How to overcome SR with SLAs?

[sorcererlover]

Trying to make my called creature's SLAs like enervation work against high SR enemies (we're about to hit epic)

Only method I know is Dark Chaos Shuffle in Supernatural Transformation which is banned.

Assay Resistance and True Casting don't work on anyone other than yourself.

[Troacctid]

True Casting can be placed in a Skull Talisman. 100 gp a pop.

[RoboEmperor]

True Casting can be placed in a Skull Talisman. 100 gp a pop.

Spells =/= SLAs right? So I think True Casting even on a skull talisman or a creature with wizard levels CAN'T use it for their SLA.

[Troacctid]

Spells =/= SLAs right? So I think True Casting even on a skull talisman or a creature with wizard levels CAN'T use it for their SLA.
When an effect says it affects spells, the degree to which it affects spell-like abilities is ultimately subject to DM discretion.

If Supernatural Transformation is banned, you could try Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration, I guess. (Or Epic Penetration, possibly the saddest epic feat.) Practiced Magic is worth as much as +4 if the creature has more HD than CL.

[RoboEmperor]

When an effect says it affects spells, the degree to which it affects spell-like abilities is ultimately subject to DM discretion.

If Supernatural Transformation is banned, you could try Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration, I guess. (Or Epic Penetration, possibly the saddest epic feat.) Practiced Magic is worth as much as +4 if the creature has more HD than CL.

I think it's more reasonable to believe Dark Chaos Shuffle is banned rather than Supernatural Transformation.

There's a spell "Lower Spell Resistance" from draconimicon. Lowers the opponent's spell resistance by a maximum of 15, and the saving throw to resist that is fortitude-15, so yeah, no one is going to resist it.

I didn't know about that either, I'm a add that to my build. Participating in threads is always fruitful~~~

[Troacctid]

I think it's more reasonable to believe Dark Chaos Shuffle is banned rather than Supernatural Transformation.
In that case, use Psionic Reformation.

[RoboEmperor]

In that case, use Psionic Reformation.

Can you cast Psionic Reformation on a creature though? They don't have xp to pay the cost with.

[Thurbane]

So aside from the aforementioned feats (Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Epic Spell Penetration, Practiced magic and Supernatural Transformation), this is what I've been able to find (they are all very specific and/or low in power)


Dragonfoe (only vs. Dragons)
Duergar Mindshaper (+1 for Enchantments only)
Elder Giant Magic (useful for Giants only)
Favored Magic Foe (+1 vs a specific creature type)
Oni's Bane (+3 vs. Outsiders)
Rock Gnome Trickster (+1 for Illusions only)
Sacred Tattoo (tied to a specific area)
Undo Resistance (if the creature has Sneak Attack)

[Troacctid]

General caster level boosts also work (Practiced Magic falls in that category), but they tend to be expensive.

[Goaty14]

Ignoring SR is just an additional +5 to the Truespeak DC :smallamused:

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Aren't there weapon qualities that suppress certain amounts of SR when they hit?

[RoboEmperor]

General caster level boosts also work (Practiced Magic falls in that category), but they tend to be expensive.

Those stuff boost spells and not SLAs right? That spells =/= SLA thing is a real b****.

[Jack_Simth]

Trying to make my called creature's SLAs like enervation work against high SR enemies (we're about to hit epic)

Only method I know is Dark Chaos Shuffle in Supernatural Transformation which is banned.

Assay Resistance and True Casting don't work on anyone other than yourself.
You can't cast them for another person... until you load them into a Ring of Spell Storing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#spellStoringMinor) of any stripe sufficient to hold them.


Spells =/= SLAs right? So I think True Casting even on a skull talisman or a creature with wizard levels CAN'T use it for their SLA.

Sorta. The Spell Like Abilities Definition (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities) says:
Spell-Like Abilities (Sp)

Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A few spell-like abilities are unique; these are explained in the text where they are described.

A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus or have an XP cost. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability’s use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.

A spell-like ability takes the same amount of time to complete as the spell that it mimics (usually 1 standard action) unless otherwise stated. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell:

Using a spell-like ability while threatened provokes attacks of opportunity. It is possible to make a Concentration check to use a spell-like ability defensively and avoid provoking an attack of opportunity. A spell-like ability can be disrupted just as a spell can be. Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and to being dispelled by dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated.

A spell-like ability usually has a limit on how often it can be used. A spell-like ability that can be used at will has no use limit.

For creatures with spell-like abilities, a designated caster level defines how difficult it is to dispel their spell-like effects and to define any level-dependent variables (such as range and duration) the abilities might have. The creature’s caster level never affects which spell-like abilities the creature has; sometimes the given caster level is lower than the level a spellcasting character would need to cast the spell of the same name. If no caster level is specified, the caster level is equal to the creature’s Hit Dice. The saving throw (if any) against a spell-like ability is:

10 + the level of the spell the ability resembles or duplicates + the creature’s Cha modifier.

Some spell-like abilities duplicate spells that work differently when cast by characters of different classes. A monster’s spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order.

Some creatures are actually sorcerers of a sort. They cast arcane spells as sorcerers do, using components when required. In fact, an individual creature could have some spell-like abilities and also cast other spells as a sorcerer. (emphasis added)

So in theory, anything that interacts with the SR penetration of spells also interacts in the same way with spell-like abilities, as it's not on the list of exceptions.

[Thurbane]

Those stuff boost spells and not SLAs right? That spells =/= SLA thing is a real b****.

It would depend on the wording of the ability.

The Orange Prism Ioun Stone, for instance, simply says +1 caster level, so it should work with SLAs.

[darkdragoon]

Bag of high level Spellthieves?

[RoboEmperor]

You can't cast them for another person... until you load them into a Ring of Spell Storing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#spellStoringMinor) of any stripe sufficient to hold them.



Sorta. The Spell Like Abilities Definition (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities) says:(emphasis added)

So in theory, anything that interacts with the SR penetration of spells also interacts in the same way with spell-like abilities, as it's not on the list of exceptions.

How I remember it is that you can't use metamagic rods with SLAs, so if metamagic rods don't work, why would any other spell modifier do?

I'd love for you to prove me wrong since I really want to use metamagic rods with SLAs.

edit:Seriously, prove me wrong please. I really, really, reaaaaaly want to use metamagic rods with enslaved outsiders!

edit2: I believe the argument was that SLAs have their own metamagic feats which aren't used in the creation of the rod or something like that.

[Thurbane]

Complete Arcane, pages 71-72, has a section on SLAs and metamagic feats. It advises that only Sudden Metamagic feats work with SLAs:


Other Metamagic Feats: Except as noted above, metamagic feats can’t generally be used to modify spell-like abilities or invocations.

[Jack_Simth]

How I remember it is that you can't use metamagic rods with SLAs, so if metamagic rods don't work, why would any other spell modifier do?

I'd love for you to prove me wrong since I really want to use metamagic rods with SLAs.

edit:Seriously, prove me wrong please. I really, really, reaaaaaly want to use metamagic rods with enslaved outsiders!

edit2: I believe the argument was that SLAs have their own metamagic feats which aren't used in the creation of the rod or something like that.

I already quoted the entire section, and underlined the key part. What constitutes proof?

[RoboEmperor]

Complete Arcane, pages 71-72, has a section on SLAs and metamagic feats. It advises that only Sudden Metamagic feats work with SLAs:


Sudden Metamagic Feats: These metamagic feats don’t require modified spell slots, and so they work as well with spell-like abilities or invocations as they do with spells (though because spell-like abilities don’t have verbal or somatic components,


Metamagic rods hold the essence of a metamagic feat but do not change the spell slot of the altered spell.

!!!

So... according to complete arcane, any metamagic that doesn't alter spell slots can be used with SLAs, which includes all sudden metamagic feats, all metamagic feats with +0 modification, and all metamagic rods?

Am I wrong here?

[Troacctid]

!!!

So... according to complete arcane, any metamagic that doesn't alter spell slots can be used with SLAs, which includes all sudden metamagic feats, all metamagic feats with +0 modification, and all metamagic rods?

Am I wrong here?
Again, DM discretion.

[RoboEmperor]

Again, DM discretion.

Under what grounds (other than rule 0) does the DM have to disallow metamagic rods on SLAs given the above RAW quotes? : D

Unless someone proves me wrong... THURBANE I LOVE YOU <3 <3 <3

[sorcererlover]

Thanks for posting everyone.

Dark Chaos Shuffle and Psychic Reformation are off limits so feats that boost SR are unavailable too.

Lower Spell Resistance is what I was looking for.

I'm gonna wait a day to see if someone says someonenoone11 is wrong, and then I'm gonna run it by my DM, and then I'll buy a lot of +CL items.

[Thurbane]

Under what grounds (other than rule 0) does the DM have to disallow metamagic rods on SLAs given the above RAW quotes? : D

Complete Arcane specifically calls out Sudden Metamagic as working with SLAs. You have drawn inferences from the above quotes that by extension all metamagic which doesn't modify spell slots will work with SLAs.

It's a decent argument, but I wouldn't exactly call in incontrovertible RAW.

I would still call it an "ask your DM" situation myself.

[RoboEmperor]

Complete Arcane specifically calls out Sudden Metamagic as working with SLAs. You have drawn inferences from the above quotes that by extension all metamagic which doesn't modify spell slots will work with SLAs.

Is it an inference though?

It gave the reason why sudden metamagic feats work while normal metamagic feats don't, kind of making it a general rule no?

If I told you that the reason CO2 puts out fires is because fire doesn't burn it and cuts off the oxygen supply to the fire, then anything that doesn't fuel the fire and cuts off the oxygen supply would work right? Like dumping sand or water. Just because it didn't specifically say sand and water can put out fires doesn't mean they can't.

is the argument I will be making to my DM.

In any case, <3 <3 <3 Thurbane.

[finaldooms]

just cause it bothers me..thurbanes's snip even says..Except as noted above .... which means there is a part above that in the book which says what does work..i feel like that is more than enough for a DM to say no when you go to argue that
in fact: ...i was guna c&p but i dont know how to do that out of the book without messing it up so..

it lists
combat casting
spell pen and greater spell pen ( epic can be infered safely)
weapon-like spell feats ( such as PBS or weapon focus)
Sudden meta magic

but ya..last i checked unless your the DM you cant just pick and choose what sounds best to you out of a book instead of using the whole thing

[RoboEmperor]

just cause it bothers me..thurbanes's snip even says..Except as noted above .... which means there is a part above that in the book which says what does work..i feel like that is more than enough for a DM to say no when you go to argue that

Forgive me if I sound stubborn and intentionally thickheaded, I do that sometimes and I believe that MIGHT happen to me right now because of this subject. But...


Other Metamagic Feats: Except as noted above, metamagic feats can’t generally be used to modify spell-like abilities or invocations.

They GENERALLY don't work BECAUSE most metamagic feats incur an increased spell slot cost. Which means metamagic feats that do NOT incur an increased spell slot cost (like energy substitution) do work. They fall under the non-generally category.

My argument is, the RAW said WHY Sudden Metamagic Works and WHY other metamagic don't work. So as long as everything else aligns with the WHY, it should work, is all I'm saying.

So my counterargument to you here is, Thurbane's snip doesn't say you can't use metamagic feats with SLAs (absolute), it says they generally can't be used (non-absolute, specific cases that do work exist). Besides you're using a Metamagic Rod instead of a feat here.

I'm not arguing Empower Spell works on SLAs (maybe it can with metamagic reducers reducing it to +0). I'm saying a metamagic rod of Empower works on SLAs for the SAME REASON why Sudden Empower Spell works on SLAs:
" don’t require modified spell slots"

[sleepyphoenixx]

Aren't there weapon qualities that suppress certain amounts of SR when they hit?

Shattermantle from CoS:Waterdeep. Every hit reduces SR by 2 for 1 round and it stacks. It's a +1 equivalent so pretty affordable.
And pretty sweet to have on the party archer, but even a melee with a normal number of attacks will already help a lot.

There's also the Undo Resistance feat (FC2) that does something similar for sneak attack/skirmish. You need a cold iron weapon but it lasts for an hour and reduces SR by 1 per SA/skirmish die.