Please help me understand LA vs. ECL vs. Hit Dice. (D&D 3E/3.5)

[inexorabletruth]

Every time I think I've got it, I find something that confuses me again.

My wife is running a level 1 campaign, and I want to Taer (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Taer) from Unapproachable East, pg. 14. Not to be confused with the Pathfinder Taer.

It's got a level adjustment of +1, an ECL of 3+Class Level, and 2 hit dice.

I thought that LA was the thing you have to pay attention to... like it's your level tax. And in higher level campaigns, it doesn't cause much of a problem. If this were a Level 5 campaign, and I were playing something with a +1 LA, I'd just build a level 4 whatever and call it a day.

But it gets a little hairier at Level 1.

I'm assuming that, due to the LA, I can't take a class level, so I'm just a Taer. However, at level 2, I can take my first class level to become a level 1 character (right?), but that's where ECL becomes a problem, because my ECL will be 4 (3+Class Level), which I'm worried will make him an illegal character. And also, how does the HD play in? The 2 HD come from essentially giant levels. So does he already have 2 levels of giant? Do I need to consider those as levels? If so, is it even possible to downlevel that to a level one character? And if I can, does that mean I have to take a monster level at creation, another monster level at level 2, then no level at level 3, then a class level at level 4? That sounds ridiculous, because this is supposed to be a player race in the book. I just wanted to play as a talking gorilla who knows kung fu.

This is especially important, because 3 of the other players in the campaign are new to D&D, and I don't want to cheat, overshadow them, or become a Mary Sue. My wife's the DM, and she runs a pretty flexible game, but I don't want to lean on that and make it look like she's playing favorites either, so I'm taking it upon myself to put cuffs on my build limitations.

So... how can I legally build a level 1 Taer, and take my class level at level 2?

[Zombimode]

Every time I think I've got it, I find something that confuses me again.

My wife is running a level 1 campaign, and I want to Taer (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Taer) from Unapproachable East, pg. 14. Not to be confused with the Pathfinder Taer.

It's got a level adjustment of +1, an ECL of 3+Class Level, and 2 hit dice.

I thought that LA was the thing you have to pay attention to... like it's your level tax. And in higher level campaigns, it doesn't cause much of a problem. If this were a Level 5 campaign, and I were playing something with a +1 LA, I'd just build a level 4 whatever and call it a day.

But it gets a little hairier at Level 1.

I'm assuming that, due to the LA, I can't take a class level, so I'm just a Taer. However, at level 2, I can take my first class level to become a level 1 character (right?), but that's where ECL becomes a problem, because my ECL will be 4 (3+Class Level), which I'm worried will make him an illegal character. And also, how does the HD play in? The 2 HD come from essentially giant levels. So does he already have 2 levels of giant? Do I need to consider those as levels? If so, is it even possible to downlevel that to a level one character? And if I can, does that mean I have to take a monster level at creation, another monster level at level 2, then no level at level 3, then a class level at level 4? That sounds ridiculous, because this is supposed to be a player race in the book. I just wanted to play as a talking gorilla who knows kung fu.

This is especially important, because 3 of the other players in the campaign are new to D&D, and I don't want to cheat, overshadow them, or become a Mary Sue. My wife's the DM, and she runs a pretty flexible game, but I don't want to lean on that and make it look like she's playing favorites either, so I'm taking it upon myself to put cuffs on my build limitations.

So... how can I legally build a level 1 Taer, and take my class level at level 2?



Your racial hit dice are equivalent to levels. In essence, you have "levels" in your "race class".
Thus, your effective character level is: 2 (RHD) + all class levels + 1 (the additional LA)

To your question: no, a Taer is always at least a "level" 3 character.

[inexorabletruth]

*sigh*

Ok... fair enough. Back to the drawing board.

[flappeercraft]

Well there is Savage Species, if you can get a racial class made for the Taer.

[Ramza00]

*sigh*

Ok... fair enough. Back to the drawing board.

Flavorwise you want to be something like a Taer and have stats with high strength, con, low int and cha? Plus a resistance / immunity to the cold? I ask for those things are possible more or less with ECL 1 if you choose the right races, templates, and feats.

Your Wife the DM can reflavor and say you are a hairy beast man that looks like this.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/2/2d/Taer.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20140424021759

What do you like / want about the Taer?

[aimlessPolymath]

Where published content fails, homebrew can provide, especially if you can talk to your DM and work something out. As written, the Taer probably shouldn't have LA+1, as its benefits are dubious.

I suggest bringing something like this to your DM:
http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=532.0

Claws and Fearsome at level 1, Imp. Grab and Pounce (or talk to your DM about cold resist) at level 2, then exit the class and start taking regular levels at level 3.

[inexorabletruth]

In all honesty, I wanted a WIS/DEX boost monkey or other simian. I'm channelling Beast from X-Men, Gorilla Grod from DC, or even the Monkey King from Asian legend.

[Goaty14]

In all honesty, I wanted a WIS/DEX boost monkey or other simian. I'm channelling Beast from X-Men, Gorilla Grod from DC, or even the Monkey King from Asian legend.

I swear that there is something like this in Oriental Adventures. Spiritfolk, IIRC?

[Feantar]

Every time I think I've got it, I find something that confuses me again.

My wife is running a level 1 campaign, and I want to Taer (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Taer) from Unapproachable East, pg. 14. Not to be confused with the Pathfinder Taer.

It's got a level adjustment of +1, an ECL of 3+Class Level, and 2 hit dice.

I thought that LA was the thing you have to pay attention to... like it's your level tax. And in higher level campaigns, it doesn't cause much of a problem. If this were a Level 5 campaign, and I were playing something with a +1 LA, I'd just build a level 4 whatever and call it a day.

But it gets a little hairier at Level 1.

I'm assuming that, due to the LA, I can't take a class level, so I'm just a Taer. However, at level 2, I can take my first class level to become a level 1 character (right?), but that's where ECL becomes a problem, because my ECL will be 4 (3+Class Level), which I'm worried will make him an illegal character. And also, how does the HD play in? The 2 HD come from essentially giant levels. So does he already have 2 levels of giant? Do I need to consider those as levels? If so, is it even possible to downlevel that to a level one character? And if I can, does that mean I have to take a monster level at creation, another monster level at level 2, then no level at level 3, then a class level at level 4? That sounds ridiculous, because this is supposed to be a player race in the book. I just wanted to play as a talking gorilla who knows kung fu.

This is especially important, because 3 of the other players in the campaign are new to D&D, and I don't want to cheat, overshadow them, or become a Mary Sue. My wife's the DM, and she runs a pretty flexible game, but I don't want to lean on that and make it look like she's playing favorites either, so I'm taking it upon myself to put cuffs on my build limitations.

So... how can I legally build a level 1 Taer, and take my class level at level 2?

ECL = LA + RHD + CHD
ECL: Effective Character Level
LA: Level Adjustment
RHD: Racial Hit Dice
CHD: Class Hit Dice <- This term doesn't exist per se, just using it here as an indicator of class levels. Example:

A Vampiric Minotaur 3rd level barbarian:
Vampire LA: +8
Minotaur LA: +2
Thus, total LA: +10
Minotaur RHD: 6
Barbarian CHD: 3
So, a Vampiric Minotaur 3rd level Barbarian has an ECL = 10 + 6 + 3 = 19.

You might also notice that when LA goes over 2 or maybe three, it becomes utterly insane.

[Covenant12]

flappeercraft has the RAW answer. Savage Species racial progression, which technically means homebrew. At ECL you will no longer be homebrew, its just getting there.

Something like:

Level 1: +2 Str, -4 int, -2 Cha. Cold subtype. Languages: Common, Giant. Giant type, 1d8 HD, +0 BAB, +2/+0/+0 saves. Secondary bite attack. +4 racial hide in snow. Proficient with greatclubs and longspears.
Level 2: +4 Str (total) +2 Con, -4 int, -2 Cha. Still 1d8 HD. 2 Slam attacks. Climb speed 30'. +1 NA.
Level 3: 2d8 HD, BAB +1, saves +3/+0/+0. +2 NA (total)

This is a strict rules answer, and frankly its weak. A core orc barbarian is massively better, frankly I think its better than Taer if it were +0 LA. Loss of BAB, no skills, poor saves, there are cheaper ways to get 2 attacks+bite. Climb speed and +2 NA are nice, but I'd definitely prefer orc, much less water orc.

[Fizban]

In all honesty, I wanted a WIS/DEX boost monkey or other simian. I'm channelling Beast from X-Men, Gorilla Grod from DC, or even the Monkey King from Asian legend.


I swear that there is something like this in Oriental Adventures. Spiritfolk, IIRC?
Vanara from Oriental Adventures: int and wis with str penalty, though the dragon mag 3.5 update removes those if you want to use it. No LA. Also has climb speed and some skill bonuses.

Hadozee from Stormwrack: dex with cha penalty, glide speed, also no LA. Bonus on balance and climb checks but that's it, and their glide never upgrades to flight like most other "glide" options.

Feral Gargun: 2HD and +2 LA, str dex and con at cost of int and cha, powerful build and claws, has a savage progression in the book already.

Wildren: from Planar Handbook, looks like a monkey but is apparently a badger-person. LA +1, main draw is the burrow speed so probably not what you're looking for (high con, reduced dex and cha, and an insultingly short rage-like).

Player's Guide to Faerun gives a penalty that you can apply to characters who only have LA +1 to play them at 1st level, but that's all the monkey-likes I can think of and the only one that fits is a badger.

It's entirely possible there's a web article somewhere that has an Official Savage Progression for Taer, but while the general 3.5 archives come up on google searches just fine, the Forgotten Realms content was under a different path and basically never does. Covenant's progression looks perfectly fine though, and it's cheaper than Feral Gargun.

If you've got a bunch of newbies then you shouldn't need to worry much about a Taer overshadowing them. +4 str/2 natural weapons/2 RHD/+1 LA is pretty common, and compare just fine to a relatively basic melee build. The two natural weapons with full attack bonus and full strength to damage is actually the biggest thing at low levels, since a TWFer has to take a penalty and BAB 6 and Haste are a long way off. Once you reach class levels you will have some noticeable advantages over the others unless their builds/classes have some significant features online pretty early, but if you play it cool rather than immediately launching into a hardcore build you should be just fine.

Edit: ah, they've got slam/slam/bite, that's a bit more actually, since even if you give up the slams you've still got a free bite attack that other characters don't match (unless someone's playing a Darfellan). Still, not any worse than a Lizardfolk, who effectively trades the climb speed and 2 points of strength for a massive AC boost. I'd recommend sticking with primitive gear for the first level or two if it looks like your AC and attacks might be too good.

[Crichton]

Vanara from Oriental Adventures: int and wis with str penalty, though the dragon mag 3.5 update removes those if you want to use it. No LA. Also has climb speed and some skill bonuses.




Got an issue number for the Dragon Mag update on Vanara? Thanks!

[Fizban]

#318. It's good stuff.