Bear Druid with Bear Companion build

[ImperialPM]

So... Yeah, another bear thread.

I'm making a character for our next session. It's going to be a human druid. We're starting at level 6. My plan is to have a bear, and become a bear, and melee fight.
Most druid builds I've seen focus more on spawning animals and using spells, I don't care that much about it. I like more spells to buff myself or my bear.
Other builds forget about the companion and optimize the Wild Form, but I want my companion bear to be strong.

Even though I'm going to be level 6, I always like to prepare as if I were level 20, so I can plan ahead. So, how should I build my character?
The only things I've thought already are Natural Bonds and Natural Spells

Thanks :D

EDIT: Sorry... 3.5e, I can use the core books and the complete books, but I can talk to the DM to use something outside of it.

[Luckmann]

Straight 3e, 3.5, PF, or basically everything mashed together?

[Saintheart]

Straight 3e, 3.5, PF, or basically everything mashed together?

It's a question that has a lot of bearing on the issue.

[jdizzlean]

here is a thing you should ask for....

Great Druid’s Staff – Dire Bear: Magic of Faerun 170: +2 quarterstaff, 1/day summon 1d3 dire bears as SNA

[Fizban]

Any spell that would buff your druid will buff your bear, thanks to Share Spells letting you turn personal into touch (or rather, target: you into touch is what it says exactly).

I'm mostly here for a bit of trivia(?): I was recently looking up some animal stuff since a youtube vid had got me thinking about accuracy of dnd animal stats again, and found that "grizzly"/"brown" bears are not typically as large as they are portrayed in MM1. The MM1 bear is at the far upper end of grizzly bears (or Eurasian brown bears, if you're thinking medieval Europe), possibly even off the charts, while the bear with average stats to match is actually the Kodiak bear, found only on the Kodiak archipelago.

So the assumption that a druid can just walk into any woods and get an uber bear is kinda based on the designers conflating the more common grizzly with the larger Kodiak and thus making DnD bears more powerful. This amuses me greatly :smallsmile:

[ImperialPM]

Straight 3e, 3.5, PF, or basically everything mashed together?
Oh, sorry, I though I put that in the post... 3.5. Preferably, core or complete books, but I can talk to the DM if I wanna get something outside of it.


here is a thing you should ask for....

Great Druid’s Staff – Dire Bear: Magic of Faerun 170: +2 quarterstaff, 1/day summon 1d3 dire bears as SNA
Nice. More bears are awesome

[Darrin]

Well, ideally you'd want an Anthropomorphic Black Bear (Savage Species, 2 RHD + 2 LA) + Human Heritage (Races of Destiny) who is also a Were-Bear (inherited lycanthropy, LA +2), but that's already 8 HD and LA +4 before you take any druid levels.

Then again, nothing wrong with a human druid who turns into a bear.

[Nifft]

Totem Druid (a variant class in Dragon #335) gives you Bear wild shape from level 1, which is irrelevant because you're starting at level 6, but it also gives you free Natural Spell as a bonus feat and locks you into having a bear companion and only using bears for your wild shape.

Sentinel of Bharrai (Book of Exalted Deeds) can be taken at level 6, and gives you a bear-only wild shape equivalent at ECL 9. Costs two feats, but you can progress Cleric or Wizard casting in addition to bear-specific wild shape.

The feat Wild Cohort (from WotC's web archive (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a)) can give any character a bear at level 7+, which is not where you start but it might be useful. If you're a Druid, this bear would stack with your Druid bear, so you could stand on the pair of them like very angry fuzzy slippers.

[PunBlake]

A half-elf bar-bear-ian 1 / totem druid 4 / Wildrunner 3 / Bear Warrior (CWarr) 1 with Natural Bond and Extra Rage is funny. You can wild shape into a bear, then bear-warrior rage to add stats on top, then Primal Scream as a bear.

[ImperialPM]

Totem Druid (a variant class in Dragon #335) gives you Bear wild shape from level 1, which is irrelevant because you're starting at level 6, but it also gives you free Natural Spell as a bonus feat and locks you into having a bear companion and only using bears for your wild shape.

Sentinel of Bharrai (Book of Exalted Deeds) can be taken at level 6, and gives you a bear-only wild shape equivalent at ECL 9. Costs two feats, but you can progress Cleric or Wizard casting in addition to bear-specific wild shape.

The feat Wild Cohort (from WotC's web archive) can give any character a bear at level 7+, which is not where you start but it might be useful. If you're a Druid, this bear would stack with your Druid bear, so you could stand on the pair of them like very angry fuzzy slippers.


A half-elf bar-bear-ian 1 / totem druid 4 / Wildrunner 3 / Bear Warrior (CWarr) 1 with Natural Bond and Extra Rage is funny. You can wild shape into a bear, then bear-warrior rage to add stats on top, then Primal Scream as a bear.

Sentinel of Bharrai seems interesting... sadly it doesn't improve animal companion.
I thought about Bear Warrior but it doesn't last that long. I might think about it again some time ahead.
Wildrunner I'll save it for a more memeish character.
Wild Cohort is to be considered, you can't have enough bears.

Totem Druid might be the thing I'm looking for. Although I'm not sure if I'm understanding everything correctly...

- Totem Animal Companion is like Animal Companion but I add 2 to my druid level to determine stats and those things? For example, usually animal companion gets Multiple Attack at lvl 9, but a totem animal companion would get it at lvl 7. Also, usually I can take Dire Bear as an animal companion at lvl 13, but I could take Dire Bear at lvl 11 with totem animal companion. Is this correct?

- Totem Shape planar form, it is like always on? Or, for example, in lvl 20, can I choose to be a Bear, a Celestial Bear, a Dire Bear, or a Celestial Dire Bear?

- Last one, which Bear may I be? Black, Brown, Polar? Anyone? And how does it work with HD? Normal Wild Shape says you can't choose an animal who has more HD than your druid lvl. Totem Druid ignores this?

[Vizzerdrix]

Make sure to gra improved unarmed strike so you can fight with yyour bear hands :smallbiggrin:

[Nifft]

Sentinel of Bharrai seems interesting... sadly it doesn't improve animal companion.
(...)
Wild Cohort is to be considered, you can't have enough bears. You can take a feat to get +4 to your Animal Companion level, kinda like Practiced Spellcaster. Not optimal, but makes Sentinel of Bearrai slightly better.

I don't think it applies to Wild Cohort but you don't need it.

Silverwood Arcanist is a PrC built around riding your Wild Cohort, might be good for a Bear Wizard. It's in the same series of web articles as Wild Cohort.



Totem Druid might be the thing I'm looking for. Although I'm not sure if I'm understanding everything correctly...

- Totem Animal Companion is like Animal Companion but I add 2 to my druid level to determine stats and those things? For example, usually animal companion gets Multiple Attack at lvl 9, but a totem animal companion would get it at lvl 7. Also, usually I can take Dire Bear as an animal companion at lvl 13, but I could take Dire Bear at lvl 11 with totem animal companion. Is this correct?

- Totem Shape planar form, it is like always on? Or, for example, in lvl 20, can I choose to be a Bear, a Celestial Bear, a Dire Bear, or a Celestial Dire Bear?

- Last one, which Bear may I be? Black, Brown, Polar? Anyone? And how does it work with HD? Normal Wild Shape says you can't choose an animal who has more HD than your druid lvl. Totem Druid ignores this?

Totem Druid does seem to ignore HD, since you can turn into a Tiger at level 1.

However the type of bear that you get is not specified, therefore it's up to the DM to decide.

Their planar thing is weird. When I allow Totem Druid, I tend to house-rule that into something completely different.

[liquidformat]

First off Natural Bond doesn't work unless you are entering a prc or other class that doesn't increase your animal companion so it is useless for straight druid unless dm fiat...

Second look at taking Companion Spellbond increases the distance between you and your bear from 5' to 30' for sharing spells. Bite of X spells from SC is your new best friend, so are bark skin, enrage animal, magic fang, animal growth... don't have books with me to see what else.

Third black bears kind of really suck so be sure to bump it up to brown bear at level 7. Side note talk to dm and see if you can reskin your bear into a polar bear, dire bear, or dire polar bear and just adjust to the next bigger bear stats each time you get to the appropriate level. Or just stick with Brown Bear they are quite good.

Fourth Straight druid is probably your best bet for this build.

Fifth lion or large cat theme is a more optimal version of this build and you could use Lion of Talisid. Though maybe not as much fun thematically.

[ImperialPM]

Their planar thing is weird. When I allow Totem Druid, I tend to house-rule that into something completely different.
What do you do in those cases?


First off Natural Bond doesn't work unless you are entering a prc or other class that doesn't increase your animal companion so it is useless for straight druid unless dm fiat...
As I understand, it does work if you grab a "better" animal companion.
For example, as a Druid 6, I can take a Black Bear but I would be considered a Druid 3 in order to determine additional HD, abilities, etc. Natural Bond would make me as a Druid 6 again. So I'm not over my own Druid level.


Second look at taking Companion Spellbond increases the distance between you and your bear from 5' to 30' for sharing spells. Bite of X spells from SC is your new best friend, so are bark skin, enrage animal, magic fang, animal growth... don't have books with me to see what else.
Companion Spellbond seems very useful. I think I'll keep it.


Third black bears kind of really suck so be sure to bump it up to brown bear at level 7. Side note talk to dm and see if you can reskin your bear into a polar bear, dire bear, or dire polar bear and just adjust to the next bigger bear stats each time you get to the appropriate level. Or just stick with Brown Bear they are quite good.
I haven't thought about that, that's a good idea. I was willing to have brown bears for ever, because I don't like polar bear (as in it doesn't fit in my character), but I'll ask my DM.

[liquidformat]

Ya if you are shooting for dire bear, polar can be refluffed as the jump between brown and dire for a young bear, if the dm is ok with that and you want to end up with a dire bear.

I have never heard of Natural Bond working that way and due to 'effective druid level' being called out feat I don't think it works. Though I don't rule it out working and it would make choosing a nonbase companion much better.

Another feat to look at is Frozen Wild Shape which would give you urskan form from frostburn which although less powerful than a brown bear is a weapons user capable of speach.

[eggynack]

I have never heard of Natural Bond working that way and due to 'effective druid level' being called out feat I don't think it works. Though I don't rule it out working and it would make choosing a nonbase companion much better.

Well, the essential question there is whether your, "Effective druid level for the purpose of determining the bonus Hit Dice, extra tricks, special abilities, and other bonuses that your animal companion receives," is the thing reduced by picking an alternative companion. The PHB says, "Applying the indicated adjustment to the druid’s level (in parentheses) for purposes of determining the companion’s characteristics and special abilities." There is no apparent meaningful distinction between these two game objects. They are both sufficiently general that they apply to any benefit the animal companion could possibly receive from your druid level. Thus, I am of the opinion that they stack.

[Nifft]

They are both sufficiently general that they apply to any benefit the animal companion could possibly receive from your druid level. Thus, I am of the opinion that they stack.

Me too, but my opinion is mostly that spending a feat to improve your Animal Companion is mechanically negligible.

The PC is already a Druid so it's not like there's a risk of overall mechanical incompetence, but as feats go it's pretty inferior.

[liquidformat]

I am willing to get on-board with that, just never heard of anyone using it in that way. Learn something new every day.

[ImperialPM]

Me too, but my opinion is mostly that spending a feat to improve your Animal Companion is mechanically negligible.

The PC is already a Druid so it's not like there's a risk of overall mechanical incompetence, but as feats go it's pretty inferior.
Yeah, it may be. But I don't wanna have the most powerful character, I just wanna become a bear and have a bear. I just don't want them to be crap, so I'm willing to spend feats for my bear.


I am willing to get on-board with that, just never heard of anyone using it in that way. Learn something new every day.
I thought that was the "normal way" of using it xD

[liquidformat]

you could also awaken a bear and take it as a cohort, or as stated above have an urskan cohort. You might be able to get a few bear followers too, and only use summoning spells to summon extra bears. Then you as a bear with your horde of bears can bare down on people and eat them, or steal their picnic basket, or whatever bears do...

[eggynack]

Me too, but my opinion is mostly that spending a feat to improve your Animal Companion is mechanically negligible.

The PC is already a Druid so it's not like there's a risk of overall mechanical incompetence, but as feats go it's pretty inferior.
It definitely gets worse as you level, but there's a set of levels there where it's pretty strong. A fleshraker with 6 HD and some other bonuses besides is a meaningful fighter dude at level four. Less interesting when you get up towards level ten, but it's a good feat between those points. There are absolutely better feats out there, but natural bond is a solid option, and it's relevant that you can pick it up early on when druid feats are rendered weaker by the lack of wild shape.

Anyways, to the OP, this could be the place for a half-orc build, which is one of my favorites. The core of it is that you go desert half-orc, with or without dragonborn depending on whether you can access it, and then use half-orc substitution levels from races of destiny. I like this plan here for a number of reasons. First, half-orc just feels right with bear theming, all beefy and junk. Second, you boost your animal companion's HP, as well as your own, which helps with your melee plan. Third, the bully animals ability, like half-orc itself, fits the bear aesthetic, and specifically synergizes with high strength forms. And finally, while you stated that you don't want to focus on summoning much, it does improve any bear summoning ya wanna do (as well as non-bear summoning, if you want).

I like adding exalted stuff from BoED onto half-orc builds, because the parts have always felt like they meld together well to me, and in this situation that seems even more true. Exalted wild shape, in addition to its blink dog shenanigans, also applies the celestial template to your animal forms, simultaneously granting access to their Ex special qualities. Bears are admittedly not the best when it comes to Ex special qualities, but scent is nice to have. Exalted companion can let you buff up your bear friend by giving it the celestial template and thus letting it take vow of poverty. It's sometimes considered a bit wonky/cheesy, but I don't think it's too powerful, and it represents a different way to improve your companion. Finally, lion of talisid has already been noted as a reasonable melee prestige class, one which notably grants exalted companion as a bonus feat (albeit at the cost of a feat tax). Of course, the fact that lion is in the name is not ideal, but you could always reflavor it a bit. It's not exactly hyper-thematic, as PrC's go. If you really wanna go deep, taking VoP yourself is a decent maneuver as well. It's a downgrade, to be sure, but it kinda makes sense with the whole bear thing, and the feat is at its best on a druid.

[Reprimand]

BEARS! I LOVE BEARS! My second D&D character ever was a Dwarf Druid Wild Shaped into a Bear riding a bear (animal companion) who was riding a bear (wild cohort) summoning bears and unicorns (I outsourced my healing to them because the DM pointed out my healing spells get staggered as a druid and unicorns are basically low level clerics).

To summarize I'm a bear, riding a bear who is also riding a bear, while summoning bears and healer horses with horns (which I refluffed into bear clerics)

[ShurikVch]

How about the Evil alignment?

It will allow you to pick the Feral Animal Companion feat (Champions of Ruin): Animal Companion will get +2 Str/Con, and it's bite attack would infect with the Red Ache (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#redAche)

Also, if your PC is Evil anyway, you may also take the Tainted Druid (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030428a)

[Ramza00]

So with your goals (Bear with Bear Allies) I recommend adding Bear Summoning.

Ring of the Beast is an 8,000 GP item that allows you to treat your Summon Nature Allys 1 level higher. It though does not ally you to cast a Summon Nature Ally higher than you normally can cast.

Thus Ring of the Beast is great to use with metamagic such as Rapid Spell and Imbued Summoning

Rapid Spell (Complete Divine) is a +1 Metamagic Feat that makes full round action spells take 1 standard action to cast. Aka if you summon bears they appear instantly instead of you waiting for later.

Thus a Druid with this will have to prep Rapid Spell Summon Nature Ally 1 level below normal, but Ring of the Beast will boost that SNA to its normal level.

Once you reach 9 HD you can take Rapid Metamagic and now you can prep anything in those spell slots but now you can swap those spells for standard action SNA.

(Of course you need to make your 6th level feat Nature Spell if you are not doing Totem Druid with Bear as your Totem.)

Now Ring of the Beast is 8,000 GP and thus you can't afford it at level 6 but see if your DM can houserule it to be a 3 a day item (thus 4,800 GP cost) which you can later upgrade to the full effect at unlimited times a day at 8,000 GP when you go up a level or two.

----

And as others have mentioned you can always reflavor your summon monsters a little such as making Unicorns into Bear Clerics (re-flavor horn and 2 hooves a bite and claws), and the various Cats into Charging Bears with Pounce. Give yourself versatility with your summoner even if they all are bears you are summoning.

[eggynack]

How about the Evil alignment?

It will allow you to pick the Feral Animal Companion feat (Champions of Ruin): Animal Companion will get +2 Str/Con, and it's bite attack would infect with the Red Ache (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#redAche)

Also, if your PC is Evil anyway, you may also take the Tainted Druid (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030428a)
Seems like pretty limited utility compared to the downsides. Feral animal companion is pretty meh, especially as compared to something like natural bond. Tainted druid, as far as I can tell, is mostly downside as compared to just not having it. As in, I dunno that you'd want it if it were free. You get to toss the fiendish template on your stuff, but that's a pretty marginal template, and your animal targeted spells mostly can't target things outside your little druid friend pile. And, as downside to all of this, you lose access to all sanctified spells, as well as good spells like unicorn summoning. Lotta good stuff you're missing out on. Neutral and good are both significantly better options.

[ShurikVch]

Feral animal companion is pretty meh, especially as compared to something like natural bond.Natural Bond is good only for multiclassing; for straight Druid or PrC with full progression it's literally useless


And, as downside to all of this, you lose access to all sanctified spells... but get access to Corrupt ones


unicorn summoning.Unicorns aren't bears!


Neutral and good are both significantly better options.If by "good" you're mean Exalted, I don't see how it's better: the only Bears there are via Celestial template (which is no less marginal than Fiendish); also, separate feats for Animal Companion and Wild Shape!
Which is "Neutral" option?

[eggynack]

Natural Bond is good only for multiclassing; for straight Druid or PrC with full progression it's literally useless
As has already been noted, not true. Natural bond is also effective with alternative companions.


... but get access to Corrupt ones
Going neutral grants access to both. Evil just doesn't have much utility. Also, the corrupt list is weaker than the sanctified one.



Unicorns aren't bears!

I've gotta think that spells would sometimes be used for something besides bear summoning. There are a few other [good] druid spells, in any case. Not a crazy list, but it's there.


If by "good" you're mean Exalted, I don't see how it's better: the only Bears there are via Celestial template (which is no less marginal than Fiendish); also, separate feats for Animal Companion and Wild Shape!
Good does allow for exalted fun. As I've already said, the bears there are celestial bear form, which grants access to the extraordinary special qualities (and the feat also gives you blink dog and unicorn form as well as the special qualities on other animal forms, if you want to change it up), and celestial bear companion, which allows the companion to pick up VoP. The templates are crap, but you get fancy stuff on the side for picking them up. Getting the template on its own wouldn't be worth it. Which is, y'know, what tainted druid does. Being good also enables you to self-target luminous armor, which is quite powerful.



Which is "Neutral" option?
Just... being neutral? You go neutral, take neither exalted feats nor vile/evil ones, and get access to the full druid spell list, including sanctified and corrupt spells.

[liquidformat]

also good druid can still cast spider hand which IMO is the best of the evil spells in BoVD.

VoP abuse is questionable on an animal companion, I have only had dms let my companion take it when my character also took it. But with that said you could totally go VoP and also pickup wild cohort and leadership and all be tree hugging murder hobos! Also if you can get your dm to let you abuse leadership and use cr instead of ecl for your followers you could have a nice band of bearsand bear like creatures!

[ShurikVch]

As has already been noted, not true. Natural bond is also effective with alternative companions.As a house rule? Sure.
But as a RAW? I doubt it.

Of course, you're, being the creator of Being Everything (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?439991-Being-Everything-Eggynack-s-Comprehensive-Druid-Handbook), is biased in your chosen interpretation, but not everybody would agree with it:
I've always read it as Natural Bond applying first, and then the improved companion penalty.

Why?

Because the last step in the equation is picking your companion.

Of course, I can't find any rules to support my "order of operations" theory [EDIT: other than the fact that wolverines, for instance, require a Druid level of 4 before you can take one. In other words, you need an effective druid level of 4 before it even becomes an option, and Natural Bond might allow you to take one before you were a level 4 Druid].http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i294/trytoguess/Leeky.png

Going neutral grants access to both. Evil just doesn't have much utility. Also, the corrupt list is weaker than the sanctified one.You don't know the power of the dark side!
Corrupt spells are awesome in their own right (and may even overshadow their Sanctified counterparts)
Just a little reminder: some of the best Corrupt spells are located in the Dragon #300; but, if Totem Druid is on board, it's mean - magazine content is available!
But you're right in the sense of "Druid's spell list isn't that impressive (especially - at higher levels), so any extra option is matter"

There are a few other [good] druid spells, in any case. Not a crazy list, but it's there.Well, Radiance may be useful in case of Undead-heavy adventure, and Unicorn spell line is OK, but it's, kinda, it: all other [good] spells for Druid are either underwhelming (for their levels), or dangerous for your own party (Leonal's Roar)

Good does allow for exalted fun.I wouldn't call [exalted] "fun" - their Code of Conduct is literally worse than Paladin's (which may be already too strict)

As I've already said, the bears there are celestial bear form, which grants access to the extraordinary special qualitiesLow-Light Vision and Scent?
Nothing to write home about

(and the feat also gives you blink dog and unicorn form as well as the special qualities on other animal forms, if you want to change it up)Note: depending on how you're reading the Totem Shape, your PC may be either "locked" on various Bears - "can only take the form of her totem animal" -, or even don't qualify for Exalted Wild Shape at all (because Totem Shape isn't Wild Shape)

and celestial bear companion, which allows the companion to pick up VoP.And VoP is worse than common magic items... :smallwink:

Just... being neutral? You go neutral, take neither exalted feats nor vile/evil ones, and get access to the full druid spell list, including sanctified and corrupt spells.Ah, I see...
Indeed, it's completely reasonable way
It's just...
There was so much advices to take certain [exalted] feats, and to don't take certain other Evil feats...
So, when you're said "Neutral and good are both significantly better options", I'm seriously expected you're will show me some really obscure Neutral counterpart to aforementioned Exalted/Tainted feats - sorta like there are Mindrape, Sanctify the Wicked, and Programmed Amnesia



also good druid can still cast spider hand which IMO is the best of the evil spells in BoVD.IMHO, the best - for Druid - [evil] spell in BoVD is the Claws of the Savage: +2 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls, and the claws' damage increases as if the creature were two size categories larger; Duration: 10 minutes/level (which means - over a hour from the moment you can actually cast it), and - being a 4th-level spell - may be crafted in a Wand

Also, Spider Hand isn't, actually, an [evil] spell.
Maybe, you're confused it with the Create Crawling Claw?
(Which is, while, actually, [evil], is neither a Druid spell, nor in BoVD)
:elan: "Spider Hand! Spider Hand! Does whatever spider can't..." ♪ ♫

[eggynack]

As a house rule? Sure.
But as a RAW? I doubt it.

Of course, you're, being the creator of Being Everything (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?439991-Being-Everything-Eggynack-s-Comprehensive-Druid-Handbook), is biased in your chosen interpretation, but not everybody would agree with it:
I had a lengthy post in this thread where I explained my reasoning. As far as I can tell, this is RAW. The order doesn't especially matter for this. Natural bond applies whenever your effective druid level is below the max. It's not like you lose the feat when you use it. It's just always there. As a side note, it seems really odd to use extensive druid knowledge as a point against my interpretation.


Corrupt spells are awesome in their own right (and may even overshadow their Sanctified counterparts)
They're sometimes solid. Sanctified spells constitute a serious increase in utility though. A lot of the things on that list are the best or only way a druid can do those things.

Just a little reminder: some of the best Corrupt spells are located in the Dragon #300; but, if Totem Druid is on board, it's mean - magazine content is available!
Almost none of the best corrupt spells are in dragon 300. Putrefaction is excellent, but way too high level to represent a meaningful boost to corrupt spells. Curse of pain eternal is mostly just a super marginal but free self buff. The other few spells are pretty meh.


But you're right in the sense of "Druid's spell list isn't that impressive (especially - at higher levels), so any extra option is matter"
The druid list is incredibly impressive. It's just even moreso when you can also summon movanic devas, call up basically permanent unicorns, and identify whether a target is telling the truth.



Well, Radiance may be useful in case of Undead-heavy adventure, and Unicorn spell line is OK, but it's, kinda, it: all other [good] spells for Druid are either underwhelming (for their levels), or dangerous for your own party (Leonal's Roar)
Leonal's roar is only dangerous if the party is non-good. Holy word is a solid effect. Blinding and unearthly beauty are decent. Also, I may or may not like affliction. It's so weird. I am, as of yet, undecided.


Low-Light Vision and Scent?
Nothing to write home about
It's not the best thing out there, but it's significantly better than the template on its own. Consider that in combination with all the other utility the feat offers and it's a pretty good deal. Blink dog form is one of the best tactical teleportation options in the game.


Note: depending on how you're reading the Totem Shape, your PC may be either "locked" on various Bears - "can only take the form of her totem animal" -, or even don't qualify for Exalted Wild Shape at all (because Totem Shape isn't Wild Shape)
They could always not use totem shape. Bears are great and all, but other options are nice.

In any case, you've yet to say what this feat of yours actually does. As far as I can tell, it does the closest thing possible to nothing. I've been talking about it as though it literally only costed your alignment, and even in that context it's not worth it. In reality it costs that plus a feat, and it's really not a good deal.

[Nifft]

I had a lengthy post in this thread where I explained my reasoning. As far as I can tell, this is RAW. The order doesn't especially matter for this. Natural bond applies whenever your effective druid level is below the max.

I think by RAW it doesn't work.

Your effective Druid level is not reduced when you select an alternative animal companion. Rather, you do a calculation based on your effective Druid level as an index into a table.

If the text said that taking an alternative animal companion meant that your Druid level was reduced by -X, then the feat would apply. But it doesn't say that. Your effective Druid level is never reduced. Your animal companion gets reduced benefits, but you are not penalized.


Per balance and fun, I don't think it's very strong, so I don't care enough to stick with hardline RAW -- thus I do tend to allow it. But I do this not because the rules say so, but because it seems fairly benign.

[eggynack]

I think by RAW it doesn't work.

Your effective Druid level is not reduced when you select an alternative animal companion. Rather, you do a calculation based on your effective Druid level as an index into a table.

If the text said that taking an alternative animal companion meant that your Druid level was reduced by -X, then the feat would apply. But it doesn't say that. Your effective Druid level is never reduced. Your animal companion gets reduced benefits, but you are not penalized.

Your effective druid level is reduced. The game says you apply the adjustment to the level object itself for this purpose. To quote directly: "Applying the indicated adjustment to the druid’s level..."

[ShurikVch]

I had a lengthy post in this thread where I explained my reasoning.Which "this thread"?
May I see it?
As a side note, it seems really odd to use extensive druid knowledge as a point against my interpretation.Google the "personal bias" and "pet theory" :smallwink:


Almost none of the best corrupt spells are in dragon 300. Putrefaction is excellent, but way too high level to represent a meaningful boost to corrupt spells. Curse of pain eternal is mostly just a super marginal but free self buff. The other few spells are pretty meh.Well...
Writhing Ruin is one of the very few spells in the game which effect may spread after the initial cast, and minute of duration means 10 rounds
Vileblade is one of the best possible weapons for a non-Good Cha-focused gish
Searing Seed is, potentially, able to create a Half-Fiendish copy of any living creature
Chain of Sorrow (Heroes of Horror) - one more "spreading" spell, and original targe may go unconscious no-save (2d10 Cha is a lot for a non-Sorcerer)


The druid list is incredibly impressive.Query: "incredibly impressive" in comparison to what?
Cleric gets Gate and Miracle
Wizard... is Wizard is Wizard
In turn, Druid gets just Shapechange
Even OA Shaman may do better - because of access to Astral Projection and Gate
(Heck, well-made Divine Crusader may be stronger caster than Druid - despite having spell list which is dramatically shorter)
Admit it: Druid's spellcasting - in comparison - is scraping the bottom of the barrel (for a full-caster)

It's just even moreso when you can also summon movanic devasArmageddon?
At 17th level?
At the cost of a level?!
Meh!


Leonal's roar is only dangerous if the party is non-good.Duh! Exactly!!!

Blinding and unearthly beauty are decent.Note: those spells are affecting Humanoids only; if at 15th level you're afraid of some Humanoids - then it, probably, isn't because they're strong melee warriors


Blink dog form is one of the best tactical teleportation options in the game.IMHO, it's far from the best: for using it, you should take a form of the Dog; thus, you're expected either set on fire your standard action for a Wild Shape (but then - what's you will do after the teleport?), or to be in that form from the start (but then - you're a Medium-sized Dog with Str 10)
May be useful for a spellslinger; but for a melee-oriented CoDzilla...


They could always not use totem shape. Bears are great and all, but other options are nice.But Totem Druid doesn't get the "standard" Wild Shape; in that case - we should also not use totem druid


In any case, you've yet to say what this feat of yours actually does.Which one?

[daremetoidareyo]

I really like what has been hashed out so far, but is there any way to get more bear on this druid? I just don't think we have enough bear.

[Ramza00]

I really like what has been hashed out so far, but is there any way to get more bear on this druid? I just don't think we have enough bear.

Why is what you have right now, un-bear-able? :smallbiggrin:

[eggynack]

Which "this thread"? May I see it?
This this thread. Here ya go (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23268171&postcount=16).




Writhing Ruin is one of the very few spells in the game which effect may spread after the initial cast, and minute of duration means 10 rounds
It's a 9th that isn't a top 9th. It's mostly irrelevant.


Vileblade is one of the best possible weapons for a non-Good Cha-focused gish
It's a 6th level spell that lasts rounds/level, deals you wisdom damage, and gives you a reasonably strong weapon. It's just not particularly worth casting.


Searing Seed is, potentially, able to create a Half-Fiendish copy of any living creature
Not really sure what that's supposed to do for you, realistically.


Chain of Sorrow (Heroes of Horror) - one more "spreading" spell, and original targe may go unconscious no-save (2d10 Cha is a lot for a non-Sorcerer)
Not sure why a spell from a different spell is applicable to this point. Seems decent, in any case.


Query: "incredibly impressive" in comparison to what?
Cleric gets Gate and Miracle
Wizard... is Wizard is Wizard
In turn, Druid gets just Shapechange
Even OA Shaman may do better - because of access to Astral Projection and Gate
(Heck, well-made Divine Crusader may be stronger caster than Druid - despite having spell list which is dramatically shorter)
Admit it: Druid's spellcasting - in comparison - is scraping the bottom of the barrel (for a full-caster)
Incredibly impressive in comparison to those top tier classes. 9th's are near irrelevant to establish power level, and shapechange more than sufficient to make druids top tier at those levels. But they also basically get shapechange at level 15, with fey ring, and there's all kindsa enhance wild shape shenanigans, and, y'know, I wrote a whole handbook about this, so I don't feel the need to weirdly just list spells for awhile. The wizard list is obviously better, but the cleric list is probably around the same league.


Armageddon?
At 17th level?
At the cost of a level?!
Meh!
Bad sanctified spells do not stop good sanctified spells from being good. Obviously.


Duh! Exactly!!!
But they aren't, necessarily. And in those contexts it's rather effective.


Note: those spells are affecting Humanoids only; if at 15th level you're afraid of some Humanoids - then it, probably, isn't because they're strong melee warriors
Blindness isn't the worst effect against non-humanoids.


IMHO, it's far from the best: for using it, you should take a form of the Dog; thus, you're expected either set on fire your standard action for a Wild Shape (but then - what's you will do after the teleport?), or to be in that form from the start (but then - you're a Medium-sized Dog with Str 10)
May be useful for a spellslinger; but for a melee-oriented CoDzilla...
Mantle of the beast is a thing.


Which one?

Tainted druid. It's very bad. The other one is just kinda meh.

[Nifft]

Your effective druid level is reduced. The game says you apply the adjustment to the level object itself for this purpose. To quote directly: "Applying the indicated adjustment to the druid’s level..."

That interpretation of the table header seems to contradict the textual description:



A druid of 4th level or higher may select from alternative lists of animals. Should she select an animal companion from one of these alternative lists, the creature gains abilities as if the character’s druid level were lower than it actually is. Subtract the value indicated in the appropriate list header from the character’s druid level and compare the result with the druid level entry on the table to determine the animal companion’s powers. (If this adjustment would reduce the druid’s effective level to 0 or lower, she can’t have that animal as a companion.)


The character's Druid level is never lowered. Rather, the creature gains abilities at an offset from the level.

You subtract the adjustment from the Druid's level to create an index into a table. You are never told to reduce the Druid's level itself.

At least, that's what it looks like to me.

[eggynack]

That interpretation of the table header seems to contradict the textual description:



The character's Druid level is never lowered. Rather, the creature gains abilities at an offset from the level.

You subtract the adjustment from the Druid's level to create an index into a table. You are never told to reduce the Druid's level itself.

At least, that's what it looks like to me.
I don't really see how that contradicts that at all. You're told to reduce your druid level for a specific purpose, and then your citation tells you what that means. Obviously your animal companion abilities are going to be given a level lower than your actual druid level. That's the entire point. Your actual druid level, after all, is not being lowered. Only your effective druid level for determining all of this stuff.

[Nifft]

I don't really see how that contradicts that at all. You're told to reduce your druid level for a specific purpose, and then your citation tells you what that means. Obviously your animal companion abilities are going to be given a level lower than your actual druid level. That's the entire point. Your actual druid level, after all, is not being lowered. Only your effective druid level for determining all of this stuff.

You're told to subtract a value from your Druid level and use the result as an index. The way I read it, you're told to calculate your Druid level before applying the adjustment.


But if you don't agree that the order of operations is specified, then there's also the issue of Natural Bond's specific wording:



Benefit

Add three to your effective druid level for the purpose of determining the bonus Hit Dice, extra tricks, special abilities, and other bonuses that your animal companion receives (see page 36 of the Player's Handbook). This bonus can never make your effective druid level exceed your character level.


Since the bonus can never make your effective Druid level exceed your character level, then all computation paths (all possible orders of operation) are limited to not do that.

Your interpretation results in several computation paths which would cause a Druid's effective level to exceed her character level.

[eggynack]

You're told to subtract a value from your Druid level and use the result as an index. The way I read it, you're told to calculate your Druid level before applying the adjustment.
Yeah, you subtract from your druid level and do stuff with the new value. But the first step of that is subtracting from your druid level.



Your interpretation results in several computation paths which would cause a Druid's effective level to exceed her character level.

How? If your effective level is supposed to exceed your character level, then the bonus just doesn't apply to that extent.

[Nifft]

Yeah, you subtract from your druid level and do stuff with the new value. But the first step of that is subtracting from your druid level. To me that looks like the last step, but again, if you want to argue that operations can be performed in an arbitrary order then I'm going to assert that you must never have a possible calculation which would exceed your character level.


How? If your effective level is supposed to exceed your character level, then the bonus just doesn't apply to that extent. 1) If the order of operations is not specified, then all orders of operation must be considered.

2) If two equally viable orders of operation would yield different results, then there's a rules dysfunction.

3) If interpretation X results in a rules dysfunction and interpretation W does not, then W is the correct interpretation.

That's the rest of the argument.


But again, this is very small technical potatoes, since the feat is under-powered even at maximum abuse. The power jump you get by having a DM allow fleshraker at all is much more significant than what you could get by spending a feat in this way, assuming it worked per your interpretation.

[eggynack]

To me that looks like the last step, but again, if you want to argue that operations can be performed in an arbitrary order then I'm going to assert that you must never have a possible calculation which would exceed your character level.
I'm not sure what you mean here. When does your effective druid level exceed your regular druid level in these alternative orders of operations?




But again, this is very small technical potatoes, since the feat is under-powered even at maximum abuse. The power jump you get by having a DM allow fleshraker at all is much more significant than what you could get by spending a feat in this way, assuming it worked per your interpretation.
I mean, it's a bit underpowered relative to the super high tier druid stuff. Y'know, the three main form adding feats, the two crazy summoning feats, and natural spell, but I think it's in solid territory as regards most of the other stuff.

[Nifft]

I'm not sure what you mean here. When does your effective druid level exceed your regular druid level in these alternative orders of operations?
min(Druid level +3, character level) -3
min((Druid level -3) +3, character level)

These don't give the same answer under your interpretation, and the only way to get the same answer is to remove the explicit constraint from the feat.

Inconsistent answers ~> dysfunction ~> less preferred interpretation.



I mean, it's a bit underpowered relative to the super high tier druid stuff. Y'know, the three main form adding feats, the two crazy summoning feats, and natural spell, but I think it's in solid territory as regards most of the other stuff.

There's also the spell adding feats, the spell improving feats, [Reserve] feats, and generally good ideas like Improved Initiative.

Hell, even you want to focus on your companion, you can comfortably ignore this feat in favor of better stuff like Companion Spellbond or Share Soulmeld.

[eggynack]

min(Druid level +3, character level) -3
min((Druid level -3) +3, character level)

These don't give the same answer under your interpretation, and the only way to get the same answer is to remove the explicit constraint from the feat.

Inconsistent answers ~> dysfunction ~> less preferred interpretation.
The issue here is that the natural bond never stops applying. Thus, in the first case, after that calculation occurs, you'd have to again ask whether the effective druid level is less than the character level. If it isn't, then you get whatever of the bonus you have not already gotten. This causes the two results to be completely equal. Say, for the sake of argument, you have a fleshraker as a 4th level druid and natural bond. You apply natural bond, bringing up up to 4th level, and then apply the adjustment, bringing you to first, and then you're supposed to be getting a bonus you're not getting, so you apply the adjustment. A better way of considering this that doesn't involve something close to reapplying bonuses is that you just generally get this bonus if and only if your effective level is lower than your actual level. So, if you check for natural bond first, and then do the companion adjustment, then you also check for natural bond at the end.


There's also the spell adding feats, the spell improving feats, [Reserve] feats, and generally good ideas like Improved Initiative.

Hell, even you want to focus on your companion, you can comfortably ignore this feat in favor of better stuff like Companion Spellbond or Share Soulmeld.
Right, I'm pretty convinced that natural bond is better than a quite good number of spell adding feats, most spell improving feats, maybe all reserve feats, improved initiative, companion spellbond at low levels, and share soulmeld is often not applicable.

[Segev]

I really like what has been hashed out so far, but is there any way to get more bear on this druid? I just don't think we have enough bear.

Warshaper, at least one level, let’s you improve or add natural weapons to forms not your own. Make your bear forms have bigger teeth and claws. And fluff any other form as growing bear heads and bear claws as the addition/improvement. As a side benefit, Warshaper is Compelete Warrior, I think. (If I’m wrong, it is one of the Complete books.)

Spell Thematics would let you stuff loads more “bear” into your spellcasting. Make all of your spells “bear-influenced” in some way: Nautre’s Ally Summons bears with other animals’ stats or bits tacked on (they’re functionally other animals, but look like odd bears or animal/bear hybrids). Summoned unicorns are bears with unicorn horns. Entangle spells look like bear topiaries grappling with the targets. Goodbearies look like gummibears.

I don’t recall where Soell Thematics is printed, nor whether it was arcane-only, but house ruling it to work for a Druid would hardly be broken even if it wasn’t allowed by the RAW.

[OgresAreCute]

Warshaper, at least one level, let’s you improve or add natural weapons to forms not your own. Make your bear forms have bigger teeth and claws. And fluff any other form as growing bear heads and bear claws as the addition/improvement. As a side benefit, Warshaper is Compelete Warrior, I think. (If I’m wrong, it is one of the Complete books.)

Spell Thematics would let you stuff loads more “bear” into your spellcasting. Make all of your spells “bear-influenced” in some way: Nautre’s Ally Summons bears with other animals’ stats or bits tacked on (they’re functionally other animals, but look like odd bears or animal/bear hybrids). Summoned unicorns are bears with unicorn horns. Entangle spells look like bear topiaries grappling with the targets. Goodbearies look like gummibears.

I don’t recall where Soell Thematics is printed, nor whether it was arcane-only, but house ruling it to work for a Druid would hardly be broken even if it wasn’t allowed by the RAW.

The Spell Thematics feat is printed in Magic of Faerun, same place as optimization mainstays like Incantatrix and Spelldancer

EDIT: I'd honestly let anyone use "spell thematics" without paying a feat for it without the +5 DC to spellcraft checks, it's just refluffing and I wouldn't want to feat-gate that.

[Nifft]

The issue here is that the natural bond never stops applying. Thus, in the first case, after that calculation occurs, you'd have to again ask whether the effective druid level is less than the character level. If it isn't, then you get whatever of the bonus you have not already gotten. I don't think it's reasonable to add the same bonus at multiple different stages of a calculation.


So, if you check for natural bond first, and then do the companion adjustment, then you also check for natural bond at the end. Unless you're the DM, you don't get to pick the order of operations. So you need to either use the implied order of operations -- whereby Druid level is calculated before the alternate AC penalty is applied -- or you need to come up with an interpretation that's coherent across all orderings.

(If you are the DM, then presumably you're not the Druid, because DMPCs are a bad thing. But you're totally free to do whatever you want in your own game, same as every DM.)



Right, I'm pretty convinced that natural bond is better than a quite good number of spell adding feats, most spell improving feats, maybe all reserve feats, improved initiative, companion spellbond at low levels, and share soulmeld is often not applicable.
I do hope you're not just saying this to be contrary.

It's pretty funny that you think using this feat is strong and RAW supported, while I think it's weak and not technically RAW legal to use in this way.

In terms of DM permission points, if you could either convince a DM to let your Druid have a fleshraker, or convince your DM that you should be allowed to add Natural Bond to a non-fleshraker level 4 alternate animal companion, which would you pick?

[eggynack]

I don't think it's reasonable to add the same bonus at multiple different stages of a calculation.
Why not? Why would natural bond ever stop asking whether your effective druid level is lower than your character level? The feat doesn't say it only checks once. How could it? What if you took a few levels of fighter? Does natural bond not care, because it already checked whether your druid level is lower than your character level, and it wasn't, so the bonus was wasted in that moment in time? Of course not. Something changed, and natural bond responds to that change. Similarly, in this case, something changed between the first application and the second.


Unless you're the DM, you don't get to pick the order of operations. So you need to either use the implied order of operations -- whereby Druid level is calculated before the alternate AC penalty is applied -- or you need to come up with an interpretation that's coherent across all orderings.
My understanding, from various people saying so, is that the most beneficial ordering is the one that applies. This actually implies a second thing that disagrees with your claim. In particular, that some bonuses in the game are not coherent across all orderings. Otherwise why would that possible rule ever get brought up? So, I'd contend that a given interpretation need not be coherent across all orderings to be correct.

Anyway, I'd argue that the most beneficial ordering is the only reasonable one in this case. The game already checked what your effective druid level was when it let you pick the alternate companion in the first place. You aren't allowed to pick one if it reduces your effective druid level too much, after all. Natural bond, meanwhile, is a bonus that applies once you actually have the animal companion, or at the very least once you've been allowed to pick one. Thus, the events in question are not simultaneous, and the reduced level should happen first.



I do hope you're not just saying this to be contrary.
Of course not. I think that optimizing up a strong natural companion at level four is a pretty strong maneuver. It grants you a full on melee character instead of a kinda sorta one. It's just such a general and potent form of empowering, hitting just about every aspect of the animal companion's nature.


In terms of DM permission points, if you could either convince a DM to let your Druid have a fleshraker, or convince your DM that you should be allowed to add Natural Bond to a non-fleshraker level 4 alternate animal companion, which would you pick?
Not sure. I'd have to do some math. It's the two together that's really interesting though.

[liquidformat]

Unless you're the DM, you don't get to pick the order of operations. So you need to either use the implied order of operations -- whereby Druid level is calculated before the alternate AC penalty is applied -- or you need to come up with an interpretation that's coherent across all orderings.


I agree with this but I also don't think your order of operations is correct. Natural bond should always be applied last since it is a feat that requires you to have an animal companion to take it in the first place. Feats in general should never be applied first unless they specify that they should be for the simple fact that most feats(excluding level 1 only feats) can be taken at any level after you qualify for it. Say at level 4 I get an alternate animal companion but I don't take the feat until level 6 does it make sense that I should apply the feat first, no it doesn't. The fact that when I obtain the feat is variable, if I take it at all, means it makes no sense that the first step in determining my effective druid level to figure out what bonuses my animal companion gets is to apply a feat to my druid level that I may or may not have. Just say that out loud a few times to yourself, and listen to what you are saying. That is a ridiculous way to apply a feat, if it was the correct way to apply said feat it wouldn't be a feat it would be a class feature that is given at a specific level.

[Segev]

Personally, I think the fact that the druid animal companions specify that they use your druid level minus X to determine their bonuses means that Natural Bond doesn't kick in at all. Your druid level is Y. Y is equal to your HD. The Fleshraker determines his bonuses as if you were a druid of level Y-4. This doesn't decrease your druid level. You druid level for purposes of Animal Companion is still Y. It's the Fleshraker that has reduced bonuses because he looks at the table 4 levels below your actual druid level.

That said, if the DM wants to allow the trick as eggynack suggests, more power to him (or, at least, to his druids!). I doubt we're going to see anybody persuaded at this point. Like many questionable tricks, pointing it out and telling those to whom it's recommended to ask their DM about it is helpful. Arguing over whether the RAW make it "right" is less so.

Now, how can we help him get more bears on his build? I've suggested Warshaper and Spell Thematics. Anything else to make it more bearable?

[eggynack]

Personally, I think the fact that the druid animal companions specify that they use your druid level minus X to determine their bonuses means that Natural Bond doesn't kick in at all. Your druid level is Y. Y is equal to your HD. The Fleshraker determines his bonuses as if you were a druid of level Y-4. This doesn't decrease your druid level. You druid level for purposes of Animal Companion is still Y. It's the Fleshraker that has reduced bonuses because he looks at the table 4 levels below your actual druid level.
The game says it's applying this penalty to your druid level for this purpose, not directly to the companion. The alternative just doesn't make much sense. Animals advanced in this specific way don't exist out in the wild, and you don't arbitrarily happen to attract stronger or weaker companions as you level. You call forth an animal, and then your druid level for the purposes of animal companion determines a set of benefits. The animal companion's effective level is never said to be reduced.

Moreover, however you semantically consider these two objects, whether it be on the companion or off it, I think it's pretty clearcut that the animal companion section and natural bond are talking about making adjustments to the same object in the same sense. Taking an alternative companion applies an adjustment for the purposes of a set of abilities. Natural bond does the exact same, and with incredibly similar wording. Sure, the words aren't precisely the same, but I challenge you to identify a specific way in which they differ that would imply this sort of distinction.

[Segev]

The game says it's applying this penalty to your druid level for this purpose, not directly to the companion.

A druid of sufficiently high level can select her animal companion from one of the following lists, applying the indicated adjustment to the druid’s level (in parentheses) for purposes of determining the companion’s characteristics and special abilities. I do see how you can get that reading out of what's written. I just disagree that it can counteract that adjustment, since it requires being a higher level druid than your HD to do so.

In any event, I still doubt either side of this debate will convince anybody. It is more constructive to share the possibility and tell those interested to ask their DMs.

Regardless, this has minimal impact on whether this bear build bearly bears up to its bear necessities.

[eggynack]

I do see how you can get that reading out of what's written. I just disagree that it can counteract that adjustment, since it requires being a higher level druid than your HD to do so.
I'm not really sure what you mean by this, to be honest.



Regardless, this has minimal impact on whether this bear build bearly bears up to its bear necessities.
I guess. Bearishness is a little shallow as themes go though, and the OP hasn't given overmuch input lately as regards how close to the mark various ideas are, or what desires have yet to be met. Spell selection could maybe be a bit more fully utilized, but the ways to theme that up strike me as a bit boring. Bite of the werebear? Claws of the savage? It'd mostly just be decent buff spells. Might be worth figuring out some subtheme that can focus spell selection, but coming up with one that ties in to bears is tricky.

[Segev]

I'm not really sure what you mean by this, to be honest.Sorry, choosing not to elaborate here because it's a derail. If it comes up in a more topical thread, I'll happily engage my nerd-argument tendencies!


I guess. Bearishness is a little shallow as themes go though, and the OP hasn't given overmuch input lately as regards how close to the mark various ideas are, or what desires have yet to be met. Spell selection could maybe be a bit more fully utilized, but the ways to theme that up strike me as a bit boring. Bite of the werebear? Claws of the savage? It'd mostly just be decent buff spells. Might be worth figuring out some subtheme that can focus spell selection, but coming up with one that ties in to bears is tricky.
Spell Thematics is one of my recommendations because it would let us turn it around: how do you take standard Druid spells and make them "bear-themed?"

It would be nice to hear some feedback from the OP, though, yes.

[ShurikVch]

I really like what has been hashed out so far, but is there any way to get more bear on this druid? I just don't think we have enough bear.1-level dip into Windrider - if you're OK with a loss of one level of progression - can give you some Bear mount

Apprentice (Entertainer):
... and the ability to call upon the aid of an admirer or fan by spending a tithe appropriate for the apprentice's level. The admirer is of a character level equal to 1/2 the apprentice's own (minimum 1st) and must be within at least one step of his alignment, but can be of any race or class. The ally serves the apprentice for a limited duration (usually a number of days equal to his Charisma modifier, minimum of 1 day) as if a cohort. Once the apprentice calls upon the aid of an admirer, he may not do so again until he gains at least one level.Let that admirer to be a Bear (or, at least, some Bear-like creature)

Also, Warbeast template gives us market prices; for stronger Bears it would be:
Warbeast Magebred Dire Polar Bear - 3050 gp
WarbeastMagebred Legendary Bear - 3350 gp
Mob of Warbeast Magebred Legendary Bears (12) - 40200 gp



It's a 6th level spell that lasts rounds/level, deals you wisdom damage, and gives you a reasonably strong weapon. It's just not particularly worth casting.It's also replace your "fighting stat" (Str) with your casting stat (Cha) - increasing of SADness is always welcomed
duration - considering it's, as you're helpfully pointed, 6th-level spell, usually would be 11 rounds at the bare minimum - way longer than any single combat
and Wis damage is just after the end


Not really sure what that's supposed to do for you, realistically.That 8th-level spell is able to partially duplicate effects of Mirror of Opposition and Ice Assassin; also, may produce Half-Fiendish copies of supposedly-unique creatures


Incredibly impressive in comparison to those top tier classes.The problem with it is: how much of Druid's spells are truly unique?
Cleric have most of them either directly, or by various domains
And, to add insult to injury, some of them are appearing on Druid's list notably later (Regenerate as a 9th-level spell!)


But they also basically get shapechange at level 15, with fey ringThis one (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040710a)? How?

The wizard list is obviously better, but the cleric list is probably around the same league.Some aspects of magic are practically absent in Druid's list (such as long-range teleportation)


Bad sanctified spells do not stop good sanctified spells from being good. Obviously.Yes; but it was you who mentioned it
I'm, honestly, expected something more than sour disappointment which is Armageddon spell
Also, it's a 9th-level spell; what's you're said just a bit earlier?..


But they aren't, necessarily. And in those contexts it's rather effective.I doesn't say it's useless - Holy Word have it's points - but it's not for every party (especially considering the possibility of it's 1st target being the caster)


Blindness isn't the worst effect against non-humanoids.Firstly, it's unclear if it should even work on a non-Humanoids ("As blinding beauty, but at any time during the duration of the spell, you can evoke an additional effect as a free action...")
And secondly - your party is, likely, consist of Humanoids, and they aren't immune to blindness


Tainted druid. It's very bad. The other one is just kinda meh.OK, let's see: You would never run out of Fiendish Creatures - you're summoning them!
All of your summons are sentient and talking now
Since normal Vermins are have no skills or feats, but Fiendish Vermins got them, and there are no "default" examples, you may optimize them a bit
In conjunction with Mastery of Madness, you can summon Pseudonatural Creatures; thus, True Strike instead rarely-used Smite Good; thus, they may, actually, hit enemies on CR where common Animals are able to hit on natural 20 only
And, finally - in adventures on Lower Planes, this feat is especially usefulIMHO, it's - while have certain downsides - still far from the "very bad"

[eggynack]

It's also replace your "fighting stat" (Str) with your casting stat (Cha) - increasing of SADness is always welcomed
duration - considering it's, as you're helpfully pointed, 6th-level spell, usually would be 11 rounds at the bare minimum - way longer than any single combat.
Whose casting stat is charisma, here? Are we talking about an archivist? And, yeah, it lasts a whole combat. It's just that you're spending a combat round on this decent combat thing.


and Wis damage is just after the end
Right. But wisdom damage isn't an ideal thing, even if it's not in that exact combat. It's also not great to take ability damage from combat spells in general, cause you ideally want to be casting them multiple times.



That 8th-level spell is able to partially duplicate effects of Mirror of Opposition and Ice Assassin; also, may produce Half-Fiendish copies of supposedly-unique creatures
Yeah, it's a copying effect, but it's not like you get all that much utility from the copy. You don't control it. If you can, then why not just control the original?



The problem with it is: how much of Druid's spells are truly unique?
How much of cleric's spells are truly unique?



And, to add insult to injury, some of them are appearing on Druid's list notably later (Regenerate as a 9th-level spell!)
But regenerate is terrible. Who cares?


This one (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040710a)? How?
Siabrie (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20020817a), yo.


Some aspects of magic are practically absent in Druid's list (such as long-range teleportation)
Master earth, stormwalk, and transport via plants are right there.


Yes; but it was you who mentioned it
I'm, honestly, expected something more than sour disappointment which is Armageddon spell
Also, it's a 9th-level spell; what's you're said just a bit earlier?..

When did I say anything about armageddon? Bad spells have literally no impact on the power level of an option. The important thing is the spells that are good. Luminous armor, animate with the spirit, inquisition, stuff like that.



Firstly, it's unclear if it should even work on a non-Humanoids ("As blinding beauty, but at any time during the duration of the spell, you can evoke an additional effect as a free action...")
And secondly - your party is, likely, consist of Humanoids, and they aren't immune to blindness
Your party could just know you're gonna cast this and not look at you when you have it on. The enemy has no such knowledge.

You would never run out of Fiendish Creatures - you're summoning them!
Why does this constitute an upside? Is there some kinda sacrificial altar for specifically fiendish creatures?


All of your summons are sentient and talking now
Summoned animals are generally gonna just attack stuff nearby. Most creatures that can do weird stuff can be spoken to.


Since normal Vermins are have no skills or feats, but Fiendish Vermins got them, and there are no "default" examples, you may optimize them a bit
Are vermin even on the SNA list naturally? The answer is no, and also there's no mechanism to optimize this stuff.



In conjunction with Mastery of Madness, you can summon Pseudonatural Creatures; thus, True Strike instead rarely-used Smite Good; thus, they may, actually, hit enemies on CR where common Animals are able to hit on natural 20 only
I mean, true strike once/day isn't the absolute worst, but I don't think it'd be worth one feat, let alone three.


And, finally - in adventures on Lower Planes, this feat is especially useful
Why? Are fiendish animals and vermin super common on the lower planes? I can't imagine so, to be honest.


IMHO, it's - while have certain downsides - still far from the "very bad"
It is very bad. It doesn't really do much of anything. It lets your stuff talk, but that's pretty much the end of it. It doesn't even clearly work with the animal companion, due to its structure, which would render the companion untargetable.