Is allowing permanent PaO a terrible idea?

[gogogome]

My table has been experiencing a power creep of sorts. As players get more experienced they're bringing in more and more powerful builds.

I have banned casting PaO twice for permanent duration in the past, but now I think it's ok to remove the ban.

So... what are some consequences for allowing this trick?

It gives wizards a crazy high save DC, but since there's a way to combat all the save-or-die spells through immunities and spell resistance, I don't think this is too much of an issue. Am I wrong?
It gives mundanes crazy high STR and DEX stats, boosting their damage output and AC phenomenally. But in the age of DMM:Persist Clerics and uberchargers, I don't think it matters. In fact I think it might be a good thing that PaO lets standard non-charging mundanes compete with Uberchargers and Clericzillas in terms of damage to the point players are willing to try different mundane builds.

What am I not seeing? Is something gonna pop up and bite me in the ass?

[noob]

If you are already allowing beholder wizards that casts 10 spells per round then nothing bad will come from that change.

[gogogome]

If you are already allowing beholder wizards that casts 10 spells per round then nothing bad will come from that change.

That's a Beholder Mage problem rather than a PaO problem. And yes, no beholder mages in my game at this time.

[noob]

That's a Beholder Mage problem rather than a PaO problem. And yes, no beholder mages in my game at this time.
Do you allow ur priests and retraining?
With those a player get level 9 spells at level 9.
Or do you allow infinite utterance level monk ur priest disciple of the word who can hide completely against whoever is playing and move as an immediate action?

[gogogome]

Do you allow ur priests and retraining?
With those a player get level 9 spells at level 9.

Yes to retraining, no to ur priests. I take fluff seriously in my games and you can't get ur priest fluff unless I give it to you.

[noob]

Yes to retraining, no to ur priests. I take fluff seriously in my games and you can't get ur priest fluff unless I give it to you.

I see nothing particular to ur priest fluff apart from draining power to the uncaring gods which is considered as evil somehow.
It also suggest you can learn on your own how to be ur priest.
Since most settings have uncaring evil gods it makes sense that evil reckless people would learn how to drain the evil power from the evil uncaring gods(who often have the good alignment because the universe itself is equally evil and uncaring)

[gogogome]

I see nothing particular to ur priest fluff apart from draining power to the uncaring gods which is considered as evil somehow.
It also suggest you can learn on your own how to be ur priest.

The character must be trained by another ur-priest.

Unless the campaign calls for it, it won't have an ur-priest. Even if there is one there's no chance a PC is going to be able to hunt one down.

Just to be clear, I'm shutting down ur-preists 70% because of fluff and 30% because of its power.

[noob]

The character must be trained by another ur-priest.

Unless the campaign calls for it, it won't have an ur-priest. Even if there is one there's no chance a PC is going to be able to hunt one down.

Just to be clear, I'm shutting down ur-preists 70% because of fluff and 30% because of its power.
So basically you say there is no ur priests and therefore you can not become one.
I see the fluff is cyclical and unless there is acausal time travelling ur priests are impossible.
also do you allow time travel there is at least two different ways to travel through time in the manuals.
So you forbid ur priests because you disagree with the entry requirements?

[gogogome]

So basically you say there is no ur priests and therefore you can not become one.
I see the fluff is cyclical and unless there is acausal time travelling ur priests are impossible.
also do you allow time travel there is at least two different ways to travel through time in the manuals.

What does all this have to do with PaO?

[noob]

What does all this have to do with PaO?

Just checking the power level.
If the power level is enough high stuff like pao twice for permanent duration is so negligible it can make people laugh while making an ice assassin of a god through the epic feat ignore material components that they got early through being bitten by were creatures for getting epic feats then pao twice for permanent duration is negligible.

[gogogome]

Just checking the power level.
If the power level is enough high stuff like pao twice for permanent duration is so negligible it can make people laugh while making an ice assassin of a god through the epic feat ignore material components that they got early through being bitten by were creatures for getting epic feats.

Strongest build in our game is a DMM:Persist cleric WITHOUT nightsticks. There are no Flaws or any unearthed arcana content in the game. That's our power level. The cleric uses Extend spell to double the amount of spells he can persist, which is a total of 6. The only thing I banned is Consumptive Field for this build.

[noob]

Strongest build in our game is a DMM:Persist cleric WITHOUT nightsticks. There are no Flaws or any unearthed arcana content in the game. That's our power level. The cleric uses Extend spell to double the amount of spells he can persist, which is a total of 6. The only thing I banned is Consumptive Field for this build.
So I guess pao twice is in line since they can already have 6 spells active on their allies permanently so a bunch more is not very significant.

[DeAnno]

Remember that PAO can be dispelled, and even if the CL is very high it'll be stripped off by the first Disjunction. IMO in games where buffstacks get out of control widespread Disjunction use is the natural consequence of that.

[RoboEmperor]

I agree with noob.

PaO is already a super long duration spell making it a candidate for prebuffing. Making it permanent just means noncasters have a use for it instead of only wizards.

In a game where you have a DMM:Persist Cleric, I highly doubt another permanent duration +str/ac spell is gonna do much.

[Bronk]

I have banned casting PaO twice for permanent duration in the past, but now I think it's ok to remove the ban.

I consider the double PaO trick as not working anyway, because it is based on a selective reading of the spell with an incomplete understanding of the rules, but is using it even necessary? Unless you're turning back and forth into a rock, the minimum duration is half a day already.

What you could do instead is highlight the usage of the wish spell from Savage Species as a method to change their race, along with the spellcraft checks to gain the special abilities of the chosen form.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I consider the double PaO trick as not working anyway, because it is based on a selective reading of the spell with an incomplete understanding of the rules,I'm pretty sure you're the one doing the selective reading, etc.

Cast PAO once on a rock to turn it into a hydra, then cast the spell again, same rock-turned-hydra, same resulting creature type. The spell checks to see what the target is. Yep, it's already a hydra, so the result is that the duration is Permanent.

[OgresAreCute]

Double PaO at level 15+ probably isn't much of an issue, but unless my math is completely off it's available as early as level 3 by WBL if you're getting some chump spellcaster to do it for you.

[Bronk]

I'm pretty sure you're the one doing the selective reading, etc.

Cast PAO once on a rock to turn it into a hydra, then cast the spell again, same rock-turned-hydra, same resulting creature type. The spell checks to see what the target is. Yep, it's already a hydra, so the result is that the duration is Permanent.

From the SRD's Polymorph Any Object:

"The duration of the spell depends on how radical a change is made from the original state to its enchanted state."

You turn a rock into a hydra. You cast the spell again... what is the hydra's original state? It's original state is still a rock.

You can test this by looking at the new hydra with True Seeing, which can see the true form of a polymorphed object, and would show a rock, not a hydra.

Anyway, that's why I suggested the Savage Species use of Wish. It straight up does what the players want, and does a better job of it.

[liquidformat]

Strongest build in our game is a DMM:Persist cleric WITHOUT nightsticks. There are no Flaws or any unearthed arcana content in the game. That's our power level. The cleric uses Extend spell to double the amount of spells he can persist, which is a total of 6. The only thing I banned is Consumptive Field for this build.

Why does everyone seem to hate on Unearthed Arcana's alternate class features...

[Segev]

From the SRD's Polymorph Any Object:

"The duration of the spell depends on how radical a change is made from the original state to its enchanted state."

You turn a rock into a hydra. You cast the spell again... what is the hydra's original state? It's original state is still a rock.

You can test this by looking at the new hydra with True Seeing, which can see the true form of a polymorphed object, and would show a rock, not a hydra.

Anyway, that's why I suggested the Savage Species use of Wish. It straight up does what the players want, and does a better job of it.

This is why I use an Elan Psion for the core of my Beholder Mage build, rather than "PAO twice." Elan with 19 Int is same type and higher intelligence, so hits the permanent duration clause without having to use PAO-twice shenanigans.


What is the Savage Species use of wish? Just a suggestion that it lets people change their race?

[Bronk]

This is why I use an Elan Psion for the core of my Beholder Mage build, rather than "PAO twice." Elan with 19 Int is same type and higher intelligence, so hits the permanent duration clause without having to use PAO-twice shenanigans.

I like it!


What is the Savage Species use of wish? Just a suggestion that it lets people change their race?

Well, it's more than a suggestion... Page 150 of SS lists Wish as an alternative to the various rituals of transformation in the chapter. It's listed as a greater effect, but offers instructions, as well as rules for paying a ritual wish caster to do it for you. The end result is the possibility of having access to all of the new forms special abilities, unlike spells in the polymorph line... in fact the default is that you get all the abilities, but if the DM wants to be more restrictive there can be an interaction with the spellcraft skill as well.

[Crake]

Well, it's more than a suggestion... Page 150 of SS lists Wish as an alternative to the various rituals of transformation in the chapter. It's listed as a greater effect, but offers instructions, as well as rules for paying a ritual wish caster to do it for you. The end result is the possibility of having access to all of the new forms special abilities, unlike spells in the polymorph line... in fact the default is that you get all the abilities, but if the DM wants to be more restrictive there can be an interaction with the spellcraft skill as well.

To be fair, the listed "rules" in Savage Species are more like a suggestion, it outright says that doing so should involve risks, so if you're playing in a game where a DC40 spellcraft check is trivial to beat, then you should change the rules to something else that involves some kind of risk.


While this is the quickest method of transformation and potentially the least expensive, it has substantial risks.
The DM may, for instance, require the spellcaster to make a Spellcraft check.

[RoboEmperor]

Why does everyone seem to hate on Unearthed Arcana's alternate class features...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't unearthed arcana let a wizard turn every single spell in the entire game into a transmutation spell? And give summoner wizards standard action summons? And the cleric variant makes favored soul and spirit shaman totally obsolete? etc. etc.?


This is why I use an Elan Psion for the core of my Beholder Mage build, rather than "PAO twice." Elan with 19 Int is same type and higher intelligence, so hits the permanent duration clause without having to use PAO-twice shenanigans.


What is the Savage Species use of wish? Just a suggestion that it lets people change their race?

Savage Species wish is the "legit" way, as in you are going to incur the entire LA and make your PC unplayable. And LA:- races are off limits. On the plus side it actually gives all the Su and SLAs, but as we all know, NOT WORTH LOSING 18 PC LEVELS.

Astral Seed and Mind Switch or True Mind Switch is the next trick to try.

Also the original state argument is wrong.

The duration of the spell depends on how radical a change is made from the original state to its enchanted state.
It's not "how much different the current state is compared to the original state"
It's "how radical a CHANGE IS MADE".
rock to hydra: the change made is RADICAL.
hydra to hydra: the change made is not radical.

in other words, original state means the current state of the target because the duration is dependent on how much the spell changes the target, not how much different it is from the "original state".

[Segev]

The PAOx2 trick is well-known, and controversial. I doubt anybody is going to convince anybody else of its (in)validity here, and wasting time arguing it isn't helping the topic. Let's acknowledge that it exists, and some will interpret it to work while others will not.

What's being asked, here, is whether any form of PAO being permanent is game-breaking.

[OgresAreCute]

The PAOx2 trick is well-known, and controversial. I doubt anybody is going to convince anybody else of its (in)validity here, and wasting time arguing it isn't helping the topic. Let's acknowledge that it exists, and some will interpret it to work while others will not.

What's being asked, here, is whether any form of PAO being permanent is game-breaking.

I'll stand by what I said earlier, that it won't matter much at level 15 since the game is well out of whack by then anyway, but I'd be careful around level 3. Even without this trick, a level 3 half-giant could pay a 15th level wizard a whopping 1200 gold (well within WBL) to be permanently turned into a forest giant with 15 foot reach and 33 strength (I realize you said "any form of PAO", but the OP seemed to mean the double PaO trick).

[RoboEmperor]

I'll stand by what I said earlier, that it won't matter much at level 15 since the game is well out of whack by then anyway, but I'd be careful around level 3. Even without this trick, a level 3 half-giant could pay a 15th level wizard a whopping 1200 gold (well within WBL) to be permanently turned into a forest giant with 15 foot reach and 33 strength (I realize you said "any form of PAO", but the OP seemed to mean the double PaO trick).

That's theorycrafting to the max though. DMG clearly states spellcaster NPCs are rare and enlisting the service of one is a quest unto itself. So I doubt that'll ever be an issue, except with DMs who didn't read the DMG.

[liquidformat]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't unearthed arcana let a wizard turn every single spell in the entire game into a transmutation spell? And give summoner wizards standard action summons? And the cleric variant makes favored soul and spirit shaman totally obsolete? etc. etc.?

Transmuter: 1 spells of any school from the wiz/sorc list you qualify for currently per 5 levels for a total of 4 isn't exactly going to break the game much less make a noticeable difference, and you have to take all 15-20 levels of wizard to get to anything truly powerful and gain no bonus feats in return. This seems like an even trade to me, in fact I wouldn't take it there are much better options out there than 1 forbidden school spel. Most wizards are leaving wizard after level 5 anyway. If your whole build hinges on you having one or two spells that are from forbidden schools of the first three level spells you have bigger problems then taking this acf...

Sommoner: permanently removes your ability to ever have a familiar seems like an even trade to me.

Cloistered Cleric: DMM and those classes' lack of domains already did that don't lay the blame for clerics obsoleting favored souls and spirit shaman where it doesn't belong...

Barbarians: nothing here is as game altering as pounce move along

Bard: pick your flavor, pick your theme! No power increase here.

Druid: Wait one acf drops me down a tier and the other would drop me half a tier but it also doesn't work with my other class features so I just went from tier 1 to tier 5 Truenamer dysfunctional in two class features, woo sign me up!

Fighter: loose four feats to gain a couple of class skills and the opportunity to take a useless feat, oh my what a steal. Otherwise ability to abuse fighter levels for rogues. No power creep here.

Monks: still suck move along

Paladin: I don't have to be LG anymore, cool!

Ranger: wait I am not completely useless now?

Rogue: less sneak attack for more feats seems balanced.

Sorcerer: Seems like an even trade.

Altogether no I am not seeing an issue here.

[OgresAreCute]

snip

I believe the comment about obsoleting spontaneous divine classes was because there are spontaneous cleric/druid variants in unearthed arcana, and since these get the good stuff from their base classes still (domains, turn undead, animal companion, wild shape) they're better than their crappy spontaneous versions in favored soul and spirit shaman. This isn't UA's fault, favored soul and spirit shaman just trade away a lot for very little.

[Asmotherion]

It's cool. Don't take from Casters their Favorite toys. Worst case scenario, don't forget you (The DM) have access to Dispelling Effects, Anti-Magic Zones etc, and a Permanent Duration is Different than an Instantaneus Duration (AkA the effects are still dispellable and suppressable by RAW).

Purelly theoretical, but the most direct way I can think to Abuse the spell is creating the corpse of something with massive Spell Ressistance and high enough level, but not too high to be uncontrollable, and then Animating it through an apropriate Necromancy Spell that allows it's control.

For referance, as a 20th level caster, with no further buffs, you can have some very interesting Spell Resisting Drow Zombies. At least I think they keep SR wile Undead, don't they?

[noob]

It's cool. Don't take from Casters their Favorite toys. Worst case scenario, don't forget you (The DM) have access to Dispelling Effects, Anti-Magic Zones etc, and a Permanent Duration is Different than an Instantaneus Duration (AkA the effects are still dispellable and suppressable by RAW).

Purelly theoretical, but the most direct way I can think to Abuse the spell is creating the corpse of something with massive Spell Ressistance and high enough level, but not too high to be uncontrollable, and then Animating it through an apropriate Necromancy Spell that allows it's control.

For referance, as a 20th level caster, with no further buffs, you can have some very interesting Spell Resisting Drow Zombies. At least I think they keep SR wile Undead, don't they?
Zombies lose class level so a drow zombie have 2 hd
But there is other templates of undead which does not lose class level and which are possible to give through spells.

[Asmotherion]

Zombies lose class level so a drow zombie have 2 hd
But there is other templates of undead which does not lose class level and which are possible to give through spells.

I have 3 words for you:

Animate Dread Warrior.

You're Welcome. XD

I'm still unsure about the SR though. It's technically a Racial Thingy, but does an Undead Warrior keep his Racial Traits? I am slightly confused and out of cafeine on this one...

[Segev]

I have 3 words for you:

Animate Dread Warrior.

You're Welcome. XD

What book is that from? I see it referenced a lot, but I don't know where to find it.

[liquidformat]

What book is that from? I see it referenced a lot, but I don't know where to find it.

Unapproachable east

[Segev]

Unapproachable east

Well, that's... not what I was expecting. I'm not sure what I was expecting, but that wasn't it. Thanks!

[RoboEmperor]

Well, that's... not what I was expecting. I'm not sure what I was expecting, but that wasn't it. Thanks!

I understand what you mean. A 3.0 FR setting specific book is hardly a book anyone expects. Only reason I know of its existence is because I dabbled in nar demonbinder for a while.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I understand what you mean. A 3.0 FR setting specific book is hardly a book anyone expects. Only reason I know of its existence is because I dabbled in nar demonbinder for a while.Jack Chick would go insane hearing a comment like that.

Muahahahahaha...

[noob]

I have 3 words for you:

Animate Dread Warrior.

You're Welcome. XD

I'm still unsure about the SR though. It's technically a Racial Thingy, but does an Undead Warrior keep his Racial Traits? I am slightly confused and out of cafeine on this one...

I specified the existence of undead templates which kept class level I only told zombies(and not all the templates with zombie in the name) did not keep class levels.
Dread warriors are not zombies.

[Asmotherion]

I specified the existence of undead templates which kept class level I only told zombies(and not all the templates with zombie in the name) did not keep class levels.
Dread warriors are not zombies.

I was more thinking you were trying to remember the name of the spell (like I was) and it was on the tip of your tongue or something... Was not trying to sound smart@ss.

@ Segev:
It's a cool and thematic spell, and has Szass Tam listed as it's creator... As a DM I generally give it as a Reward in Scroll Form for good RP.

Might allow to eventually use a former Boss Fight as the General of your Undead Army, if you do dub in necromancy. The RP alone is precious.

[noob]

I was more thinking you were trying to remember the name of the spell (like I was) and it was on the tip of your tongue or something... Was not trying to sound smart@ss.

@ Segev:
It's a cool and thematic spell, and has Szass Tam listed as it's creator... As a DM I generally give it as a Reward in Scroll Form for good RP.

Might allow to eventually use a former Boss Fight as the General of your Undead Army, if you do dub in necromancy. The RP alone is precious.

I apologize for having misunderstood your intent.
Thank you for saying the name of one of the best spells for getting undead with class levels(and which also is uncapped) I mostly did think about create undead and create greater undead which can allow the use of some templates such as bone creature but those options does not allows to control the undead you create like create dread warrior does.

[Asmotherion]

I apologize for having misunderstood your intent.
Thank you for saying the name of one of the best spells for getting undead with class levels(and which also is uncapped) I mostly did think about create undead and create greater undead which can allow the use of some templates such as bone creature but those options does not allows to control the undead you create like create dread warrior does.
The lack of facial expressions and body language makes the internet a strange place were intentions can easily get misinterpreateted. Ironically enough, I like to think undead face the same problems from lacking them... :P