doesn't work and shouldn't work.

A centaur is more like a tall, athletic man wearing a Victorian bustle skirt with horse legs attached to it than it is like a knight on horseback.

A centaur also wouldn't have the imagination to wield a lance, or duel wield two lances (lanci ha).

Now, the mantaur... I wonder if he could?

https://i.imgur.com/FHcKIzN.jpg