[PF/3.5e] Houserule idea for double-progression PrCs

[ezekielraiden]

So, I know most charop people hold Mystic Theurge and similar double-progression PrCs as generally not worthwhile unless you can get in early, to ensure you can get 9th level spells in at least one (and preferably both) classes. But early entry cheese is...well, frankly very cheesy, and a lot of DMs don't like it for good reason.

Could this be alleviated by explicitly forbidding all early-entry cheese, but giving dual-progression PrCs something like the following:

Twin Mastery (5th and 10th level): You have mastered the art of blending two different casting traditions. Choose two casting classes--one divine, one arcane--in which you have levels, excluding any prestige classes you may have. This choice must be made when you take your first level of Mystic Theurge(/Arcane Heirophant/etc.) and cannot be changed later. At levels 5 and 10, you gain new spells per day (and new spells known, if applicable) as though you had gained two levels in those casting classes, rather than just one as you normally would gain.

So, for example, a Sor 4/Dru 3/AH 5 casts as a (4+5+1)= 10th level Sorcerer and a (3+5+1) = 9th level Druid; a Sor 4/Dru 3/AH 10 casts as a 16th level Sorcerer and a 15th level Druid. Taking a further 3 levels of Mystic Theurge would thus give 19th level Sorcerer/18th level Druid spellcasting, missing 7 levels of Druid wildshape/animal companion. Wizard/Druids could take two levels of MT first, to qualify for the Arcane Heirophant BAB requirement, eventually ending up as a Wiz 3/Dru 3/MT 2/AH 10/MT+2 with (3+4+12) = 19th level spellcasting in both classes. Since early entry is banned, it's not possible to get this benefit from multiple dual-progression classes, and prestige classes explicitly can't receive it (preventing rapid-advancement PrC cheese).

In simpler terms, would it make dual-progression classes worthwhile if they still had their standard entry requirements, no cheese, but compensated for it with slightly boosted advancement after significant level investment?

[BowStreetRunner]

The default assumption with most Prestige Classes (PrCs) was that players would enter them at 6th level, after taking a minimum of 5 levels in base classes. Some (like Mystic Theurge) encourage at least 3 levels in both classes entering at 7th. Since the PrCs are no more than 10 levels, the player would finish with 4 or 5 more levels of single casting progression.

If you look at a basic Wizard/Cleric/Mystic Theurge with a 3/0 + 0/3 entry with 10/10 PrC progression, followed by 4/0 progression afterward you end up with a 17/13 caster which gets 9th and 7th level spells and, when compared to a 20/0 caster, is by no means bad at all.

The obsession with getting 9th level spells in both classes is understandable, but there really isn't anything about a class that can cast 9th level Wizard spells and 7th level Cleric spells that is particularly under-powered. Here, the Wizard 20 sacrifices 3 bonus feats, one 7th level spell, two 8th level spells, and three 9th level spells in exchange for a couple Domain powers, Turn Undead, slightly better overall BAB and Fort Saves and 37 cleric spells up to 7th level. It's a fair trade-off.

The problem I've seen most often is players who try to keep both casting progressions equal throughout, rather than focus on one and just treat the other as bonus casting. Those are more likely to end up maxing out at 8th level spells in both classes and sacrificing a great deal more power. With early entry removed, if you just focus on one of the classes as primary, you should still come out okay.

[Psyren]

PF Mystic Theurge actually has this, via the Mage Guild benefits Eclectic Training and Esoteric Training from Inner Sea Magic. You can use those as a model to build your own version. Using those, you can end up CL 17 on both sides for dual-9s.

Rather than let the class get them automatically, I would make them a feat tax (or two) that requires decently-high level casting on both sides of the theurge.

[OgresAreCute]

The default assumption with most Prestige Classes (PrCs) was that players would enter them at 6th level, after taking a minimum of 5 levels in base classes. Some (like Mystic Theurge) encourage at least 3 levels in both classes entering at 7th. Since the PrCs are no more than 10 levels, the player would finish with 4 or 5 more levels of single casting progression.

If you look at a basic Wizard/Cleric/Mystic Theurge with a 3/0 + 0/3 entry with 10/10 PrC progression, followed by 4/0 progression afterward you end up with a 17/13 caster which gets 9th and 7th level spells and, when compared to a 20/0 caster, is by no means bad at all.

The obsession with getting 9th level spells in both classes is understandable, but there really isn't anything about a class that can cast 9th level Wizard spells and 7th level Cleric spells that is particularly under-powered. Here, the Wizard 20 sacrifices 3 bonus feats, one 7th level spell, two 8th level spells, and three 9th level spells in exchange for a couple Domain powers, Turn Undead, slightly better overall BAB and Fort Saves and 37 cleric spells up to 7th level. It's a fair trade-off.

The problem I've seen most often is players who try to keep both casting progressions equal throughout, rather than focus on one and just treat the other as bonus casting. Those are more likely to end up maxing out at 8th level spells in both classes and sacrificing a great deal more power. With early entry removed, if you just focus on one of the classes as primary, you should still come out okay.

Sure, at level 20 you've got 9ths in one + some more stuff (nearly) for free, but up to that point you're sitting at a 3 level deficit most of the time. At level 17, when everyone else gets 9ths, you're sitting at 14/13, not even 8th level spells.