Would a 10 Fighter / 10 Wizard be viable?

[ImSAMazing]

Basically as the title says: let's say you play as a High Elf and decide to go 10 Champion and 10 Bladesinger (or another Arcane Tradition). Would that be a viable character in a lvl 20 party, or would he be next to useless?

[Dungeon-noob]

I don't know how good that would be, but if warrior wizard as an elf is what you're going for, is there a reason you're not using 20 bladesinger?

[CaptAl]

Sure. But you'll be replicating extra attack at some point. If you go EK for the fighter levels you can leverage the power of the SCAG cantrips with war magic, and still have a really powerful defense mechanism in eating slots to reduce the damage of aoe spells with Bladesinger 10 ability.

I feel like this character would make a powerful tank with lots of slots for shield, absorb elements, and self buffs. Probably not optimal, but certainly viable.

[Unoriginal]

They'd be viable. Hard to make a non-viable character in 5e.

That being said, you wouldn't have much exceptional things.


A 10/10 Wizard/Fighter would have slightly more magic than most half-caster (due to the Wizard's class features), and still quite a bit of martial prowesses, but in the end they'll be a bit squishy and not have much attacks for a lvl 20 martial and not that great at magic for a lvl 20 caster.

In other word, they'd be a Jack-of-All-Trades, Master of None. Which makes them a decent Gish.


On the other hand, if you go War Wizard and Champion, you could be pretty great at the "going all day, every day" kind of thing, a nice Initiative, and a pretty great AC.

[Quoxis]

Is it viable? Most likely, it’s difficult to build a really bad character in 5e.
Is it optimized? Far from it.
Seeing that fighter gets 3 attacks per round and wizards access to 6th level spells at level 11 respectively makes it better to go 11/9 in almost any case i can think of.
For a slower, yet higher slot level i‘d definitely take eldritch knight, which at thouse higher levels can also enhance the pure martial capabilities (lvl 7: make a bonus action attack if you use your action on a cantrip) - not having to decide between a weapon attack and a regular spell is huge on a gish imo, and while cantrips won‘t get you high damage, they scale to ok-ish damage and offer range and rider effects. 9 levels of EK count for three caster levels, so while you don’t get 7th level spells, you at least have the slots to upcast lower level spells (if you go 10/10 or EK9/Wiz11).

I‘d personally go EK 11/Abjurer 9 - full plate, shield and onehanded weapon of choice, three weapon attacks in the first round on up to three targets, shield spell as a reaction that also puts up abjurer’s ward for 20-ish hp guarding your life and concentration, next turn you throw a fireball or a mass control spell and laugh as your three hit opponents roll their saves with disadvantage, and then go on doing that or whatever else you want, you‘re versatile enough.

[ciarannihill]

Overall doing a Gish like this is fine, but you can do a more...efficient version IMO.

Eldritch Knight 12/War Wizard 8 seems more practical to me overall than Champion 10/Bladesinger 10 for a few main reasons: You get higher spell slots this way than with just Wizard 10 (gives you a 6th level slot), you get Extra Attack x2, you don't waste the Bladesinger's Extra Attack feature and you get the EK War Magic feature. Also gives you 6 total ASIs to work with, which is solid.

Seems fine, a good mixture of resource power and utility in Wizard and sustained damage from Eldritch Knight. Obviously it depends on what kind of adventure you're doing, but it seems reasonable, and this allows for a lot of variability depending on your other build decisions -- What fighting style and equipment loadout? Race? Background?

For example:
Githyanki (+2 Str, +1 Int) with 15 (17) Str / 8 Dex / 14 Con / 15 (16) Int / 10 Wis / 8 Cha
Heavy Armor + Greatsword w/ Great Weapon Fighting Style
Warcaster, Great Weapon Master, Heavy Armor Master [+1 Str], +2 Str, +2 Int, +2 Intand
High Elf (+2 Dex, +1 Int) with 8 Str / 15 (17) Dex / 14 Con / 15 (16) Int / 10 Wis / 8 Cha
Medium Armor + Longbow w/ Archery Fighting Style (Rapier and Shield for melee)
Sharpshooter, Medium Armor Master, Elven Accuracy [+1 Dex], +2 Dex, +2 Int, +2 Int
feel quite different in practice, and there are more variations you can play with than even that. And those are likely not optimized to the degree they potentially can be, plus there's tons of variation in what spells you select...



TL;DR: Yes, but making your build more efficient at selecting powerful features is going to be stronger than 10/10.

[CTurbo]

I like the EK/Abjur combo a lot.

Bladesinger would work well with Fighter but 10/10 split is rarely optimal for any combo. I'd at least go Fighter 11 for 3rd attack.

[ZenBear]

My favorite build is EK10/ABJ10. I don’t think the third attack at Fighter 11 is necessary when you have SCAG cantrips. Might edge out in damage, but for a S&B tank build it won’t be much. The SCAG cantrips with War Magic feels more gishy anyway. ABJ for that sweet barrier and roll high on Persuasion to convince your DM to allow the spell points variant rule to Shield/Absorb Elements for days.

[Willie the Duck]

Basically as the title says: let's say you play as a High Elf and decide to go 10 Champion and 10 Bladesinger (or another Arcane Tradition). Would that be a viable character in a lvl 20 party, or would he be next to useless?

Others have mentioned that 10/10 is a relatively pointless place to split (wizards not gaining a new level of spells at that point and fighters not getting an additional attack--those being the top notch benefits of the respective classes). EK's are great in gish builds, and if you go that route you should note that their level 7 ability is really useful, so you probably want to get that far, and because of how multi-classing with spell-casting works (round down, instead of up, like a pure EK) you also kinda-sorta want to end on a level divisible by 3 (although this is not a hard fact).

Although I love love love the Champion, given how well EK synergizes here, I'd suggest EK over it unless the entire point is to have a non-long-rest-recharging aspect to the character, based on what you know of your DM.

Regardless, we can't help you too much unless we know what your goals are. What do you want to play? A more-survivable wizard? A magic-enhanced fighter? A basic D&D-era style "Elf" who swings a sword and lobs fireballs? Depending on your answer, I'd suggest different ratios (or, frankly, a pure EK, bladesinger, war wizard, etc.).

[Unoriginal]

Maybe we should look at it from the other side: what are the best 10th level Fighter and Wizard class features, and which would justify missing out on the third attack or 6th level spells?

I feel like combining Cavalier and War Wizard would be pretty impressive, here.

[CTurbo]

My favorite build is EK10/ABJ10. I don’t think the third attack at Fighter 11 is necessary when you have SCAG cantrips. Might edge out in damage, but for a S&B tank build it won’t be much. The SCAG cantrips with War Magic feels more gishy anyway. ABJ for that sweet barrier and roll high on Persuasion to convince your DM to allow the spell points variant rule to Shield/Absorb Elements for days.


I agree I wouldn't go Fighter 11 on a EK/Abjur build. I'd stop at EK 6 or 7 which is a tough call because EK7 is awesome and Abjur 14 is awesome and you can't have both.

It's the Fighter/Bladesinger combo that I would possibly take to Fighter 11. But I could also see really wanting that Bladesinger 14 feature too.

Just depends on what balance you're looking for as mentioned above. A tougher than normal wizard or a more spell focused fighter.

[Galactkaktus]

To first answer your question you will probably still be viable.

That being said i really don't understand fighter 10 for the champion archetype 1 extra fighting style isn't really that valuble. There could be an argument for lv10 EK for eldritch strike but at that point isn't arcanetrickster 9 better for magical ambush since it's basically just as fast to setup or faster depending on if you can use cunning action to hide or not. The other way to do it is to go 11 fighter 9 wizard for 3 attacks. But 10/10 just seems wierd.

[MaxWilson]

It's the Fighter/Bladesinger combo that I would possibly take to Fighter 11. But I could also see really wanting that Bladesinger 14 feature too.

If you're a Fighter 11 you get very little benefit from being a Bladesinger 9 because you already have high AC via heavy armor and defense style and you already have multiple attacks. Might as well be an Enchanter 9 or War Wizard 9 or something instead.

[Specter]

It would be viable if you make it an EK. EK has two features that synergyze really well with casters: War Magic and Eldritch Strike.

War Magic lets you attack and cast at the same turn. All other fighter/wizard multis feel less wizardy because they don't have this. Plus, BB and GFB keep your damage competitive at higher levels, and with the load of cantrips Wizard gets you, you can strategize according to your needs.

Eldritch Strike makes your foes save at disadvantage after you attack them. Along with War Magic, your foes will be taking a lot more damage from your cantrips than any other Wizard's. You can also wreck any opponent once you figure out their weak saves, and use certain spells that would be bad for other Wizards (like Dominate Person).

[ZenBear]

Maybe we should look at it from the other side: what are the best 10th level Fighter and Wizard class features, and which would justify missing out on the third attack or 6th level spells?

EK 10 gives you Eldritch Strike, imposing disadvantage on saves against your spells on any target you hit with an attack. ABJ 10 gives you Improved Abjuration, granting proficiency to Counterspell and Dispel ability checks.

[ciarannihill]

Regardless, we can't help you too much unless we know what your goals are. What do you want to play? A more-survivable wizard? A magic-enhanced fighter? A basic D&D-era style "Elf" who swings a sword and lobs fireballs? Depending on your answer, I'd suggest different ratios (or, frankly, a pure EK, bladesinger, war wizard, etc.).

I think this is the crux of the question. What do you want to be the primary focus of your build and what is supplementing that focus? Are you a more magically inclined Gish, a heavily armored Wizard, a Fighter with some magical utility or something else? There quite a few reasonable ways to combine the Fighter and Wizard classes depending on your tastes and intended play patterns...

I recommended EK 12/War Wizard 8 earlier because that was my first inclination when seeing Fighter/Wizard is to be a Gish with some extra magical benefits, but if you want Fighter to supplement Wizard you wouldn't want to build it that way at all.

[Spectrulus]

My personal favorite is EK 8/Wiz 12, lots of ASI's, level 14 caster. 7th level spells. Pairing a javelin with a firebolt feels just as good as 2.5 attacks from GFB + attack. Also Blade Ward for resistance to physical + attack is good too. 10/10 is okay, but due to how ASI and class features roll altering the spread to be uneven works better in practice.

[the secret fire]

If you're going to make a fighter/wizard, Eldritch Knight is almost certainly the best way to go. A few things to note about the EK:

- the 3rd attack at 11th level doesn't play nice with War Magic. You end up having to choose between two attacks + cantrip damage or three attacks. These are roughly equivalent, meaning that the 3rd attack at 11th level is largely useless to an EK in melee (though it is still nice at range).

- Eldritch Strike is a powerful ability, but it can be difficult to set up, with enemies often dying, running, or otherwise being unavailable as targets of a follow-up spell after you whack them. It also kinda forces you into single target SoS spells, which are generally not the best in the game, though at least if you're a split class EK/Wizard you don't have to choose from only the EK's pitiful list of spells.

imo, 7th level is the best place to stop as an EK. You've got robust melee ability through War Magic, and you can also eventually get to 7th level spells as a Wizard. The most efficient EKs focus on Str over Dex, wear heavy armor, and wield two-handed weapons (which removes the necessity of taking the Warcaster feat, though it is still useful). EK/Wizards can make excellent tanks, especially if you choose Abjuration or War Magic as your Wizard subclass.

[Citan]

Basically as the title says: let's say you play as a High Elf and decide to go 10 Champion and 10 Bladesinger (or another Arcane Tradition). Would that be a viable character in a lvl 20 party, or would he be next to useless?
Hi!

Such a character would certainly not be useless at all.
From guts, my rating would be "good enough": after all, you could use some Wizard spells to buff you for fights (Tenser's Transformation (IIRC level 5 spell), Mirror Image, Haste, Shadow Blade...), while taking care of everything party may need as rituals outside, provided of course you search for extra spells.

So if you want to play this character, go for it. :)

Now, if you'd like to make a character much more powerful with only slight changes, I'd suggest a simple switch from Champion to Eldricht Knight.
The Eldricht Strike ability will make a perfect link between Fighter's reliable Extra Attack and Wizard's single-target / AOE debuff spells.
You may even alter the balance to 11 Fighter / 9 Wizard to get another Extra Attack to make you even better overall when you want to conserve resources or affect a small group of enemies.

[Arkhios]

TL;DR (just lazy to read what others have said):

Perfectly viable. Your Hit points might end up being a tad low-ish, but in the end, you'd basically be an Arcane Half-caster, with equal amount of spell slots compared to a paladin or ranger, and access to 5th level wizard spells. That's certainly nothing to be scoffed at. Your save DC for the spells wouldn't be any less effective as a full wizard's, because it relies on your character level (or more specifically, your proficiency modifier and spellcasting modifier, which are separate from your class progression). Of course, you'd be unable to up-cast any spells beyond 5th level, but I don't think that's a problem.

As for the Arcane Tradition, while I understand that Bladesinger is compelling for a wizard, getting extra attack twice is a bit lame. I'd probably take Abjuration, Evocation, or War Magic instead.

[ImSAMazing]

Others have mentioned that 10/10 is a relatively pointless place to split (wizards not gaining a new level of spells at that point and fighters not getting an additional attack--those being the top notch benefits of the respective classes). EK's are great in gish builds, and if you go that route you should note that their level 7 ability is really useful, so you probably want to get that far, and because of how multi-classing with spell-casting works (round down, instead of up, like a pure EK) you also kinda-sorta want to end on a level divisible by 3 (although this is not a hard fact).

Although I love love love the Champion, given how well EK synergizes here, I'd suggest EK over it unless the entire point is to have a non-long-rest-recharging aspect to the character, based on what you know of your DM.

Regardless, we can't help you too much unless we know what your goals are. What do you want to play? A more-survivable wizard? A magic-enhanced fighter? A basic D&D-era style "Elf" who swings a sword and lobs fireballs? Depending on your answer, I'd suggest different ratios (or, frankly, a pure EK, bladesinger, war wizard, etc.).

The basic D&D-era "Elf" is what I'm looking for. A character that seeks to hone both his magical and martial abilities and seeks to combine them both into one. In combat he might swing his sword to slay the dragon, but a moment later he might throw a bolt of lightning at the beast. Etc.

[Willie the Duck]

The basic D&D-era "Elf" is what I'm looking for. A character that seeks to hone both his magical and martial abilities and seeks to combine them both into one. In combat he might swing his sword to slay the dragon, but a moment later he might throw a bolt of lightning at the beast. Etc.
In that case, my suggestion is either:

High Elf Fighter(EK)7/Wizard(Evoker)13
starting STRx DEX15 CON14 INT16 WISx CHAx (xs are 8,10,12, as you see fit)
ASIs: Elven Accuraccy(+1 Dex), +4 Dex, +4 Int
End results: 20 in each primary stat. 2nd level EK spells, 7th level wizard spells. Can use War Magic to attack once, as well as us a cantrip (booming blade or firebolt/your fire-less backup) with +int to damage. Most of the rest of the powerful EK abilities take a lot more forethought and setup than the aesthetic you are discussing. War Wizard or spellsinger also are great, but also work best with lots of careful planning. I choose EK because War Magic really ups their martial combat output, meaning you can put in fewer fighter levels and still feel like a "fighter/mage" and not just a "wizard who plays around with a bow instead of cantrips during combats where they wouldn't waste a spell"

However, to get a pure, B/X BECMI "Elf," you could also go Fighter(Champion)11/Wizard (any)9, since those elves capped out at 5th level spells. This lets you get 3 attacks as a fighter, and two fighting styles (presumably archery and dueling).

[ImSAMazing]

In that case, my suggestion is either:

High Elf Fighter(EK)7/Wizard(Evoker)13
starting STRx DEX15 CON14 INT16 WISx CHAx (xs are 8,10,12, as you see fit)
ASIs: Elven Accuraccy(+1 Dex), +4 Dex, +4 Int
End results: 20 in each primary stat. 2nd level EK spells, 7th level wizard spells. Can use War Magic to attack once, as well as us a cantrip (booming blade or firebolt/your fire-less backup) with +int to damage. Most of the rest of the powerful EK abilities take a lot more forethought and setup than the aesthetic you are discussing. War Wizard or spellsinger also are great, but also work best with lots of careful planning. I choose EK because War Magic really ups their martial combat output, meaning you can put in fewer fighter levels and still feel like a "fighter/mage" and not just a "wizard who plays around with a bow instead of cantrips during combats where they wouldn't waste a spell"

However, to get a pure, B/X BECMI "Elf," you could also go Fighter(Champion)11/Wizard (any)9, since those elves capped out at 5th level spells. This lets you get 3 attacks as a fighter, and two fighting styles (presumably archery and dueling).
Why the Evoker though? I mean, what kind of careful planning does War Mage ask for?

[Specter]

The basic D&D-era "Elf" is what I'm looking for. A character that seeks to hone both his magical and martial abilities and seeks to combine them both into one. In combat he might swing his sword to slay the dragon, but a moment later he might throw a bolt of lightning at the beast. Etc.

Bladesinger (pure or EK/War Wizard is what you want.


Why the Evoker though? I mean, what kind of careful planning does War Mage ask for?

Probably because you mentioned a bolt of lightning before. But, if evoker doesn't appeal to you, the best 'generalistic' Wizard is Abjurer (extra HP is always good).

[djreynolds]

We fought Slaad the other day, sometimes spells are useless and it nice to have a weapon to lean on when cantrips fail. Bladesinger can swing a sword twice, throw up bladesong, turn on mirror image, and turn from back line caster to front line fighter in round.

But blade singer get 2 attacks and pairing it with fighter, even eldritch knight is perhaps wasteful from an optimizers stance.

I would play bladesinger x/ rogue x. This way bladesinger's extra attack at 6th isn't wasted.

Bladesinger goes will arcane trickster, swashbuckler is also nice (charisma can be left respectable)

[Willie the Duck]

Why the Evoker though? I mean, what kind of careful planning does War Mage ask for?

Regarding War Mage, I am AFB, but if the UA version is close to accurate, when to use Arcane Deflection, and using concentration spells (which would probably change your ASI/Feat selection) to capitalize on Durable Magic.

Evoker is the closest, in my mind, to the wizard of old, certainly the B/X era where artillery spells were great. Sure, one of its' main abilities is to wrap fireballs around your own front line, which old school MUs couldn't, but otherwise it's mostly +int to damage with your attack spells. Abjurer gets you extra hit points when you cast the shield and absorb elements spells you will be undoubtedly casting while fighting dragons with sword and spell. That's another good choice.

Here is the crux of my thinking: I chose to suggest going to EK 7 because that's a good break point for martial power. But you could actually go to level 11 and still get 5th level wizard spells (keeping the old school elf concept). That would get you the 10th level EK ability "Eldritch Strike: any creature you hit with a weapon attack has disadvantage on its next save it makes against a spell you cast before the end of your next turn." Technically speaking, that actually works well with the concept of "In combat he might swing his sword to slay the dragon, but a moment later he might throw a bolt of lightning at the beast. Etc.," but... that means that in round 1, you are lining up what you are doing in round two. I might be reading more into your comments than you meant, but it seems to me that that is more setting a fixed progression of subsequent actions than you were looking for. Setting up disadvantage on the spell save is actually more suited for the wizard who wants to be dropping the hold monsters or other battlefield control-esque spells than the lightning-bolt slingers.

The choice is yours, and if I misread what you are looking for, just ignore the advice. This thread has had lots of good advice, depending upon what you want to do with the character.