How to help 5th wheel PC shine?

[foobar1969]

One of my players has a monk. The early levels were great. Sneaking & spying equal to the rogue. Bonus attacking like the ranger. Kicking bad guys out of windows.

Now we're at mid levels. The hunter is a superior striker. The thief is a superior scout. The paladin is a superior tank. And the wizard does all kinds of stuff.

Our most recent game was supposed to have a cool battle, but the others foiled it through trickery & magic. The monk had nothing to do. I encourage my players to think outside the box, and they beat my skill checks fairly, so I wasn't willing to railroad them into the fight.

Suggestions?

[JellyPooga]

Some specifics about this Monks build and style would help us to give you advice. Race, Archetype, Ability Scores, Feats, Background...?

[ciarannihill]

Monks are excellent throughout the leveling experience, largely due to Stunning Strike giving them access to easy crowd control with a low resource cost at low-mid levels. And it scales excellently over time. Same with how their martial arts die scales all of their attacks (3-4 per turn at level 5) into higher damage dice over time. Monks also have excellent mobility alongside their high Dex and Wisdom, and the Evasion feature make them excellent for taking out magic using enemies.

Curious what the archetype, race, etc your Monk is using and if the player is neglecting some of the stand out features of the class? Are enough enemies vulnerable to a Monks' strengths to allow standout moments for the player?

[opaopajr]

You win some, you lose some? If the party comes out good with less expenditure, it's a boon to all. Not every encounter or challenge is going to need everybody -- nor should you feel obliged to "build" your game with that in mind.

People are overlooking the value of a generalist in favor of specialization. (And, heaven forfend, slip into that design dead-end: niche protection.) Redundancy is a form of power projection unto itself. It's not attention-grabbing spotlight until you need it, and that may be where the issue is.

The monk's high mobility rate allows it to tie a spread out party together. And its shared niche with Ranger & Rogue allows extra power in such functions as needed. But just as classes cannot shine all the time in their widget domain, so too does redundancy.

Players gotta learn to be patient as they share their moments in the sun.

[Afrodactyl]

The monk should be a prime candidate for your battlefield controller.

Lots of mobility to get them where they need to be, lots of attacks to thin crowds of mooks, and stunning strike to nerf the big guys.

They don't need to be dishing out huge numbers of damage. But they have loads of mobility, lots of attacks, and lots of other bonus action options. They are great generalists as far as martials go, and you can use that to either plug gaps in the party where needed, or to double down on an aspect and get the job done faster.

Lone big bad smashing its way through the line? Flurry of blows that need and stun with every hit you can, they're bound to fail one. And a failed save is a turn of having the granny kicked out of them by everyone. Use the stun to kick the daylights out of them yourself too, and just keep stunning until it stops twitching.

Swarmed by hordes of weak expendable minions? Punch those nerds into mist with all those attacks you have. Even if you're not killing a goblin with every punch, the next thing that hits them certainly will. Also, when the guy in pajamas is going through weak minions like a lawnmower through grass, those minions may reconsider trying to fight you.

Swarmed by mooks and a caster in the back field is raining fire on you? Ignore those nerds and disengage, then dash as a bonus action around, through, or even over them and use your extra movement to get in the casters face and make them sweat. If they run, you opportunity attack. If they don't, they cast at disadvantage and get a shoeing next turn.

Archers on a wall shooting at you, then retreating behind cover? Run up that wall and show them that real men fight with their fists.

And as far as exploration goes, you get extra jump distance from step of the wind, and you can run on walls, all with minimal effort and resources. I'd like to see the rogue do that.


:EDIT:
It's super hot. And with great heat comes great spelling errors.

[MaxWilson]

One of my players has a monk. The early levels were great. Sneaking & spying equal to the rogue. Bonus attacking like the ranger. Kicking bad guys out of windows.

Now we're at mid levels. The hunter is a superior striker. The thief is a superior scout. The paladin is a superior tank. And the wizard does all kinds of stuff.

Our most recent game was supposed to have a cool battle, but the others foiled it through trickery & magic. The monk had nothing to do. I encourage my players to think outside the box, and they beat my skill checks fairly, so I wasn't willing to railroad them into the fight.

Suggestions?

Split the party.

More specifically, set up occasional scenarios where the PCs gain something from splitting the party. Movies do this all the time so you should have plenty of examples to choose from, but one easy example is "a group of enemies flees (with their treasure) in two different directions and you need to stop both of them to get all the treasure and prevent them from summoning reinforcements". How many PCs do you send in each direction?

It's completely rational for the PCs to want to remain concentrated all of the time instead of inviting defeat in detail by splitting up, but a DM is under no obligation to accommodate that desire. Furthermore, some players enjoy the autonomy of being able to make their own decisions without having to deal with group dynamics, and if you make occasional opportunities available for brief solo scenarios, some players (not just the monk!) may enjoy taking up that challenge. E.g. during the watch rotation at night, roll a d6, and if it's 1-5 then whoever is on watch has an interesting experience and some decisions to make. Maybe an old traveler approaches them to ask for a crust of bread and some water (do you give it to them? do you wake up the other PCs just in case it's a trap? if the old traveler grants you three wishes, do you share them with the rest of the party?) or maybe it's an eerie procession of ghostly figures led by a beautiful elven woman in white (do you stay put or follow them or try to talk to her?) or maybe you just notice an odd piece of metal sticking up out of the earth and have the opportunity to dig up an old sealed box (do you open it? do you wake anyone first?). In my experience, players really enjoy having that kind of spotlight time for individual decision-making, and as long as you manage pacing well (don't keep other players cooling their heels for too long) it's enjoyable for everyone.

Incidentally, chasing down fleeing enemies plays to a monk strength (mobility). He may get to make full attacks in that scenario where someone else like the Paladin or the Hunter might be reduced to making opportunity attacks.

[Nidgit]

As others have said, mobility and battlefield control are the Monk's bread and butter. If you really want them to shine, give the party some vertical encounters where the Monk can run up walls and abuse Slow Fall. Things like canyon ambushes and castle assaults are good general options. Just be sure to leave some enemies right by the party to give the Paladin something to do.

[foobar1969]

Thanks for the replies. Some specifics:

Open Hand Monk, no feats yet (might take one at 12th).

Ranger has Sharpshooter, ignores cover.

Rogue has spider climbing, goes up walls.

The upcoming battle scene has fog to impede ranged attacks. I'll try to nudge the player towards the right targets.

[Derpaligtr]

Thanks for the replies. Some specifics:

Open Hand Monk, no feats yet (might take one at 12th).

Ranger has Sharpshooter, ignores cover.

Rogue has spider climbing, goes up walls.

The upcoming battle scene has fog to impede ranged attacks. I'll try to nudge the player towards the right targets.

The monk has something the others don't.

Speed.

Sharpshooter can't shoot around cover or corners. Set up an encounter where the Monk's speed really helps the party. Between their natural speed and Step of the Wind, the monk can get anywhere faster than anyone. The rogue can dash but doesn't have that +20 that the monk does (with SotW you're looking at +40).

Edit: im assuming you're at mid levels? The bonus changes.

[CTurbo]

What level and race? Does he have decent stats? He didn't fumble the character building stages and give himself 8 Con or 13 Dex did he?

Monks are pretty much solid across the board at everything outside of social encounters. I wonder of he's playing the Monk correctly. Mid level Monks are great. He should be like second best in the party at everything so instead of excelling at one thing, he should be contributing to many. He should be very good at stealth, striking, and even tanking by mid levels.


My mid level Long Death Monk is always stealing the show.

[MaxWilson]

Thanks for the replies. Some specifics:

Open Hand Monk, no feats yet (might take one at 12th).

Ranger has Sharpshooter, ignores cover.

Rogue has spider climbing, goes up walls.

The upcoming battle scene has fog to impede ranged attacks. I'll try to nudge the player towards the right targets.

With a Sharpshooter in the party, the monk will shine most brightly in scenarios with lots of buildings, walls, etc. You can't shoot through total cover but the monk can move around it or over it and hit what's on the other side.

[Legendairy]

Also the monk might be able to grapple or push targets. Guys using cover against the ranger? Monk pushes them into the open. As everyone else has said, stunning strike can decimate bags of hp and casters alike.

[Keravath]

Open hand monk can also knock opponents prone, remove their reactions or knock them back when using their flurry of blows. The sharpshooter won't do as well trying to hit prone opponents with disadvantage but it will help all the other melees in the party.

Stun can also be extremely effective and all the ki is a short rest resource. This means that how effective the monk can be will depend on how often you let the party take a short rest. (This can also be true for battlemaster fighters and warlocks - any class for whom a lot of their strength resets on short rests).

Stat optimization plays a big role with monks too. They need a high dex for hitting and they need a high wisdom for both AC and the DC for the stun and other effects.

Finally as several have mentioned, Monk mobility is one of their strengths. This can be increased significantly by the mobile feat.

[Spore]

Grapple the caster! Its what my monks always do. Close the distance, power through the initial spell saves and then pummel it to death. Monks are imho the superior anticaster units. Mageslayer or sentinel help that style.

[Derpaligtr]

Grapple the caster! Its what my monks always do. Close the distance, power through the initial spell saves and then pummel it to death. Monks are imho the superior anticaster units. Mageslayer or sentinel help that style.

Grappling, Sentinel, and Mage Slayer is no match for Misty Step, sadly.

[ciarannihill]

Grappling, Sentinel, and Mage Slayer is no match for Misty Step, sadly.

Misty Step is a limited resource ability that moves you 30 feet, assuming you run your movement which is another 30 feet and Dash another 30 feet for a total of 90 feet retreating (assuming you've decided not to fight back) a Monk at this level range has an additional +15 feet of movement, average base movement is 30 ft so 45 feet. Step of the Wind allows you to Dash as a bonus action moving 90 feet, catching up to the caster with your Action remaining. Just saying.

[Derpaligtr]

Misty Step is a limited resource ability that moves you 30 feet, assuming you run your movement which is another 30 feet and Dash another 30 feet for a total of 90 feet retreating (assuming you've decided not to fight back) a Monk at this level range has an additional +15 feet of movement, average base movement is 30 ft so 45 feet. Step of the Wind allows you to Dash as a bonus action moving 90 feet, catching up to the caster with your Action remaining. Just saying.

I'm quite aware that misty step is a limited resource.

However, the Monk isn't exactly the most meaty of classes. Going up to grapple is wasting an action. Just pummel the Wizard or else they're going to keep blasting the monk and the monk will run out of HP before the wizard runs out of spells. Even if the monk grapples the caster, doesn't stop the caster from using spells on the monk.

The monk will want to flurry + stunning strike that caster. Casters usually have a decent Con but not always proficiency in those saves. Don't try to get fancy, stun that sucker and beat the caster to a pulp. One bad roll and you wasted your action on a grapple that you aren't very good at to begin with (dex focused).

Edit: A single attack from the monk is doing 1d8 + 5 at best? Once chance to stun. Flurry of Blows is more damage and more chances to stun. Don't play with your food.

[ciarannihill]

I'm quite aware that misty step is a limited resource.

However, the Monk isn't exactly the most meaty of classes. Going up to grapple is wasting an action. Just pummel the Wizard or else they're going to keep blasting the monk and the monk will run out of HP before the wizard runs out of spells. Even if the monk grapples the caster, doesn't stop the caster from using spells on the monk.

The monk will want to flurry + stunning strike that caster. Casters usually have a decent Con but not always proficiency in those saves. Don't try to get fancy, stun that sucker and beat the caster to a pulp. One bad roll and you wasted your action on a grapple that you aren't very good at to begin with (dex focused).

Edit: A single attack from the monk is doing 1d8 + 5 at best? Once chance to stun. Flurry of Blows is more damage and more chances to stun. Don't play with your food.

I do agree that grappling isn't the most practical way to mage kill here, actually killing the mage is. And Monks are excellent at that, their mobility allows them to more easily access the back line casters, their high Dex and Wis give them great saves against spells and Stunning Strike is a great CC that targets a relatively low attribute of theirs allowing you to just pummel them to death with raw fisticuffs.

[GlenSmash!]

Grappling on a monk is usually inferior to just Stunning.

Monks can stun like crazy.

[rbstr]

Mobility is an area where the monk will shine. If you threaten the back line and get in the ranger/wizards's face to disadvantage him he's got the stuff to get back there and help them out.

This party is one that might not take short rests much, is he getting a change to burn a decent amount of Ki and getting the rest to top it up, or is he having to conserve his pool over the whole day?

[N810]

Give him some spider climb boots or some other mobility item. :/

[Derpaligtr]

I do agree that grappling isn't the most practical way to mage kill here, actually killing the mage is. And Monks are excellent at that, their mobility allows them to more easily access the back line casters, their high Dex and Wis give them great saves against spells and Stunning Strike is a great CC that targets a relatively low attribute of theirs allowing you to just pummel them to death with raw fisticuffs.

Which is what I've been saying...?

[ProseBeforeHos]

You win some, you lose some? If the party comes out good with less expenditure, it's a boon to all. Not every encounter or challenge is going to need everybody -- nor should you feel obliged to "build" your game with that in mind.

I second this, you're too had on yourself OP.

[CTurbo]

Give him some kind of nice magical item. Bracers of Defense or +2 staff/spear or something.

[Derpaligtr]

Give him some kind of nice magical item. Bracers of Defense or +2 staff/spear or something.

Seems a bit tame really.

If you're giving magic items out, I would go with something that was a bit more interesting.

Hand-wraps of Missile Attraction (Cursed) (Rare) (Attunement)
When you wrap your hands with these wraps, you have resistance to damage from range weapon attacks.

Curse: These hand-wraps are cursed. Attuning to it curses you until you are targeted by a remove curse spell or similar magic. Removing the wraps fails to end the curse on you. Whenever a ranged weapon attack is made against a target within 10' of you, the curse causes you to become the target.

You know why I would love this magic item as a Monk? Deflect missiles is a rarely used ability that I would love to see get more love.

[ATHATH]

Seems a bit tame really.

If you're giving magic items out, I would go with something that was a bit more interesting.

Hand-wraps of Missile Attraction (Cursed) (Rare) (Attunement)
When you wrap your hands with these wraps, you have resistance to damage from range weapon attacks.

Curse: These hand-wraps are cursed. Attuning to it curses you until you are targeted by a remove curse spell or similar magic. Removing the wraps fails to end the curse on you. Whenever a ranged weapon attack is made against a target within 10' of you, the curse causes you to become the target.

You know why I would love this magic item as a Monk? Deflect missiles is a rarely used ability that I would love to see get more love.
You do realize that that item both makes it harder for the Paladin to tank (as aggro is being unintentionally drawn towards the Monk) and for the Ranger to shoot (as any shots that the Ranger makes against opponents that are within 10 ft. of the Monk will be redirected to the Monk), right? That's an anti-party synergy item if I ever saw one.

If anything, the party would just give that item to the Paladin to help him tank better (or not use it at all, if it's harming the Ranger's ability to contribute in combat/focus fire on the stuff that the rest of the party is focus firing on too much).

[Derpaligtr]

You do realize that that item both makes it harder for the Paladin to tank (as aggro is being unintentionally drawn towards the Monk) and for the Ranger to shoot (as any shots that the Ranger makes against opponents that are within 10 ft. of the Monk will be redirected to the Monk), right? That's an anti-party synergy item if I ever saw one.

If anything, the party would just give that item to the Paladin to help him tank better (or not use it at all, if it's harming the Ranger's ability to contribute in combat/focus fire on the stuff that the rest of the party is focus firing on too much).

Paladin would need to be within 10' of the monk. I was unaware that the Paladin would be staying. within 10' of the monk at all times lol. Plus this doesn't change melee at all.

Don't shoot within 10' of the monk.

Simple as that.



The item helps the monk protect the party from any surprise ranged attack, after which the monk zips off. While getting close to the enemy, the monk is still protected against any ranged attacks (1/round). The ranger can shoot any target outside of 10' of the monk. Also, guess what the monk can do? Yeah, open hand monks can push a target 10' away. Easily staying outside the range of the curse by moving.

If you use a bit of tactics, this item works wonder for the party and allows the monk to have a distinct role and some fun with it.

[ATHATH]

Paladin would need to be within 10' of the monk. I was unaware that the Paladin would be staying. within 10' of the monk at all times lol. Plus this doesn't change melee at all.

Don't shoot within 10' of the monk.

Simple as that.



The item helps the monk protect the party from any surprise ranged attack, after which the monk zips off. While getting close to the enemy, the monk is still protected against any ranged attacks (1/round). The ranger can shoot any target outside of 10' of the monk. Also, guess what the monk can do? Yeah, open hand monks can push a target 10' away. Easily staying outside the range of the curse by moving.

If you use a bit of tactics, this item works wonder for the party and allows the monk to have a distinct role and some fun with it.
If the idea is to absorb ranged attacks at the beginning of the battle, shouldn't the tank of the party (the Paladin) be wearing them? Everyone's going to want to start near him at the start of battle because of his aura anyway.

What if the Monk whiffs his push attack? Does the Ranger just sit on his hands if the remaining enemies are all within 10 ft. of the Monk? Does he engage in melee, a field in which he is not specialized in, instead?

Also, if the Ranger just "doesn't shoot stuff that's next to the Monk" (that's not an exact quote, of course), that's not focus-firing, is it?

[MaxWilson]

Curse: These hand-wraps are cursed. Attuning to it curses you until you are targeted by a remove curse spell or similar magic. Removing the wraps fails to end the curse on you. Whenever a ranged weapon attack is made against a target within 10' of you, the curse causes you to become the target.

You know why I would love this magic item as a Monk? Deflect missiles is a rarely used ability that I would love to see get more love.

You know why I would love this magic item as a wizard? Because I could have two people in succession attune to it, so that they both become cursed, and then have someone shoot an arrow at a third party near both of them, and see what happens. I'm sure the results would yield publishable new insights into magical theory.

[ATHATH]

You know why I would love this magic item as a wizard? Because I could have two people in succession attune to it, so that they both become cursed, and then have someone shoot an arrow at a third party near both of them, and see what happens. I'm sure the results would yield publishable new insights into magical theory.
Also, this.

And you can't cop out of this by saying that the curse transfers to whoever wears the wraps next- what if they both wear separate pairs of wraps? Does whichever set of wraps is arbitrarily "stronger" prevail?

[MaxWilson]

Also, this.

And you can't cop out of this by saying that the curse transfers to whoever wears the wraps next- what if they both wear separate pairs of wraps? Does whichever set of wraps is arbitrarily "stronger" prevail?

Is there a way to somehow attach the arrow to a dynamo and generate endless amounts of electricity as it vacillates forever between targets?

[Reynaert]

Is there a way to somehow attach the arrow to a dynamo and generate endless amounts of electricity as it vacillates forever between targets?

Probably not. I think that according to quantum dynamics, cats have to be involved in any form of infinite generator. (e.g. Tying buttered bread to the back of a cat).

[Rixitichil]

Given Open Hand has access to good mobility and forced movement, a battlefield with ledges/pits/traps/open fires and other hazards you can hurl enemies into is probably going to play to their strengths.

[JackPhoenix]

You do realize that that item both makes it harder for the Paladin to tank (as aggro is being unintentionally drawn towards the Monk) and for the Ranger to shoot (as any shots that the Ranger makes against opponents that are within 10 ft. of the Monk will be redirected to the Monk), right? That's an anti-party synergy item if I ever saw one.

If anything, the party would just give that item to the Paladin to help him tank better (or not use it at all, if it's harming the Ranger's ability to contribute in combat/focus fire on the stuff that the rest of the party is focus firing on too much).

This isn't WoW, you don't tank by getting hit in the face repeatedly while the healer tries to keep you alive. And there's no aggro. If you've got a choice, it is better to have the shots aimed at monk than at the paladin. Spreading the damage around is in many cases better (Healing Spirit and the former non-combat heal, Prayer of Healing, are more effective if they are used on multiple target who took less damage than on a single target who took all the damage, same with using HD to regain HP on rests... if two people need to use 1 HD to regain their HP, they can last longer than if one person needs to spend 2 HD, and the rest of the party is twiddling their thumbs, because they're "not tanks"), and unlike paladin, the monk can negate the damage completely, especially with resistance (with 1d8+3 hit from a ranged attack, in worst case scenario (max damage crit), the paladin will take 9 damage, whle level 5 monk is effectively immune to the attack if he uses his reaction). Even without resistance, the paladin would take 19 damage, and the monk only 10 (or less, depending on level and ability score) damage at worst.

The ranger will be inconvenienced, but that can be handled through tactics: depending on the initiative, the ranger may attack before the monk closes in with the enemy, and the monk has enough mobility to keep attacking and moving back to draw ranged attacks aimed at squishier targets.

[foobar1969]

Thanks much for the suggestions. The battle this week had a bunch of environmental hazards that the party needed to weave around, and everyone shined in their specialties. The monk was vital in getting to spots that the others couldn't. And I have ideas for future encounters too.

Now to work on non-combat activity. What are criteria for scenarios where the party would benefit from multiple scouts instead of just one?

[Rixitichil]

Taking down sentries is generally easier with two sneaking characters rather than one.
Maybe a trap or other mechanism that needs characters at two separate points to function.

Your other option is consider what skills are needed to make sense of what a scout sees. If the Monk is trained in Religion, maybe they can identify the nature of the room, or that the two statues are likely magically enchanted to defend the Shrine of the Craft God.

[Citan]

Thanks for the replies. Some specifics:

Open Hand Monk, no feats yet (might take one at 12th).

Ranger has Sharpshooter, ignores cover.

Rogue has spider climbing, goes up walls.

The upcoming battle scene has fog to impede ranged attacks. I'll try to nudge the player towards the right targets.
Well, Monk has 30% speed more than Rogue a tleast (and more if Dashing), since he's >lvl9 he can also run across walls and liquids (interestingly no liquid is specified, but acid or lava would probably be problematic still ^^) as long as he gripes himself when stopping movement or land across the wall.
Monk has stopping power with Stunning Strike, and up to 2 attacks to attempt Grappling. First to generate advantage for everyone (who should be grateful in turn), second to pull out of cover smart (but not enough) enemies that thought they would be shielded from Ranger's arrows.
Monk has several tools to play with defense-wise, including deflecting arrows and Evasion, so he could use his speed to quickly pull back and provide cover for Ranger, or try and aggro attacks against him with Dodge while Ranger and Rogue try and prepare an ambush by Stealthly going around...

You should just play enemy party a level upper than before tactics-wise, using full covers, restrain movements, use more ranged attacks against Ranger to force him to look for cover too, use save-or-suck effects on which Monk will resist much better than others, etc...

Without specific example though, it's hard to help, especially on an Open Hand Monk (would have been easier to give suggestion with 4e unless really strange discipline choices ^^). ;)