3.5 Black Sand, Dungeon Creation Mechanics Help.

[Asmotherion]

So, I have my Dungeon (A Dramatic Black Pyramid, Made of Black Marble) that is surounded by Black Sand (As the Spell).

The Pyramid Has 8 entranses, and the Black sand has Shifting Parts of Regular sand that Function as a Labirinth.

So far, I have that the Players will end up in a random d8 entrance of the Pyramid, that the Black Sand is populated by Skeletons, Zombies and Wights (who BTW get 1d4 fast healing wile in it, if I calculated stuff corectly?), and is supposed to work as a Labyrinth of sorts, where the Players will have to make a Reflex Save every 10 minutes in order to Avoid getting into the Black Sand (Think the Final Challenge in the Triwizard Tournement in Harry Potter).

Some more ideas on how to make this actually work out?

[Deophaun]

Yeah, you're going to need more of a shtick than a Reflex save every 10 minutes. That's an annoyance, not a mechanic. I'd make the black sand be controlled by switches that the players have to manipulate to create the path to the pyramid. Standard video-game mechanic, really. Put the switches on timers to require the PCs to hurry to the next while undead get in their way.

who BTW get 1d4 fast healing wile in it, if I calculated stuff corectly?
Technically, no, it actually hurts them. There is no rule saying undead get 1:1 healing from negative energy, or even a rule stating that negative energy cannot harm them. Their type simply says negative energy can heal them, not that it will, and every negative energy effect tells you how much it will heal an undead creature for.

Black sand has no such healing clause. Since it doesn't heal, and undead lack immunity to negative energy, it hurts them.

Of course, absolutely no one at your table will call you on it.

[Asmotherion]

Yeah, you're going to need more of a shtick than a Reflex save every 10 minutes. That's an annoyance, not a mechanic. I'd make the black sand be controlled by switches that the players have to manipulate to create the path to the pyramid. Standard video-game mechanic, really. Put the switches on timers to require the PCs to hurry to the next while undead get in their way.

Technically, no, it actually hurts them. There is no rule saying undead get 1:1 healing from negative energy, or even a rule stating that negative energy cannot harm them. Their type simply says negative energy can heal them, not that it will, and every negative energy effect tells you how much it will heal an undead creature for.

Black sand has no such healing clause. Since it doesn't heal, and undead lack immunity to negative energy, it hurts them.

Of course, absolutely no one at your table will call you on it.

XD The Mechanism+ the Black Sand covering the whole thing was my plan for traping them inside the Pyramid in the first place.

I was looking for a way to make the whole Experiance of entering the Pyramid a bit less Railroading and a bit more option-taking...

Otherwise I might as well make it a regular trap, and be done with it.

-Include a hint of what each entry leads to perhaps and allow them to risk an other save for an other entry?
-Include a 50gp telescope in the shop that may allow them to decide the entry before they enter the Black Sand Zone?

[Falontani]

Black sand has magical darkness, if your the dm upgrade the magical darkness to be the old magical darkness that you can't see through with darkvision. Make them need to go blindly or with a light spell of third level or higher. Orbs of sunlight, counter the darkness, and switches in the pyramid turn some orbs on and some orbs off. In dungeonscape the prestige class dungeon master can activate or deactivate any magic item used in construction of the dungeon, remotely. So have traps to separate the party (If you want to), turn out the lights if you feel like it. And most of all, ignore the person above, negative energy that does not specify how it interacts with undead, heals them for a normal amount. Otherwise tomb tainted soul (the feat from libris mortis) would be more powerful than actual undead healing.

[Deophaun]

And most of all, ignore the person above, negative energy that does not specify how it interacts with undead, heals them for a normal amount.
You have a book and page number for this, I take it.

[Segev]

Modify the black sand such that its magical darkness is pushed away by any light source that enters it (but not by any that's outside of it). It does, however, cut the radius of the light source's shed by half (minimum 1 5 ft. square). Within the light, the sand looks and behaves like normal sand.

Characters entering the black sand need to bring light with them to avoid its harmful effects. Undead enemies not only seek to hurt them, but also seek to quell, knock away, or otherwise disable and deprive the party of lighting effects. Protecting their light sources becomes an important goal.

[Falontani]

You have a book and page number for this, I take it.

Page 10 of libris mortis, "Only undead with Intelligence scores can recover lost hit
points, usually through necromantic healing (see below) or through the application of negative energy. An undead with the fast healing ability does not require an Intelligence score to benefit from that ability."
And then several lines lower, "The application of negative energy, such as an inflict spell, can restore hit points to an undead. Generally, any spell that would harm a living creature by the application of negative energy heals the same number of lost hit points when cast on an undead."

And from the monster manual's glossary, "Cannot heal damage on its own if it has no Intelligence
score, although it can be healed. Negative energy (such as an inflict
spell) can heal undead creatures. The fast healing special quality
works regardless of the creature’s Intelligence score."

[Deophaun]

Page 10 of libris mortis, "Only undead with Intelligence scores can recover lost hit
points, usually through necromantic healing (see below) or through the application of negative energy. An undead with the fast healing ability does not require an Intelligence score to benefit from that ability."
And then several lines lower, "The application of negative energy, such as an inflict spell, can restore hit points to an undead. Generally, any spell that would harm a living creature by the application of negative energy heals the same number of lost hit points when cast on an undead."

And from the monster manual's glossary, "Cannot heal damage on its own if it has no Intelligence
score, although it can be healed. Negative energy (such as an inflict
spell) can heal undead creatures. The fast healing special quality
works regardless of the creature’s Intelligence score."
None of those contradict anything that I said. I even referenced MM's "can" language in my initial post. And while there is a black sand spell, black sand itself is not a spell, nor is the black sand spell cast on an undead.

Would you like to try again?

[Calthropstu]

None of those contradict anything that I said. I even referenced MM's "can" language in my initial post. And while there is a black sand spell, black sand itself is not a spell, nor is the black sand spell cast on an undead.

Would you like to try again?

"Generally, any spell that would harm a living creature by the application of negative energy heals the same number of lost hit points when cast on an undead."

Unless a spell using negative energy overwrites that, it heals them. It's a written general rule that needs specific to overwrite it.

[Deophaun]

"Generally, any spell that would harm a living creature by the application of negative energy heals the same number of lost hit points when cast on an undead."

Unless a spell using negative energy overwrites that, it heals them. It's a written general rule that needs specific to overwrite it.
And black sand is an environmental hazard, not a spell. Furthermore, the black sand spell itself is not cast on undead:

Creatures can make Reflex saves to avoid being caught in the area upon which the spell is first cast.
Again, I said this the first time. Would you like to try again?

[Falontani]

And black sand is an environmental hazard, not a spell. Furthermore, the black sand spell itself is not cast on undead:

Again, I said this the first time. Would you like to try again?


negative energy: A black, crackling energy that originates on the Negative Material Plane. In general, negative energy heals undead creatures and hurts the living.

In the glossary, nothing about spells at all.

[Calthropstu]

And black sand is an environmental hazard, not a spell. Furthermore, the black sand spell itself is not cast on undead:

Again, I said this the first time. Would you like to try again?

Does it use negative energy to cause damage? Yes.
Does it say it also harms undead? No.
General rules apply. It heals undead.

Very simple basic concept, not exactly sure why you're getting this wrong.

[Deophaun]

In the glossary, nothing about spells at all.
Hey! You got it! Much better than responding with citations that don't actually address the point, isn't it?

Does it use negative energy to cause damage? Yes.
Does it say it also harms undead? No.
General rules apply. It heals undead.

Very simple basic concept, not exactly sure why you're getting this wrong.
See above for how to correctly provide evidence. (It's insistence of poor reading like this that has made it take THIS LONG for someone to actually provide me with a rules text)

[Falontani]

Hey! You got it! Much better than responding with citations that don't actually address the point, isn't it?

See above for how to correctly provide evidence. (It's insistence of poor reading like this that has made it take THIS LONG for someone to actually provide me with a rules text)

Even even corrected your still adopting a very... Rude outlook. With that said, I didn't realize you were specifically looking for a nonspell reference rather than any other reference.

[Calthropstu]

Hey! You got it! Much better than responding with citations that don't actually address the point, isn't it?

See above for how to correctly provide evidence. (It's insistence of poor reading like this that has made it take THIS LONG for someone to actually provide me with a rules text)

Wow. You aren't a very nice person are you?

Attitude aside, the quote previously provided said the exact same thing. It's not our fault you couldn't extrapolate or understand the information.
I suggest reading comprehension classes.
Maybe this (https://www.sadlier.com/school/ela-blog/free-printable-reading-comprehension-lesson-plans-for-grades-3-6) will help?

[Deophaun]

Even even corrected your still adopting a very... Rude outlook. With that said, I didn't realize you were specifically looking for a nonspell reference rather than any other reference.
I'm sorry. I've been through this five times previously. I should have given you more credit for being the first one to actually get beyond inferring the rules and finding the actual text.

It wasn't "any other" reference I was looking for. It was for a reference that did not leave holes to drive a black sand desert through. That was the problem with every other quote you provided.

[ben-zayb]

I'm more surprised that someone not relatively new in the 3.5 forums could miss something so well-known. RTFM/RTFH and all.


Black sand has magical darkness, if your the dm upgrade the magical darkness to be the old magical darkness that you can't see through with darkvision. Make them need to go blindly or with a light spell of third level or higher. Orbs of sunlight, counter the darkness, and switches in the pyramid turn some orbs on and some orbs off. In dungeonscape the prestige class dungeon master can activate or deactivate any magic item used in construction of the dungeon, remotely. So have traps to separate the party (If you want to), turn out the lights if you feel like it. And most of all, ignore the person above, negative energy that does not specify how it interacts with undead, heals them for a normal amount. Otherwise tomb tainted soul (the feat from libris mortis) would be more powerful than actual undead healing.
Of course, this works both ways: that is, preventing your undead chumps from seeing through magical darkness just with darkvision. Even with lifesense, which acts like regular light.

[Asmotherion]

Well, as the DM I'll just use the version that suits my campain better anyway. I was just checking if this was RAW defined, but apparently it's one of the DM's call stuff I suppose?

Good call on the Light stuff. On the other hand, they don't yet have access to 3rd level spells (they're level 5 when entering the Pyramid).

They will be entering at Noon, and the non-darkness path will be lighted by daylight. The Undead will avoid entering the path of daylight, but will attack as soon as they enter the Darkness (if they fail a Reflex save). Then, they are entitled a Perception Check to see at the last moment were the light went, and a Will save in order not to Panic and start running in a random direction.

How does that add up?

[Segev]

I'm not sure why there are reflex saves to "avoid entering the darkness." It feels very passive, and since they must cross the area anyway, it's not even an interesting choice whether or not to gamble it.

I recommend something that gives the PCs agency, even if it's limited. This is why I recommended they carry their own light, but the undead actively try to extinguish it. Now, the PCs have to defend their light sources, and can devise tactics for doing so.

[iTreeby]

If there are intelligent undead undead hanging out in the darkness the. There should be a fair amount of moving silently that would need to happen to avoid ambush. Once the sand shifts around, you could end up with a dozen undead staring straight at you. It seems like a pretty tense maze. Is it an option to just rush the exit accepting some damage to bypass everything?

[Asmotherion]

I'm not sure why there are reflex saves to "avoid entering the darkness." It feels very passive, and since they must cross the area anyway, it's not even an interesting choice whether or not to gamble it.

I recommend something that gives the PCs agency, even if it's limited. This is why I recommended they carry their own light, but the undead actively try to extinguish it. Now, the PCs have to defend their light sources, and can devise tactics for doing so.

I do think it's a good call, just trying to turn it into a limited resource accessable to them.

I could include some (1d6 sounds fair) Daylight spell scrolls at the shop, for their regular prise. I've given them a lot of gold after all.

Now, I will try to sell the item to them, but what happens if they don't actually buy? I am looking for a worst case scenario (cause I can see it happening). What if I give the hints that they'll need the Scrolls, and they decide not to take them? This is the quite realistic scenario I want to prepare for.

[Segev]

I do think it's a good call, just trying to turn it into a limited resource accessable to them.

I could include some (1d6 sounds fair) Daylight spell scrolls at the shop, for their regular prise. I've given them a lot of gold after all.

Now, I will try to sell the item to them, but what happens if they don't actually buy? I am looking for a worst case scenario (cause I can see it happening). What if I give the hints that they'll need the Scrolls, and they decide not to take them? This is the quite realistic scenario I want to prepare for.

Do they not know they're going to this darkness-shrouded pyramid? They really should do some research. IF they can't find out, well...there's always returning to town to shop again.

[Asmotherion]

Do they not know they're going to this darkness-shrouded pyramid? They really should do some research. IF they can't find out, well...there's always returning to town to shop again.

They're supposed to find out, but sometimes they get absorbed in RP, and forget crucial details...

On the other hand, the way the whole thing is designed, I'm not sure they will have a chance to return to town and shop again. XD

If they die there, they are supposed to wake up inside the Pyramid and trapped (I know Black Sand turns you into Dust, it's a Narrative thingy).

What I'm conserned is taking agency from them this way, or rather giving off the illusion of doing so. I'd rather get them into the pyramid by their own skills.

[Segev]

Then make sure they get the information via RP means. Maybe make a mini-adventure out of gathering the info, and then running through it OOC with them after one session and before another, giving them a chance to make sure they're prepared IC.