New Campaign - Fitting 20 levels into 10

[BumblingDM]

This should be the same for either 3.5 or Pathfinder -

I was thinking about how we never get to use those higher level class powers, and after playing an E6 game (Which was a lot of fun!) It got me thinking about what can I do as a DM.

Probably run the setting as low magic/minor tech.

What do people think about the idea of running a game that only goes to 10th level, but each level is 2 levels worth of class features.

Hit Dice, Base Attack, Skills, Spell Casting would cap at a 10HD character, but you would get your Capstone and what not at 10th.

I know some classes get some spell like abilities that are above those limits, but they usually have a 1/day or the DC would be something like 10+1/2HD(5)+ Key ability -

I am not entirely sure this is what I am going for, but I wanted know what people thought, are there glaring holes in the game? Is there a way to make this cool? Would people even want to do this?

Thanks for taking the time to read this and any input you give! Happy rolling!

[BowStreetRunner]

Pathfinder has a Slow, Medium, and Fast track for advancement in which the Fast track levels cost less than half what the slow track levels cost. You could, of course, extrapolate an entirely different XP progression in the same way to get an even faster track if you need it.

So my question is, why have double level progression and not just halve the XP requirement for each level?

[OgresAreCute]

Pathfinder has a Slow, Medium, and Fast track for advancement in which the Fast track levels cost less than half what the slow track levels cost. You could, of course, extrapolate an entirely different XP progression in the same way to get an even faster track if you need it.

So my question is, why have double level progression and not just halve the XP requirement for each level?

My understanding was that you max out at 10 HD, +10 BAB, CL 10 (so 5th level spells), etc but your class features progress more quickly so you get a 20th level class feature like a paladin's 5th smite evil :smallamused: at level 10. So classes with good class features would be more valuable since now you might actually get to use some of those features without playing for 5 years.

[BumblingDM]

That is correct Ogre, it was more to be able to use some of those higher level class features that so often get left out, while still keeping people in a certain fashion limited to more "mortal" HP and spells.

BowstreetRunner - I did see those, but its less about speeding or slowing the EXP gain, and more about using those post 10th level powers that seem to never come up.

[BowStreetRunner]

That is correct Ogre, it was more to be able to use some of those higher level class features that so often get left out, while still keeping people in a certain fashion limited to more "mortal" HP and spells.

BowstreetRunner - I did see those, but its less about speeding or slowing the EXP gain, and more about using those post 10th level powers that seem to never come up.I guess what I was trying to ask was why you want to limit your class levels. If you accelerate the gaining of levels they will get to those post 10th level powers faster. But why do you want to keep them limited to more "mortal" HP and spells?

Don't get me wrong - I'm actually a fan of E6/P6 and prefer lower level games. However, while I see the linear increase in HD, BAB, Base Saves, and Skill Ranks to be problematic, the other problem I have with high-level games is when PCs start regularly mind-raping formian queens, using a bunch of ice assassins, gating outsiders to cast multiple wish spells, and otherwise just going over the top with their spells and powers. Cutting off their advancement in HD isn't going to keep those things from happening, so I aim for lower level campaigns like E6. What you are proposing is going to make the martial PCs and skill monkeys much weaker and leave the casters still just as potent.

[Gullintanni]

I guess what I was trying to ask was why you want to limit your class levels. If you accelerate the gaining of levels they will get to those post 10th level powers faster. But why do you want to keep them limited to more "mortal" HP and spells?

Don't get me wrong - I'm actually a fan of E6/P6 and prefer lower level games. However, while I see the linear increase in HD, BAB, Base Saves, and Skill Ranks to be problematic, the other problem I have with high-level games is when PCs start regularly mind-raping formian queens, using a bunch of ice assassins, gating outsiders to cast multiple wish spells, and otherwise just going over the top with their spells and powers. Cutting off their advancement in HD isn't going to keep those things from happening, so I aim for lower level campaigns like E6. What you are proposing is going to make the martial PCs and skill monkeys much weaker and leave the casters still just as potent.

He's still limiting casters to 10 HD; therefore 5th level spells, max. No Gate, Mindrape or Ice Assassin access at those levels.

But at 10th level, a Barbarian would have his Mighty Rage and 6/day. This is more or less a straight buff for martials, given that most casters stop having class features at Level 1 or 2. :smallamused::smalltongue:

For the record, I don't see any problem with taking this approach for the most part - but be careful. There will be a few dysfunctions. One that jumps immediately to mind is the Truenamer - who gets Gate as its 20th level capstone. Some PrC capstones may be a little out of control as well. Be prepared to work with your players on a case by case basis to amend some of them. I'd probably replace the Truenamer's at-will Gate with a summoning spell of 5th or 6th level. Planar Binding comes to mind.

[BumblingDM]

I guess what I was trying to ask was why you want to limit your class levels. If you accelerate the gaining of levels they will get to those post 10th level powers faster. But why do you want to keep them limited to more "mortal" HP and spells?

Don't get me wrong - I'm actually a fan of E6/P6 and prefer lower level games. However, while I see the linear increase in HD, BAB, Base Saves, and Skill Ranks to be problematic, the other problem I have with high-level games is when PCs start regularly mind-raping formian queens, using a bunch of ice assassins, gating outsiders to cast multiple wish spells, and otherwise just going over the top with their spells and powers. Cutting off their advancement in HD isn't going to keep those things from happening, so I aim for lower level campaigns like E6. What you are proposing is going to make the martial PCs and skill monkeys much weaker and leave the casters still just as potent.


I would be limiting casters from getting above 5th level spells, if you think martial characters will fall behind so much, I could say the 2nd attack comes at 5/0 instead of 6/1 - so that full BA characters will end with 3 and everyone else would end with 2 - with multi classing possibly only getting 1

[BowStreetRunner]

He's still limiting casters to 10 HD; therefore 5th level spells, max. No Gate, Mindrape or Ice Assassin access at those levels.

But at 10th level Barbarian would have his Mighty Rage and 6/day. This is more or less a straight buff for martials, given that most casters stop having class features at Level 1 or 2. :smallamused::smalltongue:My bad. I completely missed that caster progression also halted at 10th level.

That is actually much more intriguing as an option.

[noob]

So caster classes that gets their caster advancement from individual class features instead of getting it from a single class feature and spell slots basically will get their level 20 powers at level 10?

[OgresAreCute]

So caster classes that gets their caster advancement from individual class features instead of getting it from a single class feature and spell slots basically will get their level 20 powers at level 10?

Only thing I can think of that does this is binder PrCs, and that would be very simple to fix.

[Gullintanni]

Only thing I can think of that does this is binder PrCs, and that would be very simple to fix.

Wildshaping may also be problematic. At 20th level, a Druid is supposed to be able to wildshape into a Huge elemental, but a Druid normally can't wildshape into a form whose HD exceed their own. Srd huge elementals have 16HD minimum, so you'd have to figure out how to resolve that dysfunction. Either the Druid is treated as a 20HD creature for the purpose of wildshaping; or they're limited to 8HD Large elementals.

Not difficult. Just be prepared to adjust accordingly.

[BumblingDM]

Ok interesting, thanks guys - these are sort of things I wanted to discuss, I probably will not use the binder classes or factotum, because they do get a bit wonky at higher levels.

Druid though - how would you think about handling that? I mean...turning into a 20hd creature for hours per level is a little too burly, but it feels a little rough if i keep them at 10hd...

unless its not, I mean there are some good 10HD creatures that come with lots of powers if I recall correctly.

[BowStreetRunner]

So caster classes that gets their caster advancement from individual class features instead of getting it from a single class feature and spell slots basically will get their level 20 powers at level 10?There are quite a few alternate mechanics that would need to be addressed:

Tome of Battle: Initiator Level is pretty similar to Caster Level, if you cap it at 10th then you max out at 5th level maneuvers. Do maneuvers and stances known/readied also cap here?
Magic of Incarnum: Meldshaper Level is a bit different than Caster Level. I would think you would cap Essentia Capacity, Soulmelds, Essentia, and number of Chakra Binds after you hit 10th.
Tome of Magic: Soul Binding is another mechanic that doesn't follow a model similar to Casting. Capping it at 10th gives a Maximum Vestige Level of 5th. But what about number of vestiges and pact augmentation?
Tome of Magic: Shadow Caster can cap Uses per Mystery per Day at 10th, giving 5th level mysteries the top spot. You'd still see the shift from using mysteries like spells, to SLAs to Supernatural abilities.
Tome of Magic: Truenamer would still have their Utterances Known capped at 10th, along with Maximum Utterance level known.

There are more, I know...but this gives an idea of what else would need to be clarified.

[BumblingDM]

So caster classes that gets their caster advancement from individual class features instead of getting it from a single class feature and spell slots basically will get their level 20 powers at level 10?


That is a really good point - So maybe if I stick to pathfinder setting instead I will have less of those fringe cases? I mean one or two powers that emulate the higher level stuff once per day is not that terrible, and gives that scary nova power unlike having 4 9th level spots or what not.

All around, do you think I should change attacks to start on the 5/0 instead of 6/1?

[Recherché]

If you do this with Pathfinder how would you want to treat Alchemist's bombs? They're class features that do more than 10d6 damage at level 20 and a decent bomber can get off at least 3 in a single round by level 10. With only 10 hit dice the destruction will be immense.

Also witch hexes. Level 20 witch hexes can give you 18HD minions and resurrection with no material components/no costs.

[Gullintanni]

Ok interesting, thanks guys - these are sort of things I wanted to discuss, I probably will not use the binder classes or factotum, because they do get a bit wonky at higher levels.

Druid though - how would you think about handling that? I mean...turning into a 20hd creature for hours per level is a little too burly, but it feels a little rough if i keep them at 10hd...

unless its not, I mean there are some good 10HD creatures that come with lots of powers if I recall correctly.

A good general rule for creating a more balanced 3.5 environment is that it's better to interpret rules so as to limit casters and be permissive with melee characters (Without being unfair to either - don't invent limitations where none exist except to remedy a serious dysfunction). Accordingly, I would cap the Druid off at 10HD for wildshape - you'd still be offering them access to elemental wild shaping (along with plants and tiny animals); which offers Druids some strong options, especially with splatbook support. This on top of what is arguably the strongest class in core to begin with means that you're probably still being fair to your players.

[Cosi]

This just seems like epicycles on "E10, but with buffs to martials". Why not do that instead? It's not like Fighters have some super-special ability they get at 20th -- it's just a feat!

[Gullintanni]

This just seems like epicycles on "E10, but with buffs to martials". Why not do that instead? It's not like Fighters have some super-special ability they get at 20th -- it's just a feat!

Bards, Druids and Wizards are core casters who get something out of this. Warlocks, Duskblades and Beguilers also continue to gain class features after 10th level. If PrC class features accrue at a 2:1 ratio, then even Sorcerers and Clerics can get nice things.

I'd play at this table. Sounds like fun.

[BumblingDM]

A good general rule for creating a more balanced 3.5 environment is that it's better to interpret rules so as to limit casters and be permissive with melee characters (Without being unfair to either - don't invent limitations where none exist except to remedy a serious dysfunction). Accordingly, I would cap the Druid off at 10HD for wildshape - you'd still be offering them access to elemental wild shaping (along with plants and tiny animals); which offers Druids some strong options, especially with splatbook support. This on top of what is arguably the strongest class in core to begin with means that you're probably still being fair to your players.

Yeah druid is a big one, but i'm actually responding because i'm happy to see someone else saying the " martials ask, casters tell" concept.

I want a bit more equality, i don't like tome of battle so much, but yeah I feel druids aren't ruined by this.

[BumblingDM]

If you do this with Pathfinder how would you want to treat Alchemist's bombs? They're class features that do more than 10d6 damage at level 20 and a decent bomber can get off at least 3 in a single round by level 10. With only 10 hit dice the destruction will be immense.

Also witch hexes. Level 20 witch hexes can give you 18HD minions and resurrection with no material components/no costs.

Oh snap! Alchemists not as worried about, because it reminds me of rogues, but witches I'll have to dig into that.

Hmm how would you handle the witch issue?

[Andor13]

Oh snap! Alchemists not as worried about, because it reminds me of rogues, but witches I'll have to dig into that.

Hmm how would you handle the witch issue?

https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/66243826.jpg

More seriously, I would handle it on a case by case basis. Life Giver may (or may not) be over the top, but I don't think Witch's Hut is going to break anyone's game.

[Calthropstu]

This will fix most issues:
Spells and powers that emulate spells or take the place of spells (such as hexes, the kinetecist powers, wildshape) all progress at normal.
Double progression for anything such as: sorcerer bloodline powers, oracle mysteries, prestige class boosts, monk abilities etc.
Make a judgement call on a case by case basis. If it feels op at lvl 10, kill it.

[Jack_Simth]

Bonded companions may also be problematic. A Dire Tiger at 8th (Druid Animal Companion off the 16th level list)?

[BumblingDM]

Bonded companions may also be problematic. A Dire Tiger at 8th (Druid Animal Companion off the 16th level list)?

HAHAHA! oh snap, good call Jack - I mean they were never OP a threat to begin with, so maybe this will help? but yeah, that is a good thing to keep in mind, pets...

[Eldariel]

HAHAHA! oh snap, good call Jack - I mean they were never OP a threat to begin with, so maybe this will help? but yeah, that is a good thing to keep in mind, pets...

Well, it can be a problem in that even by default, an optimised companion with buff spells is about on par with a fighter of equivalent level while being 100% expendable and taking no build resources...

[Dr_Dinosaur]

If numbers are the problem, why not do “e10” but compress the 20-leve acquisition of new features into those 10 without changing scaling?

For example, Unchained Rogue (PF) would gain Finesse Training, Sneak Attack 1d6, Trapfinding, Evasion, and a Rogue Talent at 1st level but would still only gain Sneak Attack and Danger Sense improvements every odd/third level respectively, capping at 5d6 and +3 at 9th level without feats.
A Fighter would likewise get 2 bonus feats and Bravery at 1st but Bravery caps at +3.

This makes each level far more impactful but restricts number scaling from getting too out of hand, right?

[BumblingDM]

That is an interesting idea Dr. Dinosaur - would take a lot of legwork to check on all the things that would have to be adjusted, there is a lot of merit to your suggestion.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

That is an interesting idea Dr. Dinosaur - would take a lot of legwork to check on all the things that would have to be adjusted, there is a lot of merit to your suggestion.

I’d suggest treating pcs as 1.5x their level for CR, similar to how I’ve seen gestalt handled. They’re getting abilities twice as fast but their numbers don’t advance any faster than normal.

Some things that might need to be looked at in PF are
* Fighter 1 being an even better dip now that it gives two feats and +1 vs fear. If that’s a problem I suggest replacing one feat with Combat Stamina.
* Paladin likewise now grants Divine Grace at 1st level. The Chosen One archetype bumps this back if you’re worried about that.
* Sorcerers/Oracles get a single spell of 6th-9th levels despite their spell slots capping at 5th. If you allow the 3.5 Versatile Spellcasting feat and they can figure out how to get enough slots to burn, they’re capable of unparalleled single feats of magic, though without a 3rd Party feat I can’t figure out how to get more than one 8th-level spell per day with VS.
* Accomplished Sneak Attacker is basically mandatory if you have SA. It lets you cap at 6d6!

I’m less familiar with 3.5 these days, but Swashbuckler might finally be worth looking into as the main class of a Daring Outlaw build, and Warlocks, while still not great at damage, rapidly build an impressive arsenal of invocations for lots of utility.

[PhantasyPen]

Well now, I quite like this idea, and I'm totally about to try this for a 3.5 game :tongue:

For druids, if you don't want wild shape and animal companion problems, may I suggest you have them use the Shapechanger ACF from Player's Handbook II?

Oh, how would you handle classes like the Duskblade or the Bard with this ruleset that only get up to 5th/6th-level spells normally? Would you condense their spell progression to follow the normal rate so they still get their highest-level spells or would you only allow them to get 3rd's?

[Tajerio]

Well now, I quite like this idea, and I'm totally about to try this for a 3.5 game :tongue:


Same here. The last campaign I ran my players got up to about level 18, and it was all just a bit too over-the-top for us. We thought about E6 but that seemed too limiting. But this might be the sweet spot.

Great idea, OP.

P.S. I also think Dr. Dinosaur's remark about treating PCs as 1.5x level for CR purposes is probably going to be a good guideline.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

For druids, if you don't want wild shape and animal companion problems, may I suggest you have them use the Shapechanger ACF from Player's Handbook II?
I suppose you could houserule Wild Shape uses per day to be gained more like PF Barbarian Rage rounds, in that gaining them is treated as a single scaling feature rather than seemingly being granted separately. A Druid under that ruling would still have max 4 uses per day and a 10th-level Animal Companion, which is the expected "numbers" for a 10th-level Druid, and that's what I'm looking at mostly.


Oh, how would you handle classes like the Duskblade or the Bard with this ruleset that only get up to 5th/6th-level spells normally? Would you condense their spell progression to follow the normal rate so they still get their highest-level spells or would you only allow them to get 3rd's?
As for 5th/6th level casters, keep in mind that Wizards (the gold standard of arcane magic) cap out at 5th level spells in this variant, meaning that giving the Duskblade its full progression as an exception would mean it was a Full BAB Wizard with actual class features, suddenly one of the best classes in the game. As cathartic as I'm sure that would be for gish fans (hi), I'd prefer to keep things honest and limit them to their 10th-level casting.

Duskblades do also qualify for Versatile Spellcasting though, so (assuming I understand this correctly) if you can track down some 4th or 5th level Duskblade spells, you can learn them and have enough slots to fuel 1-2 novas a day. Not something you throw around casually, but good to have in your pocket!

Edit: The e10 style of this is one of my favorite recent ideas for a gameplay variant, but for those who do want to advance past 10, may I recommend the following optional addendum?
Under this version, normal character classes are still "crunched" into 10 levels. But you know what also has 10 levels? Most prestige classes. As such, upon reaching enough XP/Story Progression to attain 11th level under this version, characters start gaining levels in PrCs instead of base classes. They may multiclass between them, but must qualify as normal.

[PhantasyPen]

As for 5th/6th level casters, keep in mind that Wizards (the gold standard of arcane magic) cap out at 5th level spells in this variant, meaning that giving the Duskblade its full progression as an exception would mean it was a Full BAB Wizard with actual class features, suddenly one of the best classes in the game. As cathartic as I'm sure that would be for gish fans (hi), I'd prefer to keep things honest and limit them to their 10th-level casting.

Duskblades do also qualify for Versatile Spellcasting though, so (assuming I understand this correctly) if you can track down some 4th or 5th level Duskblade spells, you can learn them and have enough slots to fuel 1-2 novas a day. Not something you throw around casually, but good to have in your pocket!

Just pointing out this wouldn't work for the Psychic Warrior or Paladin though. Actually for paladins it might be best to just give them full spellcasting in this variant I think. Anyone have a different idea?




Edit: The e10 style of this is one of my favorite recent ideas for a gameplay variant, but for those who do want to advance past 10, may I recommend the following optional addendum?
Under this version, normal character classes are still "crunched" into 10 levels. But you know what also has 10 levels? Most prestige classes. As such, upon reaching enough XP/Story Progression to attain 11th level under this version, characters start gaining levels in PrCs instead of base classes. They may multiclass between them, but must qualify as normal.

This is cleaner than what I was planning to do for prestige classes, so I think this might work.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Just pointing out this wouldn't work for the Psychic Warrior or Paladin though. Actually for paladins it might be best to just give them full spellcasting in this variant I think. Anyone have a different idea?
I had totally forgotten Paladins’ weird situation. I usually use Spheres of Power magic and/or a non-casting archetype. Sorry about that.

You could always just shift the level that Paladins/Rangers/PsyWars get their casting/manifesting from 4th to 1st. The lack of progression past 17th doesn’t matter unless you’re using the Prestige Paragon thing, and most prcs aimed at them don’t progress casting at every level even then

[PhantasyPen]

Actually, going back to the Prestige Paragon thing, should prestige classes be condensed as well (so a 10-level prestige class only has 5 levels) under this variant? But then comes the question of what to do with PrC's with less or more than 10 levels, such as the Prestige Paladin, True Necromancer, or the Tempest PrC.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Actually, going back to the Prestige Paragon thing, should prestige classes be condensed as well (so a 10-level prestige class only has 5 levels) under this variant? But then comes the question of what to do with PrC's with less or more than 10 levels, such as the Prestige Paladin, True Necromancer, or the Tempest PrC.

They keep the same number of levels. The idea was that a single-classed character could go 10/10 with an appropriate PrC, though as noted you can still take shorter ones and multiclass between them. Level 10 is just the last time you’re allowed to take non-PrC levels here

[BumblingDM]

Wow, these are a lot of cool ideas.

That PrC one - that is really neat, and gives some cool chances to get unique powers.

For the Druid - I personally always like to use the ACF where you get favored enemy and monk speed for your wild shape - so my player would probably take that.

I think just saying 5th level spells are the highest you can cast is kind of fine, let the ranger/paladin get their full list, I mean, those spells rarely seem to be game breaking.