Dumb skill points question

[liquidformat]

Once I have learned a skill say hide from a level of rogue, can I always treat it as a class skill from then on adding points to it as I please, or do I still have to pay cross class if I take a level of a class that doesn't have it listed like fighter?

I have seen this ruled either way depending on the DM, and I would like to know if this is actually up to dms or if a rule actually says it somewhere. I have always found it a bit screwy with dms who say I have to pay cross class cost for a skill I have already learned and put skill point into from another class, especially since they can't enforce the cross class skill limits anymore.

[tterreb]

In pathfinder a skill learned is always a class skill, but in 3.5 that's not the case. I've always looked at it as you didn't spend time developing that skill for the time between that level and the previous. I do agree it's a stupid rule, but it is a rule.

[heavyfuel]

I think the reason a skill you once had isn't always a class skill is because of how multiclassing works from the character perspective.

Let's take a look at a Rogue 3, on his way to get his 1st Wizard level. You reached your 3rd Rogue level, and you now start to study the arcane arts. You don't really have time to continue to practice how to open locks and operate mechanisms, you have to study, hard. You need to learn a ton of things about spells, writing your spellbook, material components, etc. Since you can't dedicate yourself to rogue stuff as well as you used to, these skills now become cross-class.


HOWEVER. I do think it's an unnecessarily complex rule and it doesn't exist in my games. Once you have a class skill it's yours forever as a class skill.

[Zaq]

When spending skill points, there's two things that you have to care about regarding class skills, and they're basically backwards, which is why it's confusing early on.

First, there's your skill cap, which basically limits how many ranks you can have in any skill at once. The relevant rule here is that if a skill has ever been a class skill for any of your classes, the cap is HD + 3. If a skill has never been a class skill for you up to this point, your cap is half that amount, so (HD + 3)/2.

Second, there's your skill cost, which determines whether one skill point buys you one rank or 1/2 of a rank. The relevant rule here is that if a skill is a class skill for this class that you're taking right now, one skill point buys one full rank, and if a skill is not a class skill for this specific level right now, then one skill point buys 1/2 of a rank.

Other things (notably feats, the most obvious of which is Able Learner) can mess with the skill cost side of things, but these are the basic rules.

[Gingaroth]

You have to pay 2 skill points for each rank of your current class’s cross-class skills whether they were previously class skills or not. However, if a skill is a class skill for any of your classes, your maximum ranks in that skill is your total character level +3. (PHB page 62)

If you are a human or a doppelganger, you can take the ‘able learner’ feat (Races of Destiny), and effectively treat such skills as class skills.

The feat ‘skill knowledge’ (Unearthed Arcana) lets you turn 2 of your current class skills into permanent class skills and has no prerequisites.

I think this rule is more a matter of game balance than of character perspective. Generally speaking, classes are either good at magic, good at combat, or good at skills & tricks, or they’re mediocre in a combination of those things. Making class skills from one class class-skils for all your character levels would be easily exploited to make ‘one-man-adventuring-party’ characters.

[BeerMug Paladin]

As others have stated, in 3.0/3.5 D&D, the cross-class limits on skill point spending applies for any skill not in the current class being leveled up in. So a fighter/wizard leveling up in fighter has to spend 2 skill points to gain a rank in spellcraft. Their maximum ranks in spellcraft is equal to (wizard-level + 3) + (fighter level / 2). Leveling in fighter always requires 2 skill points to rank up spellcraft.

In Pathfinder, all that is excised in favor of when something becomes a class skill, you can spend points in that skill up to the normal skill cap no matter which class you pick to level up in. So the amount of ranks of spellcraft a level 19 fighter level 1 wizard can have is 20, and it only takes 20 skill points to get there, assuming the character only put ranks in spellcraft after their first wizard level. (In Pathfinder, the skill cap is set at character level and there's a +3 proficiency bonus for skills the character has class training in. So it's roughly equivalent, the math involved is just easier.)

If I ran 3.5 D&D again I would probably house rule in the Pathfinder variant. Nobody at my table but me likes or understands math.

[Kelb_Panthera]

As others have stated, in 3.0/3.5 D&D, the cross-class limits on skill point spending applies for any skill not in the current class being leveled up in. So a fighter/wizard leveling up in fighter has to spend 2 skill points to gain a rank in spellcraft. Their maximum ranks in spellcraft is equal to (wizard-level + 3) + (fighter level / 2). Leveling in fighter always requires 2 skill points to rank up spellcraft.

This is inaccurate.

The max ranks in this example, as in any other is (total HD +3). That is (wizard-level + fighter-level +3). If this character were a thri-kreen then it would be (racial-HD + Fighter-level + wizard-level +3). What is a class skill for the current level only effects the skill point cost. If it was ever a class skill then the cap is HD +3. If it never has been, it's half that value. That's it.

[Falontani]

When spending skill points, there's two things that you have to care about regarding class skills, and they're basically backwards, which is why it's confusing early on.

First, there's your skill cap, which basically limits how many ranks you can have in any skill at once. The relevant rule here is that if a skill has ever been a class skill for any of your classes, the cap is HD + 3. If a skill has never been a class skill for you up to this point, your cap is half that amount, so (HD + 3)/2.

Second, there's your skill cost, which determines whether one skill point buys you one rank or 1/2 of a rank. The relevant rule here is that if a skill is a class skill for this class that you're taking right now, one skill point buys one full rank, and if a skill is not a class skill for this specific level right now, then one skill point buys 1/2 of a rank.

Other things (notably feats, the most obvious of which is Able Learner) can mess with the skill cost side of things, but these are the basic rules.

Quoting to point out that this is a perfect explanation of a rule that confuses many players and dms alike.
Remember, permanent stat boosts give you skill points only on level up, not retroactively. It is unclear if magical equipment count towards this or not by raw

[Bullet06320]

The feat ‘skill knowledge’ (Unearthed Arcana) lets you turn 2 of your current class skills into permanent class skills and has no prerequisites.


actually that feat is intended for use with the UA variant skill system


there are ways to make skills always a class skill, check this thread for them

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?491181-Alternative-ways-to-get-new-Class-skills

[Blue Jay]

HOWEVER. I do think it's an unnecessarily complex rule and it doesn't exist in my games. Once you have a class skill it's yours forever as a class skill.

I agree with this. From the perspective of a DM who's reviewing a new character sheet, it's so much easier to track the math when you don't have to toggle between "class skill" and "cross-class skill" states level-by-level. I also use a custom spreadsheet when building characters, and formatting the spreadsheet with toggle states like that is a hassle, so I love it when I don't have to do that. Especially since the only reason for the added complexity is to impose tighter restrictions that nobody's going to be happy with.

The same goes for Int boosts: I prefer to apply them retroactively, because then it makes the spreadsheet format cleaner, and it removes one possible source of confusion during the process of DM review.

Basically, when adding stricter limits to my players requires extra bookkeeping on my part, it never seems worth the effort. Things like multiclass penalties to XP, or the number of pages a spell takes in your spellbook, or modifiers that fluctuate and toggle, level-by-level... I don't want to have to put in extra effort just so I can be "meaner" to my players. If I can streamline my oversight process and end up giving my players a couple extra skill points at the same time, that's bound to be conducive to everybody's fun.

But of course, these are all house rules, and directly contradict RAW; so I guess it doesn't really answer the OP's question.

[rrwoods]

It is unclear if magical equipment count towards this or not by raw
While true, the rules text for Headband of Intellect explicates that you don't get skill points from its increase. I would imagine the lack of such text on any other Intelligence-boosting item is an oversight.