Kudzu's Future

[brian 333]

This is pure speculation, and is thus obviously wrong because I'm batting .000 vs. The Giant, but I'll go ahead and speculate anyway.

The primary question I have concerning Kudzu's future revolves around who goes North with the OotS. I stipulate that Roy will not accept Hilgya going if she insists on bringing Kudzu.

This leads to the conclusion that Hilgya isn't going North.

Which leads to the possibility of a revived Durkon going North, except for the dwarves who wouldn't want to interfere with his happy afterlife, and the Oots spent their Raise Durkon fund.

Which leads to the conclusion that Hilgya is indeed going North.

It is indeed a conundrum which must inevitably lead to a deeper truth about the intricacies of the doily. Where do I go from here?

It occurs to me that there is an answer: Durkon's family. Sigdi will want her grandson, no matter what, I think. Of course she and Hilgya will hate each other.

But with Nana Sigdi in charge 'for just a few days' the OotS can go on with Hilgya, or Durkon and Hilgya.

After all how much harm can a grandmother do in a week?

[Kish]

My answer, is that I don't believe either of the things stated as reasons why Durkon won't be resurrected is accurate.

If Hilgya is unwilling to resurrect Durkon, her reason is not going to be, "You can't afford the listed cost to pay a random NPC spellcaster for a Resurrection," any more than she charged for the Chaos Hammer.

If Hilgya is unwilling to resurrect Durkon...her friendly relationship with the rest of the Order is unlikely to survive both them asking, and that refusal.

[brian 333]

My answer, is that I don't believe either of the things stated as reasons why Durkon won't be resurrected is accurate.

If Hilgya is unwilling to resurrect Durkon, her reason is not going to be, "You can't afford the listed cost to pay a random NPC spellcaster for a Resurrection," any more than she charged for the Chaos Hammer.

If Hilgya is unwilling to resurrect Durkon...her friendly relationship with the rest of the Order is unlikely to survive both them asking, and that refusal.

Which leads one to believe both Durkon and Hilgya are going North, or at least Durkon.

Are you taking the position that Kudzu goes with them? How would either Roy or Durkon accept that?

[Kish]

I am taking the position that Durkon will be resurrected, Durkon will go back to being the Order's cleric, and Hilgya's sole stated reason for ever associating with the Order ("someone needed help murdering Durkon Thundershield") has already expired (insofar as, in her mind, Greg was Durkon). However further interactions with her go, she won't be interested in joining in a quest to save the world while advancing no personal agenda of hers. And Kudzu will stay with her.

[Rrmcklin]

Yeah, I don't know if Hilgya will be the one to resurrect Durkon or not, but I'm pretty confident it will happen.

And she's not going to go with them. She doesn't seem selfless enough to join in a quest of this nature, or willing to leave Kudzu with anyone else. And the Order (Durkon or no Durkon) would be absolutely unwilling to bring an infant child (let alone that of their good friend) into what's going to happen from here on out.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Yeah, I don't know if Hilgya will be the one to resurrect Durkon or not, but I'm pretty confident it will happen.

And she's not going to go with them. She doesn't seem selfless enough to join in a quest of this nature, or willing to leave Kudzu with anyone else. And the Order (Durkon or no Durkon) would be absolutely unwilling to bring an infant child (let alone that of their good friend) into what's going to happen from here on out.

An infant child that would have a high chance of dying dishonorably and go to Hel, to boot.

[brian 333]

Why would Hilgya trust anyone else to save the world and her and Kudzu too? That seems to me to be the least likely option. Plus, Loki might want a better eye on things as the world's end approaches.

Hilgya might go on her own without the OotS, but I don't see her sitting this one out.

[Rrmcklin]

Loki didn't see fit to tell Hilgya about what the whole "end of the world" business and she didn't care about it when Roy mentioned it as the reason he thought Loki sent her.

[KorvinStarmast]

Loki didn't see fit to tell Hilgya about what the whole "end of the world" business and she didn't care about it when Roy mentioned it as the reason he thought Loki sent her. Loki might also be using her for his own ends, which is the world not ending. He need to tell her, since he knows how she's wired. Tell her just enough to get her pointed in the right direction (as Odin possibly did with Durkon via that prophecy ...)

[Gruffe]

Hilyga wouldn't leave her child with the priests of Thor, I doubt she'd leave her kid with Durkon's Thor worshipping family. Unless she's dead, and it's Durkon who leaves Kudzu there.

Honestly I doubt Hilgya is going to follow the Order for long.

Lots of characters could've been argued to follow the order on the basis that the world was facing a world ending threat, but they didn't. I don't see miss Firecrown being any different. I can see her sticking around for a bit after this current situation, but would eventually peeter off. She'd be gone by the beginning of the next book.

[CJG]

I honestly think Durkon is coming back. The stories thus far have revolved around how each and every member of this party is necessary. I suspect that they aren’t going to do away with Durkon now.

Ascor the “raise durkon fund, Roy is a big scary fighter and it’s the end of the world, I suspect that he will “find” a diamond and a willing cleric.

I can’t see Hilgya going, especially after she hears what she did with Kudzu while dominated. I also can’t see her leaving the babe with anyone for a time. Considering what they know about the afterlife this isn’t like me leaving my Jewish kid with his Catholic grandparents for a few weeks. This is her potentially ruining her child’s chances of getting into Valhalla. I suspect in that setting the child dying in battle might be preferable to her. Still I suspect that they will part ways.

There is also the chance that she doesn’t want the responsibility of raising a child. That might make her open to leaving him with the DP5 or their kids. Who knows, maybe one of them converted to Loki!

[brian 333]

There is also the chance that she doesn’t want the responsibility of raising a child. That might make her open to leaving him with the DP5 or their kids. Who knows, maybe one of them converted to Loki!

This is a thought that has occurred to me too. Early on I had the thought that Durkon would be stuck babysitting while Hilgya goes off to save the world. I have since revised that with Sigdi babysitting because I am not yet convinced Durkon will be revived. (I'm also not convinced he won't be either.)

[xroads]

As far as the OotS knows, Team Evil has no intention of destroying the world. So Hilgya will have very little incentive in heading to the next gate. Plus the good members of OotS wouldn't be keen on her bringing Kudzu (as I doubt Hilgya would leave him behind).

As for Durkon, I doubt Hilgya is going to resurrect Durkon, since her stated goal was to murder him.

So it's very possible that the OotS will have to continue without any clerical support. They may have to make do with the healing magic provided by Elan, O-Chul, & Lien.

[DGM]

Considering how badly she failed to protect Kudzu, Hilgya might be more willing to listen to Roy and leave him someplace safe next time.

[Themrys]

This is a thought that has occurred to me too. Early on I had the thought that Durkon would be stuck babysitting while Hilgya goes off to save the world. I have since revised that with Sigdi babysitting because I am not yet convinced Durkon will be revived. (I'm also not convinced he won't be either.)

I don't think she wanted the responsibility for a child before she had Kudzu, but now that she has him, she is clearly protective over him, and wouldn't leave him with anyone she doesn't completely trust. (And she seems to be about as trusting as Haley's dad)

If she witnessed and understood Durkon's heroic sacrifice and it changed her worldview as much as Sigdi's sacrifice changed Durkon*'s worldview, then she might leave Kudzu with Durkon. (That's assuming that she fell in love with Durkon because of who he really is, and actually liked his honour-before-reason attitude, which he communicated rather poorly when he sent her back to her husband while he knew she was possibly pregnant with his child. If she fell in love with Durkon because she thought he was chaotic and could be converted to worship Loki, she'll deem him unfit to look after Kudzu either way).

She definitely won't leave Kudzu with Sigdi, the woman responsible for Durkon's horrid behaviour towards her ... at least that's the impression that Hilgya would have gotten from his words.

Of course, Sigdi could appear and do something awesome that would impress Hilgya so much that the later reveal that she's Durkon's mother wouldn't matter anymore. But just because she's Kudzu's paternal grandmother? Not likely.

@xroads: Hilgya has not murdered Durkon yet. She might resurrect him just so she can do that. She didn't want to get rid of him because he was actively harming her (that's the kind of situation where you don't care why someone is dead), she wanted to kill him.

Or she didn't want him dead at all and thought joining the people who wanted to murder him would be a good way to thwart that plan - not likely, admittedly, but she DOES worship Loki, so ...

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Considering how badly she failed to protect Kudzu, Hilgya might be more willing to listen to Roy and leave him someplace safe next time.

Maybe, but that would also require her to become a lot more self-aware than she has been so far, so I would be surprised if that actually happened. More likely, she'll blame Durkon for Greg's actions and her own folly (as she has done before).

Grey Wolf

[brian 333]

Or she could be exactly what she appears to be: a selfish girl who feels saddled with a child she didn't want and who blames the father for her situation. Of course she hated Durkon: he didn't fall madly in love with her, and even after she seduced him the cad had the nerve to kick her to the curb.

Sure, she loves Kudzu as much as she can love anything that is not herself, but he's ruining her life. Making Durkon take care of him would be just deserts for the deadbeat dad. If nothing else, it might simply be a relief to have Sigdi take care of him while she goes off to live her life.

[Rrmcklin]

It kind of seems like you're reading a lot of things into Hilgya that aren't there brian33. I'll gladly admit that Hilgya is a terrible person (regardless of what her actual alignment is), but I haven't gotten the impression at all that she considers Kudzu to be ruining her life. Because if she did, she certainly would have gotten rid of him by now (no, I don't mean killed, left at an orphanage or something).

[xroads]

Or she could be exactly what she appears to be: a selfish girl who feels saddled with a child she didn't want and who blames the father for her situation. Of course she hated Durkon: he didn't fall madly in love with her, and even after she seduced him the cad had the nerve to kick her to the curb.

Sure, she loves Kudzu as much as she can love anything that is not herself, but he's ruining her life. Making Durkon take care of him would be just deserts for the deadbeat dad. If nothing else, it might simply be a relief to have Sigdi take care of him while she goes off to live her life.

It's a possibility. But considering Helga didn't take advantage of the Church of Loki's Childcare (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1107.html), I'm thinking she's rather partial to keeping Kudzu around. :smallbiggrin:

[brian 333]

Which would not stop her from blaming Durkon for her situation, or from taking an easy out by letting Nana do the work while she drops in from time to time to blame Sigdi for raising him wrong or to assert her parental rights.

What part of Hilgya's characterization leads anyone to believe she is/will be a good mother? I'm imagining Hilgya with a war chariot that has a Baby On Board sticker.

[xroads]

@xroads: Hilgya has not murdered Durkon yet. She might resurrect him just so she can do that. She didn't want to get rid of him because he was actively harming her (that's the kind of situation where you don't care why someone is dead), she wanted to kill him.


Hilgya is certainly devious enough to pull something like that off. But, in this scenario the end result is still the same. Durkon & Hilgya are still unlikely to accompany the OotS to the North.

But I'm keeping my fingers crossed. Maybe OotS will secure a "Save the world, get one free Resurrection spell coupon" from the dwarven council.* :smallbiggrin:

*Offer only valid in the North. Not valid with certain alignments. Offer available for a limited time. Coupon must be presented to a high ranking cleric of Thor or Odin.

[Rrmcklin]

It occurs to me that this is really just another "What happens to Durkon?" thread, but disguised as something else.

Because we have no actual reasons to worry about Kudzu's future safety, regardless of any situations posed, making the question entirely moot.

[KorvinStarmast]

It occurs to me that this is really just another "What happens to Durkon?" thread, but disguised as something else.
Since the only conscious member of the Order is Belkar, the "what happened to Durkon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots00072.html)" variation this time ought to be a fun little romp.
:roy::elan::haley: What happened to Durkon?
:belkar: He turned undead, so with you people out of the way (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0909.html), I finally got the chance to kill him.

[CJG]

What part of Hilgya's characterization leads anyone to believe she is/will be a good mother? I'm imagining Hilgya with a war chariot that has a Baby On Board sticker.

I admit, this line of thinking has me miffed. Hilgya is not a terrible mom, she made a mistake. I know the risks of car accidents, yet I strap my kids into one every day to take them to school and daycare. It’s hard to draw the line at what makes a bad parent, especially since we don’t have obvious afterlives or career adventurers. Would you leave your kid with people of another religion if you truly thought it would result in your child’s soul going to a bad place? Wouldn’t dying and going to the good place be preferable?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I admit, this line of thinking has me miffed. Hilgya is not a terrible mom, she made a mistake. I know the risks of car accidents, yet I strap my kids into one every day to take them to school and daycare. It’s hard to draw the line at what makes a bad parent, especially since we don’t have obvious afterlives or career adventurers. Would you leave your kid with people of another religion if you truly thought it would result in your child’s soul going to a bad place? Wouldn’t dying and going to the good place be preferable?

1) Choosing to pursue vengeance with your baby strapped to your chest is not a "mistake", it's a bad decision. You may have to go to work and thus you need to put your children in daycare. Hilgya did not need to pursue vengeance while Kudzu was still this young and vulnerable

2) Kudzu is a dwarf. Being killed because of your mom's vendetta while helplessly strapped to her chest is not honorable. Had Kudzu died, he would probably have ended in Hel's clutches.

3) I am so tired of the false dichotomy of "Kudzu could only be carried into unnecessary battle or left with Thor followers". Hilgya could have chosen a course of action that did NOT involve going into battle at all.

Grey Wolf

[KorvinStarmast]

Hilgya could have chosen a course of action that did NOT involve going into battle at all.
No, Hilgya the character could not do that. The choices that fictional characters make are what build an interesting story/narrative.

[brian 333]

It occurs to me that this is really just another "What happens to Durkon?" thread, but disguised as something else.

Because we have no actual reasons to worry about Kudzu's future safety, regardless of any situations posed, making the question entirely moot.

Actually, I like the character. I'm going to miss him when the story moves on without him.

The giant has, with a very minimalist approach, created a character that is very fun to observe. His gestures, his expressions, even where he looks, all say something. Kudzu is my favorite character in the comic.

So I genuinely want to see him safe and happy. Even knowing he's fictional. Plus, grandbabies ard so much fun. I'm hoping Sigdi gets some Granny time.

If you're convinced there's still no reason to worry about Kudzu's future, I can only suggest you find a baby and hold it. For just a minute.

[Particle_Man]

I think she is CN (but could be convinced she is CE with a heavy accent on the C). Her taking revenge on Durkon? Personal. Her carrying Kudzu into battle with her? Classic "screw you guys with your safety precautions, I am the mother and I will do what I feel to be right for my child" anti-law rebellious chaotic attitude.

As for what she will do, it is hard to say. She is chaotic. But unless she dies I don't see her leaving the child with anybody else.

[Dion]

I am so tired of the false dichotomy of "Kudzu could only be carried into unnecessary battle or left with Thor followers". Hilgya could have chosen a course of action that did NOT involve going into battle at all.

So let me see if I understand what you’re saying. Are you saying Hilgya doesn’t have the right to go on an irresponsible murder quest with a baby strapped to her chest?

But don’t you realize she’s been forcibly repressed by the dwarven patriarchy? How does that not give her the right to do literally anything, up to and including treating a living child as personal property?

Surely you must agree that since dwarven society apparently practices arranged marriages, that means it’s OK for Hilgya to demonstrate a complete disregard for the rights of every other living thing.

[RatElemental]

So let me see if I understand what you’re saying. Are you saying Hilgya doesn’t have the right to go on an irresponsible murder quest with a baby strapped to her chest?

But don’t you realize she’s been forcibly repressed by the dwarven patriarchy? How does that not give her the right to do literally anything, up to and including treating a living child as personal property?

Surely you must agree that since dwarven society apparently practices arranged marriages, that means it’s OK for Hilgya to demonstrate a complete disregard for the rights of every other living thing.

... This just triggered some flashbacks for me.

[Dion]

I think she is CN (but could be convinced she is CE with a heavy accent on the C). Her taking revenge on Durkon? Personal. Her carrying Kudzu into battle with her? Classic "screw you guys with your safety precautions, I am the mother and I will do what I feel to be right for my child" anti-law rebellious chaotic attitude.

As for what she will do, it is hard to say. She is chaotic. But unless she dies I don't see her leaving the child with anybody else.

In the real world, I can easily see the little whelp getting dropped off at grandma’s for a few decades.

But in the stick world? Kudzu is going on an adventure. He’s going to meet Xykon and Red Cloak and MiTD, and there will be many jokes.

Prediction; MiTD will not eat Kudzu.

[CJG]

1) Choosing to pursue vengeance with your baby strapped to your chest is not a "mistake", it's a bad decision. You may have to go to work and thus you need to put your children in daycare. Hilgya did not need to pursue vengeance while Kudzu was still this young and vulnerable

2) Kudzu is a dwarf. Being killed because of your mom's vendetta while helplessly strapped to her chest is not honorable. Had Kudzu died, he would probably have ended in Hel's clutches.

3) I am so tired of the false dichotomy of "Kudzu could only be carried into unnecessary battle or left with Thor followers". Hilgya could have chosen a course of action that did NOT involve going into battle at all.

Grey Wolf. Near as I can tell babies go where their mum goes so, depending on where you think Hilgya is going, Kudzu is going there. And I’m not so sure Hilgya is here to peruse vengeance. She simply doesn’t seem that bloodthirsty to me. She followed Nale supposedly at Loki’s say-so and failed at poisoning her husband when just a stabbing would have done. Then she engaged in Loki-like trickery.

And the thing is, going into battle is Hilgyas job. That’s how she makes her money, that’s what she does for a living. Yeah it’s dangerous, but again, guaranteed afterlives makes these dangerous risks less so.

I will say this, she has a terrible baby-carrier.

[hroþila]

. Near as I can tell babies go where their mum goes so, depending on where you think Hilgya is going, Kudzu is going there. And I’m not so sure Hilgya is here to peruse vengeance. She simply doesn’t seem that bloodthirsty to me. She followed Nale supposedly at Loki’s say-so and failed at poisoning her husband when just a stabbing would have done. Then she engaged in Loki-like trickery.

And the thing is, going into battle is Hilgyas job. That’s how she makes her money, that’s what she does for a living. Yeah it’s dangerous, but again, guaranteed afterlives makes these dangerous risks less so.

I will say this, she has a terrible baby-carrier.
But that's the thing, if the baby MUST go with its mom (e.g. if Hilgya absolutely can't leave Kudzu with anyone else for a while), then mom should take that into account when deciding where she's going. It's one thing to take your baby to your office with a kindergarten area, it's quite another to take your baby on patrol when deployed with the military in a war-torn country. And it's not like she didn't have a choice - she didn't know the world needed saving or anything, she was just looking for Durkon. That could have waited, as far as she knew. As for her not stabbing Ivan, well, of course she didn't - she didn't want it to look like murder.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

. Near as I can tell babies go where their mum goes so, depending on where you think Hilgya is going, Kudzu is going there.
Unless you are a dwarf, in which case first you pass Hel's gauntlet. The Dwarf souls belong to her, as per the bet.


And I’m not so sure Hilgya is here to peruse vengeance.
She literally said that was her purpose. You don't get to dismiss canon with "I don't think so".


And the thing is, going into battle is Hilgyas job. That’s how she makes her money, that’s what she does for a living. Yeah it’s dangerous, but again, guaranteed afterlives makes these dangerous risks less so.
No, it is not "her job". She has also been established to have more than enough money to retire, even if it was.

Grey Wolf

[CJG]

But that's the thing, if the baby MUST go with its mom (e.g. if Hilgya absolutely can't leave Kudzu with anyone else for a while), then mom should take that into account when deciding where she's going. It's one thing to take your baby to your office with a kindergarten area, it's quite another to take your baby on patrol when deployed with the military in a war-torn country. And it's not like she didn't have a choice - she didn't know the world needed saving or anything, she was just looking for Durkon. That could have waited, as far as she knew. As for her not stabbing Ivan, well, of course she didn't - she didn't want it to look like murder.
But you’re judging her by real-world consequences. We do have guaranteed afterlives here. I think that changes a lot in the “what is considered dangerous” category.

[hroþila]

But you’re judging her by real-world consequences. We do have guaranteed afterlives here. I think that changes a lot in the “what is considered dangerous” category.
I'm not, I'm thinking of the D&D/OOTS world consequences, such as: 1) the possibility that the baby will be stuck in a bad afterlife, particularly if its mom dies with it; 2) the possibility that, even if you want to raise the baby due to the above, the baby might refuse or not be able to answer the call; 3) the fact that while dying is not the end of the world (literally), most people would prefer not to die none the less; 4) the very likely possibility that dying will be extremely unpleasant for the baby.

Seriously, most people get terribly upset when something mundane hurts their baby a tiny bit, but its dying violently would be no big deal?

[CJG]

Unless you are a dwarf, in which case first you pass Hel's gauntlet. The Dwarf souls belong to her, as per the bet.


She literally said that was her purpose. You don't get to dismiss canon with "I don't think so".


No, it is not "her job". She has also been established to have more than enough money to retire, even if it was.

Grey Wolf. You’re suggesting that Thor can’t get a baby dying in his mother’s glorious battle into Valhalla? I mean they get in for fighting trees.

I do get to dismiss canon, for two reasons. 1: it’s fiction. It’s not like I’m suggesting Lincoln was a lizardfolk here. I’m allowed to speculate And 2: her actions speak louder than her words. Sorry but no one in their right mind prays daily for over a year just to find and kill the guy who got her knocked up. She’s not Arya Stark with a Death list here, she’s a single mom who, near as we can tell, had settled down since her windfall.

And speaking of her windfall, fine, adventuring is no longer her job, but it was. Now she spreads the word of Loki. Ok fine, but we still are in a situation where adventuring is pretty normal for her, and is a valid job description.

Her baby is happy, healthy and seems to love her very much. She is likely a good mom who made one bad judgement call. And that happens to good mothers in real life all the time. I’m less interested in that bad judgement call than I am in how she approaches this in the future.


I’m also curious if anyone has bought up Tarquin bringing Nale into battle as a kid? I wasn’t in the forums back then.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

. You’re suggesting that Thor can’t get a baby dying in his mother’s glorious battle into Valhalla? I mean they get in for fighting trees.
Yes, but not for being helplessly used as body armour.


I do get to dismiss canon, for two reasons. 1: it’s fiction. It’s not like I’m suggesting Lincoln was a lizardfolk here. I’m allowed to speculate And 2: her actions speak louder than her words. Sorry but no one in their right mind prays daily for over a year just to find and kill the guy who got her knocked up. She’s not Arya Stark with a Death list here, she’s a single mom who, near as we can tell, had settled down since her windfall.
No, you do not get to dismiss canon for either of those reasons. But it does give me a reason to Ignore you from now on. You seem to have decided that you would have written this better, and I don't waste my time with such people.


She is likely a good mom who made one bad judgement call
And we are back to dismissing "taking a baby on a revenge quest and into battle with vampires" as a "bad judgement call".

Yeah, I'm done with you. You are not worth listening to.

Grey Wolf

[CJG]

Yes, but not for being helplessly used as body armour.


No, you do not get to dismiss canon for either of those reasons. But it does give me a reason to Ignore you from now on. You seem to have decided that you would have written this better, and I don't waste my time with such people.


And we are back to dismissing "taking a baby on a revenge quest and into battle with vampires" as a "bad judgement call".

Yeah, I'm done with you. You are not worth listening to.

Grey Wolf
Wow. You are taking a work of fiction waaaay to seriously. Yes, ignore me please.

[Rrmcklin]

. You’re suggesting that Thor can’t get a baby dying in his mother’s glorious battle into Valhalla? I mean they get in for fighting trees.

I'll point out we don't really know how those discussions go, just that they happen. I'd assume, no, Kudzu wouldn't because Kudzu himself wouldn't be fighting and doesn't even know what's going on.


I do get to dismiss canon, for two reasons. 1: it’s fiction. It’s not like I’m suggesting Lincoln was a lizardfolk here. I’m allowed to speculate And 2: her actions speak louder than her words. Sorry but no one in their right mind prays daily for over a year just to find and kill the guy who got her knocked up. She’s not Arya Stark with a Death list here, she’s a single mom who, near as we can tell, had settled down since her windfall.

There's a difference between "speculating" and going "I'm going to ignore facts presented in the story because I don't like them." The latter just gives people who are actually interested in the discussing the story no reason not to do so with you.


And speaking of her windfall, fine, adventuring is no longer her job, but it was. Now she spreads the word of Loki. Ok fine, but we still are in a situation where adventuring is pretty normal for her, and is a valid job description.

Which says nothing about the appropriateness of taking Kudzu along with her for this.


Her baby is happy, healthy and seems to love her very much. She is likely a good mom who made one bad judgement call. And that happens to good mothers in real life all the time. I’m less interested in that bad judgement call than I am in how she approaches this in the future.

Her baby is always a baby and not aware of anything going on around him. A baby being happy is in no way an indication that it's being taken care of properly. I'm not even going to argue that Kudzu isn't normally taken care of properly, but her decision to bring him along with this, and refuse to give him up even when knowing she's going to be facing dangerous and powerful vampires isn't just a "bad-judgment call" it's just horribly negligent parenting.


I’m also curious if anyone has bought up Tarquin bringing Nale into battle as a kid? I wasn’t in the forums back then.

I mean, maybe, but it doesn't matter as much because 1) there was no focus on it and 2) that Tarquin was really a terrible parent and evil was fairly obvious from the beginning, even if there were a few people trying to argue otherwise (like you trying to downplay what Hilgya's decisions with Kudzu say about her and her parenting).

[Rrmcklin]

Wow. You are taking a work of fiction waaaay to seriously. Yes, ignore me please.

And this is just a clear sign that you aren't actually interested in what other people have to say. Which is terrible for discussion, really.

[Dr.Zero]

Considering how badly she failed to protect Kudzu, Hilgya might be more willing to listen to Roy and leave him someplace safe next time.


I'll point out we don't really know how those discussions go, just that they happen. I'd assume, no, Kudzu wouldn't because Kudzu himself wouldn't be fighting and doesn't even know what's going on.

If we go by that logic, then ALL dwarfs dead children go to hell.
We have a lot of options:
1) children unable to decide for themselves are exempt from the bet (the logic being: "Hey, he fought heroically -as much as he could- against sickness/regurgitation suffocation/maximized energy drain/whatever so he is exempt"), so dying being used as "body armor" or because he suffocates on his own cushions counts too;
2) being killed in battle counts anyway;
3) generally, bet or not, children unable to decide for themselves follow the parent to who they are more bound;
4) generally, bet or not, children unable to decide for themselves follow the parent who had the "better outcome";
5) generally, bet or not, children unable to decide for themselves can go where they feel better;
6) Dwarf children suck it up, and if they die, indeed they go to Hel.

Considering Roy's little bro, for humans I'd say it's either 3, 4 or 5; the only negative outcome for kudzu is number 6.

Since we are not clerics in OOTS, but Hilgya is, and she clearly loves Kudzu (the whole "Mommy is going to cover your sweet little eyes while she burns all down" doesn't sound like a reasonable premise for "Mommy hates you and wants to get rid of you, better if she manages to send you to Hel") either she knows dying (in a battle or not) Kudzu is safe, or she thought to be nigh invincible and so that Kudzu was safer with her than with a random schmuck. If it's the latter, she might change her mind about bringing Kudzu with her in a battle, after her fiasco here. If it's the former, we might get some more insight regarding kids' afterlife.

But I don't see her leaving her son behind so easily.

And, on the other hand, I don't see the whole "I'm a pa" ending there, with then Hilgya and Kudzu departing, without at least an opportunity for some drama first.



In the real world, I can easily see the little whelp getting dropped off at grandma’s for a few decades.

But in the stick world? Kudzu is going on an adventure. He’s going to meet Xykon and Red Cloak and MiTD, and there will be many jokes.

Prediction; MiTD will not eat Kudzu.

Ah! Foreshadowing!!!



Or she could be exactly what she appears to be: a selfish girl who feels saddled with a child she didn't want and who blames the father for her situation. Of course she hated Durkon: he didn't fall madly in love with her, and even after she seduced him the cad had the nerve to kick her to the curb.

Sure, she loves Kudzu as much as she can love anything that is not herself, but he's ruining her life. Making Durkon take care of him would be just deserts for the deadbeat dad. If nothing else, it might simply be a relief to have Sigdi take care of him while she goes off to live her life.

Meh, she got filthy rich and reduced her own clan to be caveless: if she wanted to get rid of Kudzu, she could leave him to one of them, for some pocket money. There was no need to search for the father, it's not like she needs to ask him to pay for the kid's maintenance.

[KorvinStarmast]

Considering Roy's little bro, for humans I'd say it's either 3, 4 or 5; the only negative outcome for kudzu is number 6. It's one of the few bits of evidence available to make an estimate.


either she knows dying (in a battle or not) Kudzu is safe, or she thought to be nigh invincible and so that Kudzu was safer with her than with a random schmuck. The latter point of view she has expressed on screen.

If it's the latter, she might change her mind about bringing Kudzu with her in a battle, after her fiasco here. Yeah, she might sober up regarding a vampire holding her child on his lap, but since she was Dominated(spell) one wonders if she'll remember that or not. Belkar saw it, so he may offer one of his pointed observations on that.


If it's the former, we might get some more insight regarding kids' afterlife. Maybe, but I doubt it; your first point looks to meet requirements well enough. (In re Erik).

But I don't see her leaving her son behind so easily. Given her statements on screen, I don't either.


There was no need to search for the father, it's not like she needs to ask him to pay for the kid's maintenance. Indeed. Her motive seems to be a desire to settle a score.

[SlashDash]

Random thought tossed in the room...

Maybe Hilga will just get killed? There are still a couple of vampires left. Things could get ugly again.

[Jubal_Barca]

Hmm. I don't think we necessarily should buy too hard into the "Hilgya permanently totally hates Durkon and would do anything to keep him dead" idea. I think it's fair to say that (in an odd mirror of Durkon), she's got this moment that she can't process, and she's processing it with anger at the moment, but also she's chaotic above all else - when the facts change it's perfectly possible for her to change her mind. As for her care for Kuzdu, I think we can put that down as a major character goal even if she goes about it in ways that we might reasonably think classify as stupid - whether or not we consider it a terrible idea to carry a baby into battle, she may not rationalise it in the same way. It's certainly possible for her to both be a devoted parent and a terrible parent simultaneously.

Narratively, I'm am at least 95% sure that Durkon will be resurrected, and will be the Order's primary cleric for the last book. I think a reconciliation between Hilgya and Durkon is possible, too - not them getting back together, but them coming to amicable terms. Of course it could also go the other way and we could have an Order Vs Hilgya fight, but I'm not sure what narrative effect that would serve. My expectation is that Hilgya will stay in Firmament to preach the word of Loki, who may indeed get more popular among the Dwarves after his most prominent Dwarf priest will have played such an important role in saving the Dwarf council meeting, though it's possible someone will kill her before the end of the book and leave Kuzdu to be raised by Durkon's family or something.

[KorvinStarmast]

It's certainly possible for her to both be a devoted parent and a terrible parent simultaneously. It's also possible to be a devoted parent and an imperfect parent. :smallwink:


I think a reconciliation between Hilgya and Durkon is possible, too - not them getting back together, but them coming to amicable terms. The recollection of Sigdi's rendition of that "hide it in a dark place" emotion, matched with Durkon's original version, and then Durkon's awareness of "A son!... A Son!...A Son!" (musical reference is rock opera, Tommy) makes him more open to listen to her rather than dismiss her as he did over a thousand strips ago.

My expectation is that Hilgya will stay in Firmament to preach the word of Loki, who may indeed get more popular among the Dwarves after his most prominent Dwarf priest will have played such an important role in saving the Dwarf council meeting, though it's possible someone will kill her before the end of the book and leave Kuzdu to be raised by Durkon's family or something. Both are plausible outcomes of the current state of play.

[Kish]

I do get to dismiss canon, for two reasons. 1: it’s fiction. It’s not like I’m suggesting Lincoln was a lizardfolk here. I’m allowed to speculate And 2: her actions speak louder than her words. Sorry but no one in their right mind prays daily for over a year just to find and kill the guy who got her knocked up.
Which, since she explicitly did exactly that, suggests she's not in her right mind. But you also said you don't actually feel any obligation to pay attention to the text of what you're arguing about, so...

[brian 333]

...I’m also curious if anyone has bought up Tarquin bringing Nale into battle as a kid? I wasn’t in the forums back then.


...I'm imagining Hilgya with a war chariot that has a Baby On Board sticker.

It was an indirect reference, but yes, the point has been made, and even quoted by a later poster who disagreed with my assessment of Hilgya's parenting.

At the time the 'Baby On Board' comic came out, the universal opinion was along the lines of, "That explains a lot about Nale's antisocial behavior," or something like that.

[Rrmcklin]

If we go by that logic, then ALL dwarfs dead children go to hell.
We have a lot of options:
1) children unable to decide for themselves are exempt from the bet (the logic being: "Hey, he fought heroically -as much as he could- against sickness/regurgitation suffocation/maximized energy drain/whatever so he is exempt"), so dying being used as "body armor" or because he suffocates on his own cushions counts too;
2) being killed in battle counts anyway;
3) generally, bet or not, children unable to decide for themselves follow the parent to who they are more bound;
4) generally, bet or not, children unable to decide for themselves follow the parent who had the "better outcome";
5) generally, bet or not, children unable to decide for themselves can go where they feel better;
6) Dwarf children suck it up, and if they die, indeed they go to Hel.

Considering Roy's little bro, for humans I'd say it's either 3, 4 or 5; the only negative outcome for kudzu is number 6.

Since we are not clerics in OOTS, but Hilgya is, and she clearly loves Kudzu (the whole "Mommy is going to cover your sweet little eyes while she burns all down" doesn't sound like a reasonable premise for "Mommy hates you and wants to get rid of you, better if she manages to send you to Hel") either she knows dying (in a battle or not) Kudzu is safe, or she thought to be nigh invincible and so that Kudzu was safer with her than with a random schmuck. If it's the latter, she might change her mind about bringing Kudzu with her in a battle, after her fiasco here. If it's the former, we might get some more insight regarding kids' afterlife.

Except none of that actually follows. My point was not a bout children in general, it was about Kudzu, specifically, not knowing what's going on in him and his "participation" only being a product of his mother's clear irresponsibility.

This entire phrasing clearly shows you're only interested in making Hilgya seem better than she is actually portrayed. Because for one thing, no Hilgya is not nigh invisible, and two, it should not need to be explained how keeping the baby away from the room filled with vampires is better than deliberately bringing them into it.

If you can't even admit that much there's clearly no point in talking to you about it.

[Dr.Zero]

Except none of that actually follows. My point was not a bout children in general, it was about Kudzu, specifically, not knowing what's going on in him and his "participation" only being a product of his mother's clear irresponsibility.

Hmm? This was your sentence, the one to which I replied:


I'll point out we don't really know how those discussions go, just that they happen. I'd assume, no, Kudzu wouldn't because Kudzu himself wouldn't be fighting and doesn't even know what's going on.

(Which was your reply to CJG sentence: ". You’re suggesting that Thor can’t get a baby dying in his mother’s glorious battle into Valhalla? I mean they get in for fighting trees.")

So, now, my skills in english might be lacking, but you were replying about the baby afterlife, and my reply was perfectly in line, talking about what might happen to children (this one in particular included) in afterlife.



This entire phrasing clearly shows you're only interested in making Hilgya seem better than she is actually portrayed. Because for one thing, no Hilgya is not nigh invisible,


"Thought" was a keyword there.



and two, it should not need to be explained how keeping the baby away from the room filled with vampires is better than deliberately bringing them into it.

It depends on the circumstances. When the immediate alternative is: "Leave him to the low level clerics who were already proven to be good only as vampire snacks", and you are a high level cleric+a full squad of high level people...
Again, a lot depends on what she thought (keyword) she and her new friends could do.



If you can't even admit that much there's clearly no point in talking to you about it.

Well, in any case, it seems we won't miss each other.

[martianmister]

I highly doubt that Hel is full with spirits of dead children.

[brian 333]

About children: The Giant, as of the Eric Greenhilt strips, has declared that children who die go to the afterlife of their mother's alignment. Why would this not apply to dwarves?

Thor and Hel may bicker over the souls of those dwarves who died after coming of age, but those who are not yet old enough to make moral choices are covered by prior regulations set before their bet. This seems most logical to me, and of course could be wrong.

[KorvinStarmast]

About children: The Giant, as of the Eric Greenhilt strips, has declared that children who die go to the afterlife of their mother's alignment. Why would this not apply to dwarves? Kudzu's likely destination is Loki's home town, by this reasoning, if Hilgya's judgment ends up going horribly wrong. Baby goes to Loki's realm makes sense.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

About children: The Giant, as of the Eric Greenhilt strips, has declared that children who die go to the afterlife of their mother's alignment. Why would this not apply to dwarves?

For the same reason that Roy's process of getting to the afterlife also doesn't apply to dwarves. In D&D, it is called the "specific beats general" rule. A rule that applies to a specific situation beats a more general rule. In this case, the bet clearly establishes that all dwarf souls belong to Hel. Not "adult dwarves". All of them. And since this is more specific than "all babies go to their mom's current alignment plane" (since it only applies to dwarven babies), the parsimonious assumption is that dwarf babies that die with dishonor do end up in Hel's clutches.

Grey Wolf

[Kish]

The trouble with that is that every baby who died, except maybe for very occasional ones who were exceptionally belligerent in life, would die with dishonor by the dwarven system. Cave-in, fire, predator, tree; all an ordinary baby is going to do as one approaches is cry, or maybe try to crawl away. This would lead to Hel logically attempting to immolate dwarf nurseries. And...I'm skeptical that Rich would want to go there.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The trouble with that is that every baby who died, except maybe for very occasional ones who were exceptionally belligerent in life, would die with dishonor by the dwarven system. Cave-in, fire, predator, tree; all an ordinary baby is going to do as one approaches is cry, or maybe try to crawl away. This would lead to Hel logically attempting to immolate dwarf nurseries. And...I'm skeptical that Rich would want to go there.

I am not expecting Rich to go there, either. Nevertheless, given the crappy hand the dwarves have been dealt thanks to the gods, this would be just another turd on top.

Grey Wolf

[brian 333]

For the same reason that Roy's process of getting to the afterlife also doesn't apply to dwarves. In D&D, it is called the "specific beats general" rule. A rule that applies to a specific situation beats a more general rule. In this case, the bet clearly establishes that all dwarf souls belong to Hel. Not "adult dwarves". All of them. And since this is more specific than "all babies go to their mom's current alignment plane" (since it only applies to dwarven babies), the parsimonious assumption is that dwarf babies that die with dishonor do end up in Hel's clutches.

Grey Wolf

I can see your point of view. As I said, I cannot say my post was correct, but it seems logical to me that the bet only applies to dwarves who are capable of moral choices. Otherwise, Hel would be overrun with dwarf infants.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I can see your point of view. As I said, I cannot say my post was correct, but it seems logical to me that the bet only applies to dwarves who are capable of moral choices. Otherwise, Hel would be overrun with dwarf infants.

Or dwarven child mortality is really, really low because 1) magic, 2) extra careful parenting because of Hel, and 3) dwarves are tough.

Again, not that we will ever know because Rich is probably not going to go down this rather morbid path in the PG 13 comic.

Grey Wolf

[Goblin_Priest]

Or dwarven child mortality is really, really low because 1) magic, 2) extra careful parenting because of Hel, and 3) dwarves are tough.

Again, not that we will ever know because Rich is probably not going to go down this rather morbid path in the PG 13 comic.

Grey Wolf

Also, babies are already established to follow special rules. Not sure which one goes first.

[Dr.Zero]

Or dwarven child mortality is really, really low because 1) magic, 2) extra careful parenting because of Hel, and 3) dwarves are tough.

Again, not that we will ever know because Rich is probably not going to go down this rather morbid path in the PG 13 comic.

Grey Wolf

1) That is true for all the races. So maybe because of magic children mortality is low for all races. Maybe mortality in general is low. But from what we have seen, OOTS world doesn't seem some sort of utopia where people die mostly of old age.

Also, if we compare it to the real world, my raw guess? Magic means some defense and some greater danger: dragons, half dragon trolls, crazy sorcerers, devils, demons and whatnot. For every Durkon or Rubyrock ready to use magic to heal people, there is a Nale or a Malack or a Xykon (or a half dragon troll) ready to use magic/supernatural powers to harm people. Eventually the two things -magic healing and defense vs magic dangers- compensate each other.

2) In OOTS it doesn't seem that races where children die and go to heaven take the issue of children safety sloppily. (Compare Roy description of what happened to his family after the death of his little bro).
If, instead, we are making a comparison with real world, even without Hel good parents do their best to ensure the safety of their children, and sometimes, even if the best is done, they die nonetheless.

3) Yes, that helps a bit, maybe.

[Rrmcklin]

It's been talked about like unmaking the world would indeed give Hel the soul of every dwarf. I suppose you could see "if all their parents are going to go there, of course the children will too." but I'm not sure that would follow in this situation.

I mean, we've already seen Hel and Thor arguing over the soul of a young girl who died not in battle, but getting an infection from a splinter (or something). Clearly very young children aren't exempt from the normal rules of the bet, and making a distinction between say, a four year old, and a literal baby in a situation seems pretty baseless.

[Synesthesy]

Kudzu will grow up and become the divine caster of the Order of the Stick 2: Order Stickier! protagonist party, togheder with the doughter of Haley and Elan, who will be a rogue/dashing swordman, the son of Roy and Celia who will be the party leader as a fighter that can cast spell (being half celestial), one of the two son of V, that is a mage specialized in hunting demons, seeking revenge of who had damned his parent. Last but not least, a goblin grandson of right-eye that has become a bard (now that goblinoids are in peace, they don't need warriors anymore), and the bastard son of Belkar, a chaotic neutral ranger who didn't know anything about his father until he met Roy's son.

[Riftwolf]

Kudzu will grow up and become the divine caster of the Order of the Stick 2: Order Stickier! protagonist party, togheder with the doughter of Haley and Elan, who will be a rogue/dashing swordman, the son of Roy and Celia who will be the party leader as a fighter that can cast spell (being half celestial), one of the two son of V, that is a mage specialized in hunting demons, seeking revenge of who had damned his parent. Last but not least, a goblin grandson of right-eye that has become a bard (now that goblinoids are in peace, they don't need warriors anymore), and the bastard son of Belkar, a chaotic neutral ranger who didn't know anything about his father until he met Roy's son.

Roy's son will be on a mission to prove gish builds are viable and will value the contributions of NPCs. Elan/Haley's daughter will resent the loving family that isn't giving her enough angsty back story befitting a YA female protagonist, Belkars bastard will spend a disproportionate amount of time trying to retcon his father as a misunderstood antihero, and Gender-neutral-child of V will keep asking hir parents for help. Right-Eyes grandson will be called 'The Bard', and none of the others acknowledge him as a team member until his heel turn.

[brian 333]

We've overlooked the main character: the offspring of Jimminy the Polearms Dealer.

It will require at least two books before Jimminy confesses that he indeed has no offspring.

[martianmister]

It's been talked about like unmaking the world would indeed give Hel the soul of every dwarf. I suppose you could see "if all their parents are going to go there, of course the children will too." but I'm not sure that would follow in this situation.

I mean, we've already seen Hel and Thor arguing over the soul of a young girl who died not in battle, but getting an infection from a splinter (or something). Clearly very young children aren't exempt from the normal rules of the bet, and making a distinction between say, a four year old, and a literal baby in a situation seems pretty baseless.

When did this happen?

[Rrmcklin]

When did this happen?

I don't remember the strip but I know it happened. Thor's argument was (paraphrasing) "Her death was the result of honorably doing battle against an evil tree!" Hel went "Trees are inanimate plants you idiot!" and they just keep arguing from there.


The point being, she was clearly a child who didn't actually die in battle, and logically should go to Hel, which Hel was arguing for. She wouldn't be doing that if dwarf children aren't included.

[Kish]

You mean this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0874.html) strip?

That doesn't look like a child to me, small though she is compared to the two gods.

[Rrmcklin]

Huh, my mistake then.

Still, they have talked as if Hel would get all the dwarves. I have to imagine that if she'd miss out on such a large percentage as children it would have been mentioned (again, unless the kids would go to Hel, because all their parents would).

[Mightymosy]

I don't think we'll be told what happens when Kudzu or other Dwarf children die. I suspect the Giant would say we shouldn't worry too much about details that don't matter for the story.

[brian 333]

Huh, my mistake then.

Still, they have talked as if Hel would get all the dwarves. I have to imagine that if she'd miss out on such a large percentage as children it would have been mentioned (again, unless the kids would go to Hel, because all their parents would).

We got that impression from Hel herself back at the Godsmoot.

[Rrmcklin]

It occurs to me that there hasn't been much discussion of what happens if Hilgya does tag along with the Order, keeping Kudzu with her.

[Dion]

It occurs to me that there hasn't been much discussion of what happens if Hilgya does tag along with the Order, keeping Kudzu with her.

We can probably figure out what will happen.

Redcloak will be upset about the baby.

Xykon will find a murderhobo baby hilarious, and will tell jokes.

Greyview will nod head, get treats.

MiTD will continue to not eat babies.

[martianmister]

Redcloak will be upset about the baby.

Why?


Xykon will find a murderhobo baby hilarious, and will tell jokes.

Murderhobo baby?

[mig el pig]

Hilgya might go on her own without the OotS, but I don't see her sitting this one out.

If only there was another party

- who are high lvl
- with some connection to the gates
- Recently lost a cleric
- Don't have any moral concerns
- has some beef with members of the OotS.

[KorvinStarmast]

Redcloak will be upset about the baby. Not sure why, other than (1) racial antipathy towards dwarves, or (2) generally being a Gloomy Gus style character.

Xykon will find a murderhobo baby hilarious, and will tell jokes. Or will he view Kudzu as a baby murderhobo, since Kudzu likes to say Tun Unn Deh over and over again?

Greyview will nod head, get treats. And will stay at arm's length to avoid the noogy threat from an enthusiastic baby
MiTD will continue to not eat babies. Because he's a good man. :smallcool:

[The MunchKING]

Yes, but not for being helplessly used as body armour.

Grey Wolf

To be fair to Kudzu's well, lack of battle prowess but willingness to engage anyway (like a Good Dwarf) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1099.html) he WAS literally trying to Turn Undead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1107.html) as after his mom fought the Vampires. :smalltongue:


I highly doubt that Hel is full with spirits of dead children.

Honestly she kinda seems like the type that she might just not fight for them very hard, because they are so small and didn't live much, so not much energy in turning them into soul bricks.


If only there was another party

- who are high lvl
- with some connection to the gates
- Recently lost a cleric
- Don't have any moral concerns
- has some beef with members of the OotS.

Who? The Frost Giants? They were mediocre levels at best.

OG LG? She and Sabine aren't going to do much without the rest of them.

The Mechanae crew? Did their cleric guy die? And they didn't have much to do with the Gates either...

No I have no idea who you are talking about.

[brian 333]

It just occurred to me that MITD's distaste for baby-eating might be foreshadowing Kudzu and she becoming BFFs.

[Dr.Zero]

If only there was another party

- who are high lvl
- with some connection to the gates
- Recently lost a cleric
- Don't have any moral concerns
- has some beef with members of the OotS.

:smallbiggrin:

But I don't think that the author will make a mostly evil party like the Vector Legion+Hilgya steal the spotlight from the heroes.
Even if, admitting Laurin and Myron survived at all, it will be clear to them all that the Snarl is not something to laugh at.
OTOH, I'm pretty sure Tarki is going to reassure them: "No worries, old friends, there are good guys fighting to save the world, they have better chances than us anyway. If we join the crusade, the best we can get is to be killed in some kind of heroic and redeeming sacrifice. More likely, we will be killed unceremoniously to prove that we are arrogant people and that crime doesn't pay."

[martianmister]

It just occurred to me that mig el pig was talking about Vector Legion.

[KorvinStarmast]

It just occurred to me that mig el pig was talking about Vector Legion. One member of that group is busy putting down an insurrection, and two of the others have decided to tell Tarquin to piss off for a while, as they were getting tired of his 'it's all about me' schtick.