Thought experiment: no prereq PrCs

[Mike Miller]

I was thinking about what characters could be like if there were no requirements for prestige classes. In other words, any PrC could be taken at level one. What would characters be like? What would have to be altered/banned? I feel like a lot of good options are good because of when they come around. Archmage, for example, wouldn't be so great too early because the SLA ability is good for high level spells. Any fast caster like Ur-Priest would probably have to be banned, though. Sublime Chord would also not be doable as is. I don't think dual casting progressing PrCs would be problematic. Any other things to look out for with this setup? Any interesting builds that suddenly become possible, whether fun or powerful?

[Troacctid]

Well, one side effect would be that Warlocks (and Shadowcasters) get a lot more options, because they can now take whatever spellcasting classes they want without having to respect spell level prerequisites that they normally can't meet.

[gorfnab]

Many prestige classes do not have weapon and armor proficiencies, so you would have to make some adjustments there (also included would be starting gold, 4x skill points at first level like base classes, etc.). While your example of Archmage at level 1 is interesting, it is problematic. For prestige classes that advance casting you may want to stipulate that you have to have 1 level in the casting class that you want advance first (ie. Wizard 1/ Archmage X).

[ezekielraiden]

You'd get some real weirdness from the classes that advance some other class's spell slots/spells per day and spells known, as well as some other...oddities. For example, even if you solve the "what classes are you advancing if you *don't have any casting classes*" question, there are other issues. If I take my very first level as Arcane Hierophant, can I advance my wildshape and animal companion if I choose Druid as my Divine class to advance? If I have a PrC that, say, "stacks with" the levels of a class that grants sneak attack, but does not in and of itself grant sneak attack, does this mean I have no sneak attack dice until I get a level of a class that has it (at which point I have all PrC levels PLUS that new class level), or do I have a normal sneak attack progression?

It's not obvious how to solve all the consequences of a thing like this. It certainly would make double-caster progression classes EXTREMELY happy. An Arcane Heirophant (10)/Mystic Theurge (10) can have fully maxed out spells for two different casting classes, potentially on top of 10 levels' worth of Druid wildshape and animal companion. (Is there any other double-caster progression PrC that advances Druid stuff?) Geomancer suddenly becomes an insanely good PrC: you still get to advance your one chosen class, but can get the nifty Drift buffs *and* maxed Spell Versatility without sacrificing a single caster level. A Wizard 1/Geomancer 10/Wizard 9 (taking Cleric as her non-advancing divine caster class) can wear any armor, has Drift buffs for generic passive effects and plenty of Wizard goodies.

[Troacctid]

You'd get some real weirdness from the classes that advance some other class's spell slots/spells per day and spells known, as well as some other...oddities. For example, even if you solve the "what classes are you advancing if you *don't have any casting classes*" question, there are other issues. If I take my very first level as Arcane Hierophant, can I advance my wildshape and animal companion if I choose Druid as my Divine class to advance? If I have a PrC that, say, "stacks with" the levels of a class that grants sneak attack, but does not in and of itself grant sneak attack, does this mean I have no sneak attack dice until I get a level of a class that has it (at which point I have all PrC levels PLUS that new class level), or do I have a normal sneak attack progression?
That's all covered well enough in existing rules. Most prestige classes won't advance casting for a class you didn't already have. For example, you mentioned Arcane Hierophant, which says "At each level, you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class and a level in a divine spellcasting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level." Without another spellcasting class, you'd gain no benefit, since there's no valid choice. This paradigm is pretty universal, and for the most part, exceptions are called out in the text as such. Similarly, Arcane Hierophant is pretty clear on what happens if you don't have wildshape: "If you do not already possess the ability, you gain no new ability to wild shape."

[Saintheart]

One side effect is that martial types get a lot more interesting if not more effective at much lower levels. I wouldn't mind trying out a Exotic Weapon Master/War Hulk/Hulking Hurler/Kensai/Ashworm Dragoon just for the lulz.

[NontheistCleric]

One side effect is that martial types get a lot more interesting if not more effective at much lower levels. I wouldn't mind trying out a Exotic Weapon Master/War Hulk/Hulking Hurler/Kensai/Ashworm Dragoon just for the lulz.

You'd have to waste feats on proficiencies, though, since that character would not be proficient in any weapons or armor.

[daremetoidareyo]

I've run a 2 shot based on this.

If the prestige class is full bab, give it fighter weapon pros,
if its medium BAB, grant simple weapons, and a single ranged martial weapon and a single melee martial weapon proficiency,
if its poor BAB grant simple weapon pros.

Eyeball the armor proficiencies.

I let people choose the casting mechanic for the prestige class.

[Kayblis]

You'd run into clear power problems with classes that assume you're at a certain level. Many summoning or scenery-altering classes that have set powers like the Master of Shrouds or the Sea Witch would be terrifying forces at lower levels simply because their powers, usually appropriate for higher levels, royally clean the floor with anything you get at usual progression. So there would be a clear distinction between classes with set powers and classes based around advancement.

There would also be no reason at all for most archetypes not to have a certain PrC that's really good at doing its job, but is usually restricted by race, size or combinations of BAB and spellcasting. Suddenly, playing a tiefling kinda feels the same as playing a water orc or a fairy, as special restrictions don't apply anymore. You'd also see Monk/Frenzied Berserkers and Paladin/Assassins without the alignment prereqs.

Every initator would have Master of Nine. Archmage suddenly becomes common. Most easy access classes will basically become extinct because what they offer can't compete with classes with lots of prereqs. Any PrC with +10 BAB req would probably dominate the low level scene.

Of course, that's assuming the players want to play optimized games. If your group is the kind that picks True Necromancer and such, you won't see much of a change.

[Peat]

Fochulan Lyricist gets a lot more popular.

Arcane Archer becomes viable and cool.

[Cosi]

In general, I think this is a good idea. There's a greater variety of PrCs than base classes, and generally a level of a PrC is about as good as a level of a base class. One thing that would alleviate power concerns would be to switch from eliminating prerequisites entirely to using level based prerequisites. So Archmage would still require you to be a 13th level character to enter, but you could get in without the skill ranks or spell diversity. I would also strongly encourage buffing partial-progression caster PrCs to full progression. Mindbender's class features aren't as good as the best caster PrCs, so making it half progression just makes characters who want to specialize as Enchanters worse.

As far as characters go, it seems like going Beguiler/Unseen Seer/Arcane Trickster does pretty much everything a Rogue does, but better (to an even larger degree than the Beguiler already does). Going into Abjurant Champion immediately lets you throw down swift dispel magic as soon as you can cast it, which is pretty neat. Warshaper into Master of Many Forms or Planar Shepherd (wherever demons come from) gives you basically permanent shapechange if you get the Multimorph capstone from Warshaper. Assassin (or various other up-to-4ths casting PrCs) gives you respectable casting for the first half of the game. Chameleon is probably busted since you can cast planar binding at 5th level. Going Wayfarer Guide at 1st level is kinda funny. Going Dragonmark Heir makes you a pretty powerful caster until you stop getting abilities at 5th level (whatever the equivalent web enhancement PrC for Aberrant Marks is even better, because those have nicer offensive abilities).


Archmage, for example, wouldn't be so great too early because the SLA ability is good for high level spells.

The SLA ability isn't really that good at all unless you can figure out some way to circumvent the costs (some readings of Supernatural Transformation, the web rulings on SLAs for casting time). But it's not particularly worse for low level spells. Getting an extra use of glitterdust or color spray every day is a pretty good deal.


I don't think dual casting progressing PrCs would be problematic.

Worst case, any combination of casters with two theurge PrCs gets 19th level casting out of both. I think that probably dominates a lot of non-caster options that might otherwise be more interesting. There's also the more general problem of Theurges -- they don't have enough levels to cover the whole progression, so there's a big variance at high levels between combos that have two PrCs (Arcanist/Rogue, Arcanist/Druid) and those that don't (pretty much any theurge for a new class like Binder or Shadowcaster).

[The Viscount]

Classes that grant casting of their own are now significantly stronger.

Nar Demonbinder stands out in that it would start you with an (admittedly small) list beginning at 4th level spells, putting you far ahead of most level 1 characters.

How far would the ban on fast advancement have to go? What about classes like assassin or blackguard that only learn up to 4ths? They're "fast" as compared to other classes that learn 4ths, and such classes are now weaker by comparison, but they unlock a new spell level every 2 levels, so that's "normal" advancement compared to full casters.

[Nifft]

Any PrC with its own casting progression would need careful attention.

Cleric 1 / Wizard 1 / MT 10 might be fine if the basis of comparison is Warmage 1 / Rainbow Servant 10 (text-trumps-table edition).

I guess the main question is: what level of optimization do you want? What sorts of PrCs will you include in your game?

[Quertus]

Illithid Savant could finally see play before epic!

Speaking of which, are any of the epic prestige classes suddenly playable / ridiculous?

How about Dragon (the race, not the publication) prestige classes?

[Gemini476]

If nothing else, this makes Dragon Ascendant a pretty interesting option. Although I'm not sure if you can get the Awesome Aura if you didn't previously have Frightful Presence, "become a quasi-diety at 12th level" is a good hook.


Worst case, any combination of casters with two theurge PrCs gets 19th level casting out of both. I think that probably dominates a lot of non-caster options that might otherwise be more interesting. There's also the more general problem of Theurges -- they don't have enough levels to cover the whole progression, so there's a big variance at high levels between combos that have two PrCs (Arcanist/Rogue, Arcanist/Druid) and those that don't (pretty much any theurge for a new class like Binder or Shadowcaster).

Shadowcaster's a bad example - it's one of the few classes that actually gets double 9's naturally through theurges with just Core+1 book. For whatever reason, it gets to advance as if a divine caster in Mystic Theurge and the like.
The Binder is definitely a good example, though.

[OgresAreCute]

Shadowcaster's a bad example - it's one of the few classes that actually gets double 9's naturally through theurges with just Core+1 book. For whatever reason, it gets to advance as if a divine caster in Mystic Theurge and the like.
The Binder is definitely a good example, though.

I feel like if your DM is willing to do something wacky like no prereqs for prestige classes, then you could probably persuade them to replace divine progression in an arcane/divine theurge with +1 binding per level or something like that. Maybe use one of the invocation theurges as a basis and replace warlock with binder. Would be slightly harder to do with incarnum stuff since chakra progression is given as a class feature and not just a column in a table like spellcasting is.

[Jack_Simth]

Classes that grant casting of their own are now significantly stronger.They are... but as you noted, this has some caveats. Sure: Ur-Priest (Goes 1-9, but entry requirements normally prevent you from being ahead of a pure Cleric for more than about four levels), Beholder Mage (goes 1-9, but requirements make it normally inaccessible to PC's), Sublime Chord (goes 4-9, but entry requirements normally put you a level behind a Sorcerer at peak), Divine Crusader (goes 1-9, but entry requirements normally mean you're not getting 9ths until about 17th), Apostle of Peace (goes 1-9, but again, entry requirements normally prevent 9ths until about 17th), and similar are all very powerful due to the quick access to 9th's ... but take, say, the Chameleon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?page=1&x=dnd/iw/20041210b):
Really great at 1st level: 2nd level spells, and totally worth taking all the way to 10th... but what happens after that? Unless you use stepladder tricks (e.g., heighten Detect Magic to 6th, apply both Sanctum Spell and Earth Spell, and be able to cast an 8th level spell out of a 6th level slot... take Extra Slot at this point, and you now have a 7th level spell slot... Heighten Detect Magic to 7th, apply both Sanctum Spell and Earth Spell, and you're able to cast a 9th level spell out of a 7th level slot... repeat, and at the third taking of Extra Slot, you have an actual 9th level spell slot available... and the Chameleon gets that floating bonus feat to stepladder very quickly this way, even before 6th level spells become natively available), there's very little advancement path for 11th and higher, which means you're mostly starting over again.

So... yeah, those would need to be individually weighed.

[Cosi]

One thing that strikes me from this is how bad the issue of PrCs running a fixed number of levels and then not giving you a transition out is. For example, the Dragonmark Heir. For the five levels it runs, you do get basically level-appropriate SLAs. But then the class ends, and you're left with a build that can't really go anywhere. That's something that really needs to be fixed.


Really great at 1st level: 2nd level spells, and totally worth taking all the way to 10th... but what happens after that? Unless you use stepladder tricks (e.g., heighten Detect Magic to 6th, apply both Sanctum Spell and Earth Spell, and be able to cast an 8th level spell out of a 6th level slot... take Extra Slot at this point, and you now have a 7th level spell slot... Heighten Detect Magic to 7th, apply both Sanctum Spell and Earth Spell, and you're able to cast a 9th level spell out of a 7th level slot... repeat, and at the third taking of Extra Slot, you have an actual 9th level spell slot available... and the Chameleon gets that floating bonus feat to stepladder very quickly this way, even before 6th level spells become natively available), there's very little advancement path for 11th and higher, which means you're mostly starting over again.

As noted, I think the Chameleon is just straight up busted. It was already fairly competitive with full casters (at least, for as long as the PrC lasted) because you could dumpster dive off other lists. Now you can cast animate dead and desecrate at 1st level. Then in combat you can drop haste as a 1st level spell. At 3rd level you get lesser planar binding. Yeah, the class is kind of bad at really high levels (though TBH, you can just go for Incantatrix or something and start gishing), but at low levels it's every bit as crazy broken as the other classes you listed.


If nothing else, this makes Dragon Ascendant a pretty interesting option. Although I'm not sure if you can get the Awesome Aura if you didn't previously have Frightful Presence, "become a quasi-diety at 12th level" is a good hook.

If it weren't for the lost caster level, some of PrCs that progress casting would be pretty good for gishes.


Shadowcaster's a bad example - it's one of the few classes that actually gets double 9's naturally through theurges with just Core+1 book. For whatever reason, it gets to advance as if a divine caster in Mystic Theurge and the like.

Huh, I did not know that.


I feel like if your DM is willing to do something wacky like no prereqs for prestige classes, then you could probably persuade them to replace divine progression in an arcane/divine theurge with +1 binding per level or something like that. Maybe use one of the invocation theurges as a basis and replace warlock with binder. Would be slightly harder to do with incarnum stuff since chakra progression is given as a class feature and not just a column in a table like spellcasting is.

Certainly you could. The DM could also just extend the relevant Theurge PrCs (my preference). There's no reason you should stop being able to combine Binding and Arcane Magic after ten levels of doing so.

[Jack_Simth]

As noted, I think the Chameleon is just straight up busted. It was already fairly competitive with full casters (at least, for as long as the PrC lasted) because you could dumpster dive off other lists. Now you can cast animate dead and desecrate at 1st level. Then in combat you can drop haste as a 1st level spell. At 3rd level you get lesser planar binding. Yeah, the class is kind of bad at really high levels (though TBH, you can just go for Incantatrix or something and start gishing), but at low levels it's every bit as crazy broken as the other classes you listed.Keep in mind: You're not comparing a Chameleon-10 to a Wizard-10 (Chameleon would win, no contest there! Chameleon is Wizard+Cleric+a few other things at that point), you're comparing a Chameleon-10 to [Other (combo) PrC]-10. Balance is relative. Does a Chameleon-10 fare as well against a Sublime Chord-1/Divine Crusader-1/Mystic-Theurge-8? What about a Beholder Mage-1/Ur-Priest-1/Mystic Theurge-8?

So... I suppose what happens in the thought experiment is:
Your table finds a new game balance point to have fun with, after some experimentation and some (possibly un)spoken agreements.

[Blue Jay]

I was thinking about what characters could be like if there were no requirements for prestige classes. In other words, any PrC could be taken at level one. What would characters be like? What would have to be altered/banned? I feel like a lot of good options are good because of when they come around. Archmage, for example, wouldn't be so great too early because the SLA ability is good for high level spells. Any fast caster like Ur-Priest would probably have to be banned, though. Sublime Chord would also not be doable as is. I don't think dual casting progressing PrCs would be problematic. Any other things to look out for with this setup? Any interesting builds that suddenly become possible, whether fun or powerful?

Whatever you do, it will require some ad-hoc tinkering to keep things in line, because there are so many prestige classes that it's going to be impossible to account for all the possible complications. But, I think it's a great idea, because PrCs offer a lot of specific variety, and many of them don't become available for play normally until their niche is already obsolete.

I'm actually preparing to try this out in E6 format for a game on Myth-Weavers, but I've gotten overextended in my other Myth-Weavers game and haven't been able to start it yet.

I think it will be fine for E6, as long as I set ground rules and establish a rapport with the players.

One thing I've done is give the setting a "hard ceiling" for spellcasters, so PCs can never gain access to spells above 3rd level, and can't have spell slots above that level either. I'm flat-banning accelerated casters like Ur-Priest and forbidding any under-leveled spells on a PrC spell list (e.g., Trapsmith).

Another thing to watch out for is shapeshifting and companion creatures. I've instituted rules that forbid you from getting access to shapeshift forms or companions that exceed your ECL. So, you can't take the 1st level of Bear Warrior or the 1st level of Beloved of Valarian until your ECL exceeds the ECL of a black bear or a unicorn (respectively).

I'm also saying a PrC can't advance a class feature you don't have. So, e.g., a casting PrC can't advance your spellcasting unless you take a level of a spellcasting class first. I make an exception for proficiencies: if a PrC doesn't offer weapon or armor proficiencies, I'll work with the player to choose a limited set of proficiencies that fit the class fluff, but is more limited than a base class would grant (e.g., Exotic Weapon Master might grant a single exotic proficiency).

Using E6 also gives a lot of the "weak" martial PrCs a bit more of a niche when the prereqs are removed. For example, Order of the Bow Initiate and Tempest give you stuff that would be interesting and useful in low-level play, but they aren't normally accessible at low levels.

But, in general, it's just going to need playtesting to build up a database of things to watch out for.

[Nifft]

Using the E6 rules you might see stuff Telflammar Shadowpouncer 4 / Swordsage 2, with Swordsage taken afterwards to get slightly higher level maneuvers.

Nice to have [Teleport] all day, even if you never see the higher-level Swift action version.

-- -- --

You might also do a thing with Racial Paragon classes, allowing them to give spellcasting if you don't already have it. Then you'd be able to go Racial Paragon / PrC to progress spellcasting with no base class levels.

[Kalkra]

Beholder Mage-1/Ur-Priest-1/MT-9 would be pretty nice. Actually, scratch that. Beholder Mage-1/Ur-Priest-1/MT-1/Legacy Champion-8 would be better, because Legacy Champion makes everything better.