What's your go-to 5th wheel PC concept?

[BowStreetRunner]

D&D 3.5 or Pathfinder

Given a chance to join an existing balanced party of 4 PCs, and assuming they fall within a fairly stereotypical mix of classes and roles, what would be your go-to build for a 5th wheel addition to the party?

Do you go for redundancy and create a PC fills the same role as an existing PC? Which role would that be? Or do you try to create a hybrid PC that can serve as a back up in more than one role, but doesn't outright compete with anyone? Or do you come up with a PC that fills a completely non-standard role?

I know in parties with 6 or more there is often duplication in several roles but the encounters being correctly balanced this rarely becomes an issue. However, a party of 5 seems almost caught between the tight 4 person party and the larger groups of 6+. It just has a feel to it that makes the 5th character feel a little bit more extraneous.

[ViperMagnum357]

Depends on the group-if it is a casual game, I try to play something friendly, like a Bard Inspiration build or an Aura buffer/debuffer that fills a lot of gaps without stepping on anyone's toes. If it is a regular group I have played with for a while, I go for the crazy builds-all or nothing, feast or famine, rockstar or dead weight with little in between.

[ezekielraiden]

Either a buff-happy Cleric, a quirky but dangerous Sorcerer, or an all-out crafter of some kind (not necessarily artificer...but probably). Everyone loves a guy who can hook them up with sweet loot on the cheap. The other two depend on my mood.

If it's a balls-to-the-walls charop group, probably Druid+Planar Shepherd+Lion of Talisid (if it looks like the game will go Epic). Throwing down like a gorram one-man army. The aggressively hegemonizing urine swarm will not be denied.

[Zaq]

I have a soft spot for Incarnate-heavy builds as 5th PC, with the primary focus being determined by level.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Hah. Just brought him out of retirement. Still gotta do WBL. https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1658627

[Quertus]

Honestly, I'd be too baffled at encountering a balanced, 4-person party to know what to think.

If I did manage to think, I'd probably go Cleric or Druid or Arcane Spellcaster, or otherwise pick something capable of healing the healer if he drops.

... Although, that assumes that I'm carrying about such gamist ideas. Really, I'd probably just pick whoever I wanted to play, same as I would in my more traditional 6+ person, completely unbalanced parties.

[Psyren]

Medium (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/occult-adventures/occult-classes/medium) or Alchemist (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/) usually. Pactmaker (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/pactmaker) if the GM is on board.

For 3.5, usually Totemist or some kind of theurge build that lets me back up *insert primary role here*.

[Vertharrad]

My go to's are bard or another martial(either melee or ranged). Bard as the combat multiplier(inspire courage). Another martial when I want to just beat more face in.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

I take a Crusader.

White Raven and Devoted Spirit is always good and make everyone happy(especially the ones who get White Raven tactics and stay alive from Devoted Spirit).
I am trying to get Song of the White Raven into the build for extra buff.

I give the party a meat shield, a flanking body and a buffer.

[ezekielraiden]

I take a Crusader.

White Raven and Devoted Spirit is always good and make everyone happy(especially the ones who get White Raven tactics and stay alive from Devoted Spirit).
I am trying to get Song of the White Raven into the build for extra buff.

I give the party a meat shield, a flanking body and a buffer.

Y'know, if I were allowed to fluff it as a Paladin? This would probably replace "buff-happy Cleric" in my list.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Y'know, if I were allowed to fluff it as a Paladin? This would probably replace "buff-happy Cleric" in my list.

A Crusader fluff is already fit a Paladin.

He is DEVOTED to a Deity or an Ideal.

Make your Ideal the Paladin code and make yourself LG.

Edit:
When I DMing there are no Paladins and if there are some they are Crusaders.

[Eldariel]

Uh, anything I feel like playing, really. Any of the decent classes have so many options that there's hardly an overlap anyways and any of the ****ty classes I wouldn't be interested in playing unless the game were specifically set up so that I wouldn't be bored to death by "I attack again".

But it would really depend on the game. Probably one of the main spellcaster classes with a quirk or two, such as the Warrior Wizard (without any classes granting BAB or other unnecessary nonsense) or Cleric Controller (actually really strong but kinda under the radar for most) or Dino Druid (Fleshrakers only if the game can handle that level though).

[Peat]

Probably a face who can beat in faces while having some other decent options. Bard/Oracle/Paladin etc.etc.

[Fouredged Sword]

Chameleon. The party has some little niche that will need filling now and then, so be everything.

[Elricaltovilla]

Depends on the party's actual composition, as there are a lot of different "balanced parties" out there, and the core example of a balanced party (fighter, cleric, wizard, rogue) really isn't all that balanced.

Buffing classes are always useful, as are scouts, tanks and melee support. To that end I'd look at things like bard or alchemist, ranger or druid, or something more exotic and interesting like an aegis or a warlord if I can get away with it.

[noob]

Sometimes you think you have all the roles covered until you discover the wizard only pepare blast spells and that the cleric only prepare boost spells and that the other guys are just sitting around waiting for the non battle stuff to end.
So sometimes you need to do all the non battle stuff and that involve tons of book keeping, scrolls and similar stuff.
Getting a true fifth wheel happens only if everybody is trying hard to cover all the roles and are ready to cast breath water or evaporate the ocean in case of oceans(and cast breath plot or evaporate the plot and so on) and have ways to manage nearly everything.

[heavyfuel]

I love skillmonkeys in general, so I'd go with secondary skill monkey. Bard is always nice,all three ToB classes have decent skills, maybe I'd even play an Incarnate for the first time ever.


Hah. Just brought him out of retirement. Still gotta do WBL. https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1658627

Oh boy, talk about a MAD character. 32 PB and nothing above 14 or below 13.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Probably some kind of hybrid that can do its own thing and still pick up the slack for one of the others if needed. Classes vary depending on what i'm in the mood for, but probably at least a partial spellcaster or a gish.
"More spells" is pretty hard to make redundant after all, even when the other casters are on top of their game.

[16bearswutIdo]

The answer is Monk.

The answer is always monk.

[CharonsHelper]

I'll +1 Bard.

But for other things -

1. Drunken Master/Sensei/Qinggong dwarf monk: I've STILL never got a chance to play this guy. (SOMEDAY!) They lose flurry, but they get the bard's Inspire Courage and Wisdom to hit. Starting at level 6 they can share their Qinggong abilities, and with their infinite Ki via Drunken Master they can through Barkskin on everyone, and starting at 10 they can throw Qinggong buffs on everyone within 30ft.

True Strike for everyone each round while Inspire Courage is going? Yes please!

2. A grappler. They don't really tank well, but they can shut down a single target.

3. 3.5's Spellthief. You have to have group buy-in, and it works better with a sorcerer instead of wizard filling the arcane slot (since they have spells to spare). I remember thinking that it was terrible on my first reading, but despite their name, they can't REALLY focus on just stealing spells. They mainly need to borrow their buddies' spells, getting the advantage of have 2 people casting them and using their chassis (mid BAB, Sneak Attack, & better physical stats) to use some (touch spells etc.) more effectively.

That - and every time a foe with spells or a spell-like goes down, make sure to suck off their spells before finishing them off.

Any spells which they can steal mid-combat via sneak attack (which can be gotten through touch/ray spells) is just gravy.

[JoshuaZ]

In person, I'd recommend a binder for 3.5 (or the PF updated version for PF). The binder's emphasis can change easily day to day so it fits really well as backup if another PC isn't able to make it that day. If playing online this is less of an issue and then a lot of the other suggestions make sense.

[zlefin]

bard. obviously it might be different depending on what the 4 players are; but if they have the typical fighter/rogue/cleric/wizard (or one of their equivalents) then bard is a good way to fill out the party and serve a somewhat different role. Support chars also get better the more party members there are.
Bards are also flexible enough that they can be built towards any role, and help cover any role that's a bit lacking.

[Efrate]

Binder, incarnate, shadowcaster, or anything weird that uses a new subsystem. You get versatility, something weird, and usually something weaker so you don't overshadow anyone. Its also a great way to get to do what you want with said class because all the roles are covered, so you don't need to try to half cover some role, just play what you want.

[PunBlake]

My go-to is a non-dragonfire IC Bard. Secondaries are Warlock, Artificer, and Scout. Even in a balanced party, there is a niche to fill with skill, damage, buffing, or crafting. I pick whichever fits and go to town.

[exelsisxax]

For power, a teamwork buffer like the bard. Skald, hunter, tactician, zealot, rajah, or warder.

For OOC agreeableness, a versatile teamworker/assist like bard, skald, alchemist, oracle, cleric, rajah, vitalist, or tactician.

For fictional continuity, whatever fits the character that would be maneuvered into the party without suspending verisimilitude.

For meta-awareness, almost anything that can attach like a parasite to the mythical juggernaut that is a balanced 4-man band. bard/skald(witness the legend in the making) druid(I need to keep these maniacs from destroying nature itself) wizard(my observations will get SO MANY PUBLICATIONS!) cleric/oracle(obviously, these people are tools of the gods and need guidance) wilder(POWER INCARNATE!!!) rogue(I'll get to steal things from GODS).

[Nifft]

Really depends on the optimization level of the campaign.

T1 cheeseballs? Anima Mage.

T1 naive? Druid.

T3 basic? Bard.

T3 experienced? Totemist.

T4+ gritty? Barbarian.

[Segev]

In truth? Probably a wizard. I play a lot of wizards.

But if I were really trying to take advantage of "fifth wheel" status to play something wonky...

Changeling Incarnate/Totemist->Chameleon who can be a different person every day if he wants.
White Dragon Wyrmling Dragonfire Adept. The class lets him be "a dragon" with a rather balanced advancement. (I would try to talk the DM into letting me trade his native cold breath for +1d6 to the class-granted cold breath effect.)

[Quertus]

I forgot Crusader for healing the healer in my last post. I'll also add "normally unplayable thing with crippling racial HD / level adjustment" as a decent choice for 5th wheel.

Also, homebrew. If all the bases are covered, it sounds like a good time to test some new bases.


wizard(my observations will get SO MANY PUBLICATIONS!)

Publications? Can it be that someone else plays the Quertus archetype?

[Segev]

Publications? Can it be that someone else plays the Quertus archetype?

I once played a Halfling wizard who was a graduate student at a magical university who was adventuring for extracurriculars for his grant applications. He had big, round glasses and a spellbook big enough for him to stand or sit on, which he'd enchanted as a Carpet of Flying.

[bean illus]

If i joined as !5th wheel! today i would ask if this worked.

Half Minotaur Half Human Factotum 3/Passive Way Monk 2
Feats:
Factotum 1- Able Learner, FoI
Monk 2- Passive way, Combat Expertise, Improved Unarmed Strike
Monk 3- Carmendine Monk, Improved Trip
Factotum 4- Factotum 5-
Wizard 6 - Conjurer Abrupt Jaunt ACF, Fighter Feat ACF (Improved Grapple), Knockdown
Chameleon 7-16
9- FoI 12- Open feat 15- Open feat

Maybe finish with binder or ToB

And then add VoP for fun (after spending WBL on wish attributes to Int,Str, & Dex, lol).

A teleporting, touch attacking, grappling/tripping reaching of a 5th wheel ...

... and when not in combat he 5th wheels as a mofo with skillzo Brains over Brawn style, or dumpster diving niche spells.

[lylsyly]

1. Bard 8/Arcane Archer 2/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso 8 (buff with music and spells, plink with bow as neccesary).

2. C. Cleric 4/Crusader 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10/C. Cleric +5 (Buff/Debuff and secondary melee)

3. Paladin 2/Sorcerer 8/ ??? fits my mood for a 10 level PRC depending on what she really needs to do to help out.

4. Dragonfire Adept 20

All depending on what the actual party makeup is. Many ways to fulfill the 4 basic roles and each combination has it's own strengths and weaknesses.

My main group always has five players and I almost always just fit myself to what the rest are going to do.

[BowStreetRunner]

The diversity of responses here is fascinating. I was expecting a more narrow range of ideas.

I never know when I'm going to have the chance to get into a new game. My time isn't as flexible as it used to be, so having a couple character builds already nearly complete would be an invaluable time-saver down the road. If I get into a game at the start, there usually is plenty of time to work on a new PC, as everyone else is in the same situation. However, the times I've dropped into an in-progress game have always been more problematic, because everyone else is already on the ground running, while I need time to pull a concept together. I've been considering putting together a couple of 5th wheel builds to have on hand just in case the opportunity to join a new game comes up. I just wasn't sure what builds I might want to keep on hand.

But the posts in this thread haven't helped to narrow my options at all. In fact, they suggested quite a few ideas I'd never thought of. :smalleek:

'Careful what you wish for', I guess would be the moral here! :smallbiggrin:

[Kelb_Panthera]

Oh boy, talk about a MAD character. 32 PB and nothing above 14 or below 13.

Oh I know it but ability boon makes up the difference quite handily and, even if it didn't, incarnate melds can support any archetype quite nicely. Still haven't decided which alignment to spin him this time though. One of the guys in my group suggested evil but I'm leaning toward good or chaos, honestly.

I'm hoping the GM will approve a variable ability booster ala multifaceted persona shard from ECS. Pretty sure I'll do alright either way though.

[noob]

The diversity of responses here is fascinating. I was expecting a more narrow range of ideas.

I never know when I'm going to have the chance to get into a new game. My time isn't as flexible as it used to be, so having a couple character builds already nearly complete would be an invaluable time-saver down the road. If I get into a game at the start, there usually is plenty of time to work on a new PC, as everyone else is in the same situation. However, the times I've dropped into an in-progress game have always been more problematic, because everyone else is already on the ground running, while I need time to pull a concept together. I've been considering putting together a couple of 5th wheel builds to have on hand just in case the opportunity to join a new game comes up. I just wasn't sure what builds I might want to keep on hand.

But the posts in this thread haven't helped to narrow my options at all. In fact, they suggested quite a few ideas I'd never thought of. :smalleek:

'Careful what you wish for', I guess would be the moral here! :smallbiggrin:

when all the roles are covered you can build anything you want.
you do not need to be specifically "fifth wheel" just build what you like(the fact there is no roles to fill means you can try fun classes like bard or tactician or whatever but you are not obligated to use a fun class if you prefer to be the fourth fighter because you like to throw attack rolls or whatever).

[BowStreetRunner]

when all the roles are covered you can build anything you want.
you do not need to be specifically "fifth wheel" just build what you like(the fact there is no roles to fill means you can try fun classes like bard or tactician or whatever but you are not obligated to use a fun class if you prefer to be the fourth fighter because you like to throw attack rolls or whatever).Noooooooo!

Too...many....choices....aaargh!!!

[CharonsHelper]

Noooooooo!

Too...many....choices....aaargh!!!

More seriously - some of it depends upon what level you come in at.

I know that the build I expanded upon the most (Drunken Master/Sensei/Qinggong Dwarf Monk) kinda sucks for the first few levels (They get fewer rounds of Inspire Courage than a bard which hurts early, and no qinggong moves to use until 4), and doesn't start to really work it until level 6 when they can give their Monk moves to their allies.

[lylsyly]

Noooooooo!

Too...many....choices....aaargh!!!


'Careful what you wish for', I guess would be the moral here! :smallbiggrin:

ROFL ... Why I have pretty much set in stone my four choices, all four of them can be switched around with skills, feats, weapon choices, spell selection ect. to meet whatever is lacking among the other four. I didn't mention it previously but I usually also end up playing face because nobody else likes to.

[Troacctid]

I just play whatever I want, unless someone else is playing the same thing, in which case I either switch to a different concept or change up the build to create a stronger contrast. For example, if I want to play a Druid but there's already a Druid, I might switch in some ACFs and stuff and take different skills to differentiate my character.

[Kelb_Panthera]

While Art is my favorite 5th wheel character ever, there's no getting around the fact that being a 5th wheel is a golden opportunity to try something you're not familiar with our concepts you're not 100% certain are actually viable.

[Eldonauran]

I tend to gravitate towards support role characters when I play. I design characters that can fit into just about every role in a way that is adequate, or better, than the intended optimization level for whatever adventure path we are currently playing. I can do a little bit of everything, and then I specialize in a few neat abilities available to the class I chose to play.

[Florian]

The 5th slot is pretty good for jack-of-all-trades classes.

So Alchemist, Bard and Occultist.

[ngilop]

I would go with a supporting role, not in the whole support as a role: but maybe like a fighter who took a couple levels in rogue; a Hybrid class like a Ranger/Paladin/Hexblade; some off the wall build, like a wizard who puts all his stuff into making his familiar an unstoppable killing machine

[TheStranger]

Definitely no wrong answer, other than try to avoid stealing anybody's thunder by doing their shtick better. Just because there's already a well-balanced group, though, doesn't mean that you should feel like you have to take a support role. It certainly fits well in most cases if you like playing support roles, but just because you're late to the party doesn't mean your character is secondary somehow.

You can also take the opportunity to fill a role that might be too one-dimensional or underpowered for a smaller party, but that you think you might enjoy playing. Blaster sorcerer, melee glass cannon, archer, etc. Or something that takes a while to come online, like a gish. Mostly, just play whatever you think will be fun.

[One Step Two]

When making a 5th wheel, if the party needs a support class, I like to pick between Ranger, Bard or Artificer.
If have the opportunity to do otherwise I like branching out with builds that might take a little time to get online, or straight up flavorful. For example classes that might be setting specific, like the Mariner, Master, or Noble from Dragonlance Campaign setting, as well as things that are moderately powerful, but hyper specific, such as an Assassin, something that can be a useful, or a foil to the party for roleplay reasons.

[ericgrau]

If everything's already covered then I play whatever I want to have the most fun. Though within that I might favor strats that work well with others more like mass buffing and BFC.

[Doctor Awkward]

Bard.

I have a particular Bard 4/Warblade 16 build that uses Dragonfire Inspiration and Song of the White Raven that I play when all other roles are already filled.

He is a huge force multiplier for melee party members, and is capable of carrying the melee role alone if he is the only one really benefiting from his buffs.

[DMVerdandi]

Everyone usually says "play a jack of all trades, master of none", and I think that is the weakest choice one could make. 5th wheel? Play another T1 class.
Double the potency of whatever you got going on. The more lackadaisical you make your fifth member, the more irrelevant they become. Also, read the power level of the group and such.

Play a strong class, not one meant to be milquetoast. Lets say wizard, archivist, Artificer, Cleric, druid, and erudite are the options.

>If there is already a wizard in the party, two increases the variety that both have, and they can share spells. Not only that, you can have each specialize in a different school.

>If The 5th character is an archivist, and there are other divine characters, they can work with them to create scrolls and increase their own power and versatility.

>If the fifth character is an artificer, they can help by assisting in creation of new magic items, as well as being a force multiplier with their own infusions.

>If there is already a cleric, and the 5th is one as well, you can have them both doing their own thing, and crafting their daily lists as to not step on each other's toes, as well as roleplaying interest with there being two preachers possibly having different worldviews due to deities/philosophies.

>If the 5th character is a druid, they can add their own wildness to the party mix, casting pretty well, having their animal companion being the 6th man, and wild shaping when the time calls for it. Also can be secondary offensive caster, healer, or tank with wild shape.

>If the fifth character is an Erudite, they can bring psionic might to the party mix, as well as being adaptable and quick to take on new challenges. Going thrall heard gives you a 6th and 7th for support.




All of these IMO are far more attractive clutch/anchor members than monk or bard [even if others have fun playing them, that's great].

There is no rule that the 5th man has to not play an archetype that others have, or cannot play a class that is widely considered "strong"; as if they are doomed to play something that isn't exactly necessary or potent as to not step on the other 4 members toes.

[PhantasyPen]

Hmm, I can't say I've ever done a "fifth wheel" character, since I'm usually our DPS/Tank character almost by default.

If I had the option though, I'd probably use a Dragon Shaman for a lower-op party, and a T1/T2 caster/psion for higher op.

[SLOTHRPG95]

I mean, as clearly noted above, Bard is always tempting for this role. But I think just as much money can be made from a quirky build like a Shugenja (Water) 4/Sorcerer 4/Mystic Theurge X or a Rogue 3/Ranger 2/Fighter 2/Nightsong Enforcer X. They can only really cover two roles instead of all four and they're not even really optimal at that, but they're weird and fun.

[sleepyphoenixx]

All of these IMO are far more attractive clutch/anchor members than monk or bard [even if others have fun playing them, that's great].

There is no rule that the 5th man has to not play an archetype that others have, or cannot play a class that is widely considered "strong"; as if they are doomed to play something that isn't exactly necessary or potent as to not step on the other 4 members toes.
It's less about strength or classes itself and more about "stealing" someones role.
That's less of a problem for casters of course - you could make a 4 wizard party and have them all play completely differently pretty easily - but it matters for melee and skillmonkeys or if you're building for the same role, like a second blaster sorc. Especially if you're better at it than the other guy. Nobody wants to play second fiddle after all.
It also depends a lot on the players involved. Some people are just more sensitive about it than others.

Also bards are pretty damn powerful if build right. Putting them on a level with the monk is doing the class a huge disservice.

[lylsyly]

The thing about the Bard is this: It can be built to fulfill most any role.

Secondary Melee? Sure, not great but fair, and with bardic music/spells/skills as a bonus.

Secondary Caster? Absolutely, get 9ths from Wiz/Sorc list via Sublime Chord, and with Bardic Music/Skills/ maybe a bit of melee if needed (Built right can almost match a sorcerer, oops, did I really say that, LOL).

Skill monkey? Absolutely, Possibly the best FACE in the game (Yeah, I know I just stepped on some toes). Skills to make a good scout as well. All knowledge skills as class skills make for party Librarian as well. And with Bardic Music and spells on the side.

Ranged Combatant? Bard 8/Arcane Archer 2/Sublime Chord 10 give you an idea? And you still have bardic music and skills available.

Buffer? Yep, an Inspire Courage/Dragonfire Inspiration optimized build with 9ths via sublime chord can provide a lot of BOOST to the entire party. with skills to also cover face or scout or whatever is needed skill wise.

Playable as a straight Bard 20? Yep. although for caster focused builds you really should hit Sublime Chord. Melee types and caster can both benefit from Abjurant Champion. Bardic music can be helped out by Virtuoso as well.

Be marginally acceptable at all roles? Meh, you need to focus on one role, or maybe 2 depending on which roles.

Have a handbook (http://www.joshuad.net/new-bard-handbook/).

Just my 2 credits coppers
YMMV